Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Who is the best spellcaster in the realms
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 16

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:50:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

It's been more than six years since this thread was created, and there have been a lot of changes to the status of the spellcasters listed as options in the poll. Szass Tam has grown considerably more powerful and ambitious, so has Telamont. I wonder, though, why Vhostym wasn't included. Is being a native of Abeir-Toril one of the criteria?

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:59:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

I think Szass Tam is someone to look out for. Anyone who read the last novel of the Undead trilogy might speculate how invincible Tam really is. The minute Larloch slips up, I expect Tam to be right there to take his place. Lets not forget how close Szass Tam came to achieving total power and domination...

One wonders why, instead of casting the Ritual of Unmaking, he didn't just try to replicate Karsus's Avatar and steal a deity's divinity---Ao, if it's even possible.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  17:35:50  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[quote]One wonders why, instead of casting the Ritual of Unmaking, he didn't just try to replicate Karsus's Avatar and steal a deity's divinity---Ao, if it's even possible.



I suspect it's because Ao is not a divine power, and he is utterly "inaccessible" to mortals. Even the deities have to request his presence. That's just my suspicion of course.

Azuth


Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2012 :  08:33:32  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[quote]One wonders why, instead of casting the Ritual of Unmaking, he didn't just try to replicate Karsus's Avatar and steal a deity's divinity---Ao, if it's even possible.



I suspect it's because Ao is not a divine power, and he is utterly "inaccessible" to mortals. Even the deities have to request his presence. That's just my suspicion of course.

Azuth



Oh, well, he may do it one step at a time. Steal a greater deity's divinity (3 or more deities, if he can). As a greater god, he would have to interact with Ao once in a while. Whatever he learns out of those brief "meetings" he can use to modify the Karsus's Avatar-like spell to make it effective against an overgod.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
59 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2012 :  17:24:29  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello!

I may be wrong, but usually never see any Sarrukh listed as "one of the most powerful spellcasters." Except Terraseer.

From what I know, the sarrukh are even older than Srinshee, for example. I believe they have more than 35,000 years of existence.

I think I still have not seen the stats of sarrukh represent well all this knowledge. Terraseer himself has only 35 levels ... but for his age because he would not have more than 40 levels?

Thanks!
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2879 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2012 :  20:07:45  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

I think I still have not seen the stats of sarrukh represent well all this knowledge. Terraseer himself has only 35 levels ... but for his age because he would not have more than 40 levels?

-It usually does, but age doesn't have to line up with level. Just because someone/something is five thousand years old (picking a random age) means that it's super powerful. If something has just been sitting around for that amount of time and not really doing all that much, there's no reason it'd be growing all that much more powerful (levels) during that time. With the Sarrukh, that is partially in play, since most of the living ones have been in different stages of hibernation for thousands of years.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Light
Learned Scribe

Australia
231 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2012 :  07:42:26  Show Profile Send Light a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

I think I still have not seen the stats of sarrukh represent well all this knowledge. Terraseer himself has only 35 levels ... but for his age because he would not have more than 40 levels?

-It usually does, but age doesn't have to line up with level. Just because someone/something is five thousand years old (picking a random age) means that it's super powerful. If something has just been sitting around for that amount of time and not really doing all that much, there's no reason it'd be growing all that much more powerful (levels) during that time. With the Sarrukh, that is partially in play, since most of the living ones have been in different stages of hibernation for thousands of years.

I agree with rodrigoalcanza, one would think that each of these liches would be (since they are most likely over 35,000 years old which IIRC is when their empire fell) over level 40 or at least over level 30. However, the 60 lich-kings of Oreme rotate the leadership role every 4 years while the other 59 hybernate. So the way I see it is that over the past 35,000 years each Sarrukh has only been awake for almost 600 years (35,000 / 60). Add to that whenever they were born and you have their "true" ages.

