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Shayan
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 13:15:31
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Personally I hate referring to female characters with the names of professions that are primarily associated to their male counter parts.
Sorcerer, and Wizard.
I know that female Sorcerers are called Sorceresses.
But what are female Wizards called? I've read in some FR book, they were referred to as "Wizardress". But this has been challenged... is it: "Wizardess" or "Wizardress" or just "Wizard" (I sure hope not!). The great ether library of Google has many texts on both... which some what adds to the confusion...
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Someone please tell me where to buy FR books in Australia!! Pretty Please... 
Shayan's Subrace Engine - for NWNhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=2603 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 13:57:29
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Well I hit two online dictionaries and niether has Wizardress nor Wizardess. One indicated Wizards were only males the other was gender silent.
Sean K Reynolds at http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html offers this comment quote:
Other mini-rants about terminology:
Don't use the term "sorcery" to describe arcane magic. Officially, "sorcery" doesn't have a meaning in D&D. Informally, I use "sorcery" to mean "magic that originates from people of the sorcerer class" (and, equally informally, I use "wizardry" to mean "magic that originates from people of the wizard class"). The official generic term for "stuff having to do with arcane magic" is "arcane."
"Sorcerer" is a class name. Don't use it to mean "a person who can cast arcane spells." It means "a person of the sorcerer class." You wouldn't use the term "cleric" to describe any divine spellcaster, so don't use "sorcerer" (or, for that matter, "wizard") to describe any arcane spellcaster. The generic term for "arcane spellcaster" is "arcane spellcaster" or "mage."
Don't use the word "sorceress" to mean "a female person of the sorcerer class." You don't say "wizardess," "fighteress," "clericess," "druidess," or any other feminine forms of class names, nor do you feminize racial names ("elfess," "halflingess," "dwarfess," and so on). It's best to just not use the word "sorceress" at all. "
You are free to do as you wish.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 17 Oct 2005 14:06:07 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 15:28:23
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I usually try to avoid referring to a person's actual class in my games (i.e. Clerics become priest, pontiff, crusader, etc.).
I think that when you have people in the world know you by class it gets kind of Everquestish, which to me, is a very bad thing.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 17:21:46
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I had a friend that insisted on feminizing words for female characters... Seeing words like "weretigress", "rangeress", and "wizardess" were very jarring for me, and I hounded him about that until he stopped doing it.
Personally, I don't see that class names are gender-specific... But I suppose an alternative to feminizing a word would be to create an all-female order, and let the character be part of that order... Kinda like Rashemen's Witches. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 21:58:32
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I agree, and I agree with SKR, although he seemed to have neglected the term "priestess", which is commonly used in fantasy worlds (and in the real world, too).
But I don't think it's necessary or even desirable to feminize class names. Let's face it, some of them just plain sound stupid:
"Wizardess" or "Wizardress"
"weretigress"
"rangeress"
"fighteress"
"clericess"
Yuck! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:26:03
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I use wizardess and see nothing wrong with it. I think its cute.
Basically I think the majority of classes though are unisex sounding enough as it is. |
Huzzah! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kianna
I use wizardess and see nothing wrong with it. I think its cute.
Basically I think the majority of classes though are unisex sounding enough as it is.
So do I on both points. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:30:13
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Actually, I would prefer, instead of -ess, more of a cute sounding class name like:
Rangerette
Roguette
Barbariette
Those are cool.
C-Fb
P.s. - that was a joke.  |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:31:05
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Wizardette?
Sounds French!
Or something that removes hair... |
Huzzah! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 02:42:31
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You could always use the old 1ed PHB which had titles for every class and level.
Eric Boyd took this one step further in F&P, P&P DhD and gave a title for each cleric level which differed depending on which god they followed |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 03:23:33
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I have no beef with the term Wizardess. However, I agree with CrennenFaerieBane, I try not to use the players class in game to describe them.
Especially Barbarian. To me that is a condescending term describing a primitive type of people. In game my barbarians refer to themselves as warriors, soldiers, mercenaries, or berzerkers depending on what they do for a living.
Fighter sounds lame too, in game all my fighters go by warrior as well. They can also go by Archer, Swordsman, or whatever else describes their trade.
Clerics go by Acolytes, Priests, etc...
Sorcerer and Wizard are used interchangably in my games and mage is also thrown in to describe both.
Anybody who takes things that aren't theirs whether by stealth (rogue), force (fighter), or magic (wizard) is a thief in my games. You don't need a high dex and tons of skill points to be a thief.
