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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2011 :  00:46:32  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Magus Rages

Hello everyone, I had just thought of a question and had been wondering for some time. All right, this poll asks all the scribes, veteran and elite scribes of candlekeep who you think is the best, most powerful, most superior spellcaster in the realms in terms of your own opinion, not based on some stats. A honest vote and honest reply is greatly appreciated, I express my thanks to all in advance. Thank you.





well, befoe I vote, might I ask on what grounds we ar talking here?

because Elminster is widely regarded as the most powerful and knowledgable of Magic in the Realms. he has definitely an innate understanding and connection with the Weave which cannot be denied. in that sense, he is like an extension of Mystra herself.

in contrast, Manshoon has proven himself the most talented mage in the Realms. he has unlocked secrets which to this day, nobody else has managed to duplicate. he has cloned himself numerous times and they all activated at once (which by the way, makes me wonder what exactly happened to his Soul/Spirit), and furthermore he has afterwards overcome the bug in that incredible feat of Spellcraft (the doppleganger-killing compulsion which pitted his clones against one another).

Khelben is by far the wisest Mage in teh Realms, in my personal honest opinion, and I think that that should account for something.

I wouldn't put Halaster Blackcloak in the top list on my personal opinion, though that isn't to say he deserves no consideration. I just personally think he's far too mad to count. he's powerful, yes, but nothing compared to the other mages. in most games that include an insane hermit wizard, said wizard has some kind of secret knowledge which poses a serious threat to the entire world. Halaster doesn't live up to that legacy. he'd make an awesome opponent in a Mage Duel though. =w=

so, I think my top three choices are Elminster, Khelben and Manshoon, depending on what qualities count for this question.



Unless we are talking about the possibility of a Manshoon behind the scenes manipulating all his clones like puppets, he really does not belong in the conversation. Elminster has made him look like an inept bum every confrontation.



I wholeheartedly AGREE!

I don't like roaches, anyway.



how so? the fact of the matter is, the act of creating those clone sin th efirst place was a marvel of Spellcasting that NOBODY else has duplicated! and further, whil ethe original Manshoon may in fct be dead (unless one of them realy is the real one, somehow, as it's still a mystery exactly how that cloning spell variant worked), all the remaining ones who survived assassination have ovecome the strange bug in the spell that compelled them to kill eachother. yes, they might not be th ebest after all, but still they DO warrant appropriate place in this discussion! they are well in the running!

so, I have to seriously check your nerve in just writing Manshoon off just lik ethat. you realy are not taking into account the sheer ingenuity of Manshoon as a Mage, let alon ethe power and experience it would take to perform such an incredble magical technique as he did. he is just as worthy of being considered for the "Best Caster" position.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2011 :  03:12:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I might be impressed by his ingenuity [highly questionable world to attach to a roach, really] had he focused on making his clones nigh-indestructible, than on their numbers. Elminster blasted them in every confrontation as though they're pests, which, come to think of it, they really must be. [Insert evil laugh here!]

Every beginning has an end.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2011 :  15:01:47  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch, Karsus and Azuth as a mortal are/were all arguably better spell casters than everyone on the first list. Each one of them could(or did!) take on and possibly beat demigods.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2011 :  16:54:40  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Magus Rages

Hello everyone, I had just thought of a question and had been wondering for some time. All right, this poll asks all the scribes, veteran and elite scribes of candlekeep who you think is the best, most powerful, most superior spellcaster in the realms in terms of your own opinion, not based on some stats. A honest vote and honest reply is greatly appreciated, I express my thanks to all in advance. Thank you.





well, befoe I vote, might I ask on what grounds we ar talking here?

because Elminster is widely regarded as the most powerful and knowledgable of Magic in the Realms. he has definitely an innate understanding and connection with the Weave which cannot be denied. in that sense, he is like an extension of Mystra herself.

in contrast, Manshoon has proven himself the most talented mage in the Realms. he has unlocked secrets which to this day, nobody else has managed to duplicate. he has cloned himself numerous times and they all activated at once (which by the way, makes me wonder what exactly happened to his Soul/Spirit), and furthermore he has afterwards overcome the bug in that incredible feat of Spellcraft (the doppleganger-killing compulsion which pitted his clones against one another).