"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga)
Go to Top of Page

rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
59 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  04:05:20  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I sometimes wonder, for example, that Khelben was 27 levels and Szass Tam had 29 levels (before 4th edition). But Khelben was much older than Szass Tam, Chosen of Mystra and other qualities, because then he would have less levels?

I could also compare well with Elminster.

I remember that someone has told me about it, saying, for example, these characters have a long history and may have suffered a loss levels at some point in their lives, for different reasons.

I also think that among these wizards could be the case Khelben known more spells that Tam. And spells more powerful! So Khelben has fewer levels but would be more powerful.
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3009 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  14:39:25  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another thing to consider is that it just seems absolutely ridiculous (to me at least) to stat out NPC's at level 50, 60, 70, etc. Besides, being a higher level does not mean you are "more powerful" than a wizard of a lower level.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
Go to Top of Page

Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  15:24:37  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the issue is,

What is being used to describe power? What is the bases for comparison?

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
792 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  22:09:21  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

I sometimes wonder, for example, that Khelben was 27 levels and Szass Tam had 29 levels (before 4th edition). But Khelben was much older than Szass Tam, Chosen of Mystra and other qualities, because then he would have less levels?

I could also compare well with Elminster.

I remember that someone has told me about it, saying, for example, these characters have a long history and may have suffered a loss levels at some point in their lives, for different reasons.

I also think that among these wizards could be the case Khelben known more spells that Tam. And spells more powerful! So Khelben has fewer levels but would be more powerful.



BlackStaff was level 31
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2879 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  23:02:19  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Light

I agree with rodrigoalcanza, one would think that each of these liches would be (since they are most likely over 35,000 years old which IIRC is when their empire fell) over level 40 or at least over level 30. However, the 60 lich-kings of Oreme rotate the leadership role every 4 years while the other 59 hybernate. So the way I see it is that over the past 35,000 years each Sarrukh has only been awake for almost 600 years (35,000 / 60). Add to that whenever they were born and you have their "true" ages.


-And have they been doing things to warrant going up levels through the ages (and also, keep in mind, it takes longer and longer to "level up" the higher and higher level you already are)?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 14 May 2012 23:02:49
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2012 :  03:31:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Age does not always equal to greater power. Malark is far older than Szass Tam, yet the lich could have easily quashed his brain. Many of Karsus' peers during the glory days of Netheril were a hundred times his age, but he surpassed most, if not all of them.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
59 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2012 :  13:00:54  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

BlackStaff was level 31



Where did you get your information?
In 1st Edition, Khelben was presented with 26 levels. In the 2nd and 3rd Editions he was presented with 27 levels.


Furthermore, I agree with you about levels and age were not correlated automatically. But it is still intriguing how (in the 2nd and 3rd Edition) Halaster Szass and Tam have similar levels when Tam is a mere child near the millennia that have Halaster.

Sometimes I understand that the levels represent a kind of raw power, then Szass Tam would have almost the same raw power that Halaster, despite being much younger (like a young warrior who has so much skill with the sword as an old warrior .. . Although not so experienced). However, the rules do not explain how Halaster and Tam could have the same skill rank of arcane knowledge, for example.

Magic takes many years to be studied. Even them with equivalent levels, it is not possible for someone much younger has the same skills rank than one who spent millennia studying magic. Repeated, the raw power (caster level, saving throws, HP) may be equivalent for many reasons (personal gift for magic, for example), but academic knowledge takes a long time, which favors the eldest. Thus also for the number of spells known.

So, in my view, for example, Alustriel COULD have less raw power magic than Szass Tam .. but perhaps she had much more knowledge than the lich.

Again, sorry my english!









