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Hammerfist
Acolyte
10 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 02:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thanks, I understand now....sometimes I wonder at the genetics of the races in the FR world, strange and yet interesting.
Ditto. I particularly wonder about things like the arctic dwarves. How does a race that lives for several centuries evolve into an entirely new subrace in a matter of millennia?
That's an interesting question we should discuss with the scribes here. Maybe i should start a topic about this. |
The hammer will strike when I say so. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 02:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammerfist
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thanks, I understand now....sometimes I wonder at the genetics of the races in the FR world, strange and yet interesting.
Ditto. I particularly wonder about things like the arctic dwarves. How does a race that lives for several centuries evolve into an entirely new subrace in a matter of millennia?
That's an interesting question we should discuss with the scribes here. Maybe i should start a topic about this.
It is strange at times that a race such as dwarves and elves can evolve into different sub-races such as gold dwarves and gold elves. But odd that humans in the FR world are different in terms of culture and ethnicities such as Damarans and Tethyrians unlike the more evolved subraces of dwarves and elves. Curious that orcs and trolls do not have any subraces other than half-orcs and half-trolls. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 05:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thanks, I understand now....sometimes I wonder at the genetics of the races in the FR world, strange and yet interesting.
Ditto. I particularly wonder about things like the arctic dwarves. How does a race that lives for several centuries evolve into an entirely new subrace in a matter of millennia?
I think (and don't go reading this as official -- it's just fellow gamer speculation, and maybe it'll trigger some conversation by more learned sages than I), that as with all species in evolution, environment makes all the difference.
But, you say, creatures in the "real world" evolve slowly -- hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions or more, pass before you get differentiated species. And yet, dwarves evolve in mere millennia.
It may have something to do with the Weave: since magic permeates the world, evolution can get speeded up. The Shades are the best example -- they spent a few thousand years on the plane of shadow, exposed to its awful, alien radiations. . . it's not really a surprised they became very very different. And yet their children, born and raised on Toril, might become more like the original parent races, since the radiation isn't there.
Divine will might play a role -- the traitors became the drow because of Corellon's influence. Further exposure to the harsh underdark environs, with its bizarre magical radiation might just have done the rest.
That's my two coppers.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 15:58:30
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Recall that a primary driver of evolution is attrition and mutation. The specimens with the greatest capacity for survival are those who posess the the traits which are superior to it's fellows. In a situation where "artificial selection" exists, such as it does when adventurers step in and routinely remove the best and brightest from the gene pool, it could easily stunt evolution. However, there are other ways of looking at this.
1) Ogres, Offshoot of Ettins? Or perhaps the other way around? What about Ogre Magi?
2) Orcs, evolved Goblins? Or merely over-sized goblins (as Tolkien intimated when he first invented the species.)? What about Hobgoblins and Bugbears?
3) Giants, Hill, Fire, Cloud, Storm, Frost... etc...
Methinks there are plenty of variants if you look. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 17:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Recall that a primary driver of evolution is attrition and mutation. The specimens with the greatest capacity for survival are those who posess the the traits which are superior to it's fellows. In a situation where "artificial selection" exists, such as it does when adventurers step in and routinely remove the best and brightest from the gene pool, it could easily stunt evolution. However, there are other ways of looking at this.
<snip>
Methinks there are plenty of variants if you look.
There are plenty of variations... But here's the rub: it takes a long time for evolution to happen. Among long-lived races that have slower birth rates, evolution should take even longer.
For a bunch of dwarves to evolve to a distinct subrace in mere millennia is just too fast. That's like humans evolving into distinct subraces in just a few centuries.
I'll admit that with magic (both arcane and divine), it would be possible to jumpstart evolution or side-step it. But we've had no mention of that. The racial history makes it look like it was a natural evolution, but it was just too quick for that. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 17:36:20
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True, but there are other mitigating factors. The largest of these is Magic. As an example, I'll use the Titans of Twilight (Might have bungled that title.. the last of The Giants Among Us Trilogy.). In this tale, excessive healing imparted a profound effect upon it's recipient. In the same manner, casting many spells (such as endure cold) upon a recipient might result in a tidal level of permanence upon the recipient.
Too, we are not taking into account the metabolisms of the species involved. If you have a population of entirely male frogs, salamanders, etc, inevitably one will switch gender, ala Jurassic Park the Third. While not quite that great of a switch is desired, I could see that a race that is tied heavily to the land might come to adapt quickly to the lands they live in. While it may not be immediate or take place within a generation, it would happen quickly by evolutionary standards. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 22:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
True, but there are other mitigating factors. The largest of these is Magic. As an example, I'll use the Titans of Twilight (Might have bungled that title.. the last of The Giants Among Us Trilogy.). In this tale, excessive healing imparted a profound effect upon it's recipient. In the same manner, casting many spells (such as endure cold) upon a recipient might result in a tidal level of permanence upon the recipient.
