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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 06:36:21
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Just reading a thread over at Enworld and it seems that fairly large number of DMs over there dont allow there players open slather access to spells outside of the PHB ie The player has to research it or find someone whose already developed it.
Do any Candlekeep scribes enforce something similar?
Incidently the old FR Adeventures source book listed rarity for a large number of Arcane spells into Common, Uncommon and Rare
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 06:58:23
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I don't restrict access to spells, since (believe it or not) many spells in non-core books are reasonably balanced.
Yes there are exceptions to this statement, but I've yet to find a non-core (esp. from a 3rd party publisher) spell any more unbalanced than 3.0 Haste or Harm.
I do expect my players to either research, adventure-to-discover, or pick up as part of their 'two spells per level' any non-core spell they'd like to use in game, just like I would expect for a regular core spell.
I also don't enforce any rarity concept because I think it breaks the spirit of the game (or at least the 3rd Edition spirit).
Now this flies right in the face of previously established 2nd Ed (1st Ed?) lore that says there are spells that only so-and-so Chosen or whomever knows/can cast, but I think that lore is far too restrictive and emphasizes NPCs over PCs, so I don't use it.
That said I don't do my players any favors in game: if I use a (non-core) spell they've never seen in game or read about outside of game, I won't point out the spell and the book I found it in. Scratch paper notes and a firm "if you want it, you find it on your own" attitude keeps things balanced.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 08:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I also don't enforce any rarity concept because I think it breaks the spirit of the game (or at least the 3rd Edition spirit).
*chuckle*
I guess that makes you a LYNX DM 
I dont believe that most Wizards just share the spells theyve created with just anyone, after all rivial wizards could use their spells against them. They'd only allow those who are some how allie or willing to pay access to their spells.
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 10:47:34
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As a house rule, I don´t permit that they start with any non-core (non-PHB) spell.
If the arcane ones want to learn a new spell that came in another book that is´nt the Players Handbook, then they have to start to dig it out in old tomes, keeps of lore, old wizards, etc.
The same goes to the priests. If they want to learn a new "prayer" that don´t exist in the PHB, they will have to search for and older cleric, or a specific book of prayers, to learn how to pray for that specific spell.
This help me in two ways: first, balancing the distribution of magic in my campaigns - and puting the players to sweat a little to gain the spells  ; and second, this help me creating great subplots only in the searching for a new spell. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 12:05:28
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Both of the campaigns in which I participate only allow PHB spells to be selected as a Sor/Wiz gains new levels. Spells from other sources must either be discovered in spellbooks or scrolls, or must be researched by the wizard/sorcerer, which uses up a lot of money.
Although it's burdensome on the beltpouch, I like this rule. In the campaign I DM, our dwarven wizard is currently building a tower in Heliogabalus. Owing to the harsh winters, a Darsson's Fiery Furnace spell (Shining South) would allow the tower to have heat year-round without fireplaces or other sources of heat. But to cast the spell, he must find a copy and learn it (or have someone else do it for him), which presents the possibility of an adventure hook.
I play a rogue/wizard in a Cormyr campaign, and would love to learn the distract assailant spell (from Complete Adventurer) to assist me in my sneak attack opportunities, but I can't afford the research presently, which gives me more motivation to go out, kill things and take their stuff. It gives goals and ambitions to the character, which I greatly enjoy. |
"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
-St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 13:25:17
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Exactly, Brother Ezra!
And this is tightly united with the core concept of the adventuring wizard: to make money to spend in his "monetary crashing" searchs of magic lore.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 14:47:06
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For any non-named spell in any book (aka not Simbul's spell trigger, et al), I generally allow my players to take spells that are listed in the book.
One rule exception to this is if the spell is clearly developed by a race outside of the creator's own. Example being letting players take Lizard based spells.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 17:35:40
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The games i play in, all spells in PHB are relatively easy to get. Any spell out side of that, requires going to specific areas where the spell is more common.
If the spell is in a regional book, the player must go to the region ot learn it.
Or when in doubt, just make your own. Thats more fun in my opinion anyway. I love creating spells.
One of the best series that i have come across for unique ability is the Terminal Velocity I-IX series. Where the spell drops a creature plucked from the countryside from increasing heights upon your foe.
The entertainment value of droppong a surprised and howling ogre on your archnemisis is not to be underestimated.
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Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 17:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
For any non-named spell in any book (aka not Simbul's spell trigger, et al), I generally allow my players to take spells that are listed in the book.
One rule exception to this is if the spell is clearly developed by a race outside of the creator's own. Example being letting players take Lizard based spells.
C-Fb
Exactly how I do it.
