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Alaundo
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Posted - 04 Nov 2006 :  16:50:47  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met

This is a Book Club thread for Shadowbred (Book 1 of The Twilight War trilogy), by Paul S. Kemp. Please discuss chapters 14 - 17 herein.

Alaundo
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darkkage
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2006 :  06:45:41  Show Profile  Visit darkkage's Homepage Send darkkage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay First off, I read the whole book on the first day(bit of a speed reader) and I have to say I loved it.

This chapter setup is kind of......akward
but i will do my best to adapt.

Okay on to my questions and comments.

First question is about Riven. When he fights the shadovar he puts the two stones from the sojurner around his head. But in Midnights Mask he keeped five of the stones and selled two. Where is the other three stones? Will they so up in later stories? For that matter you never told us what the other stone does.
The other question is about Weaveshear, can it absorb clerical spells and psionic power? I know that it can now absorb both weave and shadow weave spells but Rivilen uses clerical magic as well, can weaveshear do anything about that?
Please tell me if you can.

Now for my comments.
I love the book, but there was one thing that bothered me in the book.
It was the fact that the shadovar were so weak. I mean they are suposed to be arch-wizards that could rule the world, but when Cale faced them they didn't even have the simplist defence spells like stone skin or any contingency spells in place. All the things I have read about the shadovar lead me to beleve that they were alot stronger then they were dippicted in the book. Even lowly solders were supposed to have strong magical weapons and armor as well as have magical items like wands, septers, rings, amulets and potions. I was expecting some big spell battles like Gromph vs. Lich in the Return of the Spider Queen or like when they fought the Sojurner. The Sojurner was realy cool by the way. Can we expect battles like that in the future?

Please pretty please.
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2006 :  14:26:54  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Darkkage,

You're jumping right to the end so we cannot discuss earlier chapters!

Either way, I'm glad you enjoyed the novel.

On the subject of the shadovar: A typical group of shadovar soldiers, even if all of them are shades, will really be no match for Cale or Riven, much less Cale AND Riven.

The Princes, however, are a different matter. I certainly did not intend for them to come across as weak. Rivalen, after all, essentially guts Cale with an avasculate spell. Keep in mind that, while Cale hurt Rivalen on Sakkors, Rivalen hurt Cale worse.

As for magical defenses, keep in mind that Rivalen appeared in Sakkors to face Cale and Riven after a delay (remember: Cale and Riven were wondering about it). In my mind, he used that time to inform Yder (so Yder could summon the troops) and cast some defensive spells. But because the battle is shown from Cale's POV, Rivalen's defenses would not necessarily be obvious. As for a contingency spell in particular, Rivalen does have such spells effective on him. But Cale's battle with him did not trigger it (i.e., Rivalen was never near death).

At the end of the day, I figure anyone who can stand toe to toe with Cale and Riven, and even set them to running, is by definition not weak.

Finally, yes sir, there will be large battles in future books, and some spell battles. Hopefully they'll give you a better sense of the Princes' abilities.

Oh, and Riven's remaining ioun stones: I have to plead the fifth. All in due time. Fair enough?

Edited by - PaulSKemp on 10 Nov 2006 14:29:47
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darkkage
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2006 :  22:26:53  Show Profile  Visit darkkage's Homepage Send darkkage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, its just that the book was so good I finished it all at once!
I'm just trying to say that you could have a lot of fun with the shadovar. I was expecting you to dress them up like you did the drow in Resurection and in my mind the shadovar are stronger then the drow of the city of spiders. So that when Cale beats them it is a true show of his strenth. I mean I just read the book "Tome of Magic" and I was expecting the shadovar to have all these cool abilitys and spells in shadow magic. Like weapons with shadow strike or a shade that makes shadow copies of himself and then uses shadow magic to make the illusions "real." There by making even a small amount of shadovar a large force.I was expecting moments when Cale casts a spell to see the magical auras on them and is suprised at all the powerful magic he sees on them and he has to try and dispell it with his own spells. Or Riven fighting a shadovar soldier and seeing a ring flash and all of a sudden he has super speed or armor skin or his blows start to feel like they come from a ogre.
I'm not saying you have to make the shadovar so strong that you make it seam that it is imposible to defite them, but you should have the shadovar seam to have little tricks up their sleaves that suprise Cale and Riven. After all they are supossed to be a people that have fought archdevils, demon princes and martalgym so beef them up a little bit. I've seen you do it with the drow in Resurection and the sladdi in the Trilogy so I know you can do it.
For instance, say that Cale is facing a shadovar on Sakkors, the battle could go a little something like this.

