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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2006 :  23:32:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage



Though, as Wooly and I discussed above... there's enough "room" in the lore regarding Bane's return to speculate that Xvim may, in part, still exist within Bane's essence.




Or, as per my new theory, it's all a con job by Xvim.

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  15:47:14  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cyric is just so evil I don't want him to go.

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  17:50:22  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm Cyric evil.. no, Stupid evil yes. Insane stupid evil yes. What are they thinking of, thoes peapole that decided that he had to come into Forgotten realms.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  11:31:28  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually I think that when Cyric was THE evil deity, replace Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, it was a mistake. It was very much like Cyric was intended to be THE evil god in the setting, and it was two limiting, as well as very demanding of any one character.

On the other hand, now that Kelemvor has Death, and Bane (::cough:: Xvim ::cough:) has risen back to prominence, and heck, even Shar has been kicked up a notch as far as being a threat to the Realms, I think Cyric is an interesting character study of what happens to a mortal being given too much too soon.

Midnight had her Chosen and Azuth to aid her and support her, and she even adopted Savras and Velsharoon to aid her administration of magic and the Weave. Cyric tried to go it alone, had no real allies, and continued to try to kill more and more gods to gain more power, and eventually became obessed with power for power's sake, started to loose his power, and gained a dubious portfolio, Madness.

In the long run he may turn out to be a very intersting character, but initially I do think that he was a "design" mistake.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  11:53:32  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maby not a design mistake, but a mistake... The howle ideer to start with was that cyric should
take the places of the 3 gods. This was big "faliur", and now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!

But we still need Myrkull and bhall back! i pray that one day thoes designers open their eyes, and revove this wannabe evil once mortal now stupid good.

I rest my case... I am just a NO NO Fan of Cyric......


Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 14 Dec 2006 11:54:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  12:16:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!


That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?

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Bakra
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  14:01:22  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
<<Hmmm Cyric evil.. no, Stupid evil yes. Insane stupid evil yes.>>

I have to disagree on that statement. It has been a long time since I read the books, so I can not go into exact details.
He has directly or indirectly affected the following deities (this is from the novels)

Gond (Manipulated)
Iyachtu Xvim (imprisioned<?>)
Kelemvor (Manipulated)
Leira (Flat out killed her, kept it a secret)
Mask (Stole something extremely import from the God of Thieves)
Mystra (Manipulated multiple times)
Oghma (Tried to rewrite history)
Torm (Manipulated/teased, “Bug off, this is my faithful”)

AO the Overdiety denied the Greater Gods and Goddess request to censure Cyric because he was acting well within his portfolios…Cyric knew the rules better than a large majority of the pantheon! Plus he created an artifact so powerful it could literally influence the minds of his fellow deities. The above list is just from the novels not the gaming supplements. I am sure in one fashion or another he has messed with all of the deities.
To me it seems his short terms goals actually paid off, except for the rewriting of history and Xvim escaping. (He is not the god of imprisonment, I think that is Tyr.) I have no idea about his accomplishments when it comes to long range goals because enough time has not past to see if anything has come to fruitation.

Stupid evil----no.
Ambitious Evil---yes.

I guess my vote is no.

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  14:20:43  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh.. Sorry that´s just my opinion. There was a some tenage roleplayers in Denmark complaining about Banes death. Many pepol complained when Bane diead, thats whey he did come back.

Ahh... I rest my case, sorry if i offended some of you.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression

Peace.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 14 Dec 2006 14:22:41
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  14:36:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Many pepol complained when Bane diead, thats whey he did come back.


I still want something to back this up. Many people have issued many complaints about changes in the Realms, with absolutely no change at all. We have unexplained retcons by the bucketfull, a horde of Returns, the RSE of the month trend, the whole Great Wheel/Great Tree schism... All of these things have generated complaints with little effect. How can you say that people complaining about Bane's death caused TPTB to bring him back? I've seen no data backing that up; in fact, I'd never even heard that until you said it. I've not even seen all that many people complain about the death of Bane...