Too, we are not taking into account the metabolisms of the species involved. If you have a population of entirely male frogs, salamanders, etc, inevitably one will switch gender, ala Jurassic Park the Third. While not quite that great of a switch is desired, I could see that a race that is tied heavily to the land might come to adapt quickly to the lands they live in. While it may not be immediate or take place within a generation, it would happen quickly by evolutionary standards.
But how quickly can evolution happen in such a long-lived race? Without magic -- which, again, isn't mentioned in the race's write-up -- evolution of that magnitude should take a bare minimum of a few hundred millennia, not a percentage of that time. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 22:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But how quickly can evolution happen in such a long-lived race? Without magic -- which, again, isn't mentioned in the race's write-up -- evolution of that magnitude should take a bare minimum of a few hundred millennia, not a percentage of that time.
If you want to set aside magic as reason for rapid changes as a direct influence there can be radition (those old movies where humans has three eyes, or other radical changes years after the bomb went off, certainly effecting the next generation if not effecting those that lived though it). The Shadow at times appears to be different enough to cause change, Shadow Weave also causes a change in how magic works.
It certainly can be held open until sourcebook or other explaination is provided. In the Realms change can happen quickly though in those cases magic was used. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 03:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But how quickly can evolution happen in such a long-lived race? Without magic -- which, again, isn't mentioned in the race's write-up -- evolution of that magnitude should take a bare minimum of a few hundred millennia, not a percentage of that time.
If you want to set aside magic as reason for rapid changes as a direct influence there can be radition (those old movies where humans has three eyes, or other radical changes years after the bomb went off, certainly effecting the next generation if not effecting those that lived though it). The Shadow at times appears to be different enough to cause change, Shadow Weave also causes a change in how magic works.
It certainly can be held open until sourcebook or other explaination is provided. In the Realms change can happen quickly though in those cases magic was used.
I'm not talking about ths Shades -- I can readily buy the energies of another plane causing humans to become another near-human race.
I'm speaking of arctic dwarves, mostly. How does a race that lives for several centuries evolve into a new subrace in a few millennia? I'm perfectly willing to buy a magical explanation, but none has been offered (officially). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 03:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm speaking of arctic dwarves, mostly. How does a race that lives for several centuries evolve into a new subrace in a few millennia? I'm perfectly willing to buy a magical explanation, but none has been offered (officially).
Using DL as a basis -- and the tinker gnomes in particular -- I'd like to offer the possibility of divine manipulation as an alternative. However, even that presents problems because an explanation for "why" would also be needed.
I suppose you could suggest it was a deity whim, or perhaps the result of a divine reward or curse placed on a portion of the race for something wonderful or evil that they did in their past, but that seems just too basic. Perhaps the god provided a portion of the race with the environmental adaptation because of some pre-conceived destiny that the dwarves are meant to be a part of -- the creation of arctic dwarves is essential for fulfilling this destined prophecy.
But overall, I'm with Wooly. Creating a sub-race is fine, so long as it is properly explained with relation to what we already know about the original race.
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Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jun 2005 03:42:43 |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 13:21:51
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| Well, there is an interesting thought I have been wondering about. A wielder of Spellfire is known to be able to absorb most magical assaults and even drain magic from enchanted items. But a wielder of Spellfire absorb shadow magic or from shadow magic enchanted items? |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 14:17:37
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Esteemed Mr Rupert, I don't think you can fully set aside Magic as a catalyst for change. True there is nothing recorded in canon about the WHY of the change, but we're talking about a force of nature and the world around them. It's akin to discounting the wind when figuring out how flowers get pollinated.
If we are discounting the effects of Divine and Arcane magics then perhaps consider that certain races have a deeper connection with the land around them than humans, who tend to live with a degree of seperation from their environs.
Stromlancer: That is an interesting question, one I've not seen addressed herein, or in other scrolls (though doubtless one of my esteemed colleagues has). I would say that it would have to depend on how spellfire itself works. Since Shadow weave is a bastardization of the Weave by Shar, I would say that it is outside of normal Weave magics and wouldn't be able to be effectively acted upon by Spellfire. Not to say that someone couldn't adapt their spellfire abilities to soak Shadow weave, but that would be... icky...  |
Edited by - Forge on 28 Jun 2005 14:20:55 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 15:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by StromLancer
Well, there is an interesting thought I have been wondering about. A wielder of Spellfire is known to be able to absorb most magical assaults and even drain magic from enchanted items. But a wielder of Spellfire absorb shadow magic or from shadow magic enchanted items?