Cale turns around just in time to see a shadovar drop his invisiblity and point a finger at Cale, lanching a black beam at his heart. Cale dodges to side just in time to avoid the beam. He counters by casting a spell and throwing its dark energy at the shadovar. It is blocked by a disc of darkness that suddenly materializes in front of him. Cale shadowsteps behind the wizard his proximity setting of a protective ward of negitive enery. The shadovar turns aroud mouthing a spell that causes shadows to shape and form claws arounds his hands which he swipes at Cale's head. Cale ducks under the clumsy blow placing his hand on the shadovars chest mouthing another spell that causes the shade to scream in agony as the spell causes wounds to open along his body and twist his organs.

See what kind of fun you can have with them.

P.S. I forgot to say this in my last post but I LOVED the ending, you sure know how to end a book. Congrats.

And you havent answered my questions about Weaveshear.

And I have some questions about Mysteria's Denial so please go to Ch P&1-4 please.
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  00:19:59  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Darkkage,

I'm pleased that you enjoyed the ending. Thank you.

As for the shadovar, I appreciate you sharing your views. You have an interesting take. But at this point, I'm comfortable that I've got them portrayed how I want them.
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darkkage
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  06:22:52  Show Profile  Visit darkkage's Homepage Send darkkage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fair enough.
But if you need any ideas dont hesitate to ask.
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Valaxaxath
Acolyte

12 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2006 :  03:36:29  Show Profile  Visit Valaxaxath's Homepage Send Valaxaxath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I only have one thing to say about these chapters, and the last four sentences in particular..

Biggest...Cock(and by that I mean rooster obviously) tease...ever!!!

You're a bad man Mr.kemp. :p

When you're not regular, eat an elf! They're full of fiber.
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe

Finland
166 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2006 :  12:21:46  Show Profile  Visit Besshalar's Homepage  Click to see Besshalar's MSN Messenger address Send Besshalar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes when can I expect to be able to get the second book in this trilogy ? I mean I doubt I will be able to sleep anymore until I see what happens next.

The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2006 :  15:35:02  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar

Yes when can I expect to be able to get the second book in this trilogy ? I mean I doubt I will be able to sleep anymore until I see what happens next.



Sometime next year and then probably 2008 for the last book, if WOTC keeps the 1 book a year that they've been keeping.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2006 :  13:42:33  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar

Yes when can I expect to be able to get the second book in this trilogy ? I mean I doubt I will be able to sleep anymore until I see what happens next.



Besshalar,

I believe "Shadowstorm" is scheduled for a summer 2007 release (August, I think).
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2006 :  00:40:37  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Last things first, as it were. It is entirely possible for an author to take powerful entities like Mask and Mephistopheles and to use them in a manner that makes them feel like just another character in the book, and that "cheapens" the feeling that someone should get just be seeing the entities name are realizing that they have made a personal appearance. Paul has done an excellent job of introducing scense including such entities, while still managing to portray them as the sigular and awe inspiring creatures that they are suppose to be, from the internal logic of the setting.

I am very intruigued by the appearance of Mephistopheles. I had a feeling that he would make himself know, to a degree, since Magadon had ties to him, but I wasn't expecting a personal appearance. I'm really looking forward to the next book (next summer . . . sigh). For some reason Mephistopheles has always been the most interesting of the arch devils to me, so I'm really glad that he is the one that Paul has chosen to focus on with Magadon's background.

I'm still trying to sort out events here . . . if Mags had not freed the "devil," would he have been lost to the Source, or would he have been able to just die, and cut the Shadovar off from the Source?

There is something almost, reassuring about Riven. You know he is an evil bastard and a killer, but yet he never really tries to hide that fact, nor does he try to dress it up by talking about greater goals or the like. He just kills people for his own betterment, and for Mask. Speaking of Riven, I like the idea that he is more or less unquestioning in his faith, and yet he isn't portrayed as being stupid or willfully ignorant. He is just at peace with the idea that he is going to do as Mask wants him to and that Mask has a purpose, and that purpose is greater than his own desires. I'm not saying that I don't like Cale's "I'm drawn to Mask, and he is part of me, but he pisses me off and I don't trust him" attitude either, just that the two make for a nice contrast, and an interesting point and counterpoint when it comes to faith in general.

