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Originally posted by Kajehase

I think what Mace means is that it's a D&D product first and an FR product second.

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Originally posted by Abulon

I think that the first two chapters of Expedition are really good and well written. To me, it captures the feeling of undermountain. Halaster is dead and I think it was a great idea, but just underdeveloped. The rest of the book is a total let down.

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Originally posted by Faraer

What's the advantage supposed to be?

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Originally posted by The Hooded One

Well, in this case my strong suspicion is that four writers were used so as to generate the product in a great hurry, because (I believe) it was moved up in the schedule.

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Originally posted by The Hooded One
I know that Ed's work involved the summary of levels and the presentation of the Yawning Portal (not the starting adventures). I flatly disagree with Skeptic about it being reprinted, because the wordcount made it necessary for Ed to summarize existing levels in new wording (much shorter) and "fill in" all the "blank" levels in as few paragraphs as possible (again, because of space limitations).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd like to see the Manshoon clone that was living with Hally replace him. We actually don't know if that clone is still around, but it would be cool to use him that way. I'd have him grab some of the bits of Halaster's soul, and use that to change all the existing spells and such to be tied to him.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think that's both harsh and misleading.

Incomplete maps and history? Well, what do you expect? This is an adventure, and a generic one, at that. We previously had two boxed sets, and it was pretty much openly stated that those only scratched the surface, so to speak. Can you honestly expect an adventure module to recreate and add to all that information, as well as adding the necessary material for the adventure? There was never any promise to update and include everything already known. I can't see why people are angry that the module fails to live up to a promise that was never made.

As for the adventure itself being incomplete... I've not read it all, yet, but from everything I've read, it is indeed a complete adventure. It certainly leaves the reader wondering about the aftermath of the adventure, but I'd hesitate to call that a failing of the module.

I can't say I'm happy that the adventure was generic, nor am I happy about its outcome. And I'm not happy about the fact that the vast bulk of Undermountain was left untouched and un-updated. However, I walked in knowing that this was the case. I think it is most unreasonable for people to complain that the module didn't live up to their own misconceived expectations.

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Originally posted by Victor_ograygor



If you response is to what i wrote then:


Everybody have a right to an opinion, and that’s mine sorry to say.

Fore a site like this there should be room to say something that isn’t god, and this product is crappy lousy to be honest, and I am not the only one with that opinion.

To be honest the only thing I regret is that I can’t find more polite words that what I have used

Please respect that people can have a different way of seeing things, and lets talk again when you have read it all !

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Victor_ograygor



If you response is to what i wrote then:


Everybody have a right to an opinion, and that’s mine sorry to say.

Fore a site like this there should be room to say something that isn’t god, and this product is crappy lousy to be honest, and I am not the only one with that opinion.

To be honest the only thing I regret is that I can’t find more polite words that what I have used

Please respect that people can have a different way of seeing things, and lets talk again when you have read it all !

Mod edit: Watch the language, people. Profanity is specifically prohibited by the CoC.

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Yes, my response was to your post. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and is free to state that opinion.

However, I stand by my response. If you want the complete history of an area, don't expect to find it in an adventure module. If you want complete maps of an area, don't expect to find them in an adventure module -- unless every single room is detailed in the module. And since we've had hundreds of pages devoted to a small area of the upper levels of Undermountain, expecting a single adventure module to reprise all that info, and add to it, is just plain ridiculous.

This is not a sourcebook, and it was never claimed that it was. Your post indicates that you made the mistake of anticipating a sourcebook. That is what I am responding to -- the complaint that a product is not more than it was always stated to be.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me if people don't like this adventure. I'm not all that happy with it, myself. But I'm not going to complain that this adventure module wasn't a sourcebook and didn't do what a sourcebook does, because I've always known that this was an adventure.

If you don't like something, that's fine. Critique what the product is -- not what it isn't.

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

I don't have this book and I can't judge it as an adventure, but the "major event" at the very beginning (and yes, I too thought it was strange how it was right at the beginning) also happens to be a "major turnoff" for me. I read the rationale for why said event was done the way it was on the WotC Designer Q&A thread, and while I understand what the designers were trying to do, I can't say I agree with how they did it.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Have you a link to that? I should like to know the rationale behind it...

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No, the level parameters didn't really lead us to Halaster's fate. Really, it was just the fact that we were doing an Undermountain product for the first time in almost 10 years, and we felt that it was time to show off some different stories about Undermountain. A lot of folks won't agree with this reasoning, but here it is: I want to hook a new generation of Undermountain fans, not cater to the more particular demands of the existing Undermountain fans. Every now and then the comic books go back and do SpiderMan #1 again (or whatever), and retell the origin story with a new take on it. That's how we look at our "nostalgia" titles.

...

However, there is an important caveat: If we haven't published on some topic in many years, I am much more interested in creating the best "current-game" product inspired by the old material than remaining slavishly loyal to what went before. Again, I understand that's a viewpoint that many of the folks here will take issue with. But I feel that it's important to keep Realms alive and vibrant with a constant influx of new fans who aren't burdened by the weight of twenty years of lore. We make decisions to keep the barrier of entry low and the playability to a non-FR fan high so that more core D&D players will be inclined to give Realms a try.

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