For those scribes here who use another system: If a player took the Collegiate Wizard feat(page 181 of Complete Arcane), would you allow them access to a larger group of spells? Would you dictate the extra spells they know as ones that are appropriate for the organization they belong to? |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 18:03:08
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| I let players take any core spells they can. For non-core spells, they have to discover them through scrolls, enemy spellbooks, or allies with these spells. |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2005 : 23:16:38
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| I say it all depends. My team has a couple house rules, well actually lots and lots of them, you could almost make it a new source book For spells and creating items with spell effects from sources out side the core books, I usually look at the spell and if it seems that it could be a "common" enough type of spell, fine, if not I see some researching, or quests involved for the group. other ways I have introduced or let a player get a spell of some unusual sort, is by capturing spellbooks during the course of an adventure. As I am sure all of you get exited after clearing that Lich's tower after 2 days of near death experiences, and stumble across some old dusty tome, with a couple lost or forgotten spells/ scrolls inside. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 00:46:03
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| I'd never really thought about this question. Having seen this and given it, ooh, thirty seconds' thought, I think I'll introduce something to stop the current free-for-all that exists in my game. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 00:58:04
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| Im also thinking of doing something simliar for PrCs ie the character has to find a tutor with levels in that PrC before they can take levels in it |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 01:44:28
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We did used to have a free for all in Reefy's game, I know we limited things in our current game a bit more.
I.e. character created in this campaign was a Drow wizard/fighter, and we ruled he could only have access to spells from the players handbook, magic of faerun, or the underdark book.
The one's that I'm not sure about are ones named after a person. It's hard to tell whether it's so named because only that mage uses it, or whether it was originally created by him and has since spread to be very popular |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 02:28:25
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I usually allow the PHB spells to be fairly well available, though with wizards its a lot easier to control what they run into and have access to. Sorcerers either have to stick with PHB spells, or have to see a spell from outside them in a spellbook or being practiced by another mage of some sort.
I also limit clerics to the PHB spells, and if they are interested in other spells from other sources, they have to either find a prayer book that explains the new spell, or learn it from a priest that knows how to ask for the particular spell. No one has played a favored soul yet, but I would limit them in the same manner as sorcerers above.
My take is that the named spells are those that are widely known to have been originated by a given wizard, and the ones that appear in the PHB are associated with a given mage or known by that name, but have come into popular use.
I will say though that it would be cool to see a rarity table the the one in the Forgotten Realms Adventures book. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 08:05:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I dont believe that most Wizards just share the spells theyve created with just anyone...
...of course, I don't either.
In my campaign the players have offered to trade spells with other NPC mages they've befriended/aided in some way. They've also paid handsomly for spells they really needed but didn't have access to at the time.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2005 : 16:56:04
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I come from the mindset that players and NPC's both end up killing wizards. From these they acquire spellbooks. Many times they only want a single spell (maybe 2) from said spellbook, so why keep the whole thing? They scribe said spell(s) into their own spellbook and sell the acquired spellbook. Why? They need cash. However, I don't sell them for near the profit that the PHB says to sell for, rather I sell them for 1/10th the normal profit (i.e. 5 gp/spell lvl). Now, if they want to buy a spellbook, magic shop owners just don't like having wizards hanging about scribing spells from their books. Therefore, they'll gladly sell you an ENTIRE spellbook that has the one or two spells in it that you want... if you buy the whole book, and each spell costs 1/5th of the price in the PHB (i.e. 10 gp per spell lvl). At the front of their store they keep a ledger that just lists what spellbooks they have and what spells are in each book (erasing said entry when a book is sold)
Therefore, if a player says he wants X spell and I don't feel that it should necessarily be some rare or regional spell (even if it came from a regional book, it may have the feel of a spell that others in other countries might develop or acquire), I will then take a 2d4+1 and roll it to see how many levels of spells are in the book. If this roll does not reach high enough to have the spell their interested then its time for research rules to kick in (i.e. I roll a 4 and 1 <thus lvl 6 is highest lvl spell in book>, then if the player wants a 7th lvl spell its time to do research because no shop has what he's looking for). I then take a d10 and roll it to see how many spells of each level are in the book (quickly done for each lvl). I then roll 1d4-2 to determine how many spells at each level are "non-PH" spells (quickly done for each level, although I make it at least a 1 for the spell level he's interested in). I then let the player who is interested pick these various other spells for himself (for instance, he wanted a 5th lvl spell, but the rolls say there there's also a 6th lvl, 2 3rd lvl, and a 1st lvl non-PH spell).