I was also happy to see other "Mask lore" make an appearance in the form of the mysterious Telfammar Shadowlords that showed up at the temple. I know there is a lot going on, but I am indeed wondering if Kezef will figure into this whole story at some point in time. Mask certainly has a lot up in the air right now.

Tamlin is an idiot. I can't really say much more than that. I will be interested to see if a paladin and a follower of Lathander takes to advising his father to ally with someone that is allied to the Shadovar. I also have to say that, given that Tamlin knew of the Shadovar's reputation and chose to ignore it, he is every bit as responsible for the deaths from the Kraken attack as the Shadovar are (and I can't beleive I forgot about the kraken until Rivalen mentioned it again at this part). In some ways, Tamlin is now guilty of what he was accused of. Because of his alliance with the Shadovar, a Sembian city was attacked and innocent citizens, along with tons of property (I know the Sembians would point this out) being destroyed. Cale's plan might have caused the deaths of a few guards, who were trained men in a relatively dangerous profession that had made a concious choice to be there, but Tamlin caused deaths that had nothing to do with the conflict at hand. I wonder if it will ever sink in, the depth of cosequence to his actions?

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2006 :  01:25:55  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I realize that I may not have been as clear as I could have been in my post above (especially since I wrote it when I was at work, because I really wanted to comment on the book). First and foremost, I loved this book, and I can't wait to read the next one. This is quite possibly the best cliffhanger I have read in a LONG time.

I was a bit harsh in my pronouncement about Tamlin, and I didn't mean it as any kind of deficiency in the book. I should have said that Tamlin is acting like an idiot. In some ways though, I can understand it. He has been thrust into an extreemly volatile, massive, and confusing political situation, and he really wants to beleive there is an easy fix, at least that is how I took it. Not to mention that I think that he is kind of desperate to be the "hero" that ends this potential conflict quickly, as I think he is still living in the shadow of his father. If Tamlin were instrumental in the salvation of Sembia, who is still going to mention him unfavorably by comparison to his father?

That having been said, Cale's insult to Tamlin about his father was the most devestating thing he could have said to Tamlin at that point in time.

Speaking of comments getting under people's skin, I love the way Riven was taunting the Shadovar bodyguards. No matter how intimidating the opposition, Riven not only remains unflappable, but keeps up his tactics of psyching out his opponents.

In the long run, I think that this situation could be a defining moment for Tamlin. He may yet realize what he has done, and what his allies are capable of, and this may be a big chance for some character growth for him. Even though I think he acted rashly, I do think it will be a fun ride to be along for, and Tamlin does have a lot of potential as a character.


"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Atticus
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2006 :  02:49:00  Show Profile  Visit Atticus's Homepage Send Atticus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, MR.Kemp YOU ARE EVIL! Now I have to wait to Auguest to see what happens!

Moving on, I was reading this post and I thought that I would add my two cents.
Only some shades are best of the best of the shadovar, others are just nobles that became shades because of their class. Im guessing that the realy strong shades are with the army because the shadovar army is based on ability, not class, and all of the officers are shades. For instance the shade with the great sword might be a officer. And even the "weak" shades that guarded Rivilen were able to hurt Cale and Riven pretty badly. Also shadovar use shadow weave not shadow magic and clerical spells are divine wil made manifest, not part of the weave so Weaveshear cant block them. (If Im wrong please correct me) And the reason that Shade Enclave was never conqoured by Devils, Demons, or Martalgyms was because of the quazi-magical items and defences in the enclave, witch dont work outside of the Enclave.

Which brings up a question that I have, will quasi-magical items made in Shade work near other mythallers? or will they not because the mythaller of Shade is made of Shadow Weave?

That being said however, I was a bit suprised that there was no mention of the unbreakable, black glass swords that could cut threw anything, black glassteel armor, or blue dragon allies that is the Shadovar trademarks. Espesily sence they were made such a big deal of in Return of the Archwizards. But that was a different author.
Maybe that is why they werent menchend. (copyright infringment, No!)

Time for my questions, please feel free give me your opinions!

