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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 21:28:34
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This sis osmething that is itching at me ...
The ancient Illuskans are described as a Viking Age Norse peoples. Amongs their descends this is unmistakeably seen in the Northmen of the Moonshae Isles.
Eric Boyd once suggested (over on the Realms-L list) that, as one possible theory, a buncha "vikings" passed through a portal out in the ocean somewhere that carried them from Earth and into Faerun.
This would certainly explain the strong resemblence to the viking stereotype.
Now, if the Illuski were some ancient tribe of Norse who took a wrong turn at the northpole and ended up the FRs, it would stand to reason that they carried their gods along with. Tyr being one of their gods.
The thing is, according to George Krashos timeline, the Illuskans arrived from the west to settle Ruathym c.-3,100 DR, while the FRCS 2nd ed. states that Tyr's worship is less than a millenium old.
My question is, first, were the Illuskans really Vking Age Norseman from Earth? Did they carry their indigineous religion with them? Is Tyr's worship thus, much older amongst the Illuskans? And is "less than a millenium ago" the point at which Tyr was introduced to the native Faerunian pantheon (Chondathan-Netherese-Tethyrian?!?).
I suppose it might also be asked, depending, but what happened to the rest of the native Illuskan pantheon, if it ever existed? Did the other Norse gods just not take an interest in Aber-Toril? Thus, those who were "ineffectual" were abandoned over time and replaced with the native Faerunian deities?
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 21:54:39
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Within the context of earth history, the ancient Teutonic kindreds had established trading routes leading over to the British Isles by the opening of the Bronze Age, and we can see from their rock-carvings, both their ancient proximity to the sea , as well as the symbolism upon them, that ships and the water played a large part in their life.
The best time to place a lost tribe however would probably be c.500 BC. The Teutonic kindreds were still bronze tech. at this point, which is important because the Illuskans couldn't arrive in Aber-Toril with iron when the Calishites were still stuck in the Bronze Age. It was also at this point in history that the climate in the southern Scandinavian homeland began to grow colder and wetter, turning the soil to clay, and causing a marked decrease in the amount of arable farm and pasture land. Infant survival however, remained five times that of the Stone Agew however, so there was a quickly growing surplus population that couldnt be sustained.
While there was undoubtedly inter-kindred squabbles, genocides in fact, going on at this point, kindreds were also uniting into tribes and pushing their way into eastern Europe and northern Germany.
One might imagine a collection of kindreds, or the surplus of some allied kindreds, calling themselves the Illuski (which seems to fit such other tribal names as Tencteri, Marcomanni, Heruli, Bructeri, etc.) forming up and deciding to follow a different route out of southern Scandinavia.
This bunch intented to follow the old sea-routes west to the British Isles, as the later Angles, Saxons, Frisians, and Jutes did, but they went off course and stumbled through the gate to Aber-Toril.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2004 : 09:53:56
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There is an older aspect of Tyr name Anachtyr (sp?) who is ~4,000 years old and worshiped among Calishites. See Ruins of Undermountain: Campaign Guide and City of Splendors write-ups of Olophin. I think there's a reference in Dragon #227 as well. Also, if you read the Tyrite entry in Prayers from the Faithful, that's older than the 1,000 years as well.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2004 : 07:58:39
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| If you look back to much of the FR lore, most of it has come from Earth and such. At the top of my head I can think of this article in Dragon magazine by Mr. Greenwood - who hinted or even said, that Sune was an aspect of Aphrodite. |
Ponka! Kaddu! |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 21:28:55
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It is entirely possible that a longship full of vikings somehow made their way onto Abeir-Toril brining Tyr with them.
The fact that Tyr worship seems much younger then the arrival of the Ruathym doesn't necessarily conflict. There were lots of gods about at the time, some competing for similar portfolios (Garagos and Tempus being two survivors of that age).
Possibly a mainland native god with some justice etc. in his portfolio discovered these lost vikings and started to grant them spells under the guise of Tyr. Slowly building a powerbase with the Illuskans.
Through time and inter-deity strife, the Tyr aspect of this god came to the fore and started spreading over Faerun, maybe even absorbing Anachtyr...