This gives the player the ability to prepare for later levels by having some of the spells they know they'll want already in their libraries. Of course, it also means that they'll be paying decent cash to get those spells at lower levels (you want one 3rd lvl spell, but you have to pay for 7 1st, 4 2nd, 6 3rd, 5 4th, and 7 5th lvl spells, as a for instance). It also helps explain why I give them auto-access to any PH spell they want to scribe (I assume they bought it at some point). In doing all this, I'm also not having to design a spellbook... I'm just playing with the numbers. I then let the player be creative and do all the research of what they'd like. I've only recently started doing these systems (after one of my players pointed out that he was rich for getting 3 minor NPC's spellbooks which would sell for like 6500 gold EACH since spellbooks were selling at 50 gp/spell lvl per spell in the book <and I had like 20 1st, 20 2nd, 10 3rd, and 10 4th lvl spells in it>.... I was never a stickler for exactly 100 page spellbooks and just put whatever spells I thought the guy would have).
Using the above example, the players would get said spellbooks off an NPC (whether its 3 books, 6 smaller books, who cares). They could then sell them at 650 each. This gives them 1950 gold. They want a new 4th lvl spell though... so they go into town and buy a book with 7 1st, 4 2nd, 6 3rd, 3 4th lvl and 5 5th lvl spells. It might have an extra 2 2nd lvl spells and a 5th that the character gets to pick that he doesn't already have. He ends up paying for 70 levels of spells at a cost of 700 gp. Of course, the character then turns around and sell THAT book back for 350 gp when he's done with it. This doesn't break the character, and it explains another thing in my campaign... why is the magic shop owner willing to buy YET ANOTHER SPELLBOOK AND PAY FOR ANOTHER COPY OF MAGIC MISSILE.... why, because he'll give you 5 gp for that copy of magic missile and resell it for 10 when he sells the whole book. Then he'll buy the book BACK from you again at half cost and resell it to someone else for another 700 gp.
In the end, this makes the need for magical research less common at lower levels (otherwise most wizards would be too old to ever adventure between making items and scribing spells). However, once they get to the upper levels, their chances of finding those upper level spellbooks are rarer... so then they have to start researching... which fits the idea that more powerful wizards spend a lot of time in research. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 16:31:42
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(brushing dust off this scroll)
I can't help but compare the magic shop merchants described in the above post with certain games/hobby shop merchants I've frequently encountered in RL, at least back in my younger Realms adventuring days. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 18:24:47
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Looking at all the above posts, I'm suprised people have been sooo stingy (for lack of a better word). In our campaigns, we've been very monty haul with non-core spells and this espically goes for classes that automatically know those spell like the Druid, Cleric, and Paladin.
Though I'm getting my notes ready to run a v3.5 game soon set in the Moonsea region and I wonder if this is something I want to incorporate. I've already added in the point-buy system for gaining abilities (something that I was generous with) and I'm limiting what magical items are going to be in what communities. So I think this might be something I'll add too. Just to piss'em off a bit |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:09:14
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Well, the bulk of this scroll was written a few years (and many sourcebooks and novels) earlier ... 2E-styled thinking had a bit of a stronger influence then. Back then even a Continual Light variation which glowed a different colour was a bigger deal, along with the special formula for the inks and quills needed to scribble it into your spellbook. Many magics were indeed rare and exotic and there was good merit in limiting their availability. Rare spells (including most of the very best ones written in the PHB) were a real treasure. Today, the general store sells a hundred different things that smoke and waver and are inscribed with ever-shifting glowing runes (to customers who often look much the same). Spellcasting is just another easy option that pretty much anybody can practice on the side instead of only being available to the disciplined elite after many years of rigorous study. Things are now far more standardized, and today there's hardly any good excuse to prevent players from ordering their spells and magic items from a generic catalogue.
I've extensively played both approaches and found that neither one is better, btw. They both have their merits, though of course it's generally best to keep things consistent within editions so that "old school" PCs aren't always at a disadvantage against "modern" monsters. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:02:00
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we use different rules, but it depends on the character's story, the arcanist in the current campaign started with one spell, and that he ''stole'' from a fey fair in the Moonshaes
I don't allow even PHB spells, deciphering and copying spellbooks taken from some dead mage's cold hands is much harder |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 02:29:49
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| It's not 2E-styled thinking, it's Realms-styled. Wizards' drive to find old magic, to create new and exclusive spells, the storied rarity and preciousness of old spellbooks -- as in Pages from the Mages -- and scrolls, the passing of magical secrets to companions and apprentices and lovers -- all integral to the Art as Ed has built it, and it's driven events and magical careers. Any-spell-you-like is a rules artefact. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 03:23:05
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Nostalgia is great, but it's just not what it used to be.
