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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2006 :  19:17:12  Show Profile  Visit Wandering_mage's Homepage Send Wandering_mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Truth be told I never liked Cyric either, but I have to admit they have done a good job about making him a bad guy. That said Cyric and Bane existing is a good balance. Plus dead gods offer tons of possibilities. Like Myrkul and the Crown of Horns (think I got that right). There is still some story there.

Illum
The Wandering Mage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2006 :  23:22:01  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, I'm more and more favoring the idea that Bane 2.0 isn't really Bane, but a new and improved version of Xvim capitalizing on his late father's position and reputation.

Actually, if you recall that long discussion we had quite a while ago about the changeover from Bane, to Xvim, back to Bane again... and what "happened" to Bane as a result, I've decided to include a special sub-section of the Candlekeep FAQ in the "Bane's Return" section, which details our "theory."

Here's the draft version:-
quote:
Originally posted in the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ

Let's assume that Bane'e Return wasn't planned, and when Xvim had gathered enough of Bane's power and essence, it reached a critical mass and overwhelmed him. I can see Bane, after such an event, being a little different from what he was previously -- perhaps even existing as a merged being between both himself and what was left of Xvim.

His symbols and colour change to more closely match Xvim. That would also indicate more of a merge -- which, in my opinion, points to the theory I listed. Xvim's (ascended) symbol looked more like his dad's -- only with the hand sitting with the thumb facing the left, rather than the right like Bane's. And Xvim's symbols have always had eyes -- old and ascended.

Bane's new symbol has still got the black fist (facing the same way as his old symbol) and squeezing green rays. Xvim's symbols always had a green component to them -- in the form of those eyes on his symbols. Perhaps the green rays in the new Bane symbol could reflect Xvim's past existence with Bane -- maybe illustrating how Xvim was later replaced (or rather subsumed) by a resurrected Bane by the fact that his black fist is closing in on the green rays (that represent Xvim).

And we must not forget that Bane's old symbol had the black hand on a red field -- so Bane 2.0 is using Xvim's colors. The green mainly... though, as I said above, Bane's Hand is still the same in the new symbol as it was in the old -- just clutching rather than flat. Bane 2.0 is utilising Xvim's green.

If the "planned" explanation is used, then Bane should have kept his old colours of red and black. The fact that he's using black and green suggests that some of Xvim remains... And that's another interesting thing: how much of a tyrant could Bane be if he couldn't even totally subsume his own son?

The more I think about this and the lore we do have, the more I tend to think that Bane's return was as much a surprise to him as it was to anyone else.

Though... Bane's Hand is squeezing the green rays -- and if we look at that from the "Bane-eventually-subsumes-Xvim" stand point, that image itself could suggest Bane is perhaps closing in around Xvim's remnants, or rather, slowly squeezing it out of existence (or rather again, completely consuming it).

It could be, if we assume Bane's Return was in fact an opportunity rather than something properly planned on Bane's behalf, that Bane's current image is transitory. Once Bane's completely consumes what remains of Xvim into his being... Bane's older symbol (or a new and reinvigorated symbol) may become apparent. Bane's resurrection then, will be properly complete.

It could also be that Bane's hand is clutching an object that is shining forth, despite his desire to contain it... Xvim perhaps. Sure, it's not appropriate for a god of tyranny, but it is an alternate interpretation. The aspect shining forth could represent also Freedom. Bane's squeezing or crushing it could suggest how tyranny is usually equated with the end of freedom.

If that's the case... then it's highly appropriate.



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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Dec 2006 23:22:34
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 10 Dec 2006 :  03:52:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Actually, if you recall that long discussion we had quite a while ago about the changeover from Bane, to Xvim, back to Bane again... and what "happened" to Bane as a result, I've decided to include a special sub-section of the Candlekeep FAQ in the "Bane's Return" section, which details our "theory."


I do recall that discussion... But now that I've thought of the impersonation idea, I think I like it more.

Naetheless, I like your write-up.

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LucianBarasu
Fellaren-Krae Co-ordinator

USA
214 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2006 :  07:12:36  Show Profile  Visit LucianBarasu's Homepage  Send LucianBarasu an AOL message  Click to see LucianBarasu's MSN Messenger address Send LucianBarasu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry wooly you had me nodding with the gods up until Bhaal.

The god of murder is how a God of Murder should be, an unstoppable ( no jokes) killing machine. Lose an arm? no problem, i'll rip yours off and beat you with it. kind of god. He shouldn't have been killed.

I have to agree with Sage and Kuje, I keep old school gods around. none of this new " i popped out of another god reborn" crap.

Old school panthenon for old school DMs.



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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2006 :  16:28:20  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lucianb

Sorry wooly you had me nodding with the gods up until Bhaal.

The god of murder is how a God of Murder should be, an unstoppable ( no jokes) killing machine. Lose an arm? no problem, i'll rip yours off and beat you with it. kind of god. He shouldn't have been killed.

I have to agree with Sage and Kuje, I keep old school gods around. none of this new " i popped out of another god reborn" crap.

Old school panthenon for old school DMs.