Just a possible scenario mind you. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 18:45:20
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Perhaps that god was named "Anach" orginally. (Or whatever makes sense if you get the spelling correct and drop off the trailing "Tyr".)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 20:31:34
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In Scandinavian myth it is said the god s and the giants destroyed each other in the Twilight of Gods. It is when all the gods died and the earth and the heaven was destroyed. Then the Alfadur(equivalent of Ao) recreated a new heaven and earth.
If Tyr of the realms is from Scandinavia those days might be the ones Iluskans emigrated accidently to the realms with the help of Tyr. They may be a clan led by a holy quest from Tyr and found themselves on Toril. Since they worship Tyr eventhough they respect the other gods of the scandinavian pantheon they would worship Tyr and raise their kindred in that direction.
So the names of Thor , Odin dissapear in millenias.
But there is place called Baldur's Gate, Baldur is the most beloved god among the norse gods and slained by Hodur who was intrigued by Loki before Twilight of Gods. That doesn't have to be a coincidence.
The ancient stories about a fallen god called Baldur who was beloved by all the living things might come from the fist Iluskans. Then in future those ancient stories might give Baldur's name to a blosoming beatufiul city. |
Edited by - Forlorn on 05 Nov 2004 20:46:22 |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 23:58:35
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Tyr also called as Tiu in Scandinavian myth. He is a son of Odin and his demise is unknown after Twilight of Gods.
" Tiu is the god of war and battles. He is represented as having only one hand, some say because he can only give victory to one side, others because the missing hans was bitten offf by the wolf Fenris, wolf son of Loki. From his name is derived the word Tuesday"(1).
(1): Myth&Legend by Thomas Bulfinch |
Edited by - Forlorn on 06 Nov 2004 23:37:06 |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 15:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Perhaps that god was named "Anach" orginally. (Or whatever makes sense if you get the spelling correct and drop off the trailing "Tyr".)
Having given this some thought since the original exchange, many moons ago, the conclusion that I have come to is that a band of Illuskans journeyed to Calimshan (or whatever it was called at the time) long ago and performed such deeds of heroism that they were hailed by the locals ... to such an extent that the locals adopted the Illuskan god Tyr, whom they called in their own tongue "Anachtyr" or "Tyr the Hero/Savior".
Of course, my theory has it that the Illuskans had long since fallen into piracy since those early days -- due to the scant resources of their island realms -- and had long since abandoned the worship of Tyr. |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 15:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
But there is place called Baldur's Gate, Baldur is the most beloved god among the norse gods and slained by Hodur who was intrigued by Loki before Twilight of Gods. That doesn't have to be a coincidence.
The ancient stories about a fallen god called Baldur who was beloved by all the living things might come from the fist Iluskans. Then in future those ancient stories might give Baldur's name to a blosoming beatufiul city.
Thats very interesting. Made even moreso by the fact that not all of the Teutonic folk saw Baldur as a god. In Saxo Grammaticus' work "History of the Danes" Baldur is a mortal king, whom, like other mortal kings traced his pedigree back to Woden, ie. was Woden's son. He could not be harmed by iron (Achilles like) and fought often with another mortal king, HodhR.
Some see the two as philosphical constructs, representing the emerging cultural conflict of heroic combat vs. blind violence.
Anyway, the idea that Baldur's Gate might be named after a hero/god-hero from an old Illuskan legend is cool! |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 16:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
Tyr also called as Tiu in Scandinavian myth. He is a son of Odin and his demise is unknown after Twilight of Gods.
" Tiu is the god of war and battles. He is represented as having only one hand, some say because he can only give victory to one side, others because the missing hans was bitten offf by the wolf Fenris, wolf son of Loki. From his name is derived the word Tuesday"(1).
(1): Myth&Legend by Thomas Bulfinch
Bulfinch, is not necessarily the best place for mythical or cultural analysis, which, in regards to the Teutonic deities and culture is a religious passion for me ... so I guess that makes me a harsh critic. At the risk of incurring the wrath of Alaundo and his mighty staff, here are my own observation and thoughts from a very long research and study of Tiw, aka TyR ....