Just how I run it in my games, but on the gender thing... I'll use priestess or witch but that's about it for female only terms. Although I don't think Wizardess sounds bad, I don't tend to use it. |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 18 Oct 2005 03:24:44 |
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Shayan
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 15:01:20
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I of course do not try to feminize terms classes such as Barbarians, or fighters etc. I do use "sorceress" and "priestess" or "witch" and will continue to do so. The kind of characters I play, use formal titles when addressing other characters as much as possible. IE: "Greetings lady sorceress."
I KNOW I've read "wizardress" in either: 'The Best of the Realms' or 'Daughter of the Drow'. It is unlikely in the latter, so it must be in the former... if only my friend will return it, I can seek and comfirm it >.<
Thank you all for your input. |
Someone please tell me where to buy FR books in Australia!! Pretty Please...
Shayan's Subrace Engine - for NWNhttp://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=2603 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 17:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Shayan
I of course do not try to feminize terms classes such as Barbarians, or fighters etc. I do use "sorceress" and "priestess" or "witch" and will continue to do so. The kind of characters I play, use formal titles when addressing other characters as much as possible. IE: "Greetings lady sorceress."
I KNOW I've read "wizardress" in either: 'The Best of the Realms' or 'Daughter of the Drow'. It is unlikely in the latter, so it must be in the former... if only my friend will return it, I can seek and comfirm it >.<
Thank you all for your input.
I'm sure it has appeared in print... And I know the term "she-mage" has appeared in print, too. Still, other than sorceress or priestess, I'd assume all class names to be gender-neutral (with obvious exceptions for gender-specific PrCs). |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 20:11:24
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I've read "wizardess" before in published fiction, but to me it sounds more awkward than cute.
"Witch" I do like though.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Especially Barbarian. To me that is a condescending term describing a primitive type of people.
That's a good point!
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 22:40:43
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Hey, RF, how about Wizardette? I think it's less awkward than Wizardess. Not very respectful, though! 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 20:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Hey, RF, how about Wizardette? I think it's less awkward than Wizardess. Not very respectful, though!
C-Fb
*laughs* No... Again, it's rather awkward. There's nothing wrong with wizardette, or wizardess, it's just that it doesn't roll off the tongue nicely the way "wizard" does. I play NWN, and I feel the same way about the term "henchwoman" (henchman is a neutral term!). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2005 : 18:23:21
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| this is one of the problems with fantasy, word inflation.... since english has limited number of words describing these things (since they are uncommon, fantastic) we are stuck with the same words over and over again. in the real world sorcerer and wizard mean the same thing as does mage etc. and enchanter and necromancer mean the same as well... its only d&d that makes the difference. i only use the game terms wizard and sorcerer in out of character speech. Otherwise its best to interchange the words to keep their synonomous traditional meanings, which is what would happen in FR also. the terms wizard, sorceror cleric, etc. are all d&d jargon and shouldn't retain their limited meanings when in story telling. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 10:32:38
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Well, it depends. The general populace or simply unknowing adventurers don't get the diff between a sorcerer and a wizard. However, one of my wizard PCs never gets tired of explaining said difference (yes, he has a dislike for sorcerers) and I think its not farfetched to assume that sages and wizards actually differ between the two.
On the other hand, my epic sorcerer/wizard does her best to blur those lines again.... :P |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 20:55:23
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| For what it's worth, the word "sorceress" does appear in the Forgotten Realms Style Guide. |
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Khaa
Seeker
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 14:42:03
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| I would go for wizardess. |
Ever want another forum? Well try out www.icewinddale.com |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 16:13:58
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Use italian, we've feminine for almost everything!
Wizard-Mago, Wizardess-Maga, and so on, with o for male and a for women! |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 18:56:49
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| I vote that we start using the word "womaness". |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 19:14:28
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| No that does not work, human and humaness or perhaps male and maleness or man and maness *Grin* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 19:48:24
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How about girlette?
And has anyone suggested wizardeuse yet? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Kianna
Learned Scribe
USA
155 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 20:47:46
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| Hottie and Hottiess? |
Huzzah! |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 22:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
No that does not work, human and humaness or perhaps male and maleness or man and maness *Grin*
I think maleness has been taken for other purposes already |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Belthor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 23:55:10
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| My Barbarian doesn't care what you call 'em, he just likes to bash 'em. He'd also be confused if you called him warrior or something of that ilk. He's not the brightest bulb in the box. |
If the rest of humanity were only as smart as my familiar...... |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 23:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
No that does not work, human and humaness or perhaps male and maleness or man and maness *Grin*
No? Let's go for bitchess.
My point was that feminizing nouns that are gender-neutral's pointless and the comment was meant to be ironic. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 03:22:08
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Agreed--even the terms "man", "men", and "mankind" can in fact refer to either male or female humans. From dictionary.com...
man
1. An adult male human.
2. A human regardless of sex or age; a person. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wizard, Wizardess or Wizardress?
