| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 23:45:22
Well, just one question: why are the Shade Hunters (the Netherese-lore hunting adventuring archaeologists) required to be evil, while the Eldrethh Veluuthra's Justices of Weald and Woe able to be of any alignment? The former are primarily dungeon-delving rogues with a few twists to make them more interesting (IMO), while the latter are racist assassins. Shouldn't they be the ones who are required to be evil? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 16:37:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mentalist
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The reason there is no evil requirement for Justice of Weald and Woe is because it is assumed that the character is a member of the Eldrethh Veluuthra, thus the evil requirement is already taken care of.
I had the idea that the reason that there was no alignment requirement for the Justice of Weald and Woe was simply because although it is typically adopted by the Eldreth Veluuthra, a character who takes levels in that PrC doesn't necessarily have to belong to that organization. I've thought up a character concept about a CG Justice who has drow as favored enemy, and is mainly concerned with trying to keep the evil in Cormanthor under control.
See, that works for me. As I said above, that particular PrC could be devoted to anyone who wants to protect elves. It doesn't have to be against humans; the elves have plenty of enemies to choose from. |
| Mentalist |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 07:06:05
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
The reason there is no evil requirement for Justice of Weald and Woe is because it is assumed that the character is a member of the Eldrethh Veluuthra, thus the evil requirement is already taken care of.
I had the idea that the reason that there was no alignment requirement for the Justice of Weald and Woe was simply because although it is typically adopted by the Eldreth Veluuthra, a character who takes levels in that PrC doesn't necessarily have to belong to that organization. I've thought up a character concept about a CG Justice who has drow as favored enemy, and is mainly concerned with trying to keep the evil in Cormanthor under control. |
| Eremite |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 04:03:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir (snip) I've thought of changing the 'Enlightened Fist' (the sorceror-monk from Conmplete Arcane into a Dark Moon Monk PrC). The 'Ascetic Sorceror' Feat from Complete Adventurer sounds like it would go great with them too.
That's my plan, too. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 17:43:32
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
There could be more categories, someone with more experience in analyzing mechanics might be able to say more.
I do think that the second category general skill/archetype based PrCs can be of use to FR. Designers have been saying how they don't feel writing up more PrCs is helping the setting much. I think a way to alleviate this could be to utilize some Category 2 PrCs (from the Core or elsewhere) and adapt them to the Realms, perhaps with substitution abilities more specific to the Realms. This has been done with the Great Sea Corsair PrC, which was a modified Dread Pirate from the core splat books.
As well as the Hin Fist monks, who are adapted from the 'Divine Fist' from Complete Divine.
Myself, I've thought of changing the 'Enlightened Fist' (the sorceror-monk from Conmplete Arcane into a Dark Moon Monk PrC). The 'Ascetic Sorceror' Feat from Complete Adventurer sounds like it would go great with them too. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 04:30:10
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Prestige Classes should fall into two categories.
I thought that too, but I think of it as 3 categories (I added a misc. category)...but all PrCs are a focus/specialization/expansion of a certain aspect of a base class
there are the "general" PrCs that are like the kits in 2E, the pirste, soldier, hunter, etc.
there are the "specialized" PrCs that are tied to or belong to something, like a god, country, organization, etc.
and there are the "new" PrCs that are practically a new class in themselves |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 00:43:15
There could be more categories, someone with more experience in analyzing mechanics might be able to say more.
I do think that the second category general skill/archetype based PrCs can be of use to FR. Designers have been saying how they don't feel writing up more PrCs is helping the setting much. I think a way to alleviate this could be to utilize some Category 2 PrCs (from the Core or elsewhere) and adapt them to the Realms, perhaps with substitution abilities more specific to the Realms. This has been done with the Great Sea Corsair PrC, which was a modified Dread Pirate from the core splat books.
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| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 00:07:09
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Prestige Classes should fall into two categories. One is the heavily lore based class tied specifically to a region, institution or group, such as PrCs for a specific clergy (Morninglord of Lathander, Justicar of Tyr, etc.). The second category is composed of more general classes that fill the needs of an archetype or a specific skill that is difficult to do using existing core classes and feats (archmage, eldritch knight, loremaster, tempest). I think we see more of these in Core supplement, since that is kind of the purpose of those supplements.
However, I agree with what has been said previously in the thread. Several of the PrCs in Champions of Ruin fit into the second, more general category, but try to fit the first, more specific category. The Shade Hunter both mechanically and lore wise is very much a generic treasure hunter/tomb delver. The Justice of Weald and Woe mechanically is perfect for any non-nonsense hunter/archer. Probably right at home amongst Shevarash's followers, or even amongst more serious non-elven archers. The Vengence Knight is a fairly decent class for heavy armor specialization, but little ties it to the organization they work for. The same is true for the other classes stated before.