Of all the gods and goddesses of the Teutonic folk, there can
be little doubting that Tiw was amongst the most highly honoured and
furthest famed. Places once devoted to his worship can be found
across NW Europe and include Tysoe, Tuesley, Tislea, Tewin,
Tyesmere, and Tifield in England; Tisdorf and Zeisberg in Germany;
Tystathe and Tuslunde in Jutland; Tisvalae in Zealand; Tistad, Tisby,
Tisjo, and Tyved in Sweden; and Tysnes Island in Norway. Likewise,
his name has survived in each of the three major Germanic language
groupings (North, West, and East Germanic) and variations
include "Zio" and "Ziu" in Old High German, "TyR" in Old
Norse, "Tius" in Gothic, "Tiw", "Tiu", "Tio", and "Tig" in the
various Anglo-Saxon dialects, and even "Teiw" in Primitive Germanic.
All of these variants, along with such other words as the Old
Norse "Diar" (gods), Old Norse "Tivar" (gods and heroes), Anglo-
Saxon "tir" (glory), and Old High German "ziori" (splendour), spring
from a common Indo-European root ("deius") meaning first "heavenly
radiance" and then "god". This same I.E. root also gave us the
Baltic "Dievas", the Latin "Jupiter" and "deus", the Greek "Zeus"
and "theos", the Ancient Hittite "Sius", and the Sanskrit "Dyaus".
When the Romans first came into contact with our folk it is a curious
fact that they did not liken our Tiw to their Jupiter. Instead, they
likened him to their war-god Mars. Likewise, when the Anglo-
Christians at last adopted the Roman system of time reckoning it
was "dies Martis" (day of Mars) that became "Tiwes daeg" (day of
Tiw). Given this, it is fair to say that, like Mars, Tiw had strong
associations with organized warfare, and it is probable that he was
once regarded as our "Gloryfather", and thus, as the supreme god of
the cattle-/wife-raid. As such, his chief consort would undoubtedly
have been the all-nourishing cow, called Audhumbla in the Eddas, and
there is in fact an image of a god mating with a cow on one of the
TEutonic rock-carvings that cropped up in Scandinavia during
the Bronze Age. This coupling of Tiw and Audhumbla is further alluded
to in the various Teutonic futhorc's (rune "alhpabets") where we find the "Cow" rune standing at the head of the first aett, or "family" of runes, and the "Tiw" rune standing at the head of the third aett.
In any event, whatever measure of martial supremacy Tiw may have enjoyed during the Bronze Age, the inscription (Germanic language/Etruscan script) found upon the Helmet of Negua suggests that from as early as c.300 B.C.E. our folk looked to two distinct gods for success in war; "Harigast [and] Teiwaz". Who this other god was is made evident in the writings of the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus, who tells of a territorial dispute that arose between two Germanic tribes, the Hermundurii and the Chatti, during the 1st century C.E. He relates that both tribes vowed to sacrifice all of the spoils of the war to "Mars and Mercury" if victory fell to them. And by the same virtue that identified Tiw with Mars, so to was Woden commonly identified with Mercury.
Regarding this custom of yielding up all the spoils of war; it is
known to have begun sometime during the 4th century B.C.E., following
hot on the heels of the climate shift that brought an end to the
Teutonic "Golden Age". It seems to have reached it's height
during the late 2nd century C.E., as shown by the Illerup find, and
then to have tapered off over the course of the 6th century C.E., by
which time the disposals had become substantially smaller and
entirely associated with Woden. Given this, it would appear that the
custom encompassed a transitional stage in which Tiw uplifted, and
then ultimately gave way, to Woden within the sphere of organized
war; with Woden`s supremacy being made more than evident in the lore
of the Viking Age. The custom would also seem to indicate that Tiw is
a god that embodies selflessness and stands in sharp opposition to
slavering greed; two Tiwic virtues which are borne out in the Eddaic
tale of the binding of the Fenris Wulf. One might further speculate
that this taboo plunder went on to become the cursed treasure
hordes of Beowulf and the Volsung saga.
In any event, for all that Woden's rise to supremacy with the sphere
of war is undeniable, Tiw nevertheless maintained some association
with armed conflict right up until the close of the heathen period.