Ed's said that it's not really possible for a Weave based Spellfire wielder to absorb Shadow Weave magics. Two different Weaves basically. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 17:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Esteemed Mr Rupert, I don't think you can fully set aside Magic as a catalyst for change. True there is nothing recorded in canon about the WHY of the change, but we're talking about a force of nature and the world around them. It's akin to discounting the wind when figuring out how flowers get pollinated.
If we are discounting the effects of Divine and Arcane magics then perhaps consider that certain races have a deeper connection with the land around them than humans, who tend to live with a degree of seperation from their environs.
I'm not setting magic aside as a catalyst for change. I have, in fact, acknowledged that it is a viable explanation.
But, the description of the race says nothing about magic being a part of their evolution. It makes it sound like it happened entirely by natural causes -- but there's simply not enough time for it to have been natural.
I'll also buy that certain races are more tied to the land... But I don't see that as being a good explanation in this case, either. According to their legends, dwarves are of the mountains themselves. And they certainly have an affinity for stone. I don't see them as being able to set aside this affinity in favor of a glacial one. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 18:15:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll also buy that certain races are more tied to the land... But I don't see that as being a good explanation in this case, either. According to their legends, dwarves are of the mountains themselves. And they certainly have an affinity for stone. I don't see them as being able to set aside this affinity in favor of a glacial one.
Hmm, well frozen water is much like stone. It can be craved, tunneled and can have weak spots. That is ice is very much like stone.
" In the icy wastes, dwarves are the masters of both ice and stone. They build massive, elaborate defenses of ice and rock around the mines where they dig for copper, silver, gold, and iron."
It is not like they left stone it is more they moved North to reach mines. It might not be as much a sub race as those that had ability to survive the harsh conditions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 18:23:11
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I guess I just don't understand why the issue of magic is not even being brought into the equation. The source material doesn't say it played a direct part in it, but then it doesn't address it at all. It could be that the Arctic variety-dwarf is the result of a mad alchemist at work, but it doesn't say.
Someone mentioned something about Occam's Razor in a seperate thread and I think it could be applied here as well...Unless you think maybe a Space Hamster Mutate Ray was at work... |
Edited by - Forge on 28 Jun 2005 18:24:27 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 18:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I guess I just don't understand why the issue of magic is not even being brought into the equation. The source material doesn't say it played a direct part in it, but then it doesn't address it at all. It could be that the Arctic variety-dwarf is the result of a mad alchemist at work, but it doesn't say.
Because subspension of reality is hard to over come at times. People perfer a RW (Real World) expanation for many aspect of how the realms work. As far as it goes magic is not discounted fully, just one wants to know (read in source book) what type of magic was used. It can get hard to offer the explaination of, because. Such is hard to work with. There is the question in many minds that "because" can not answer. Also for gamers many would want role play the becoming a sub-race, many novel readers want also to undertand how something that never was suddenly is.
quote:
Someone mentioned something about Occam's Razor in a seperate thread and I think it could be applied here as well...Unless you think maybe a Space Hamster Mutate Ray was at work...
The simplist answe is most likely the correct one. The fewest steps required for an event to occur.
For Drow we know they were transformed enmase a use of Elven magic.
The Drawves living in snow does not have such source. Not all were transformed. I would offer that it would be a combination of those best suited to survive cold conditions, combined with a little Draven magic to aid them as the simplist answer. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 00:31:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I guess I just don't understand why the issue of magic is not even being brought into the equation. The source material doesn't say it played a direct part in it, but then it doesn't address it at all. It could be that the Arctic variety-dwarf is the result of a mad alchemist at work, but it doesn't say.
Someone mentioned something about Occam's Razor in a seperate thread and I think it could be applied here as well...Unless you think maybe a Space Hamster Mutate Ray was at work...
I've mentioned Occam's Razor a couple of times, recently... 
I think that the simplest explanation is magic. And I could certainly buy that, if it was stated. But it's not even hinted at... I just want a straight answer one way or the other.
And my references to Occam's Razor have been more along the lines of not assuming things based on minor similarities -- in other words, don't read into something without reason. In this case, we don't really have a reason to favor one theory over another. Magic could explain the birth of the subrace in such a short time, but the use of magic isn't even implied. It's hard to make an educated assumption from that. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:22:48
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quote:
And my references to Occam's Razor have been more along the lines of not assuming things based on minor similarities -- in other words, don't read into something without reason. In this case, we don't really have a reason to favor one theory over another. Magic could explain the birth of the subrace in such a short time, but the use of magic isn't even implied. It's hard to make an educated assumption from that.
