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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 21:40:31
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What are the signs of how Realms-authentic Neverwinter Nights 2 is going to be? The first game wasn't, either in feel or in details (I was unsurprised to read one of its lead designers confessing he didn't like Spellfire -- well, you're the wrong person to design a Forgotten Realms CRPG, then).
The environment system is 3D vertex-based rather than tile-based, which means much harder to use, but I'd love to see a well-built Haunted Halls or Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
O powers, tolerate my non-Realms asides.
I'm looking forward to The Lord of the Rings Online -- not so much to play it, because it'll be full of MMORPG players, but to see the creative work its designers do in extrapolating places and quests of Eriador in Middle-earth, a similar task someone running Middle-earth RPGs faces.
I also want to play Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. Haven't played computer games much in years.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 21:45:39
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Last news I heard we discussed in this thread:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5377
I must say after reading the article, I don't expect much more than nominal Realms references (such as a few place names, maybe some creatures). Given that they were more excited about incorporating Warlocks (a class that, while not incompatible, isn't officially recognized in the Realms) I would say, much like NWN its more worried about finding interesting features in the game rules for 3.5 than finding interesting lore to exploit, but I could be wrong. |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 23:04:15
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| I don't see why disliking Spellfire would disqualify you from being the lead designer for a FR CRPG. Spellfire is such a small part of FR that it hardly matters and it would be impossible to find a person that approves with every FR peculiar. |
It's good to be king |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2006 : 23:32:37
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I've no hope that the game will be a fount of Realmslore. If it was designed by Realms fans, though, there's a lot it could do to be Realmslike that wouldn't cost much in development hours.
Spellfire is the Realms work that encapsulates the feel of the Realms better than any other except maybe the Old Grey Box. Its feelings, speech, dynamics, are the Realms. |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 08:47:56
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Well obviously we disagree, if anything I think Spellfire is a good summary in relation to how I feel about Ed Greenwood. When the man creates settings, locales, worlds and history etc it is golden, when he creates major characters he just goes overboard. When was the last time that one of his characters survived by wits alone and not because they were powerhouses with bagloads of magic and artifacts to back them up?
I mean, shouldn't someone be a lead designer on their own merits and not because they disagree with certain game politics? |
It's good to be king |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 10:16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
I mean, shouldn't someone be a lead designer on their own merits and not because they disagree with certain game politics?
Amen. It seems just a bit nonsensical to condemn a lead designer of a computer game unfit because... uhm, he happens to disagree with your reading tastes? The attitude of "if you don't like Ed Greenwood, then you can't like FR" has always baffled me a great deal. Yes, he created the world, and designing locations and the like is very much, IMO, his strongest point. But as far as novels go, well, he's not the only FR novelist, as much as some fans of his consider him to be on a whole different literary plane or something. The feel, speech, and dynamics of very many of them don't even remotely resemble EG's, let alone the flavor of prose and characterization. And you can't expect them to, especially when some write like bad fanfic writers who don't bother researching details (brown-haired Dove, black-haired Amlaruil, anyone?).
Of course, my opinion's colored: I only read the novels and play the video games without ever having touched the PnP side of things. (Largely because, well, I've no one to play it with, and because roleplaying isn't really my cup of tea, online or offline.)
Out of curiosity, though, Faraer, can you link me to the interview or developer diary where the NWN lead designer lists his favorite/least favorite Realms books? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 21:17:49
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I think it was David Gaider on the Bioware boards.
It's possible to dislike Spellfire but like the Realms overall. But so much of the structure and nature of the Realms is present so strongly in Spellfire that the chances are good that if you don't like it (and I don't mean 'have some criticisms of it'), you aren't in sympathy with the Realms in general, and how it feels. In any case, that's the case here, or at least I got the impression from what this designer said over multiple posts -- and from how the NWN campaign was designed. Liking Spellfire is not a make-or-break thing about whether you get the Realms, just a really good yardstick.
Vvornth, I won't get into a general discussion about Ed's writing, but the 'powerhouses with bagloads of magic and artifacts to back them up' are not Ed's favoured protagonists, but the ones TSR and Wizards asked him to write about. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Jan 2006 21:18:17 |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 21:52:57
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quote:
It's possible to dislike Spellfire but like the Realms overall. But so much of the structure and nature of the Realms is present so strongly in Spellfire that the chances are good that if you don't like it (and I don't mean 'have some criticisms of it'), you aren't in sympathy with the Realms in general, and how it feels.
