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dannyfu
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 20:44:55
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hi everyone, i am a new member and i just wanted to throw a topic out there, forgive me if it has been addressed already. i feel that the realms novels are some of the best fantasy books published. some of the older realms books remain in print with good reason, however i am bothered by the fact that some of the older books aren't receiving the makeovers that the drizzt series books are getting. with artists like todd lockwood and adam rex giving new books such amazing covers which helps bring in new readers and have old fans buying new copies, it's amazing to me that "evermeet, island of the elves" and some of the older classics feature covers with ripped fabio-ish elf males and playboy playmate female elves. they are soooo cheesy and outdated.its embarressing! i just think if wizards recognizes that these books deserve a long print run, they should consider making these classics over with some new art. i know i would buy them again
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 21:15:06
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| I wouldn't buy them again and I haven't bought any of the reprinted books with the new covers. Plus, I like the old art and art is subjective anyhow. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Feb 2006 21:33:00 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 21:30:01
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I agree, and just by placing a new cover on an older book, isn't going to change the book. I think this is just for a refresher for the newer FR folks, to go out and spend money on something that has been around for a long time. I still feel that they need to look into the books that are newer but for some reason no longer available unless you go to ebay or such and fork out 40 bucks, ie. the black wolf. wizards, we are giving outlandish amounts of money to others without you getting anything for it, make the re-print and get the money for yourselves, it will save us realms fans also from having to shell out the extra money to make our collections complete Scererar steps down from the soapbox now |
Edited by - scererar on 19 Feb 2006 21:31:22 |
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J D Dunsany
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
180 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 22:31:37
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Stick a powerful evocative cover on something as, well I don't want to be unkind, but... solid?, ever so slightly formulaic?... as the 'Moonshae' trilogy and the phrase 'mutton dressed as lamb' keeps coming to my mind...
Then again, there have been quite a few comments about the fact that the cover for 'Master of Chains', although 'evocative and powerful', doesn't really convey the central character of the novel accurately.
As to Wizards' reprint policy. Well, it's insane. As it happens, I'm one of the 'newer FR folks' that scererar mentions in his post and I'm happy that series like 'The Avatars' series and, for completeness' sake, 'The Twilight Giants' series have been republished, but both those series are relatively easy to find on eBay and other such outlets. Why they haven't reprinted 'Azure Bonds' etc or, as scererar has pointed out, newer novels like the Cities series or the Sembia series is beyond me...
Oh, and while I agree with the essential thrust of Kuje's post, on this particular occasion, I'd take the newer style of art (and, to be fair, cover design - which is perhaps more important than the actual artwork sometimes) over the older any day... |
"How content that young woman looks, don't you think? How content, and yet how flammable." - Lemony Snicket, The Unauthorized Autobiography |
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Renzokuken
Acolyte
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 22:47:48
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| Speaking of "Black Wolf" and the Sembia series, I just found a 'like new' copy of "Black Wolf" at my local Borders. I was shocked to say the least. |
Currently reading: Dark Elf Trilogy (FR) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 00:35:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I wouldn't buy them again and I haven't bought any of the reprinted books with the new covers. Plus, I like the old art and art is subjective anyhow. :)
That goes for me as well... The only reprint FR novels I've purchased with new covers is Elaine's "Liriel" trilogy... mainly because I loved the images themselves of the new editions.
But I wouldn't consider buying any new re-prints with new art. Most of the older FR novels feature cover works by some of my favorite 1e/2e TSR artists.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Feb 2006 00:36:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But I wouldn't consider buying any new re-prints with new art. Most of the older FR novels feature cover works by some of my favorite 1e/2e TSR artists.
That's my story, as well. Besides, why buy an old novel for new art, when I've already got the old novel and could thus get more for my money by buying a novel I don't have? To each his own, and all, but I'll spend money on new novels long before I consider buying new art on a novel I've had for years. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:40:46
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| You have to admit though, Liriel on the covers of the new novels is just . . . well, let us just say I could spend quite a bit of time looking at those covers. Ah, Liriel . . . |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 04:21:43
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| Actually, I've said it before, and I'm a rarity, I like the old Liriel covers. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 05:32:34
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You have to admit though, Liriel on the covers of the new novels is just . . . well, let us just say I could spend quite a bit of time looking at those covers. Ah, Liriel . . .
Oh KEJR...  .
Unfortunately I do not have that luxury .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 06:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You have to admit though, Liriel on the covers of the new novels is just . . . well, let us just say I could spend quite a bit of time looking at those covers. Ah, Liriel . . .
I've not even looked at the new artwork, actually... I've not been impressed by WotC artwork. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 06:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've not even looked at the new artwork, actually... I've not been impressed by WotC artwork.
Even though I mostly prefer the 3e-era artwork, I don't like Todd Lockwood's depiction of Liriel; I prefer her as she appeared on the cover of Tangled Webs. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 07:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What didn't you like about Lockwood's interpretation of Liriel... Arivia?