Go to Top of Page

Light
Learned Scribe

Australia
231 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2012 :  16:35:42  Show Profile Send Light a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way it, a level 10 spellcaster is far above a level 5 spellcaster. However, a level 25 spellcaster isn't that much more "powerful" than a level 20 spellcaster and predictably as the levels go up the difference becomes less noticeable. Also, it is quite clear that not all wizards use their magic in battle; they aren't all war-wizards or battlemages. Theoretically, a level 20 spellcaster need not have stepped a foot outside his study he may have never had to use his magic in a real combat situation. Therefore a spellcaster's level isn't a measure of how good of a fighter he is with magic.

As for the whole age debate: level progression is obviously influenced by many factors. Natural talent, drive, resources, other responsibilities and even intelligence all affect level progression somehow. Dyrr (the Lichdrow) is over 2,000 years old but is a level 23 and Shoon VII is only a bit over 1,000 and is level 36. The way I see it is that after someone has broken into the Epic Level Tier they are much more likely to have caught themselves up into politics of one sort or another. I imagine Dyrr has spent most of his time and effort towards his house, scheming away and neglecting his studies to the point of becoming stagnant or just as possibly... regressing.

I figure that most characters either form an organization, join a government or simply scheme away against there rivals. I am also a fan of the idea that as you grow in level you not only need more experience to gain levels you also receive less of it from encounters. An archmage isn't going to learn much at all from tossing his thousandth fireball at a bunch of goblins or from identifying yet another magic item. It's very possible that Karsus had reached the point where taking down a deity seemed like the only way he could possibly progress any further. Not to say that he knew everything everyone else knew about magic, just that to reach the next "level" he had to go to next extreme.

I agree with Sightless though when he asks what exactly we term "power" as. Like I said, not all mages focus on combat. Some can use their magic to take control of a city through subtle uses here and there while others will attain the same level of control but through might. Some wizards have more followers than others, more servants, more money, more artifacts, more knowledge, more friends, more experience, more drive, more cunning and more/other skills. Normally though when I read the word "power" on forums I think: if the two or more persons were locked in a empty room and forced to fight who would win? But then again... maybe one of the people would perform better with a specific type of terrain, maybe he has some tricks up his sleeve to do with the snow, maybe one would perform better in a room that was 4x4 metres than he would in a 20x20 room... food for thought.

I once came up with a formula that took into account variable like age, drive, formal training, whether or not they had access to restricted, forbidden, lost or ancient knowledge/magic etc etc. It favoured wizards like Halaster, Ioulaum etc etc. because of their advanced age and their belonging to a long gone civilization. It was a point based system that went into the thousands. It was at this point that I realized that it was all getting out of control and turning into DragonBall Z.

Honestly though I put it all down to D&D. It's a simulation of life. And I guess you could say it is a poor one. It tries to take into account the thousands of variables but always fails. Stat yourself out as a D&D character, I'm sure you'll find that there are qualities and skills that you have that can't be represented on a character sheet.

Also, wasn't Halaster sent into stasis at the fall of Imaskar and only woke up a few hundred years ago... or was that some really good 3rd party material I read...

"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga)
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2879 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2012 :  16:45:48  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Many of Karsus' peers during the glory days of Netheril were a hundred times his age, but he surpassed most, if not all of them.


-Them, and most other magicians who have existed throughout the entire course of Abeir-Toril's history.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2012 :  08:45:08  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greatest drow wizard is jalyfein the spidermage. Srinshee is the greatest practitioner of arcane magic.

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  04:47:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless

I think the issue is,

What is being used to describe power? What is the bases for comparison?


A lot. But to make it short and simple: it's one ability to blast things and control people directly and indirectly.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Many of Karsus' peers during the glory days of Netheril were a hundred times his age, but he surpassed most, if not all of them.


-Them, and most other magicians who have existed throughout the entire course of Abeir-Toril's history.


Which makes me wonder...Could Ioulaum be as young as Karsus when he first learned to cast magic (at 2) and mastered it (at 20-something)? There's no sources that delve into his past, and for almost all the other Netherese archwizards for that matter.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 31 May 2012 04:51:54
Go to Top of Page

Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2012 :  15:09:28  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Ioulaum was young but maybe in his late 20s or early 30s when he became maybe an experienced mage?(my guess only) but yeah there is not much info on him...

