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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  23:24:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine



Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.



What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.

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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe

166 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2006 :  01:00:56  Show Profile  Visit Aglaranna's Homepage Send Aglaranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eh...I think Cyric acts like a spoiled brat, but that's just my opinion. I think Kelemvor makes a good god of the dead; if I was stuck in that grim ol' place, I'd not want to be stuck with Myrkul or Cyric!

"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2006 :  02:47:04  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine



Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.



What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.





I don't dispute what Rich said. Cyric did appear to be much more sane at the end of the Crucible, but to support what Wooly said, other than the fact that he appeared to be much more lucid at the end of that novel, we haven't seen much to show HOW this lucidity has changed him, either evinced by Cyric himself or through a refocusing of the church devoted to him.


"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2006 :  04:27:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine



Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.



What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.





I don't dispute what Rich said. Cyric did appear to be much more sane at the end of the Crucible, but to support what Wooly said, other than the fact that he appeared to be much more lucid at the end of that novel, we haven't seen much to show HOW this lucidity has changed him, either evinced by Cyric himself or through a refocusing of the church devoted to him.





Exactly. You can tell me all day long that he's changed, but until I see it for myself, I'm not buying it.

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2006 :  09:26:46  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Many pepol complained when Bane diead, thats whey he did come back.


I still want something to back this up. Many people have issued many complaints about changes in the Realms, with absolutely no change at all. We have unexplained retcons by the bucketfull, a horde of Returns, the RSE of the month trend, the whole Great Wheel/Great Tree schism... All of these things have generated complaints with little effect. How can you say that people complaining about Bane's death caused TPTB to bring him back? I've seen no data backing that up; in fact, I'd never even heard that until you said it. I've not even seen all that many people complain about the death of Bane...



Okay i give up for now, i cant find my proof, but i know itīs out there. I am not giving up, i made a thread on WOTC Messege bord, about this issue.

Until i get my proof... Sorry,

But iīll be back

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Ebonshine
Acolyte

12 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2006 :  23:49:24  Show Profile  Visit Ebonshine's Homepage Send Ebonshine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine



Also, for all who continue to claim that Cyric is a nut job and is stupid in a "Hey look at me I'm evil" kind of way really need to do a little more research before claiming such.



What do you mean, do research? All of his published depictions, thus far, support the evil-for-evil's-sake motif. I'll readily revise my opinion of him, when I see something to make me do so.





I don't dispute what Rich said. Cyric did appear to be much more sane at the end of the Crucible, but to support what Wooly said, other than the fact that he appeared to be much more lucid at the end of that novel, we haven't seen much to show HOW this lucidity has changed him, either evinced by Cyric himself or through a refocusing of the church devoted to him.





Exactly. You can tell me all day long that he's changed, but until I see it for myself, I'm not buying it.



One of the designers of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has come right out and said that he is no longer insane, in other words stating your opinion of him is incorrect... and that is not good enough for you? I really don't think there is anything else that can be said. Rich Baker states directly in that quote that Cyric is no longer insane and you don't believe it.

Are you this way when Ed Greenwood states something too that is not in a published depiction like he does regularly on this site through the Hooded One? You refuse to believe it until you "see it for yourself" whatever that may mean?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2006 :  23:53:03  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think they mean that we are TOLD Cyric is no longer insane, but they see no real evidence of that with regards to Cyric's actions (ie. "actions speak louder than words").

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2006 :  00:24:12  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I'll believe Ed over Rich, especially since Ed has said, at least four times this year, that Cyric is still crazy/insane. So, when the sourcebooks show us that that isn't the case, I'll believe Rich.

Oh yeah, for the record, I'd even disbelieve Ed if sourcebooks/novels/etc say something different then what he says.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 21 Dec 2006 00:31:42
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2006 :  00:26:50  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know guys, there are different degrees of being insane...

Just trying to find some middle ground here.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2006 :  00:59:20  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

You know guys, there are different degrees of being insane...

Just trying to find some middle ground here.

While that's true, I tend to agree with Kuje and Wooly.

Ed's made it clear that Cyric is still, largely, insane... or at least at a point where his disturbed mental state still provides his enemies with some degree of chance when attempting to counter his crazy schemes.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2006 :  01:01:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine

One of the designers of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has come right out and said that he is no longer insane, in other words stating your opinion of him is incorrect... and that is not good enough for you?


You're not reading me right. I didn't deny the restoration of his sanity. I denied that the return of his sanity meant he's not still pulling the "evil for evil's sake" routine. And I never stated he was stupid or psycho.

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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2006 :  02:14:15  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So is Cyric acting like Hannibal Lecter now? I can hear Cyric saying, "A bard made fun of me once. I slowly devoured his liver in front of his eyes while I had a nice glass of Sembian Red. Then I decided to prolong his life long enough so he could see me destroy all that he loved. Unfortunately for him I got sidetracked with the whole trial thing etc, etc. He's still lingering around here somewhere and my followers are still destroying stuff that he loved, I think. Anyway, top that one Bane."

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2006 :  09:48:13  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont think that Cyric (Seer-ick) is like Hannibal Lecter now? I aggre with Wooly Rupert that Cyric in many ways can be seen as do evil for evil's sake.