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  14:59:54  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've seen no data backing that up; in fact, I'd never even heard that until you said it. I've not even seen all that many people complain about the death of Bane...
I'd have to agree with this.

I mean, I've seen the odd comment here and there from FR devotees who've said Bane's death was a mistake. But I've never read anything about WotC making their decision to bring back Bane... being based on the opinions of FR fans.

This is especially so, when you consider all the Xvim-related activity detailed in Cloak & Dagger, which was the last 2e FR product published before the release of the FRCS 3e in 2001 (1371/72 DR).

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  15:22:00  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.

But ok give me a day and i´ll be back with the info.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  15:44:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.

But ok give me a day and i´ll be back with the info.



I've also seen no evidence that El in Hell was intended to permanently sideline Elminster. Seriously, before making assertations like this, you really should have proof on hand.

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  16:00:24  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That´s true Wooly Rupert, but i have seen this, and i am working on finding it again.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Zimme
Learned Scribe

Denmark
209 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  16:50:32  Show Profile  Click to see Zimme's MSN Messenger address Send Zimme a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!


That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?



I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?

Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!

Rannek.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  18:11:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zimme

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!


That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?



I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?



Nope. It's the assertation that WotC caved in to protests and brought Bane back. The biggest complaint I've seen about the whole thing is that we don't have much more than a blurb to explain it.

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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  18:29:46  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.

But ok give me a day and i´ll be back with the info.



Probably like you, my first language isn't English, so I use a software like Word when I post a message on a forum to ensure myself that at least my basic spelling is correct...

Edited by - Skeptic on 14 Dec 2006 18:30:30
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe

Denmark
468 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  21:34:08  Show Profile  Visit Faramicos's Homepage Send Faramicos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am a huge fan of Cyric. Loved following his life and ascent to the position as deity in the avatar series. So i of course voted for the prince of lies. And let me add that i am not happy at all with his loss of the position as god of the dead. I think Kelemvor, as a person, is way to soft and emotional to fit my picture of the lord of death. But i will admit that it is just my personal view of it. I can see how he fits the role, i just dont like it.

"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings"
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Ulicus
Seeker

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  22:54:52  Show Profile  Visit Ulicus's Homepage Send Ulicus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also have a "Bane Impersonating Theory" (I adopted it from someone else) only it's not Xvim doing the impersonating but Cyric. I figure that Cyric finally killed Xvim sometime after regaining his sanity and, realising that the ex-Banites would never accept him as Cyric, he adopted the role of a resurrected Bane. It's not exactly far fetched for the god of illusions and Prince of Lies.

Ao wanted Bane dead. He wouldn't just let him come back.

However, the best thing about this theory is imagining the expression on Fzhoul's face when he dies and meets his God...

"Bane" = "Xvim" = Cyric, Prince of Lies
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  23:36:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Okay i need some time to dig this info up. But i dont understand whey this statement comes as a suprise, it isent first time WOTC changeged somtihing just because player complaind. take Ex - When El was in hell ? Rumers said that this was a permenent goodbuy to El, and many complaind.

But ok give me a day and i´ll be back with the info.

What rumors?

As it is, I think this would have been something Ed had mentioned, or at least told us after the release of Elminster in Hell, in his replies here at Candlekeep. And yet, he said nothing.

I'd prefer a source for this.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  23:36:34  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zimme

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!


That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?



I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?



Nope. It's the assertation that WotC caved in to protests and brought Bane back. The biggest complaint I've seen about the whole thing is that we don't have much more than a blurb to explain it.

That, and that there should be a novel published about the event.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  00:33:22  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ulicus

I also have a "Bane Impersonating Theory" (I adopted it from someone else) only it's not Xvim doing the impersonating but Cyric. I figure that Cyric finally killed Xvim sometime after regaining his sanity and, realising that the ex-Banites would never accept him as Cyric, he adopted the role of a resurrected Bane. It's not exactly far fetched for the god of illusions and Prince of Lies.