1. In Return of the Archwizards, only the Princes and Haradune have metalic color eyes like Cale, does shade eye color dictate how strong they are?
2. Cales eyes change from normal to gold when he is ether in the Plane of Shadow or during times of emotional stress, but shadovar shades have constint eye color. Is this because Cale is not fully transformed or is it because Cale supposidly became a shade differently then the shadovar?
3. Would this explain why he can shadowstep so many times, because I thought shades could only do it so many times a day?
4. I was told that shadow weave spells are stronger at necromancy and illusion spells and weave spells are stronger at transmutation and envokation, is this true?

Please respond so we can have a discusson.

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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2006 :  06:34:20  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Atticus

Also shadovar use shadow weave not shadow magic and clerical spells are divine wil made manifest, not part of the weave so Weaveshear cant block them. (If Im wrong please correct me) And the reason that Shade Enclave was never conqoured by Devils, Demons, or Martalgyms was because of the quazi-magical items and defences in the enclave, witch dont work outside of the Enclave.


Atticus, the question regarding Weaveshear's ability to absorb divine magic is an open one.

The term "shadow magic" is not intended to be a precise indicator of something reflected in the game's rules. Instead, it is merely a descriptive phrase applied to shadovar magic. Please have a look at my response to Zanan in my Q&A thread regarding game terminology and terminology used by "real" people within the fictional setting.

quote:
Originally posted by Atticus

Which brings up a question that I have, will quasi-magical items made in Shade work near other mythallers? or will they not because the mythaller of Shade is made of Shadow Weave?


That is actually a very good question and one that I raised with some of the loremaster way back when I outlined the first Cale trilogy and we kicked it around a bit then. The answer I have to give you is: We'll have to wait and see.

quote:
Originally posted by Atticus

That being said however, I was a bit suprised that there was no mention of the unbreakable, black glass swords that could cut threw anything, black glassteel armor, or blue dragon allies that is the Shadovar trademarks. Espesily sence they were made such a big deal of in Return of the Archwizards. But that was a different author.
Maybe that is why they werent menchend. (copyright infringment, No!)


Don't be too surprised. There might be a very good reason why the shadovar do not parade around with that kind of armor and weaponry, particularly when their mission is, at least ostensibly, diplomatic. Also, the shadovar have their fingers in many pies, some of which are given novel/book treatment, some of which are not. Resources used for one task cannot be used for another. Telamont may have the dragons, et al. allocated to other tasks, even while Rivalen deals with the "Sembian issue."

quote:
Originally posted by Atticus


1. In Return of the Archwizards, only the Princes and Haradune have metalic color eyes like Cale, does shade eye color dictate how strong they are?
2. Cales eyes change from normal to gold when he is ether in the Plane of Shadow or during times of emotional stress, but shadovar shades have constint eye color. Is this because Cale is not fully transformed or is it because Cale supposidly became a shade differently then the shadovar?
3. Would this explain why he can shadowstep so many times, because I thought shades could only do it so many times a day?
4. I was told that shadow weave spells are stronger at necromancy and illusion spells and weave spells are stronger at transmutation and envokation, is this true?


1. I'm not sure if they reflect relative strength, but it is true that the Princes have metallic colors, whereas ordinary shades have (for lack of a better term) eyes in primary colors.

2. You've got it: Cale is a somewhat different kind of shade than the shadovar.

3. In part, though I've always thought (and mention this in Midnight's Mask, I think, albeit obliquely) that Cale's essentially unlimited ability to shadowstep/walk is a result of his status as Mask's Chosen.

4. That is true, I believe.
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Atticus
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2006 :  07:15:56  Show Profile  Visit Atticus's Homepage Send Atticus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Please have a look at my response to Zanan in my Q&A thread regarding game terminology and terminology used by "real" people within the fictional setting.


Is this in Candlekeep, because I cant find it. Could you post the web address.

quote:
That is actually a very good question and one that I raised with some of the loremaster way back when I outlined the first Cale trilogy and we kicked it around a bit then. The answer I have to give you is: We'll have to wait and see.


Personal opinion, I dont think it should, because while both weaves came from the same sourse, they are different now so they shouldnt effect each other. But if you can make it work like the weave tap, go for it.

quote:
Don't be too surprised. There might be a very good reason why the shadovar do not parade around with that kind of armor and weaponry, particularly when their mission is, at least ostensibly, diplomatic. Also, the shadovar have their fingers in many pies, some of which are given novel/book treatment, some of which are not. Resources used for one task cannot be used for another. Telamont may have the dragons, et al. allocated to other tasks, even while Rivalen deals with the "Sembian issue."