She looked too reed-thin for me? I'm not sure, honestly; part of the reason might be that Tangled Webs was my first exposure to the Realms, and I just got that image of Liriel burned into my mind while devouring the book. Either way, that is the illustration I think of when thinking of Liriel; the reprints just don't feel right to me. |
Edited by - Arivia on 20 Feb 2006 07:23:34 |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 07:57:15
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Liriel in the new covers has a puffy look to her face that I dislike. While I haven't read the books or her description, judging by typical elf standards, she looks kind of weird as depicted by Lockwood in the new covers. The second characters in the background of each cover look awesome though.
I do like how Lockwood illustrates Drizzt, an improvement from the old and wrinkly version or the rather square jawed human with pointy ears depictions of him on previous covers.
In general I think the new covers are made to have the art look more modern with sharper line work, greater details, more atmospheric color palettes and dynamic lighting. I see it as an attempt to use the art's flashiness to catch attention. Once that is done, the more distinct look makes the books seem less like generic fantasy story #616. And I agree with dannyfu, some of the older covers have a style similar to romance novels that do not quite portray the characters and stories a presented.
On a related note, I can't quite get over some of the obviously 80s hairstyles in the older D&D/FR artwork. Many of the clothing/armor designs also look like they came out of the wardrobes of hair metal bands. I do not fault the artists for that though, they were working with the trends of their times and many pieces from that era are some of the best genre art ever.
The same could be said of today's artwork, you can trace some obvious influences from the "heroine chic, high fashion, model" look (show skin in the right places, but not too much, example: tattered cloth strategically placed) and also the "use sharp lines and shapes in simple yet complex ways to make decorative yet functional arms and armor" style that LotR did so well. |
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dannyfu
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 07:57:29
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| i just think artists like lockwood and such fit the elven physical description better as far as the authors and the core books describe them. i wasn't trying to step on the toes of fans who have (i'm sure) been reading and cherishing these book a lot longer than i have and have a fondness for the tsr days. and i am sure i wouldn't replace my library with up-to-date cover either. although i am a collector and my obsessive complusiveness would have me re-buying my favorites over. can't fight the feeling sometimes! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 11:14:36
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| With regards to the new Liriel, I'm just baffled as to why she looks. Completely. Different. On each cover. On Daughter, she looks African; on Tangled Webs (which is the one I prefer the most), she looks something else; on Windwalker, she looks like Aerie from BG2. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 18:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The same could be said of today's artwork . . .
I think so. The current self-consciously 'edgy' covers look quite as 'dated' and 'generic' to me as the TSR-era ones, and overall I don't like them any better or worse. Neither look matches very well how I see the Realms. |
Edited by - Faraer on 20 Feb 2006 18:13:54 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 21:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The same could be said of today's artwork . . .
I think so. The current self-consciously 'edgy' covers look quite as 'dated' and 'generic' to me as the TSR-era ones...
Heh!
Personally, I have no plans to buy books I already own just to get new cover art. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SheriffJoe
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 22:06:20
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Fortunately for us newcomers to the Realms, we do get, in my opinion, much more interesting artwork than the old books had. I agree they have a cheezy quality to them that doesn't make me want to buy the books at all (which is probably why I DIDN'T buy them back when). However, I would say that the coverart for the books from 2000 on have been amazing and I would rather purchase the newer books than the older ones.
Having said that, I would not REPURCHASE newer books for the art over the older books...unless the older book I had was falling apart.
I, too, would rather see Wizards reprint trilogies where you can get book one and three but not book two, which is out of print and selling for $20 used and in acceptable condition. That is just plain silly.
I found The Finder's Stone trilogy online for a decent price and have thoroughly enjoyed them (well...I'm about 1/4 into Song of the Saurials now). The Moonshaes, which I just purchased (with new covers) are next...if all goes well! |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 08:30:44
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| I for one miss some the so called "TSR" era artwork. Caldwell, easley, and lockwood ( among others) are my favorite fantasy genre artists. The newer art, source book as weel as novels, has a ... new age feel to it that I am not getting. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 13:42:17
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I for one miss some the so called "TSR" era artwork.
Wooly and I have discussed our love for the older TSR artistry and works on more than one occasion here.
For me, and I'm sure it's likely the same for Wooly as well, when I visualise parts of either the Realms or Krynn, the first images to come to my mind are often those crafted by Easley, Elmore and Caldwell... just to name a few.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Feb 2006 13:43:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 14:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I for one miss some the so called "TSR" era artwork.
Wooly and I have discussed our love for the older TSR artistry and works on more than one occasion here.
For me, and I'm sure it's likely the same for Wooly as well, when I visualise parts of either the Realms or Krynn, the first images to come to my mind are often those crafted by Easley, Elmore and Caldwell... just to name a few.
