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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 15:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.
But ok give me a day and iŽll be back with the info.
I've also seen no evidence that El in Hell was intended to permanently sideline Elminster. Seriously, before making assertations like this, you really should have proof on hand. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 16:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!
That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?
I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back? |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 18:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!
That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?
I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?
Nope. It's the assertation that WotC caved in to protests and brought Bane back. The biggest complaint I've seen about the whole thing is that we don't have much more than a blurb to explain it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 18:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.
But ok give me a day and iŽll be back with the info.
Probably like you, my first language isn't English, so I use a software like Word when I post a message on a forum to ensure myself that at least my basic spelling is correct... |
Edited by - Skeptic on 14 Dec 2006 18:30:30 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 21:34:08
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| I am a huge fan of Cyric. Loved following his life and ascent to the position as deity in the avatar series. So i of course voted for the prince of lies. And let me add that i am not happy at all with his loss of the position as god of the dead. I think Kelemvor, as a person, is way to soft and emotional to fit my picture of the lord of death. But i will admit that it is just my personal view of it. I can see how he fits the role, i just dont like it. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Ulicus
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 22:54:52
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I also have a "Bane Impersonating Theory" (I adopted it from someone else) only it's not Xvim doing the impersonating but Cyric. I figure that Cyric finally killed Xvim sometime after regaining his sanity and, realising that the ex-Banites would never accept him as Cyric, he adopted the role of a resurrected Bane. It's not exactly far fetched for the god of illusions and Prince of Lies.
Ao wanted Bane dead. He wouldn't just let him come back.
However, the best thing about this theory is imagining the expression on Fzhoul's face when he dies and meets his God... |
"Bane" = "Xvim" = Cyric, Prince of Lies |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 23:36:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.
But ok give me a day and iŽll be back with the info.
What rumors?
As it is, I think this would have been something Ed had mentioned, or at least told us after the release of Elminster in Hell, in his replies here at Candlekeep. And yet, he said nothing.
I'd prefer a source for this.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 23:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!
That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?
I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?
Nope. It's the assertation that WotC caved in to protests and brought Bane back. The biggest complaint I've seen about the whole thing is that we don't have much more than a blurb to explain it.
That, and that there should be a novel published about the event.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 00:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulicus
I also have a "Bane Impersonating Theory" (I adopted it from someone else) only it's not Xvim doing the impersonating but Cyric. I figure that Cyric finally killed Xvim sometime after regaining his sanity and, realising that the ex-Banites would never accept him as Cyric, he adopted the role of a resurrected Bane. It's not exactly far fetched for the god of illusions and Prince of Lies.
Ao wanted Bane dead. He wouldn't just let him come back.
However, the best thing about this theory is imagining the expression on Fzhoul's face when he dies and meets his God...
I don't think that Ao wanted any particular god dead. If we assume that Bane, the real Bane, came back as the sourcebooks state, he couldn't do it if Ao didn't want it to happen. As Wooly stated earlier, Ao wanted all of the gods to remember who was in charge, and what he gave them their portfolios for.
I doubt its Cyric impersonating Bane, since in order to pull this off he would have to either imprison/destroy Xvim, and he failed to imprison Xvim before Xvim managed to steal a bunch of followers from Cyric. Its just my take, but I think that it would be difficult for Cyric to pull off.
As far as the gods and their motivations go, I think its interesting that it appears that there may have been more going on than just "lets steal the Tablets of Fate, rewrite them to make ourselves more powerful, and RULE THE UNIVERSE." Its pretty clear from the Shadows of the Avatar Trilogy that Bane suspected what might happen if they messed with the Tablets of Fate, and was gambling that he could use the situation to his betterment, and specifically had plans to steal power from/get some kind of power over Mystra.
In fact Mystra dying may have been for the best, because who knows what Bane managed to do to her while he had her imprisoned?
I can't specifically cite any source for this, but I also suspect that Myrkul may have been "in" on the Tablets of Fate "heist" because he wanted to see if there was any clue about his impending doom as the Dusk Lord, and if there was any way to avoid it (who knows, perhaps he found SOMETHING on the tablets that let him shunt himself into the Crown of Horns, so in the end he got a bit of what he was looking for).
This would leave Bhaal as the only one in on the "heist" that literally just wanted the tablets to make himself more powerful, and no offence, but I can see Bhaal as being straightforward enough to take the plan at face value, especially if he was convinced it would benefit him.
The idea that they had alternate plans going also synchs up with what Wooly was saying about the theft of the Tablets being the last straw, not the only reason for the Time of Troubles. The gods were so busy trying to jockey for position, and acting directly against one another, that they weren't promoting their portfolios among mortals nor were they acting more subtly with mortals as their proxies and agents. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 08:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!
That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?
I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?
Nope. It's the assertation that WotC caved in to protests and brought Bane back. The biggest complaint I've seen about the whole thing is that we don't have much more than a blurb to explain it.
Ah ok, I see. Personally I havent seen the complaints at all, but that does not mean that they arent there, but i think that the complaints should be sent in enormous volume for the editors to change realms events. As far as i know it has not happened before. |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 19:17:57
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I have no doubt there were complaints (there are always complaints, are there not?). But Victor, I do agree that it's best not to assume that the complaints were the main motivation for WotC's decisions unless there is proof.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ebonshine
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 22:17:32
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I voted for Cyric.