Ao wanted Bane dead. He wouldn't just let him come back.

However, the best thing about this theory is imagining the expression on Fzhoul's face when he dies and meets his God...





I don't think that Ao wanted any particular god dead. If we assume that Bane, the real Bane, came back as the sourcebooks state, he couldn't do it if Ao didn't want it to happen. As Wooly stated earlier, Ao wanted all of the gods to remember who was in charge, and what he gave them their portfolios for.

I doubt its Cyric impersonating Bane, since in order to pull this off he would have to either imprison/destroy Xvim, and he failed to imprison Xvim before Xvim managed to steal a bunch of followers from Cyric. Its just my take, but I think that it would be difficult for Cyric to pull off.

As far as the gods and their motivations go, I think its interesting that it appears that there may have been more going on than just "lets steal the Tablets of Fate, rewrite them to make ourselves more powerful, and RULE THE UNIVERSE." Its pretty clear from the Shadows of the Avatar Trilogy that Bane suspected what might happen if they messed with the Tablets of Fate, and was gambling that he could use the situation to his betterment, and specifically had plans to steal power from/get some kind of power over Mystra.

In fact Mystra dying may have been for the best, because who knows what Bane managed to do to her while he had her imprisoned?

I can't specifically cite any source for this, but I also suspect that Myrkul may have been "in" on the Tablets of Fate "heist" because he wanted to see if there was any clue about his impending doom as the Dusk Lord, and if there was any way to avoid it (who knows, perhaps he found SOMETHING on the tablets that let him shunt himself into the Crown of Horns, so in the end he got a bit of what he was looking for).

This would leave Bhaal as the only one in on the "heist" that literally just wanted the tablets to make himself more powerful, and no offence, but I can see Bhaal as being straightforward enough to take the plan at face value, especially if he was convinced it would benefit him.

The idea that they had alternate plans going also synchs up with what Wooly was saying about the theft of the Tablets being the last straw, not the only reason for the Time of Troubles. The gods were so busy trying to jockey for position, and acting directly against one another, that they weren't promoting their portfolios among mortals nor were they acting more subtly with mortals as their proxies and agents.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  03:00:42  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cyric is still cool

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Zimme
Learned Scribe

Denmark
209 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  08:14:07  Show Profile  Click to see Zimme's MSN Messenger address Send Zimme a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zimme

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!


That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of?



I trust Wooly that the issue isent that bane is back?



Nope. It's the assertation that WotC caved in to protests and brought Bane back. The biggest complaint I've seen about the whole thing is that we don't have much more than a blurb to explain it.



Ah ok, I see. Personally I havent seen the complaints at all, but that does not mean that they arent there, but i think that the complaints should be sent in enormous volume for the editors to change realms events. As far as i know it has not happened before.

Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!

Rannek.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  19:17:57  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no doubt there were complaints (there are always complaints, are there not?). But Victor, I do agree that it's best not to assume that the complaints were the main motivation for WotC's decisions unless there is proof.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Ebonshine
Acolyte

12 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  22:17:32  Show Profile  Visit Ebonshine's Homepage Send Ebonshine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Cyric.

A definite step up from all he replaced and bane should have stayed gone in my opinion. I'm glad Bhaal has stayed gone and I like Myrkul's present situation. Xvim had potential that was never explored.

Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010214c

Specifically what Mr. Baker said:

Rich Baker: Cyric isn't nuts anymore. He's still not a nice guy, but the insanity engendered by his reading of TheCyrinishad and his efforts to absorb too many powerful portfolios has passed. Watch out for a ruthless, calculating, and more subtle Cyric as the campaign setting moves forward.


Cyric, he states, is subtle, ruthless, and calculating... not exactly synomymous with psycho, crazy, or stupid.
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