Champions of Valor was a bit better. Although I'm wondering why there's a PrC for Knights of the Flying Hunt but not one for more active and prominient organizations such as the entire militant clergy and followers of Helm or Torm. I still can't make sense of the Triadic Knight (though I absolutely love the idea snd flavor of the class), it was a bit underwhelming with abilities that overlapped and didn't synergized with paladins, who seem to be the main lead-ins into the PrC, it doesn't do much of clerics either. I guess it's possible to have great flavor but lacking mechanics as well.
I like this observation, I never really thought about the two styles of prestige classes like this. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 22:34:36
quote:
I happen to disagree on this one. I actually like the skymage. A Zhentarim Wizards on a Foulwing makes for a great antagonist. Also, in terms of crunch, the class is quite powerful if you look though it. It has full-caster levels, free scrolls (which means new spells for a spellbook), and a few abilities or bonus feats.
But not many of the abilities are specifically tied to *casters who ride winged mounts.*
Neat abilities? Sure. Not very thematic, though. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 22:05:18
Prestige Classes should fall into two categories. One is the heavily lore based class tied specifically to a region, institution or group, such as PrCs for a specific clergy (Morninglord of Lathander, Justicar of Tyr, etc.). The second category is composed of more general classes that fill the needs of an archetype or a specific skill that is difficult to do using existing core classes and feats (archmage, eldritch knight, loremaster, tempest). I think we see more of these in Core supplement, since that is kind of the purpose of those supplements.
However, I agree with what has been said previously in the thread. Several of the PrCs in Champions of Ruin fit into the second, more general category, but try to fit the first, more specific category. The Shade Hunter both mechanically and lore wise is very much a generic treasure hunter/tomb delver. The Justice of Weald and Woe mechanically is perfect for any non-nonsense hunter/archer. Probably right at home amongst Shevarash's followers, or even amongst more serious non-elven archers. The Vengence Knight is a fairly decent class for heavy armor specialization, but little ties it to the organization they work for. The same is true for the other classes stated before.
Champions of Valor was a bit better. Although I'm wondering why there's a PrC for Knights of the Flying Hunt but not one for more active and prominient organizations such as the entire militant clergy and followers of Helm or Torm. I still can't make sense of the Triadic Knight (though I absolutely love the idea snd flavor of the class), it was a bit underwhelming with abilities that overlapped and didn't synergized with paladins, who seem to be the main lead-ins into the PrC, it doesn't do much of clerics either. I guess it's possible to have great flavor but lacking mechanics as well. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 21:25:39
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
But that really isn't very unique or descriptive, I don't think. It is one of the PrCs I dislike the most, in terms of sheer crunch. And it's rare that I dislike things due to crunch. ;)
I happen to disagree on this one. I actually like the skymage. A Zhentarim Wizards on a Foulwing makes for a great antagonist. Also, in terms of crunch, the class is quite powerful if you look though it. It has full-caster levels, free scrolls (which means new spells for a spellbook), and a few abilities or bonus feats.
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| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 21:16:13
But that really isn't very unique or descriptive, I don't think. It is one of the PrCs I dislike the most, in terms of sheer crunch. And it's rare that I dislike things due to crunch. ;) |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 09:05:25
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
...and we don't have any PrCs that focus on -spellcasting- from the back of a winged mount...
Actually, we have the Zhentarim Skymage from Lords of Darkness, but I think that's the only one that fits this description. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 04:50:51
It's funny that I'm normally the type of guy who wants more specific PrCs and such... These just don't seem to be... Well, well-thought out from a lore point of view. They seemed like they tried to fulfill niches that were vaguely defined at best in the first place, which meant there was little making them intrinsically *feel* like they belonged to a certain culture/tradition/area.
I would have liked to have seen some expansion on older organizations and kits devoted to evil. More Specialty Priests? Awesome. Perhaps a Thayan Griffonrider (obviously a harsh neutral at best, and we don't have any PrCs that focus on -spellcasting- from the back of a winged mount); perhaps a special dedicate of the Twisted Rune, a sort of vaguely undead-related spy and information gatherer... Perhaps something more intrinsic to the Eldreth Veluuthra's dogma represented in mechanics (focusing on bonuses to attack -humans- and such). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 03:42:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Well, just one question: why are the Shade Hunters (the Netherese-lore hunting adventuring archaeologists) required to be evil, while the Eldrethh Veluuthra's Justices of Weald and Woe able to be of any alignment? The former are primarily dungeon-delving rogues with a few twists to make them more interesting (IMO), while the latter are racist assassins. Shouldn't they be the ones who are required to be evil?