I just mentioned the armor and weapons because all the shades wore them when they went out of the enclave. Made it seem like it was a edict of some kind, so they wouldnt be killed to easily. I mean most shadovar arnt allowed out of the enclave, so it made since to me that shadovar made conditions that had to be followed while out of the enclave.
Also, Is the black glassteel worn by the shadovar true glassteel or some netherse equvalint, if you dont know then tell me what you think.

quote:
You've got it: Cale is a somewhat different kind of shade than the shadovar.


I know you cant say much on the subject, but could you tell me if this issue will be addressed in the Twilight War or are you saving it for later?

quote:
In part, though I've always thought (and mention this in Midnight's Mask, I think, albeit obliquely) that Cale's essentially unlimited ability to shadowstep/walk is a result of his status as Mask's Chosen.


I looked at your stats of Cale and it mentions both Champion and Chosen Templets. What do these templets do? I tried to find out by looking at D&D books and Wizards homepage and I couldnt find out what they do to a charecter. The closest I could find was Elminester's Chosen abilitys of immune to sleep, lightning and fast healing. But Cale dosent seem to have these abilitys(exept fast healing but that is because he is a shade) and couldnt find anything about champions exept the Champion of Meliki, which told me nothing. Do all Chosen and/or Champions have the same abilitys regardless of which god they serve? Can we look forword to some unique Champion/Chosen Cale powers in the future if this is the case?

quote:
I was told that shadow weave spells are stronger at necromancy and illusion spells and weave spells are stronger at transmutation and envokation, is this true?

That is true, I believe.


Is there anything else that you belive is worth mentioning about this subject?
Share your wisdom.
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Krafus
Learned Scribe

246 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2006 :  20:11:14  Show Profile  Visit Krafus's Homepage  Send Krafus an AOL message Send Krafus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, great book! I'm happy to see the Shadovar finally made into dangerous, credible opponents. However, the book has left me with two questions.

1) Didn't Rivalen die in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, at the end of the second book? I know he could easily have been brought back to life, but I'd have exepected to see a mention of it somewhere, if only as reminder from Telamont or someone else that Rivalen has failed before.

2) What happened at the end, when, after Cale used the shadows to teleport himself, Riven and Magadon and they ended up in Cania? Did Mephistopheles or Magadon temper with the magic (the fact that Mephistopheles was apparently waiting for them leads me to believe it's the former)?

Edited by - Krafus on 18 Nov 2006 20:11:52
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe

Austria
159 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2006 :  20:38:10  Show Profile  Visit Braveheart's Homepage  Send Braveheart an AOL message  Send Braveheart an ICQ Message Send Braveheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished the book today and was very intrigued by the cliffhanger (which I expected, it being the first book in the trilogy and so on). I don't know if you have seen or played "Neverwinter Nights: Hords of the Underdark", but Cania is part of the setting in that game. Any chance we will read about the some characters that also appeared in the game or is NWN generally non-canon?

Anyway, I hope the books to follow will be as interesting to read as the first one. Waiting til August 2007 will probably still be torture

Braveheart

Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not."
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2006 :  13:44:42  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus

First, great book! I'm happy to see the Shadovar finally made into dangerous, credible opponents. However, the book has left me with two questions.

1) Didn't Rivalen die in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, at the end of the second book? I know he could easily have been brought back to life, but I'd have exepected to see a mention of it somewhere, if only as reminder from Telamont or someone else that Rivalen has failed before.

2) What happened at the end, when, after Cale used the shadows to teleport himself, Riven and Magadon and they ended up in Cania? Did Mephistopheles or Magadon temper with the magic (the fact that Mephistopheles was apparently waiting for them leads me to believe it's the former)?



Krafus,

First, thank you.

Second, I believe Rivalen did die (or appeared to die) in RotAW. He subsequently reappeared in "Mistress of the Night," so his resurrection or narrow escape was established before "Shadowbred." That said, you may see a reference to those events in "Shadowstorm."

Third, excellent theories on the Cania issue. Your questions will be answered in the first chapter of "Shadowstorm."

Paul
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2006 :  13:45:42  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart

I don't know if you have seen or played "Neverwinter Nights: Hords of the Underdark", but Cania is part of the setting in that game. Any chance we will read about the some characters that also appeared in the game or is NWN generally non-canon?