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2879 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2012 :  21:59:28  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Which makes me wonder...Could Ioulaum be as young as Karsus when he first learned to cast magic (at 2) and mastered it (at 20-something)? There's no sources that delve into his past, and for almost all the other Netherese archwizards for that matter.


-In theory, but he'd still have to be older (by a day, a week, a month, a year, ten years, whatever), or else they'd be changing what we have established now. (and, personally, I think that'd be a poor change, as it would ruin a bit of the 'cult of personality' around Netheril's greatest archmage).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Jun 2012 22:00:40
Go to Top of Page

Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2012 :  22:33:30  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given the wording in the source book it implies that Karsus first casting at such a young age was unique.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29704 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2012 :  00:54:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just had a random thought...

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just had a thought... When Mystryl died, she dumped her power into a human girl.

Mystra 1.0 dumped a lot of her power into a human girl, too, before Midnight came along and got the rest of that power.

We also know that Mystra 1.0 possessed a mortal woman and had a slew of daughters with her, daughters that contained part of Mystra's essence...

What if Mystryl did the same thing? It's possible that the nameless girl who became Mystra was either a daughter of or a descendant of Mystryl. For that matter, a lot of magical anamolies could be explained that way -- maybe all of the non-Seven Chosen are descendants of Mystryl. Maybe some other odd cases, like wild talents, incantatrices, and even spellfire wielders are all descendants of Mystryl.

I might be wrong, but it's an interesting idea, thinks I.



quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In some of my 'deep secrets' musings in this thread and others, I have had some indication by 'persons in the know' (can't remember the specifics... probably Ed via THO) that the artifact that is Mystra requires some sort of mortal connection. Exactly why and and how deep that connection must be has never been discussed, because it falls into that 'deep secrets' category. I am not sure if it has anything to do with her initial creation, or some rule imposed upon her later by Ao (or even something else).




quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Markustay, you recall correctly - - and Wooly, you tread into dangerous ground, you wise and insightful hamster, you!
(Which is a not so subtle way of saying you're on to something, both of you.)

THO




What if Karsus was descended from Mystryl? It could explain his mastery of magic and his magical precociousness....

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2012 :  01:14:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Possible. Though I wouldn't like it. That's like akin to saying all powerful and gifted shadow magic-users are descendants of Shar.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  08:49:19  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elminster Aumar has my vote, and always will. He could fling spells with the best of them, if not being THE BEST ever.

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answer."

~Alruane
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
792 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  00:32:18  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

BlackStaff was level 31



Where did you get your information?
In 1st Edition, Khelben was presented with 26 levels. In the 2nd and 3rd Editions he was presented with 27 levels.


Furthermore, I agree with you about levels and age were not correlated automatically. But it is still intriguing how (in the 2nd and 3rd Edition) Halaster Szass and Tam have similar levels when Tam is a mere child near the millennia that have Halaster.

Sometimes I understand that the levels represent a kind of raw power, then Szass Tam would have almost the same raw power that Halaster, despite being much younger (like a young warrior who has so much skill with the sword as an old warrior .. . Although not so experienced). However, the rules do not explain how Halaster and Tam could have the same skill rank of arcane knowledge, for example.

Magic takes many years to be studied. Even them with equivalent levels, it is not possible for someone much younger has the same skills rank than one who spent millennia studying magic. Repeated, the raw power (caster level, saving throws, HP) may be equivalent for many reasons (personal gift for magic, for example), but academic knowledge takes a long time, which favors the eldest. Thus also for the number of spells known.

So, in my view, for example, Alustriel COULD have less raw power magic than Szass Tam .. but perhaps she had much more knowledge than the lich.

Again, sorry my english!












Epic level handbook had the most recent stats on him
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 16 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000