That sounds overly dogmatic. |
It's good to be king |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2006 : 22:41:54
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| Supposing, and having it confirmed by experience, that someone's feelings about a thing that is very X -- written, in this case, to exemplify X -- correlates strongly with how they like X is not dogmatic. |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 02:12:04
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| Yes it is. You are making a "yardstick" to follow on a matter of personal opinion. "Experience" as well is personal, as witnessed by this thread no less, not something universal. |
It's good to be king |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 04:53:28
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I think a better indication is looking for information on the Bioware sight about where the minds of the various creators are at. One of the things that I noticed is that when the home campaign of some of the Bioware principals was discussed, it became apparent that while they did indeed play in the Realms, they had no issues about destroying large swaths of it. Still, that is no indication that they don't know the Realms, just that they have a tendancy to allow MAJOR changes during a campaign.
But even in Baldur's Gate, which is generally much more well recieved in terms of being in Realms flavor, it looked to me that they were at least as interested in implementing some of the "hot new" things in the generic rulebooks for 2e as they were incorporating Realmslore. I just think that since Baldur's Gate and its sequel(s) had a more compelling story line and characters, it was easier to ignore the Realmslore issues in them. Neverwinter Nights was concered with making a definative 3e CRPG first and foremost, and then they started tacking on Realms bits, but with the less "inspired" storyline and really uninspiring henchmen, rather than deeper party members, the Realmslore gaps were glaringly obvious.
Unfortunately, from what it looks like in the PC Gamer article (see my link above) it looks like Obsidian is going to continue this trend because they are more excited about implementing followers, fortresses, and the Warlock class, then mentioning that they are working with any Realms authors, for example.
But hey, I could be wrong. Still, even in the golden days, think about this: Was Demogorgon ever really a major Realmsian villain? |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 05:35:27
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Well, I'm pretty sure the crew of the Realmsmaster would say he/she/it was a major villain |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 07:18:20
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All things being equal, would you hire someone who disliked (was out of sympathy with) Dragons of Autumn Twilight to write a Dragonlance game, or The City of Towers to design an Eberron game? Seems common sense to me, but feel free to think differently. (Please don't, on the other hand, make assumptions about which elements of an author's books are their choice and which required by the publisher.)
That is, if it's a priority for the game to be an authentic representation of the particular world. KnightErrant, could you get me the link that mentions those home campaigns? Of course you can never be sure that concerns expressed in promotional material are in earnest or calculated to what the publisher or the audience is thought to want. But it's unfortunate that (via a complex history) licensees of Realms CRPGs are not compelled to be as faithful to the source material as the designers of The Lord of the Rings Online seem to be trying to be. It'll be interesting to see whether more care is taken with the Eberron licence.
I agree the Baldur's Gate games weren't greatly Realmsian either. And this is stuff that doesn't take the hundreds of man-hours needed to implement modern graphics, animation, AI, and other tech stuff. It's partly the widespread problem that because computer games cost so much money to produce, they have to appeal broadly to make money, so their design has been very conservative in the last decade, with properties fitted around formulas of how a particular game genre is supposed to be. Not a good sign for how a Realms movie would turn out. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 07:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Supposing, and having it confirmed by experience, that someone's feelings about a thing that is very X -- written, in this case, to exemplify X -- correlates strongly with how they like X is not dogmatic.
Experience's not absolute, and the plural of "datum" is neither "experiences" nor "anecdotes." :P
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But even in Baldur's Gate, which is generally much more well recieved in terms of being in Realms flavor, it looked to me that they were at least as interested in implementing some of the "hot new" things in the generic rulebooks for 2e as they were incorporating Realmslore.
Well, yeah, but some FR novelists are pretty keen on throwing in as many new things as possible. A party of half-golem, song dragon, and arctic dwarf all at once? A character who has got "shadowdancer prestige class" written all over him?
quote:
Neverwinter Nights was concered with making a definative 3e CRPG first and foremost, and then they started tacking on Realms bits, but with the less "inspired" storyline and really uninspiring henchmen, rather than deeper party members, the Realmslore gaps were glaringly obvious.
Agreed. The first NWN OC was a travesty, the second one barely better; the HotU OC is the only one that's actually well-done. But I don't think it's a lack of Realmslore/feel exactly; it's more a matter of their trying to make the game and Aurora Engine receptive to player-created modules and online play, resulting in an utterly generic feel for everything. In HotU, they focused more on creating a singleplayer campaign, tailoring the new tilesets and such to suit that, and the result is much more enjoyable.
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Unfortunately, from what it looks like in the PC Gamer article (see my link above) it looks like Obsidian is going to continue this trend because they are more excited about implementing followers, fortresses, and the Warlock class, then mentioning that they are working with any Realms authors, for example.
Well, how Realms-authentic do you consider the Icewind Dale games?
Anyway, for what it's worth, from what I've seen in KotOR2 and comparing it with its Biowarian predecessor, Obsidian was actually more in-tune with the Star Wars canon than Bioware was, despite the glaring flaws in the game.