My Esteemed Hamster...
You are quite correct, it doesn't say that magic is responsible. In fact it doesn't offer any explanation at all in the sourcebooks as to how these differences occur. I believe that there will be no forthcoming beyond either Magical intervention, Divine intervention, inherent racial proclivity for mutation.
Of course, I note that there are plane-touched variants based on Human stock, I wonder if some of this could be written off as planetouched variants as well?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
quote:
And my references to Occam's Razor have been more along the lines of not assuming things based on minor similarities -- in other words, don't read into something without reason. In this case, we don't really have a reason to favor one theory over another. Magic could explain the birth of the subrace in such a short time, but the use of magic isn't even implied. It's hard to make an educated assumption from that.
My Esteemed Hamster...
You are quite correct, it doesn't say that magic is responsible. In fact it doesn't offer any explanation at all in the sourcebooks as to how these differences occur. I believe that there will be no forthcoming beyond either Magical intervention, Divine intervention, inherent racial proclivity for mutation.
Of course, I note that there are plane-touched variants based on Human stock, I wonder if some of this could be written off as planetouched variants as well?
I suppose that's possible...
I just don't like something that pushes my suspension of disbelief being tossed out with no explanation. Having said that, we've probably threadjacked this topic long enough. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 14:53:50
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Oooh, I can answer this one!
Check out the Epic Level Handbook: Iyraclea.
One of the Secrets of the Realms not revealed for years.
Okay, she’s working HUGE amounts of landscape-transforming magic, spells that build upon spells (somewhat akin to what the Phaerimm were doing to expand Anauroch). [This comes from the mouth of Ed.]
Dwarves aren’t native to Faerûn, and therefore are more susceptible to certain Torilian magics. No, we can’t say with any precision yet just which ones, because there are very few long-term “species engineering” projects being dispassionately observed from a distance by anyone in the Realms. [Ed again.]
Put the two together: SOME dwarves swiftly mutated, thanks to the effects of magic.
[Strikes bell, bows, sits down again.]
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 15:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oooh, I can answer this one!
Check out the Epic Level Handbook: Iyraclea.
One of the Secrets of the Realms not revealed for years.
Okay, she’s working HUGE amounts of landscape-transforming magic, spells that build upon spells (somewhat akin to what the Phaerimm were doing to expand Anauroch). [This comes from the mouth of Ed.]
Dwarves aren’t native to Faerûn, and therefore are more susceptible to certain Torilian magics. No, we can’t say with any precision yet just which ones, because there are very few long-term “species engineering” projects being dispassionately observed from a distance by anyone in the Realms. [Ed again.]
Put the two together: SOME dwarves swiftly mutated, thanks to the effects of magic.
[Strikes bell, bows, sits down again.]
love to all,
THO
That's actually a workable position. Thanks for the details THO  . You as always, have my love ...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 00:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Oooh, I can answer this one!
Check out the Epic Level Handbook: Iyraclea.
One of the Secrets of the Realms not revealed for years.
Okay, she’s working HUGE amounts of landscape-transforming magic, spells that build upon spells (somewhat akin to what the Phaerimm were doing to expand Anauroch). [This comes from the mouth of Ed.]
Dwarves aren’t native to Faerûn, and therefore are more susceptible to certain Torilian magics. No, we can’t say with any precision yet just which ones, because there are very few long-term “species engineering” projects being dispassionately observed from a distance by anyone in the Realms. [Ed again.]
Put the two together: SOME dwarves swiftly mutated, thanks to the effects of magic.
[Strikes bell, bows, sits down again.]
love to all,
THO
Hey, thanks for that info, my Lady. That makes sense to me. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Jul 2005 00:28:11 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2020 : 19:15:51
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Great Reader Kuje,
Do you happen to recall if lineages were specifically identified that tend to produce offspring with Spellfire?
This seems like a great plot for campaigns where bad groups try to kidnap said people and either force offspring to be produced then controlled by said group, or to simply off an entire line of people to prevent that from propogating.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
A few thoughts on the matter:
1) Spellfire is composed of 2 "types" of damage, Fire and Pure Magic. This is alluded to in the 3.X description of it's effects on someone who has immunity to fire. (Kinda like flame strike which is part fire, part divine energy) Spellfire doesn't seem to have a hereditary component, indeed in many situations it seems to manifest randomly. (And a good thing too, if the Zhents or Thay got their hands on a gifted female and started breeding Spellfire-cannons *shudder* )
Forge
Ed has confirmed, more then once, that Spellfire is hereditary. :)
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Silverfire, spellfire, shadow magic