I loved the "old" Realms, it's a setting with a lot going for it and I still visit from time to time. But rules artifact or not, the (initially weird, even offensive) any-spell ideology offers many advantages; It's no longer locked (as much) into the mindset of rigidly defined spell formulae and parameters constraining the magic. The streamlining (and simplification) of the magic system does more than mechanically align it with the other rules - it allows players to experience more of the pure wonder and less of the "art and science" when they cast their spells. Crackling arcs of electricity dancing between your fingertips, pulsing eyes, and the whispy smell of brimstone and thunder are completely "ordinary" and subconscious manifestations rather than the hallmarks of superbly accomplished and exotic wizardry, and the emphasis is shifted on to what the magic does instead of how it works.
I personally stick with letting the player choose (most) of the spells he wants at 1st level (he always starts with some useful variety) but thereafter making him work at finding, taking, or researching any future spells. As DM I essentially control his access to spells from that point onward, though he can always choose to work (hard) towards obtaining particular spells that I don't readily provide. Spells never magically appear in shops or off the gaming table without my approval, regardless of which sourcebooks provide them. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2010 03:26:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 05:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The streamlining (and simplification) of the magic system does more than mechanically align it with the other rules - it allows players to experience more of the pure wonder and less of the "art and science" when they cast their spells. Crackling arcs of electricity dancing between your fingertips, pulsing eyes, and the whispy smell of brimstone and thunder are completely "ordinary" and subconscious manifestations rather than the hallmarks of superbly accomplished and exotic wizardry, and the emphasis is shifted on to what the magic does instead of how it works.
Actually, I think that what you describe as adding to the wonder takes away from it. To me, the wonder isn't in the end result, it's in how you get there... The how and why of determining how to manipulate arcane energies is where the wonder is -- once you know how to do that, the resulting fireball is almost blasé.
To use a modern analogy, it's like a computer. To many, what goes on inside the tower is an arcane process, full of mystery. The end result -- a printed page, perhaps, or the sound of a favorite song -- is commonplace, but how you get to it is a true mystery to most.
Magic does not exist in the real world. To me, that adds to the mystery and wonder of it, in fantasy settings. To streamline it takes away that wonder and mystery, and turns it into just another word processing program or media player. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 06:01:32
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| Well, what about the problem that a large portion of the most overpowered and broken spells in the game are in core? Divine Power, Gate, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, etc. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 07:17:02
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| I prefer the 2nd ed approach used in the old Complete Wizard's Compendium series. It had hundreds of spells listed from ALL sources to that time, each with a rarity rating. Some named spells ARE considered "unique" to certain settings or to their casters and those directly trained by them. In spite of what some people might think, unless trained by the Simbul, NO PC should "know" or be able to research "Simbul's Sinostodweomer" or any other such spell ("Srinshee's Spell-Shift" comes to mind) so a character who lived before that spell was created, or who HAS NOT LEARNED IT DIRECTLY FROM THE CREATOR should never have such spells in the first place. That's the whole reason why those spells exist- they are there to add flavor to their creators, and the possibility of learning a new spell or three from, say, Elminster himself. I only ever allow those spells that are NOT named, unless there is a darned good reason in PC background (briefly apprenticed to Laeral, for instance) to have it. Anything else, is just letting players run amok with the setting, IMO. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 07:54:09
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who has rare spells that aren't learnable in game, unless you somehow are trained or find a rare scroll with it.
Not saying it's impossible, but it should be worked for, not just a "Oh, I killed enough Goblins, now I know how to do this uber rare spell that only one other caster knows".
My wizard, Valice Rein, made many unique spells. He made copies and had them spread out to the world. Eventually he had enemies using his own unique spells against him. (DM even gave me a bonus to the save, since I knew how they worked).
It came in handy, when a Seer who was a fan of my work agreed to give aid to us simply due to my spells. He also asked that I'd one day help him with his studies.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 11:15:47
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Yeah, I agree that rare spells is more consistent in setting terms. Players can't automatically claim access to Elminster's Entertainment the moment the lights in Elminster's lab get turned off and the new ink in the PHB dries off. Why would they ever bother to research spells themselves? Why go through all the trouble of killing the evil necromancer when your canon lore already gives you complete access to the contents of his spellbooks?
quote:
Gavinfoxx
Well, what about the problem that a large portion of the most overpowered and broken spells in the game are in core?