Khelben is by far the wisest Mage in teh Realms, in my personal honest opinion, and I think that that should account for something.

I wouldn't put Halaster Blackcloak in the top list on my personal opinion, though that isn't to say he deserves no consideration. I just personally think he's far too mad to count. he's powerful, yes, but nothing compared to the other mages. in most games that include an insane hermit wizard, said wizard has some kind of secret knowledge which poses a serious threat to the entire world. Halaster doesn't live up to that legacy. he'd make an awesome opponent in a Mage Duel though. =w=

so, I think my top three choices are Elminster, Khelben and Manshoon, depending on what qualities count for this question.



Unless we are talking about the possibility of a Manshoon behind the scenes manipulating all his clones like puppets, he really does not belong in the conversation. Elminster has made him look like an inept bum every confrontation.



I wholeheartedly AGREE!

I don't like roaches, anyway.



how so? the fact of the matter is, the act of creating those clone sin th efirst place was a marvel of Spellcasting that NOBODY else has duplicated! and further, whil ethe original Manshoon may in fct be dead (unless one of them realy is the real one, somehow, as it's still a mystery exactly how that cloning spell variant worked), all the remaining ones who survived assassination have ovecome the strange bug in the spell that compelled them to kill eachother. yes, they might not be th ebest after all, but still they DO warrant appropriate place in this discussion! they are well in the running!

so, I have to seriously check your nerve in just writing Manshoon off just lik ethat. you realy are not taking into account the sheer ingenuity of Manshoon as a Mage, let alon ethe power and experience it would take to perform such an incredble magical technique as he did. he is just as worthy of being considered for the "Best Caster" position.



Yes, Manshoon created a spell which allows him to come back to life at great personal cost to himself. It is an ingenious spell, but hardly the only super spell created, and in the context of this conversation, does not lead me to believe Manshoon belongs in the company of these other powerful characters.

The spell exists simply because he is utterly incapable of defeating most of those on the list in a spell duel. To me, that makes them better casters.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2011 :  23:08:07  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
About the Srinshee being all reputation, consider this, almost all
the major power player wizards in the realms act through proxies.
She didn't need to expend her power because she didn't NEED to.
After she abducted El, she knew that the Simbul would show up.
She most likely conserved her power in case the Man himself (Larloch)
showed up.

If you don't believe me, ask Ed.
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  04:18:43  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Magus Rages

Hello everyone, I had just thought of a question and had been wondering for some time. All right, this poll asks all the scribes, veteran and elite scribes of candlekeep who you think is the best, most powerful, most superior spellcaster in the realms in terms of your own opinion, not based on some stats. A honest vote and honest reply is greatly appreciated, I express my thanks to all in advance. Thank you.





well, befoe I vote, might I ask on what grounds we ar talking here?

because Elminster is widely regarded as the most powerful and knowledgable of Magic in the Realms. he has definitely an innate understanding and connection with the Weave which cannot be denied. in that sense, he is like an extension of Mystra herself.

in contrast, Manshoon has proven himself the most talented mage in the Realms. he has unlocked secrets which to this day, nobody else has managed to duplicate. he has cloned himself numerous times and they all activated at once (which by the way, makes me wonder what exactly happened to his Soul/Spirit), and furthermore he has afterwards overcome the bug in that incredible feat of Spellcraft (the doppleganger-killing compulsion which pitted his clones against one another).

Khelben is by far the wisest Mage in teh Realms, in my personal honest opinion, and I think that that should account for something.

I wouldn't put Halaster Blackcloak in the top list on my personal opinion, though that isn't to say he deserves no consideration. I just personally think he's far too mad to count. he's powerful, yes, but nothing compared to the other mages. in most games that include an insane hermit wizard, said wizard has some kind of secret knowledge which poses a serious threat to the entire world. Halaster doesn't live up to that legacy. he'd make an awesome opponent in a Mage Duel though. =w=

so, I think my top three choices are Elminster, Khelben and Manshoon, depending on what qualities count for this question.



Unless we are talking about the possibility of a Manshoon behind the scenes manipulating all his clones like puppets, he really does not belong in the conversation. Elminster has made him look like an inept bum every confrontation.



