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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 22:12:13
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I go with canon wherever I can, so I like the Realms exactly the way it is written. Cyric has a lot of potential, and so I voted for him. I used the church of Cyric extensively as bad guys in my North campaign that I ran a few years back. I was really captivated by the information about his church in Lords of Darkness and in the Everlund section of the Silver Marches book.
That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun. |
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Swordcoast Wanderer
Acolyte
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 02:00:35
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| I like the idea of a impartial death god, Kelemvor fits the bill pretty well, however Jergal is a good second choice. |
"Why do they always come when I need to relieve myself? Tymora if you're listening-tell me that!" |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 05:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.
Hello-
I'm just curious what the 'metatext' is - and where info on it can be found. :) I'd be the first to admit that I'm not as up-to-date on many aspects of FR lore - but I', willing to learn! :)
Dhomal |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 05:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.
Hello-
I'm just curious what the 'metatext' is - and where info on it can be found. :) I'd be the first to admit that I'm not as up-to-date on many aspects of FR lore - but I', willing to learn! :)
Dhomal
Faiths & Pantheons. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 06:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.
I recall last year Steven and I chatting and he floated the idea that Leira is still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim: to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now. Hypothetically, of course ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 06:25:08
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| I think it was in Crucible that Ao flat out stated that Leira had been killed... But, I do like the idea of her coming back and working against Shar. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 15:05:41
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While Ao did tell Mystra that Cyric and Mask killed Leira, that desn't mean it's true. From the first time he appeared in the Shadowdale novel, Ao has consistantly demonstrated that he either is less than omnicent or that he's willing to let the other gods run their petty intrigues without his interference.
Ao either didn't know who had stolen the Tablets of Fates, or he chose not to tell the other gods that Bane and Bhaal had taken them. And everybody (including the demi-human, Kara-turian, Chultian and other non-Faerunian pantheons) got banished for the crime. The resulting chaos destroyed great swaths across the face of Fearun and resulted in multiple deaths among the various pantheons.
Given that history, why would Ao be anymore forthcomming about the sucess/failure of Cyric's attempt to kill Leira? |
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The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 15:57:07
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| I'm going to have to disagree with those that state that she's alive. There's many 2e and 3/3.5e sources that say she is dead. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Dec 2006 17:05:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 16:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
While Ao did tell Mystra that Cyric and Mask killed Leira, that desn't mean it's true. From the first time he appeared in the Shadowdale novel, Ao has consistantly demonstrated that he either is less than omnicent or that he's willing to let the other gods run their petty intrigues without his interference.
Ao either didn't know who had stolen the Tablets of Fates, or he chose not to tell the other gods that Bane and Bhaal had taken them. And everybody (including the demi-human, Kara-turian, Chultian and other non-Faerunian pantheons) got banished for the crime. The resulting chaos destroyed great swaths across the face of Fearun and resulted in multiple deaths among the various pantheons.
Given that history, why would Ao be anymore forthcomming about the sucess/failure of Cyric's attempt to kill Leira?
Why would Ao lie to the deities? And, as the god of the deities, how would he not know when one was slain?
The Time of Troubles wasn't just about the Tablets of Fate. If I remember correctly, he did know who took them. The reason everyone was punished wasn't because the Tablets were stolen; that was simply the last straw. Ao was utterly fed up with all deities -- not just the theives -- happily screwing each other over and ignoring their duties. Banishing them was a wake-up call to them. It let them know that the status quo was no longer going to cut it. By making them struggle as avatars, he gave them a taste of what their followers went thru, and made them appreciate all the more what their divinity meant. He showed them there was a penalty for acting the way they had, and made them realize worse could happen. Basically, he kicked them out to put the fear of Ao back into them. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Dec 2006 16:11:14 |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 17:03:46
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I have to say i love the bane theory but have you considered that he is really back and that maybe he didn't plan it but got lucky but the new colors are his way of saying look what i did to my own son your next to all the other deities? I love Cyric mostly because i love having someone evil that is a challenge to Bane, i hate the new Bhaal lore, and must say that he is one god i would like to see returned. I liked him as the god of death, where Bane was the evil god of the living, and Myrkul old bones was the god of the dead. I miss Myrkul as well, but i have to say an impartial god of the dead is very much appropriate, although i think Myrkul could return as a god of the undead perhaps. I like the mask theory as well and i have to say i have the feeling that Mask is trying for Leira's folio as well as trying to get some of shar's, after all he is the god of thieves what better heist then to steal another gods portfolio.