I questioned the restrictions for a lot of the PrCs in this one. I really liked the way they wrote up the Prestige Classes, and I liked the classes, too. However, I felt they were too tightly focused...
Quoting myself, from 10 May of last year:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just finished reading thru the PrCs... And I have a complaint.
A lot of the PrCs I could easily see being used in a variety of different ways. But this book narrows them down to very specific roles, and further mandates that the character be evil.
Now, I can see some tightening down of the focus, but not as much as they've done. The Vengeance Knight, for example, could be used by a lot more groups than just the Knights of the Shield. And Thayan gladiators could be used in any evil society, I think, instead of being limited to Thay.
The alignment thing bugs me, too. I see absolutely no reason to require that Shade Hunters (a kind of FR Indiana Jones) be evil, and there's little in the full write-up to support more than just a tendency to be selfish. A Thayan gladiator could easily be a neutral person/critter just trying to stay alive... And the Justice of Weald and Woe, while not specifically required to be evil, is described as being something only the Eldreth Veluuthra have. But I can easily picture non-EV Justices, and, depending on how it was done, they could even be a champion of the elven people, rather than someone who does elven dirty work.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 03:16:09
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
And I would agree with you, Arcane Delver would have been more appropriate, but in an attempt to squeeze it into Champions of Ruin they probably felt it would be better to link it to one of the Evil Organizations, as well as making "evil" one of the requirements.
So, it's not required that you be a Shade, but rather 'work against them'.. And be evil at the same time?
That's one of the worst PrC concepts I've ever heard, I think.
Yes indeed--many people (myself included) are utterly baffled as to why an evil alignment is required for this PrC. Stupid. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 02:23:47
quote:
I definitely can't think of one that's worse.
That makes two of us.
Though I really saw little point of the Evereskan Tombguard, either... |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 02:09:39
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
So, it's not required that you be a Shade, but rather 'work against them'.. And be evil at the same time?
That's one of the worst PrC concepts I've ever heard, I think.
I definitely can't think of one that's worse. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 02:02:21
quote:
And I would agree with you, Arcane Delver would have been more appropriate, but in an attempt to squeeze it into Champions of Ruin they probably felt it would be better to link it to one of the Evil Organizations, as well as making "evil" one of the requirements.
So, it's not required that you be a Shade, but rather 'work against them'.. And be evil at the same time?
That's one of the worst PrC concepts I've ever heard, I think. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 01:59:22
I think they edited out a Fire Knife Assassin PrC... |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 01:33:35
I just took out the book to satisfy my own curiousity and Shade Hunters are definitely NOT shades. They are "a breed of adventurer who lives for the thrill of finding lost treasures"
The Sample Shade Hunter detailed on page 62 is listed as a Half-Elf Rogue 2/Ranger 4/ Shade Hunter 1...no shade template. And as a matter of fact, his favored enemy is: Shades.
And I would agree with you, Arcane Delver would have been more appropriate, but in an attempt to squeeze it into Champions of Ruin they probably felt it would be better to link it to one of the Evil Organizations, as well as making "evil" one of the requirements. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 01:15:04
I only glanced briefly at the PrC yourself, but I though the picture looked very "Shadey," so to speak. But if you're right, then, well, you're -very- right. :)
But it would be a really odd name for the PrC, then. Rather a misnomer, if you ask me. Something more like "Arcane Delver" would have been more appropriate. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 01:07:59
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
But couldn't you say about the Shade Hunter, since the Shades are in general (at least the notables) evil as well?
But, if I remember correctly, the Shade Hunter is not a Shade, it's somebody who hunts for Netherese Artifacts to keep them from the Shades. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 00:49:10
But couldn't you say about the Shade Hunter, since the Shades are in general (at least the notables) evil as well? |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 00:38:44
Well, I think the answers to both are this...
They put the evil requirement in Shade Hunter as a way to fit it into Champions of Ruin. Foolish.
The reason there is no evil requirement for Justice of Weald and Woe is because it is assumed that the character is a member of the Eldrethh Veluuthra, thus the evil requirement is already taken care of. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 23:57:11
I missed the thread, but agree it makes no sense. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 23:54:20
A few posters have commented on this in the past, about a week or so ago in another thread actually, and they all agreed that it made no sense. :) |
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