Edit because, oops, I'm stupid and misquoted. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 09 Jan 2006 09:53:06 |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 10:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
All things being equal, would you hire someone who disliked (was out of sympathy with) Dragons of Autumn Twilight to write a Dragonlance game, or The City of Towers to design an Eberron game? Seems common sense to me, but feel free to think differently. (Please don't, on the other hand, make assumptions about which elements of an author's books are their choice and which required by the publisher.)
I know next to nothing about Eberron but there's a number of errors with equating Dragons of Autumn Twilight with Spellfire. DoAT was the genesis for the entire Dragonlance setting whereas Spellfire is an interlude in FR at most, it's nothing that will make or break the setting if you don't like it as in my case. DoAT didn't have to concern itself with fitting into a setting or D&D rules but the setting and the rules where adopted to fit the book.
Also Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman are authors first and game designers second. Their skill in writing prose is far higher than Greenwoods. |
It's good to be king |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 16:03:15
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Ideally, Ed would have consulted heavily on Neverwinter Nights, as he was to for the Fireworks TV series, and it would have been designed by people who loved the Realms. Instead its lead writer was so out of sympathy with Ed's work as to recommend people not to read it. That's well into farce, by anyone's reckoning.
My point holds for any of Ed's books and any of Margaret and Tracy's, the creator of a thing being the single main standard for it -- which is axiomatic, and independent of what you or I think about the work. Spellfire -- written, published and kept in print to exemplify the Realms, despite your attempt to marginalize it -- is just the starkest example in my view.
The Chronicles are Dragonlance's central story, something the Realms by design doesn't have. In other respects Ed has been a good deal more central to the original and continual creation of his world than Margaret and Tracy, two of several people who conceived Krynn for TSR.
The Chronicles were novelizations of a series of AD&D modules, so they certainly did have to fit with an adapted set of AD&D rules; the Realms was conceived before D&D and later voluntarily conformed to its magic and monsters. As for your last point, in objective rather than personal measures, Ed is a professional author who's published novels outside the world he's best known for just as Margaret and Tracy have. |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Jan 2006 16:17:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 16:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
Also Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman are authors first and game designers second. Their skill in writing prose is far higher than Greenwoods.
Though I'm a huge fan of Weis and Hickman, and not such a huge fan of Ed's fiction, I will still disagree with this statement. Each author has their own individual style. Just because a person does not like the style an author uses, it does not mean that that author is any more or less skilled than any other.
I'm a person who really doesn't care for the book Spellfire. But I think it's obvious to most people that I love the Realms. I don't see those two points as being linked.
And for what it's worth, I'm not sure that discussions about authors really belong in a thread about a CRPG. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 16:15:38
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Wooly, liking any given Realms book is linked to liking the Realms, no? But the kind of 'dislike' I'm referring to, as I tried to make clear and as you can see, is a broad, scathing, unsympathetic distaste -- unlike yours.
This isn't the conversation I meant to have! But surreal as the need is, I'm going to rebut attempts to marginalize Ed Greenwood's importance in the Realms in my own thread on a Realms message boards that he posts to. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 16:36:41
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| Feh, I submitted a post, reloaded and then saw Alaundo's post. I'm taking it elsewhere. (Though I can't quite see where it's getting heated. It's been perfectly civil so far, and if anything remotely resembling a debate is forbidden, then uhhm...) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 09 Jan 2006 16:38:49 |
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Taliferno
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2006 : 00:55:28
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New screenshots are out for NWN2 here:
http://gamebanshee.com/news/static/EEFyyyAkAFyIMwFwHP.php
As for its realms accuracy...well they included the tears of selune which I forgot even existed.
PS David Gaider works for Bioware (who made NWN1) and not Obsidian (who are making NWN 2). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2006 : 01:59:05
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Wow . . . an overland map! That means there might not just be the idea that a town is "two screens" away. And the ogres and trolls are about a 1000% better than the models in NWN. I have no idea about the game story line, but the engire updates look like they are coming along nicely.
Helm's Hold is on the overland map . . . I wonder if they will reverse the travesty of destroying it in the OC of NWN, or if its just going to be a haunted ruin in this game. |
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Malarick
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 00:35:36
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Well that is the first I have seen of NWN2 and I can tell you I am really excited about this now!
What with the let downs of other D&D releases, and the bad news about DDO!
NWN2 looks to reclaim the crown yet again! |
Malarick
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 15:58:03
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| It simply looks beautiful....... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2006 : 22:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
What are the signs of how Realms-authentic Neverwinter Nights 2 is going to be? The first game wasn't, either in feel or in details (I was unsurprised to read one of its lead designers confessing he didn't like Spellfire -- well, you're the wrong person to design a Forgotten Realms CRPG, then).