I have to say I agreee with wooly on the fact that i think Cyric is a bit weak as a god of evil goes, but i like him kept around for a challenge every now and again against Bane, and the other gods of evil who he ironically tends to attack more than the good gods, i consider him more of a god of the insane than anything else. |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
Edited by - VonRaventheDaring on 11 Dec 2006 17:08:21 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 18:06:36
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I don't doubt she was "killed". I just think it is possible that she could come back.
After all, Dragons of Faerun says that Tiamat was killed in -1071 DR and she came back.
Moander has been killed before, and he came back.
Borem was killed, but we know he has the potential to come back.
Bane was dead and he came back.
I cannot think of any insurmountable impediment to prevent Leira from coming back.
And even so, while Ao's word might seem definitive, as the goddess of illusion, there is just the off chance that maybe, just maybe, Leira has fooled Ao into believing that she died when she didn't. I don't know if he is an infallible overgod, but if she could pull that off it would be quite the feather in her cap.
Even still, assuming she is really, really dead, I don't see why she could not have hid a portion of her essence in the metatext sufficient to bring her back to life when Deneir assembles enough pieces of it...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 18:46:57
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| Oh, I don't have a problem with her coming back, assuming it's explained and it's not just another "return" like we had so many of a few years ago... I just reject the concept that she wasn't killed. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 19:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, I don't have a problem with her coming back, assuming it's explained and it's not just another "return" like we had so many of a few years ago... I just reject the concept that she wasn't killed.
I agree with both of your statements. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Dec 2006 19:04:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 23:38:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
From the first time he appeared in the Shadowdale novel, Ao has consistantly demonstrated that he either is less than omnicent or that he's willing to let the other gods run their petty intrigues without his interference.
Pre-ToT, perhaps. Though, after the events of that particular RSE, and its results... Ao goes about "tighting his belt" somewhat -- ensuring that some of those "petty intrigues" the gods enjoy playing, aren't always as disruptive to either the Realms or Realmspace itself.
Faiths & Avatars makes that clear.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 23:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, I don't have a problem with her coming back, assuming it's explained and it's not just another "return" like we had so many of a few years ago... I just reject the concept that she wasn't killed.
I agree with both of your statements. :)
I'll throw my support behind the "dislike of an unexplained return for Leira." A lot of us have had quite a fill of those...
And I believe she was killed. References in multiple sources through both 2e and 3e make that pretty clear.
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Edited by - The Sage on 11 Dec 2006 23:44:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 01:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring
I have to say i love the bane theory but have you considered that he is really back and that maybe he didn't plan it but got lucky but the new colors are his way of saying look what i did to my own son your next to all the other deities?
I don't think a true tyrant would flaunt his victory by leaving visible reminders of someone he had taken out. A true tyrant would, IMO, remove all visible signs of those who had gone before.
That's why I favor either the "Oops, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm Xvim Bane!" theory. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 22:10:05
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I would have preferred that Bane stay dead.
I like Myrkul status and Kelemvor as the God of the dead.
I like Cyric, but Mask has a much reduced portfolio..
I was sad that Leira was killed during ToT.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 22:45:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
one quick question : Did Xvim die when Bane came back ?
Maby Leira made an illusion and tok the form of AO ?
But i am surprised to see that so many of you want here back.. I thougt that you wanted Mykul back, i dont like the idear that there is a pittyfull god as Kelemvor as a death god in Forgotten realms.
I doubt Leira was powerful enough to convince everyone that she is Ao -- or that Ao would allow that. She's dead, Jim.
Obviously, not all of us regard Kelemvor as pitiful. Some of us, myself included, think Kelemvor is a much more suitable deity than Myrkul ever thought about being. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 23:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
one quick question : Did Xvim die when Bane came back ?
It's never been directly specified. The Realmslore tends to favor the option that Xvim was ultimately destroyed however.
The FRCS and F&P references are the only sources we have on this. They gave us small notes saying that on this one particular night (Midwinter night of 1372 DR), all worshippers of Iyachtu Xvim had a dream where they saw him split apart and Bane emerge from within. Now, what we do know is that after Bane burst forth from Xvim, all that was left was a "smoking husk of his remains".