This problem is not at all unique to any particular rules edition. 1E was a tangled mess of unbalanced and broken spells. 2E and every edition since started off with systematically thoughtful and ambitious cleanups but over time collapsed under the accumulated wobbly weight of too much unbalanced new lore. Powergamers are quick to find sploits, and inexperienced DM/player groups have a smaller toolbox to diagnose potential problems or elegantly repair imbalanced games that are teetering wildly around. As I said before, I don't care where the spell comes from (even a core PHB), it's just not going to be cast at my table until I approve (or alter) it to suit my own personal tastes.
Mystra always seems to be playing at intrigue or intermittently getting herself killed, so I feel that I have to take over a lot of her job and oversee the careful balancing of spell details (and availability) that otherwise remain neglected. I've met many DMs who'll write up vast libraries full of Realmslore but dogmatically refuse to violate the "sanctity" of the printed rulebook canon ... best results are more easily achieved when you decide to "properly" weight both sides of the coin for your particular campaign needs before you and your players start flipping it around. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2010 11:48:09 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 13:44:40
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| Can someone please define what is considered a rare spell? I mean, v3.5 is flooded with hundreds of spells ranging from 1st through Epic levels. So how does one narrow it down as to what a PC can learn and/or cast? I like limiting the spellcasters to core spell only (and maybe PH2 spells) and have them learn additional spells from other wizards, scrolls found, etc... But really, what makes Knauper's Skittish Nerves more valuable than say Distract Assailants? And what about wizards leveling up away from a city or study to "research" their spells? Do they just not get them when they're supposed to? That seems sorta harsh when you take away their one main resource in lieu for plausable storytelling. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 19:16:43
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The (2E) FRA sourcebook included some detailed tables which grouped spells as Common, Unusual, Rare (and Unique), along with some tables to generate the contents of random spellbooks and scrolls. (These same tables became quickly obsolete with each subsequent release of 2E/Realmslore that introduced new spells, though they provided a framework which could easily be remodelled as necessary.)
Essentially, as written, all of the basic "lame" spells were Common (75% chance), the "meat & potatoes" spells were Unusual (15% chance), and any spells with somebody's name on them or remarkably interesting and potent effects were Rare (10% chance). New "one-of-a-kind" spells found in special tomes were Unique by definition, known only to one wizard (typically their creator) and perhaps a handful of other wizards throughout the land. All other things being equal, no two wizards measured identically when the accumulated contents of their spellbooks came into play.
Some advantages of this approach - PC wizards usually didn't have access to certain spells that they wanted or needed, so they would often be forced to really understand (and push) the functional limits of their known spells and engage in a lot of their own (creative) spell research to "fill the gaps" in their spell selection. Wizards would be known by their trademark spells as readily as fighters would be associated with their signature weapons. Everybody is familiar with the "personality" of famous mysterious (Greyhawk) wizards like Bigby, Mordenkainen, Otiluke, and Tenser through reading descriptions of the "Rare" PHB spells they've created - it would be a crime to not give the same recognition to legendary wizards of the Realms like Elminster, Khelben, Laeral, Manshoon, The Simbul, and Szass Tam. Wizards can have as many defining personality traits as anybody else, but people associate wizards with magic so they have a lot more reknown when they demonstrate unique and interesting magics they've made for themselves ... without working hard to assert these special distinctions they largely end up just being interchangeable filler entries in their magic academy yearbook.
Spells like Aganazzar's Scorcher, Beltyn's Burning Blood, Snilloc's Snowball, and Quimby's Enchanting Gourmet say a lot about the personality of their creators, even though very little else is written about these wizards. You may have never heard of Larloch's Superior Disintegration (probably because I just made it up), but you would certainly be far more wary of challenging an evil lich who had been rumoured to cast this spell before. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2010 20:08:09 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 20:02:40
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@ Arik- I totally agree that certain spells with the wizard's name before it or in it's title should be considered more rare than your average PHB spell. Those I'd treat with some special standards and make any wizard research the spell or find someone who might know someone who has the spell. The problem I'm running into is what spell (even in the PHB) would be considered Uncommon or even Rare? And what would a DM favoring this style of play allow or not allow spell-wise?
When a wizard obtains a level he/she automatically gains access to 2 spells of the highest level he/she can currently cast. So say said wizard is in the bowels of a dungeon and they gain a level. Do you allow them to gain instant access to more spells when research isn't possible at the current time or maybe something else? I ask because it seems that many posters here value the "whys" and "how" wizards get their spells and the instantaneous knowledge given due to level progression is a less popular decision.
Also, is there an easy way to determine a spells availability (aside from spells with specific names in them) in any given town, city, or hamlet? There are rules for sizes of communities and what magical items that city or town might possess at the time. |
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Rarity of non core spells