For NWN2, you might have better luck with the free custom modules created after the release. I have known some of the NWN1 authors of mods to take canon seriously, and vigorously debate which forests have Duskwood. |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2006 : 15:19:45
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Here's some quotes from an interview with Ferret Baudoin (Lead Designer of NWN2) at http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/neverwinternights2_i2_2.phtml
quote:
AT: Are we going to see a comeback of some prestige classes from the NWN expansion packs (such as the Assassin, Arcane Archer, Pale Master, Champion of Torm, Red Dragon Disciple, etc.)? Can we expect to see a few new ones?
Ferret: One great thing with starting with the Aurora engine is that keeping the prestige classes from Neverwinter Nights and its expansions was doable. They still needed some work to update them for 3.5, but we got all of them for NWN 2. Plus, we've added some prestige classes that should make the fans very happy. We added prestige classes that allow spellcaster characters to continue their spell progression, which makes prestige classes far more tempting for casters. We've also worked closely with Wizards of the Coast to make a brand new prestige class specific to our game that they'll later put in their books (as a D&D geek that was such a rush to work on :). More details on that class will be released in the future.
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AT: We're interested in some of new races and sub-races that will make an appearance in the game. Tell us more about that.
Tony: Some of the new races and sub-races featured in Neverwinter Nights 2 are Top Secret for the time being. However, I can reveal some of them. If you will please bow your head a moment in respect for the many Harpers who died to provide you with the information I am about to impart…
Sun Elves, also called gold elves, hail from Evermeet and therefore are less common in Faerun than moon elves. They stand apart from other folk, and even other elves, in part because of their haughtiness, and in part because of their bronze skin. Most sun elves lead a very civilized life of study and contemplation, which serves to sharpen their minds, but leaves their bodies soft.
Wood Elves, in contrast to the civilized sun elves, are more reclusive and solitary. They are not as withdrawn from society as the nearly feral wild elves, so it is rare, but not unheard of, to see wood elves venture from their homes in the High Forest. Wood elves are uncommonly strong for elves, but also smaller and less intuitive than most elves.
Drow are also called dark elves, they descend from the ancient Illythiiri, cursed with dark skin for allowing themselves to be corrupted by the evil goddess Lolth. Most drow dwell deep in the Underdark, in great cities such as Menzoberranzan. Drow who inhabit the surface world often do so not by choice, but because they, or their sires, were cast out from drow society. Living underground has made the drow slight in stature, but for generations the drow have selectively bred themselves for increased reflexes, wits and personality. These traits they feel are vital to their survival in the Underdark.
So there's going to be a new prestige class in NWN2 that will be later put into the books and all of the main elven subraces are in. SWEEEEEET   !!!!! |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 19:37:10
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| Personally I cant wait for this game to come out...its the next best thing to pen and paper and I still often lose myself in the game for hours. Ive been saving money for a computer thhat will run it for several months now. I rarely play games at all anymore, but I wouldnt wanna miss out on this one. |
"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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Cyric-The-Insane
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 22:17:28
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All I will say is.. Hopefully NWN2 has a toolset that is stunning/flexible enough that I can make my own worlds that are accurate.
On that note..
The lead designer of NWN2 is a huge mech fan and his favorite RPG is Ultima.. Dear AO save us..  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 22:22:58
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| So we'll have a version of Warmachine where we have a room that forces us to kill children? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 23:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Ideally, Ed would have consulted heavily on Neverwinter Nights, as he was to for the Fireworks TV series, and it would have been designed by people who loved the Realms. Instead its lead writer was so out of sympathy with Ed's work as to recommend people not to read it. That's well into farce, by anyone's reckoning.
I actually sent Mr. Gaider a PM about that, politely disagreeing with him. I didn't think it was fair for him to act as if he could speak for everyone about Spellfire--I know some people hate it, but other people love it too, so it's probably accurate to say that feelings for it are mixed, not universally loathing.
To my dismay, his response to me was more defensive and snide than I had expected. But it wasn't his opinion that upset me, it was his attitude.
Anyway, do realize that Gaider works for Bioware, and NWN2 is being developed by Obsidian, which is a different company. :) |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 22 Feb 2006 00:27:31 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 04:20:10
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Yeah, it was the attitude: you can do OK work in a setting you're not personally fond of, but not if you have scorn for some of its basic works (same would apply to the Old Grey Box or Volo's Guide to the North, etc.) and tenets (as in other posts where Gaider heaved up anti-Realms canards). He clearly didn't get the Realms, and that post was, to me, simply the starkest sign of that. (Plenty of people like Spellfire, or it wouldn't be in print after 18 years.)
I think loving Ultima is a great sign: the Ultimas were groundbreakingly thoughtful and (VII especially) some of the most interactive game/worlds ever made. |
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Neverwinter Nights 2