It was me that said thet Cyric is stupid Evil.

But yes youre right Rinonalyrna Fathomlin there are different degrees of being insane.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Weiser_Cain
Learned Scribe

87 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2006 :  11:02:47  Show Profile  Visit Weiser_Cain's Homepage Send Weiser_Cain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, an eternal time of troubles and no god of magic.

I'm always the Wizard!
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Twilight
Seeker

Canada
68 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2006 :  03:20:33  Show Profile  Visit Twilight's Homepage Send Twilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cyric though I kind of liked him more when he was insane
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2006 :  11:11:26  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont like the idea about insane goods, has there ever been another insane good i Forgotten Realms ? Not just CN, but one with madness our insanity domain.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1071 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2006 :  12:07:16  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Bhaal, because Baldurs Gate was my introduction to the realms, so I've always been irrationally fond of the Lord of Murder.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2006 :  22:31:14  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khorne

I voted Bhaal, because Baldurs Gate was my introduction to the realms, so I've always been irrationally fond of the Lord of Murder.



You know, I rather have to agree.

For me, Bhaal = fond memories.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  11:11:50  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just want to know one thing : What so special about Bhaal ? I havent played Baldurs Gate.
I like goods with carekter, and i showed you whey i like myrkul.

Just a link as reminder of the most briliant good in Forgotten Realms.
http://www.shadowrealms-cardiff.co.uk/religion/myrkul.html

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  13:03:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Just a link as reminder of the most briliant good in Forgotten Realms.
http://www.shadowrealms-cardiff.co.uk/religion/myrkul.html



Yup, so brilliant he was nearly destroyed and lost his godhead.

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  13:09:41  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Just a link as reminder of the most briliant good in Forgotten Realms.
http://www.shadowrealms-cardiff.co.uk/religion/myrkul.html



Yup, so brilliant he was nearly destroyed and lost his godhead.



Wooly Rupert Myrkul was known as one of the most brilliant goods, if you donīt agre with me plz tell me, one good that were more briliant than him. Even Bhaal and Bane was surprised under TOT, by the briliant idears he had.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  14:02:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good ideas are one thing... successively implementing them and carrying one's "brilliant ideas" forward is completely another -- even for a god.

Myrkul and Bane likely thought they were themselves quite smart for their theft of the Tablets of Fate and supposedly now possessing the ability to tame Ao's great power. Though Ao proved, through his own response to the theft and, ultimately, through the end-results of the ToT itself, that Myrkul and Bane clearly had very little true understanding about just what Ao could do and what he was about.

Their combined "brilliance" ended up costing them practically everything.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 27 Dec 2006 14:10:41
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  14:24:28  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Good ideas are one thing... successively implementing them and carrying one's "brilliant ideas" forward is completely another -- even for a god.

Myrkul and Bane likely thought they were themselves quite smart for their theft of the Tablets of Fate and supposedly now possessing the ability to tame Ao's great power. Though Ao proved, through his own response to the theft and, ultimately, through the end-results of the ToT itself, that Myrkul and Bane clearly had very little true understanding about just what Ao could do and what he was about.

Their combined "brilliance" ended up costing them practically everything.




Yes i agree with you "The Sage"

Tell me, one good that were more briliant than Myrkul ?

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 27 Dec 2006 14:25:25
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  15:25:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor


Tell me, one good that were more briliant than Myrkul ?



All the ones that didn't take the Tablets of Fate.

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Ebonshine
Acolyte

12 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  18:30:53  Show Profile  Visit Ebonshine's Homepage Send Ebonshine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ebonshine

One of the designers of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has come right out and said that he is no longer insane, in other words stating your opinion of him is incorrect... and that is not good enough for you?


You're not reading me right. I didn't deny the restoration of his sanity. I denied that the return of his sanity meant he's not still pulling the "evil for evil's sake" routine. And I never stated he was stupid or psycho.



I guess I wasn't understanding you correctly.
I really don't know what you mean by evil for evil's sake. Don't all evil deities do such? Commit acts of atrocity for their own benefit? Did you mean just random acts of evil for no apparent reason? Which is something I suppose Cyric could be accused of but then if such random acts lead to strife and murder, which is more than likely the case I would assume, then that supports his domain and portfolio so it really isn't just evil for evil's sake.

Also, if my memory serves, doesn't the Lords of Darkness book state that Cyric is consolidating his power presently to recover from his bout of insanity? Isn't that statement, if it is accurate, a modicum of proof that he is no longer mad and that his actions aren't just random but have a purpose beyond what was seen after he read his own book?

Either way, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You, like many, don't care for Cyric, while I on the other hand prefer him over any other dark deity in the Forgotten Realms. Talos, Shar, and Garagos (once he finally goes CE) are also preferable in my opinion to any of the other deities mentioned by the original poster.

Bhaal was an incompetent dark god whom even in the game that put him on the map again, so to speak, got bested by one of his followers, Melissan I think her name was, when she chose to keep his power for herself instead of returning him to existence. So even in the popular Baldur's Gate series he was a failure in the end.

Myrkul I actually liked but I didn't understand why he allied himself with either bane or bhaal, two incompetents. That alliance was his downfall although as I stated earlier I like his current situation as a malevolent artifact.
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