A definite step up from all he replaced and bane should have stayed gone in my opinion. I'm glad Bhaal has stayed gone and I like Myrkul's present situation. Xvim had potential that was never explored.
Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010214c
Specifically what Mr. Baker said:
Rich Baker: Cyric isn't nuts anymore. He's still not a nice guy, but the insanity engendered by his reading of TheCyrinishad and his efforts to absorb too many powerful portfolios has passed. Watch out for a ruthless, calculating, and more subtle Cyric as the campaign setting moves forward.
Cyric, he states, is subtle, ruthless, and calculating... not exactly synomymous with psycho, crazy, or stupid. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 23:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine
Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.
What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2006 : 01:00:56
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Eh...I think Cyric acts like a spoiled brat, but that's just my opinion.  I think Kelemvor makes a good god of the dead; if I was stuck in that grim ol' place, I'd not want to be stuck with Myrkul or Cyric!  |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2006 : 02:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine
Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.
What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.
I don't dispute what Rich said. Cyric did appear to be much more sane at the end of the Crucible, but to support what Wooly said, other than the fact that he appeared to be much more lucid at the end of that novel, we haven't seen much to show HOW this lucidity has changed him, either evinced by Cyric himself or through a refocusing of the church devoted to him.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2006 : 04:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine
Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.
What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.
I don't dispute what Rich said. Cyric did appear to be much more sane at the end of the Crucible, but to support what Wooly said, other than the fact that he appeared to be much more lucid at the end of that novel, we haven't seen much to show HOW this lucidity has changed him, either evinced by Cyric himself or through a refocusing of the church devoted to him.
Exactly. You can tell me all day long that he's changed, but until I see it for myself, I'm not buying it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2006 : 09:26:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Many pepol complained when Bane diead, thats whey he did come back.
I still want something to back this up. Many people have issued many complaints about changes in the Realms, with absolutely no change at all. We have unexplained retcons by the bucketfull, a horde of Returns, the RSE of the month trend, the whole Great Wheel/Great Tree schism... All of these things have generated complaints with little effect. How can you say that people complaining about Bane's death caused TPTB to bring him back? I've seen no data backing that up; in fact, I'd never even heard that until you said it. I've not even seen all that many people complain about the death of Bane...
Okay i give up for now, i cant find my proof, but i know itŽs out there. I am not giving up, i made a thread on WOTC Messege bord, about this issue.
Until i get my proof... Sorry,
But iŽll be back  |
Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571
Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
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Ebonshine
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 23:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine
Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.
What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.
I don't dispute what Rich said. Cyric did appear to be much more sane at the end of the Crucible, but to support what Wooly said, other than the fact that he appeared to be much more lucid at the end of that novel, we haven't seen much to show HOW this lucidity has changed him, either evinced by Cyric himself or through a refocusing of the church devoted to him.
Exactly. You can tell me all day long that he's changed, but until I see it for myself, I'm not buying it.
One of the designers of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has come right out and said that he is no longer insane, in other words stating your opinion of him is incorrect... and that is not good enough for you? I really don't think there is anything else that can be said. Rich Baker states directly in that quote that Cyric is no longer insane and you don't believe it.
Are you this way when Ed Greenwood states something too that is not in a published depiction like he does regularly on this site through the Hooded One? You refuse to believe it until you "see it for yourself" whatever that may mean? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 23:53:03
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| I think they mean that we are TOLD Cyric is no longer insane, but they see no real evidence of that with regards to Cyric's actions (ie. "actions speak louder than words"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 00:24:12
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Sorry, I'll believe Ed over Rich, especially since Ed has said, at least four times this year, that Cyric is still crazy/insane. So, when the sourcebooks show us that that isn't the case, I'll believe Rich.
Oh yeah, for the record, I'd even disbelieve Ed if sourcebooks/novels/etc say something different then what he says. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 21 Dec 2006 00:31:42 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 00:26:50
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You know guys, there are different degrees of being insane...
Just trying to find some middle ground here. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 00:59:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
You know guys, there are different degrees of being insane...
Just trying to find some middle ground here.
While that's true, I tend to agree with Kuje and Wooly.
Ed's made it clear that Cyric is still, largely, insane... or at least at a point where his disturbed mental state still provides his enemies with some degree of chance when attempting to counter his crazy schemes.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 01:01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine
One of the designers of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has come right out and said that he is no longer insane, in other words stating your opinion of him is incorrect... and that is not good enough for you?
You're not reading me right. I didn't deny the restoration of his sanity. I denied that the return of his sanity meant he's not still pulling the "evil for evil's sake" routine. And I never stated he was stupid or psycho. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 02:14:15
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| So is Cyric acting like Hannibal Lecter now? I can hear Cyric saying, "A bard made fun of me once. I slowly devoured his liver in front of his eyes while I had a nice glass of Sembian Red. Then I decided to prolong his life long enough so he could see me destroy all that he loved. Unfortunately for him I got sidetracked with the whole trial thing etc, etc. He's still lingering around here somewhere and my followers are still destroying stuff that he loved, I think. Anyway, top that one Bane." |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2006 : 11:02:47
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| Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, an eternal time of troubles and no god of magic. |
I'm always the Wizard! |
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Twilight
Seeker
Canada
68 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 03:20:33
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| Cyric though I kind of liked him more when he was insane |
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The new deities