I am so happy to hear that you all have the same opinion

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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 10 Dec 2006 19:20:27
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 10 Dec 2006 :  22:12:13  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I go with canon wherever I can, so I like the Realms exactly the way it is written. Cyric has a lot of potential, and so I voted for him. I used the church of Cyric extensively as bad guys in my North campaign that I ran a few years back. I was really captivated by the information about his church in Lords of Darkness and in the Everlund section of the Silver Marches book.

That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.
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Swordcoast Wanderer
Acolyte

Canada
10 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  02:00:35  Show Profile  Visit Swordcoast Wanderer's Homepage Send Swordcoast Wanderer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea of a impartial death god, Kelemvor fits the bill pretty well, however Jergal is a good second choice.

"Why do they always come when I need to relieve myself? Tymora if you're listening-tell me that!"
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe

USA
564 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  05:50:05  Show Profile  Visit Dhomal's Homepage Send Dhomal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.



Hello-

I'm just curious what the 'metatext' is - and where info on it can be found. :) I'd be the first to admit that I'm not as up-to-date on many aspects of FR lore - but I', willing to learn! :)

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  05:52:46  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.



Hello-

I'm just curious what the 'metatext' is - and where info on it can be found. :) I'd be the first to admit that I'm not as up-to-date on many aspects of FR lore - but I', willing to learn! :)

Dhomal



Faiths & Pantheons. :)

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4883 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  06:18:16  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

That said, I am one of the proponents of the idea that Leira may still be alive. I am fond of the speculations that she has hidden a portion of herself in the metatext that she has fooled Deneir into gathering together. I think it very possible she could spring to life again as soon as Deneir has compiled enough of the metatext to spontaneously resurrect her. That would be fun.



I recall last year Steven and I chatting and he floated the idea that Leira is still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim: to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now. Hypothetically, of course ...

-- George Krashos

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30204 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  06:25:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it was in Crucible that Ao flat out stated that Leira had been killed... But, I do like the idea of her coming back and working against Shar.

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Halidan
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  15:05:41  Show Profile  Visit Halidan's Homepage Send Halidan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While Ao did tell Mystra that Cyric and Mask killed Leira, that desn't mean it's true. From the first time he appeared in the Shadowdale novel, Ao has consistantly demonstrated that he either is less than omnicent or that he's willing to let the other gods run their petty intrigues without his interference.

Ao either didn't know who had stolen the Tablets of Fates, or he chose not to tell the other gods that Bane and Bhaal had taken them. And everybody (including the demi-human, Kara-turian, Chultian and other non-Faerunian pantheons) got banished for the crime. The resulting chaos destroyed great swaths across the face of Fearun and resulted in multiple deaths among the various pantheons.

Given that history, why would Ao be anymore forthcomming about the sucess/failure of Cyric's attempt to kill Leira?

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  15:57:07  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to have to disagree with those that state that she's alive. There's many 2e and 3/3.5e sources that say she is dead.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 11 Dec 2006 17:05:06
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  16:10:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan

While Ao did tell Mystra that Cyric and Mask killed Leira, that desn't mean it's true. From the first time he appeared in the Shadowdale novel, Ao has consistantly demonstrated that he either is less than omnicent or that he's willing to let the other gods run their petty intrigues without his interference.

Ao either didn't know who had stolen the Tablets of Fates, or he chose not to tell the other gods that Bane and Bhaal had taken them. And everybody (including the demi-human, Kara-turian, Chultian and other non-Faerunian pantheons) got banished for the crime. The resulting chaos destroyed great swaths across the face of Fearun and resulted in multiple deaths among the various pantheons.

Given that history, why would Ao be anymore forthcomming about the sucess/failure of Cyric's attempt to kill Leira?



Why would Ao lie to the deities? And, as the god of the deities, how would he not know when one was slain?

The Time of Troubles wasn't just about the Tablets of Fate. If I remember correctly, he did know who took them. The reason everyone was punished wasn't because the Tablets were stolen; that was simply the last straw. Ao was utterly fed up with all deities -- not just the theives -- happily screwing each other over and ignoring their duties. Banishing them was a wake-up call to them. It let them know that the status quo was no longer going to cut it. By making them struggle as avatars, he gave them a taste of what their followers went thru, and made them appreciate all the more what their divinity meant. He showed them there was a penalty for acting the way they had, and made them realize worse could happen. Basically, he kicked them out to put the fear of Ao back into them.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Dec 2006 16:11:14
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  17:03:46  Show Profile  Visit VonRaventheDaring's Homepage  Send VonRaventheDaring a Yahoo! Message Send VonRaventheDaring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to say i love the bane theory but have you considered that he is really back and that maybe he didn't plan it but got lucky but the new colors are his way of saying look what i did to my own son your next to all the other deities? I love Cyric mostly because i love having someone evil that is a challenge to Bane, i hate the new Bhaal lore, and must say that he is one god i would like to see returned. I liked him as the god of death, where Bane was the evil god of the living, and Myrkul old bones was the god of the dead. I miss Myrkul as well, but i have to say an impartial god of the dead is very much appropriate, although i think Myrkul could return as a god of the undead perhaps. I like the mask theory as well and i have to say i have the feeling that Mask is trying for Leira's folio as well as trying to get some of shar's, after all he is the god of thieves what better heist then to steal another gods portfolio.
I have to say I agreee with wooly on the fact that i think Cyric is a bit weak as a god of evil goes, but i like him kept around for a challenge every now and again against Bane, and the other gods of evil who he ironically tends to attack more than the good gods, i consider him more of a god of the insane than anything else.

