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Originally posted by GothicDan

But couldn't you say about the Shade Hunter, since the Shades are in general (at least the notables) evil as well?

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And I would agree with you, Arcane Delver would have been more appropriate, but in an attempt to squeeze it into Champions of Ruin they probably felt it would be better to link it to one of the Evil Organizations, as well as making "evil" one of the requirements.

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Originally posted by GothicDan


So, it's not required that you be a Shade, but rather 'work against them'.. And be evil at the same time?

That's one of the worst PrC concepts I've ever heard, I think.

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I definitely can't think of one that's worse.

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Originally posted by GothicDan

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And I would agree with you, Arcane Delver would have been more appropriate, but in an attempt to squeeze it into Champions of Ruin they probably felt it would be better to link it to one of the Evil Organizations, as well as making "evil" one of the requirements.

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So, it's not required that you be a Shade, but rather 'work against them'.. And be evil at the same time?

That's one of the worst PrC concepts I've ever heard, I think.

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Originally posted by Ardashir

Well, just one question: why are the Shade Hunters (the Netherese-lore hunting adventuring archaeologists) required to be evil, while the Eldrethh Veluuthra's Justices of Weald and Woe able to be of any alignment? The former are primarily dungeon-delving rogues with a few twists to make them more interesting (IMO), while the latter are racist assassins. Shouldn't they be the ones who are required to be evil?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just finished reading thru the PrCs... And I have a complaint.

A lot of the PrCs I could easily see being used in a variety of different ways. But this book narrows them down to very specific roles, and further mandates that the character be evil.

Now, I can see some tightening down of the focus, but not as much as they've done. The Vengeance Knight, for example, could be used by a lot more groups than just the Knights of the Shield. And Thayan gladiators could be used in any evil society, I think, instead of being limited to Thay.

The alignment thing bugs me, too. I see absolutely no reason to require that Shade Hunters (a kind of FR Indiana Jones) be evil, and there's little in the full write-up to support more than just a tendency to be selfish. A Thayan gladiator could easily be a neutral person/critter just trying to stay alive... And the Justice of Weald and Woe, while not specifically required to be evil, is described as being something only the Eldreth Veluuthra have. But I can easily picture non-EV Justices, and, depending on how it was done, they could even be a champion of the elven people, rather than someone who does elven dirty work.

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Originally posted by GothicDan

...and we don't have any PrCs that focus on -spellcasting- from the back of a winged mount...

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Originally posted by GothicDan

But that really isn't very unique or descriptive, I don't think. It is one of the PrCs I dislike the most, in terms of sheer crunch. And it's rare that I dislike things due to crunch. ;)

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I happen to disagree on this one. I actually like the skymage. A Zhentarim Wizards on a Foulwing makes for a great antagonist. Also, in terms of crunch, the class is quite powerful if you look though it. It has full-caster levels, free scrolls (which means new spells for a spellbook), and a few abilities or bonus feats.

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Originally posted by Archwizard

Prestige Classes should fall into two categories. One is the heavily lore based class tied specifically to a region, institution or group, such as PrCs for a specific clergy (Morninglord of Lathander, Justicar of Tyr, etc.). The second category is composed of more general classes that fill the needs of an archetype or a specific skill that is difficult to do using existing core classes and feats (archmage, eldritch knight, loremaster, tempest). I think we see more of these in Core supplement, since that is kind of the purpose of those supplements.

However, I agree with what has been said previously in the thread. Several of the PrCs in Champions of Ruin fit into the second, more general category, but try to fit the first, more specific category. The Shade Hunter both mechanically and lore wise is very much a generic treasure hunter/tomb delver. The Justice of Weald and Woe mechanically is perfect for any non-nonsense hunter/archer. Probably right at home amongst Shevarash's followers, or even amongst more serious non-elven archers. The Vengence Knight is a fairly decent class for heavy armor specialization, but little ties it to the organization they work for. The same is true for the other classes stated before.

Champions of Valor was a bit better. Although I'm wondering why there's a PrC for Knights of the Flying Hunt but not one for more active and prominient organizations such as the entire militant clergy and followers of Helm or Torm. I still can't make sense of the Triadic Knight (though I absolutely love the idea snd flavor of the class), it was a bit underwhelming with abilities that overlapped and didn't synergized with paladins, who seem to be the main lead-ins into the PrC, it doesn't do much of clerics either. I guess it's possible to have great flavor but lacking mechanics as well.

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Originally posted by Archwizard

Prestige Classes should fall into two categories.

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Originally posted by Archwizard

There could be more categories, someone with more experience in analyzing mechanics might be able to say more.

I do think that the second category general skill/archetype based PrCs can be of use to FR. Designers have been saying how they don't feel writing up more PrCs is helping the setting much. I think a way to alleviate this could be to utilize some Category 2 PrCs (from the Core or elsewhere) and adapt them to the Realms, perhaps with substitution abilities more specific to the Realms. This has been done with the Great Sea Corsair PrC, which was a modified Dread Pirate from the core splat books.

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Originally posted by Ardashir (snip) I've thought of changing the 'Enlightened Fist' (the sorceror-monk from Conmplete Arcane into a Dark Moon Monk PrC). The 'Ascetic Sorceror' Feat from Complete Adventurer sounds like it would go great with them too.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Bane

The reason there is no evil requirement for Justice of Weald and Woe is because it is assumed that the character is a member of the Eldrethh Veluuthra, thus the evil requirement is already taken care of.

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Originally posted by Mentalist

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Originally posted by Chosen of Bane

The reason there is no evil requirement for Justice of Weald and Woe is because it is assumed that the character is a member of the Eldrethh Veluuthra, thus the evil requirement is already taken care of.

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I had the idea that the reason that there was no alignment requirement for the Justice of Weald and Woe was simply because although it is typically adopted by the Eldreth Veluuthra, a character who takes levels in that PrC doesn't necessarily have to belong to that organization. I've thought up a character concept about a CG Justice who has drow as favored enemy, and is mainly concerned with trying to keep the evil in Cormanthor under control.

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