BH,

I've never played or seen NWN, so any overlap of characters or events would be purely coincidental.

Paul
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Octa
Learned Scribe

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2006 :  17:07:58  Show Profile  Visit Octa's Homepage Send Octa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paul- My compliments on a great great book, I really enjoyed it.

Here are my questions/comments-

1, So it was Yder that shows up as the 'swordsman', and the other Shade prince was Hadrhune? the one with the black staff.

2, So was it just Yder's shadow that showed up, I'm thinking that maybe all of the 'Princes' that Cale interacted with were their shadows, this would explain alot about why the battle was as evenhanded as it was.

3, the absolutely best thing that you did is the realism. Cale and Riven as characters of about 20th level (from your posting here), are used to doing what they want, and having the skill level to pull off just about anything. At 20th level you are just about super human, and you will jump in the fire maybe a little bit too quickly for your own good sometime. Probably there was no one more surprised at the power of the princes of shade than those two.

4, I want to echo a little about what the previous poster said. When Cale figures out Rivalen's gambit and goes back to confront him, the first thing I thought was oh boy he is in big trouble, but I don't think the difference in power level comes through as obviously as it might, with Cale and Riven having that 'oh s#@& we are in big big trouble' moment.
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PaulSKemp
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808 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2006 :  17:44:08  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Octa,

It was Yder. As for what his words to Riven meant, you'll have to wait and see. The other was not Hadrhune but Clariburnus (if memory serves, though I could be mistaken). Oh, and Rivalen was Rivalen, not his shadow.

BTW, keep in mind that Riven and Cale had no particular basis for thinking Rivalen to be all that powerful, so there was no plausible reason, pre-combat, for Cale and Riven to think: "Oh man, we're in trouble." After they were forced to flee, that realization might have dawned on them. Of course, they've got more immediate concerns at the moment.

Edited by - PaulSKemp on 20 Nov 2006 17:51:33
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2006 :  19:06:58  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm still trying to sort out events here . . . if Mags had not freed the "devil," would he have been lost to the Source, or would he have been able to just die, and cut the Shadovar off from the Source?



KEjr,

I missed this question on my first go through.

Mags was not at risk for death for death of the body, but death of the self. The bulk of his self-identity had been subsumed by the Source. He was lost in it. All that remained was the splinter he had cut off to try to save him (Duty) and that portion that he had walled off previously for other reasons (the devilish Mags). The splinter's only purpose was to free the devil so that the devil could reach out to Cale and Riven for help (something the rest of Mags could not do, being consumed with the Source).

I'm not saying that as well as I'd like but does that make sense?
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2006 :  00:53:35  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paul, thanks for the answer. For the most part it was pretty clear that it as about Magadon's psyche and its independance from the Source, but for a few lines it seemed to me that Mags might have been in physical danger from his connection (or perhaps from his disconnection, at that point).

One of the things I really liked was that you weren't sure if our young villaness really did see what she saw or if she didn't. My gut instict is to assume that a lot of what she is seeing is all about her addiction, I do wonder if perahps, even if exagerated, she is seeing something. Of course that's the fun part of having so long to wait between books . . . plenty of time to second guess myself.

Speaking of second guessing myself and also of Magadon, it occurs to me now that perhaps, just perhaps, Cale and Riven aren't literally in Cainia . . . what if they are trapped in Magadon's mind? He has been dreaming of his father and his father's home plane for so long, and his power is so escalated, perhaps they only thought they teleported away, and are just wandering around in Mags' "Devil" dominated mind.

Goodness Paul, but you know how to write a cliffhanger. This almost puts your Skullport cliffhanger to shame . . .

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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PaulSKemp
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808 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2006 :  13:34:46  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Goodness Paul, but you know how to write a cliffhanger. This almost puts your Skullport cliffhanger to shame . . .



Just "almost"?
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Lameth
Learned Scribe

Germany
196 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2006 :  17:14:20  Show Profile  Visit Lameth's Homepage  Send Lameth an ICQ Message Send Lameth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And for the last...
PAUL!!!
Great work!!!
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author

808 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2006 :  17:38:12  Show Profile  Visit PaulSKemp's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lameth

And for the last...
PAUL!!!
Great work!!!



Hey, thank you, Lameth. That's always nice to hear and I'm pleased you enjoyed the novel.
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