Indeed... In fact, my fave Realms artwork was the cover of FR9 The Bloodstone Lands, which was done by Larry Elmore. And though the skin tone wasn't right for Drizzt, Elmore's cover for The Crystal Shard remains my fave book cover. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 17:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I for one miss some the so called "TSR" era artwork.
Wooly and I have discussed our love for the older TSR artistry and works on more than one occasion here.
For me, and I'm sure it's likely the same for Wooly as well, when I visualise parts of either the Realms or Krynn, the first images to come to my mind are often those crafted by Easley, Elmore and Caldwell... just to name a few.
As do I. :) Which is one of the many reasons I wouldn't rebuy books. Shrug. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 23:23:02
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I like some of the older artwork myself. I DID buy some of the reprints with new covers, but that was only because I didn't own the older printings.
But like I said, I'm not the type to spend my hard-earned money on books I already own. The new Drizzt covers are beautiful, but I already own and have read all the Drizzt novels...and I'm not a die-hard Drizzt fan to begin with. I'm not going to buy the new Drizzt novels just to own them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 09:10:06
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Well met
As to whether it was a wise more or not still bothers me, but I actually sold me original copies of Daughter of the Drow and Tangled Webs after the new cover releases by Todd Lockwood which tied in much better with Windwalker. These covers are outstanding and far superior to the orginals.
I also purchased the rereleases of Songs and Swords, which turned out to be a wise move with the recent news of a sixth book being written by Elaine Although I wouldn't be surprised if WotC rerelease the original five novels again, with new cover art. Needless to say, i'll be getting them if they do 
One trilogy which certainly benefitted by new cover art, as I saw the originals as THE worst FR cover art, is the Twilight Giants Trilogy.
There are a good few others i'd like to see rereleased, The Finder's Stone Trilogy for one. Not just due to a revamp of cover art, but because out of all FR novels, i'd love to see these given attention, and again, released along with Masquerades and Finder's Bane in one set  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 16:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
There are a good few others i'd like to see rereleased, The Finder's Stone Trilogy for one. Not just due to a revamp of cover art, but because out of all FR novels, i'd love to see these given attention, and again, released along with Masquerades and Finder's Bane in one set
... But what about Tymora's Luck?
I'd prefer to see the original trilogy rereleased with the original artwork... I'm not a huge fan of Clyde Caldwell (what is it with that round red gemstone?!?), but I think his stuff is far superior to what's out there now...
It does make me ponder something, though... Rereleasing a novel is basically free money for WotC. Sure, they've got the printing and distribution and advertising costs and all that, but they've already paid for the novel. So the actual content is free for them. They'd already paid for the cover art, too, and as we saw with the old trading cards and some of the 2E supplements, they were only too happy to reuse the artwork.
But they're not reusing the artwork, now... Are they really banking so heavily on new artwork selling an old novel that they'd spend the money to comission this new artwork, which they will only use once? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 16:22:57
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| I don't know about comisioning new artwork, but I would love it if they rereleased Tymora's Luck. I have been dying to read it since I read Finder's Bane, but everytime I find it on e-Bay it seems to be a wee bit more than I'm willing to spend, especially since I am trying to keep up on my current Realms novels as well. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 17:40:08
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Even if the files exist, which they likely don't for anything published before 1990, as you say, it's a chunk of money (which might be needed elsewhere) to pay the printer for a decent-sized and therefore economical run, an investment with uncertain short-term returns (unlike new books) which incurs warehousing costs for the stock as months go by. So far from free money.quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(what is it with that round red gemstone?!?)
It's cabochon-cut! People can point to the gem and say, 'Look! It's cabochon-cut.' |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Even if the files exist, which they likely don't for anything published before 1990, as you say, it's a chunk of money (which might be needed elsewhere) to pay the printer for a decent-sized and therefore economical run, an investment with uncertain short-term returns (unlike new books) which incurs warehousing costs for the stock as months go by. So far from free money.
My point is, they don't have to pay for the book itself. It's already their property. I acknowledged the publishing costs in my previous post.
And, with it being an uncertain investment, why are they putting new artwork on it? They're definitely spending money on that, when they could use the artwork they already own -- and thus, don't have to pay for.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(what is it with that round red gemstone?!?)
It's cabochon-cut! People can point to the gem and say, 'Look! It's cabochon-cut.'
My point on that is that if you look, that round red gemstone is in 95% of Caldwell's art. When I see new Caldwell art, that gemstone is the first thing I look for!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:13:05
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And I'm saying that author payment is just one part of the costs, and that overall republishing a backlist title is usually a worse investment than a new book, but that evidently new cover art makes a better one -- I don't know what Wizards pays for art, but in the RPG business generally it's not that much.
I'd like to see all the good Realms novels stay in print perpetually, too.
I once thought of publishing a series of books called Where's the Baby Jesus?. |
Edited by - Faraer on 24 Feb 2006 18:14:13 |
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Judging books by their covers....sort of.