Though, as Wooly and I discussed above... there's enough "room" in the lore regarding Bane's return to speculate that Xvim may, in part, still exist within Bane's essence.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 23:32:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Though, as Wooly and I discussed above... there's enough "room" in the lore regarding Bane's return to speculate that Xvim may, in part, still exist within Bane's essence.
Or, as per my new theory, it's all a con job by Xvim.  |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 15:47:14
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| Cyric is just so evil I don't want him to go. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 11:31:28
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Actually I think that when Cyric was THE evil deity, replace Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, it was a mistake. It was very much like Cyric was intended to be THE evil god in the setting, and it was two limiting, as well as very demanding of any one character.
On the other hand, now that Kelemvor has Death, and Bane (::cough:: Xvim ::cough:) has risen back to prominence, and heck, even Shar has been kicked up a notch as far as being a threat to the Realms, I think Cyric is an interesting character study of what happens to a mortal being given too much too soon.
Midnight had her Chosen and Azuth to aid her and support her, and she even adopted Savras and Velsharoon to aid her administration of magic and the Weave. Cyric tried to go it alone, had no real allies, and continued to try to kill more and more gods to gain more power, and eventually became obessed with power for power's sake, started to loose his power, and gained a dubious portfolio, Madness.
In the long run he may turn out to be a very intersting character, but initially I do think that he was a "design" mistake. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 11:53:32
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Maby not a design mistake, but a mistake... The howle ideer to start with was that cyric should
take the places of the 3 gods. This was big "faliur", and now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!
But we still need Myrkull and bhall back! i pray that one day thoes designers open their eyes, and revove this wannabe evil once mortal now stupid good.
I rest my case... I am just a NO NO Fan of Cyric......
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 14 Dec 2006 11:54:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 12:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
now bane is back because (too many tenager roleplayer) whant him back.. goush!
That's a rather interesting claim. I've not seen anything to back that one up. Have you some knowledge the rest of us are unaware of? |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 14:01:22
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<<Hmmm Cyric evil.. no, Stupid evil yes. Insane stupid evil yes.>>
I have to disagree on that statement. It has been a long time since I read the books, so I can not go into exact details.
He has directly or indirectly affected the following deities (this is from the novels)
Gond (Manipulated)
Iyachtu Xvim (imprisioned<?>)
Kelemvor (Manipulated)
Leira (Flat out killed her, kept it a secret)
Mask (Stole something extremely import from the God of Thieves)
Mystra (Manipulated multiple times)
Oghma (Tried to rewrite history)
Torm (Manipulated/teased, “Bug off, this is my faithful”)
AO the Overdiety denied the Greater Gods and Goddess request to censure Cyric because he was acting well within his portfolios…Cyric knew the rules better than a large majority of the pantheon! Plus he created an artifact so powerful it could literally influence the minds of his fellow deities. The above list is just from the novels not the gaming supplements. I am sure in one fashion or another he has messed with all of the deities.
To me it seems his short terms goals actually paid off, except for the rewriting of history and Xvim escaping. (He is not the god of imprisonment, I think that is Tyr.) I have no idea about his accomplishments when it comes to long range goals because enough time has not past to see if anything has come to fruitation.
Stupid evil----no.
Ambitious Evil---yes.
I guess my vote is no.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
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Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 14:36:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Many pepol complained when Bane diead, thats whey he did come back.
I still want something to back this up. Many people have issued many complaints about changes in the Realms, with absolutely no change at all. We have unexplained retcons by the bucketfull, a horde of Returns, the RSE of the month trend, the whole Great Wheel/Great Tree schism... All of these things have generated complaints with little effect. How can you say that people complaining about Bane's death caused TPTB to bring him back? I've seen no data backing that up; in fact, I'd never even heard that until you said it. I've not even seen all that many people complain about the death of Bane... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 14:59:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've seen no data backing that up; in fact, I'd never even heard that until you said it. I've not even seen all that many people complain about the death of Bane...
I'd have to agree with this.
I mean, I've seen the odd comment here and there from FR devotees who've said Bane's death was a mistake. But I've never read anything about WotC making their decision to bring back Bane... being based on the opinions of FR fans.
This is especially so, when you consider all the Xvim-related activity detailed in Cloak & Dagger, which was the last 2e FR product published before the release of the FRCS 3e in 2001 (1371/72 DR).
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The new deities