I wholeheartedly AGREE!

I don't like roaches, anyway.



how so? the fact of the matter is, the act of creating those clone sin th efirst place was a marvel of Spellcasting that NOBODY else has duplicated! and further, whil ethe original Manshoon may in fct be dead (unless one of them realy is the real one, somehow, as it's still a mystery exactly how that cloning spell variant worked), all the remaining ones who survived assassination have ovecome the strange bug in the spell that compelled them to kill eachother. yes, they might not be th ebest after all, but still they DO warrant appropriate place in this discussion! they are well in the running!

so, I have to seriously check your nerve in just writing Manshoon off just lik ethat. you realy are not taking into account the sheer ingenuity of Manshoon as a Mage, let alon ethe power and experience it would take to perform such an incredble magical technique as he did. he is just as worthy of being considered for the "Best Caster" position.



Yes, Manshoon created a spell which allows him to come back to life at great personal cost to himself. It is an ingenious spell, but hardly the only super spell created, and in the context of this conversation, does not lead me to believe Manshoon belongs in the company of these other powerful characters.

The spell exists simply because he is utterly incapable of defeating most of those on the list in a spell duel. To me, that makes them better casters.



that still doesn't undo my main point though. that "Best Caster" depends on what criteria.

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  04:42:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  05:28:06  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact, I'd say Larloch comes as close as possible to qualifying for all three categories.

As Wooly notes, controlling 60+ liches would require a rather significant degree of ingenuity. He's probably forgotten more than Elminster will ever know. And his plans for just about everything in the Realms displays near reality-bending levels of cunning.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  06:54:36  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.



Agreed. Whatever spells he created to be able to completely control through a mind link 60 liches, 3 Demi liches and a host of other undead creatures, as well as being personally powerful enough to make Szass Tam soil his britches in his presence and serve him certainly puts him up there. Heck, Ed has hinted that Larloch has found a level beynd that of a demi lich(which accounts for his ability to dominate them).

The clone spell, while ingenious, is not the best thing ever created. heck, Manshoon loses a ton of exp and levels every time he dies. Aumvor the undying, a lich, created the splintered phylactery spell, which ensures that no matter how many times he is destroyed, unless they find all 200+ pieces of his phylactery, he will rise again quickly without losing any levels. That spell alone is more ingenious than the clone spell.

In the end, the clone spell backfired in a terrible way, causing Manshoon's clones to all rise together and kill each other, losing tons of his caches of items he spent amassing(according to the sourcebooks).

Edited by - Firestorm on 15 Mar 2011 07:03:09
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  08:48:43  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Manshoon is/was just a above mid Level mage, far away from the top liga
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  11:45:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  18:44:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.



He cast spells like a mage, meets the game definitions of a mage, and his creator calls him a mage. How is your definition different?

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  19:58:45  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.



Kind of hard not to consider him ingenious. Only a mastermind could have put together and controlled the Zhentarim so well, and his clone spell is brilliant. But hardly the best spell ever created.

And he is a powerful wizard. But more on the Gromph Baerne/Middling prince of shade level, not the upper tier of Elminster/Telamont Tanthul/Larloch level
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  21:06:14  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.



Agreed. Whatever spells he created to be able to completely control through a mind link 60 liches, 3 Demi liches and a host of other undead creatures, as well as being personally powerful enough to make Szass Tam soil his britches in his presence and serve him certainly puts him up there. Heck, Ed has hinted that Larloch has found a level beynd that of a demi lich(which accounts for his ability to dominate them).

The clone spell, while ingenious, is not the best thing ever created. heck, Manshoon loses a ton of exp and levels every time he dies. Aumvor the undying, a lich, created the splintered phylactery spell, which ensures that no matter how many times he is destroyed, unless they find all 200+ pieces of his phylactery, he will rise again quickly without losing any levels. That spell alone is more ingenious than the clone spell.

In the end, the clone spell backfired in a terrible way, causing Manshoon's clones to all rise together and kill each other, losing tons of his caches of items he spent amassing(according to the sourcebooks).



ok, I have to admit, that's impressive. I conceide.