"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser

Edited by - VonRaventheDaring on 11 Dec 2006 17:08:21
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  18:06:36  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't doubt she was "killed". I just think it is possible that she could come back.

After all, Dragons of Faerun says that Tiamat was killed in -1071 DR and she came back.
Moander has been killed before, and he came back.
Borem was killed, but we know he has the potential to come back.
Bane was dead and he came back.

I cannot think of any insurmountable impediment to prevent Leira from coming back.

And even so, while Ao's word might seem definitive, as the goddess of illusion, there is just the off chance that maybe, just maybe, Leira has fooled Ao into believing that she died when she didn't. I don't know if he is an infallible overgod, but if she could pull that off it would be quite the feather in her cap.

Even still, assuming she is really, really dead, I don't see why she could not have hid a portion of her essence in the metatext sufficient to bring her back to life when Deneir assembles enough pieces of it...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  18:46:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I don't have a problem with her coming back, assuming it's explained and it's not just another "return" like we had so many of a few years ago... I just reject the concept that she wasn't killed.

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Kuje
Great Reader

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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  19:04:15  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Oh, I don't have a problem with her coming back, assuming it's explained and it's not just another "return" like we had so many of a few years ago... I just reject the concept that she wasn't killed.



I agree with both of your statements. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 11 Dec 2006 19:04:38
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  23:38:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan

From the first time he appeared in the Shadowdale novel, Ao has consistantly demonstrated that he either is less than omnicent or that he's willing to let the other gods run their petty intrigues without his interference.
Pre-ToT, perhaps. Though, after the events of that particular RSE, and its results... Ao goes about "tighting his belt" somewhat -- ensuring that some of those "petty intrigues" the gods enjoy playing, aren't always as disruptive to either the Realms or Realmspace itself.

Faiths & Avatars makes that clear.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 11 Dec 2006 :  23:43:31  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Oh, I don't have a problem with her coming back, assuming it's explained and it's not just another "return" like we had so many of a few years ago... I just reject the concept that she wasn't killed.



I agree with both of your statements. :)

I'll throw my support behind the "dislike of an unexplained return for Leira." A lot of us have had quite a fill of those...

And I believe she was killed. References in multiple sources through both 2e and 3e make that pretty clear.

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Edited by - The Sage on 11 Dec 2006 23:44:52
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Dec 2006 :  01:32:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring

I have to say i love the bane theory but have you considered that he is really back and that maybe he didn't plan it but got lucky but the new colors are his way of saying look what i did to my own son your next to all the other deities?


I don't think a true tyrant would flaunt his victory by leaving visible reminders of someone he had taken out. A true tyrant would, IMO, remove all visible signs of those who had gone before.

That's why I favor either the "Oops, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm Xvim Bane!" theory.

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Victor_ograygor
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Denmark
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Posted - 12 Dec 2006 :  21:57:16  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
one quick question : Did Xvim die when Bane came back ?

Maby Leira made an illusion and tok the form of AO ?

But i am surprised to see that so many of you want here back.. I thougt that you wanted Mykul back, i dont like the idear that there is a pittyfull god as Kelemvor as a death god in Forgotten realms.


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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 12 Dec 2006 21:58:37
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
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Posted - 12 Dec 2006 :  22:10:05  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I would have preferred that Bane stay dead.

I like Myrkul status and Kelemvor as the God of the dead.

I like Cyric, but Mask has a much reduced portfolio..

I was sad that Leira was killed during ToT.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Dec 2006 :  22:45:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

one quick question : Did Xvim die when Bane came back ?

Maby Leira made an illusion and tok the form of AO ?

But i am surprised to see that so many of you want here back.. I thougt that you wanted Mykul back, i dont like the idear that there is a pittyfull god as Kelemvor as a death god in Forgotten realms.





I doubt Leira was powerful enough to convince everyone that she is Ao -- or that Ao would allow that. She's dead, Jim.

Obviously, not all of us regard Kelemvor as pitiful. Some of us, myself included, think Kelemvor is a much more suitable deity than Myrkul ever thought about being.

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The Sage
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Posted - 12 Dec 2006 :  23:16:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

one quick question : Did Xvim die when Bane came back ?

It's never been directly specified. The Realmslore tends to favor the option that Xvim was ultimately destroyed however.

The FRCS and F&P references are the only sources we have on this. They gave us small notes saying that on this one particular night (Midwinter night of 1372 DR), all worshippers of Iyachtu Xvim had a dream where they saw him split apart and Bane emerge from within. Now, what we do know is that after Bane burst forth from Xvim, all that was left was a "smoking husk of his remains".

Though, as Wooly and I discussed above... there's enough "room" in the lore regarding Bane's return to speculate that Xvim may, in part, still exist within Bane's essence.

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