I realy need to keep reading. I have read only two novels after the WotSQ: Sacrifice of the Widow, and the Gossimer Plane.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  21:22:50  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.



Agreed. Whatever spells he created to be able to completely control through a mind link 60 liches, 3 Demi liches and a host of other undead creatures, as well as being personally powerful enough to make Szass Tam soil his britches in his presence and serve him certainly puts him up there. Heck, Ed has hinted that Larloch has found a level beynd that of a demi lich(which accounts for his ability to dominate them).

The clone spell, while ingenious, is not the best thing ever created. heck, Manshoon loses a ton of exp and levels every time he dies. Aumvor the undying, a lich, created the splintered phylactery spell, which ensures that no matter how many times he is destroyed, unless they find all 200+ pieces of his phylactery, he will rise again quickly without losing any levels. That spell alone is more ingenious than the clone spell.

In the end, the clone spell backfired in a terrible way, causing Manshoon's clones to all rise together and kill each other, losing tons of his caches of items he spent amassing(according to the sourcebooks).



ok, I have to admit, that's impressive. I conceide.

I realy need to keep reading. I have read only two novels after the WotSQ: Sacrifice of the Widow, and the Gossimer Plane.


Heh. Some of these characters never, or rarely make it into the novels. The sourcebooks have tons of information on them though.

Aumvor is a character I want to see make some cursory appearances given that his goal was to revive Nethril, and the Princes of Shade hold similar goals.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  02:18:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.



He cast spells like a mage, meets the game definitions of a mage, and his creator calls him a mage. How is your definition different?



It's in my file labeled For My Eyes Only.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3025 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  14:22:03  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't mean to sound like a total noob, but where are you guys getting all of this info on Larloch? I am just getting back into reading realms books so i am very rusty. This guy sounds like someone i would love to read about. Thanks!

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  23:00:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Mostly from what Ed said. Larloch very rarely appears in FR fiction.

Every beginning has an end.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  15:44:05  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I've read it seems like there is not much that distinguishes Larloch from a Demi God in terms of raw power....
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29896 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  17:34:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

From what I've read it seems like there is not much that distinguishes Larloch from a Demi God in terms of raw power....



Personally, I think he's the equal of any demigod -- maybe even some lesser powers -- except for the lack of divinity.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  05:06:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

And if he wants to, he could ascend without difficulty.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  07:10:25  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


And if he wants to, he could ascend without difficulty.

Actually, I think Wooly hits on an important consideration when it comes to fathoming Larloch's power.

If we assume his power allows him to, essentially, sit as an equal of a demigod [minus the divine spark], then perhaps any pursuit of divinity is irrelevant to him.

Larloch certainly follows his own path. And I would expect that if he's achieved power that rivals that of any demigod, then he's largely free to determine his own course about where to go next.

For all we know, Larloch's great plans revolve around some secretive scheme that effectively ensures his place and power without him factoring in any need to obtain apotheosis on behalf of some other deity.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 04 Sep 2011 07:25:28
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  07:23:23  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'm not fond of gods, myself. So I say I am glad Larloch chose to stay what he is despite his obvious ability to attain godhood. [And when it comes down to it, it would sound more impressive to read: "A lich slaps a god," than "A god slaps a lich."]

Every beginning has an end.
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Salacar
Seeker

Denmark
33 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2011 :  23:54:49  Show Profile  Click to see Salacar's MSN Messenger address Send Salacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Certainly the Srinshee must be an extremely powerful spellcaster, maybe the most powerful one, but this all relies on the rumors, speculations and Ed's own hinting about her being true.
If we simply look at an individual based on their potential, instead of proven power, then there's another spellcaster who must be considered.
I speak of course of the Terraseer.
He is without a doubt, if not THE oldest, then one of the oldest beings on Faerun, and as a Sarrukh he would have had access to ancient arcane knowledge that the Netherese could only dream of. Plus if we look at it entirely rulebook based, remember that a single level in a character class puts a Sarrukh straight into epic level, and who knows how many levels he could have gained by simply using his time wisely between hibernations for 26,000 bloody years?
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:20:53  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Certainly the Srinshee is a very powerful sorceress but no one can compare to the Old Mage of Shadowdale , even in his current somewhat precarious state.
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