In the Prose Edda, written by Snorri Sturluson in the 13th century
C.E., we are told that Tiw is the boldest of the gods, that he has
power over victory, and that it is good for men of action to pray to
him. Likewise, the Eddaic poem Sigdrifumal speaks of "victory-runes",
stating that one should carve them upon one's weapon and then
call "twice upon Tiw" for victory. Here it should be noted that
Woden, in his role as war-god, was sacrificed to by the king, and on
behalf of the entire army. In other words, Woden was the god of the
army as a whole, and not necessarily the god of the individual
combatant. As such, it would seem most likely that Tiw continued to
be invoked on a personal level on into the Viking Age, and this would
seem to be borne out by the clear individual orientation of both the
aforementioned mentioned victory-charm and the "radiant glory" that
is the essence of the god`s name.
It would also seem to be indicated by the title given to him in an
early inscription carved by Frisian mercenaries on Hadrian's
Wall; "Mars Thingsus" or "Battle-God of the Legal Assembly". Of
course, within the context of the characteristically rough-and-tumble
Thing, or "Maethel" as the Anglo-Saxons came to call it -- the term "thing" was retained in English form numerous forms of conversation and debate -- such a title as "Mars Thingsus" would mark Tiw out as the god that presides over the custom of "trial by combat" or "ritual duel"; in which two men square off in the eyes of God to determine the righteousness of whatever matter might be in contention. As we read in the 7th century Edictus Rothari, "...then let the case be decided by a judicial duel...so that the matter may be left to the judgement of God". Usually this custom was invoked in regards to various accusations levelled against a man's (male or female) good character, and thus it generally served to fetter the tongue of cowardly slanderers and those too quick to judge. It was further used, as Tacitus relates, to divine the outcome of a prospective war, and also as an alternative to war, with either rival kings or their chosen champions squaring off, with the fate of both kingdoms hanging in the balance. One telling example of the latter case is to be found in Paul the Deacon's 8th century work "History of the Lombards",
"See how many people there are on both sides! What need is there that
so great a multitude perish? Let us join, he and I, in single combat,
and my that one of us to whom God may have willed to give the victory
have and possess all this people safe and entire."
Similar examples can be in both Gregory of Tours 6th century "History
of the Franks", in which champions of the Vandals and the Alamanni
square off, and also Saxo Grammaticus' 12th century work "History of
the Danes", in which we read of King Offa of Old Anglia's
tirfast "duel" against two Saxon champions. While Tiw is not directly
named in any of the above examples, the body of evidence suggests an association between the righteous Gloryfather, legal judgement, and the ritual duel.
As the god of righteous combat, ie. man-on-man, Tiw was also associated with certain protective female battle-spirits called "Alaisiagae" (All-Givers) by the Frisians. These Alaisiagae were given such personal names as "Friagabi" (Giver of Freedom) and Baudihillie (Ruler of Battle), and seem to have been a Tiwic equivalent of the Wodenic waelcyrgen (Choosers of the Slain; valkyrja).
Beyond the direct association with the trial by combat, the
title "Mars Thingsus" may also indicate a more general association
between Tiw and the Maethel. According to Tacitus, it was
the "priest" of the tribe that opened the proceedings of the Maethel,
and this was, presumably, the same priest that Tacitus writes of as
retrieving battle-standards and idols from holy groves, and carrying
them into battle on behalf of his tribe. The Roman historian goes on
to relate that no man could be flogged, imprisoned, or put to death,
even on command of the drihten (warlord), without the permission of
the priest; who was himself obliged to render his judgement in
accordance to the will of that god whom accompanies them on their
campaigns. Once again we find the idea of the "war-god`s" righteous
judgement in association with the Maethel. And given the early date
of Tacitus' writings, this "god of righteous judgement" was
undoubtedly Tiw.
In the Eddic poem Voluspa, we read the following stanzas regarding
the act of Creation,
"From the south the sun, by the side of the moon,
heaved her right hand over heaven's rim;
the sun knew not what seat she had,
the stars knew not what stead they had,
the moon knew not what might he had.
Then gathered together the gods for counsel,
the holy hosts, and held converse;
to night and new moon their names they gave,
the morning named, and midday also,
forenoon and evening, to order the year."
Voluspa, stanza 5 - 6
(trans. Lee Hollander)
In contrast to the Prose Edda, which identifies Woden and his two
brothers as the sole shapers of Creation, here in the poetry we find
the Tivar as a whole taking part; presumably, at the Maethel where
judgements are rendered and measurements set. In fact, the setting of the calender (to prevent "calender drift") was a matter regularly and solely dealt with at the Maethel.
Now, given Tiw's association with both the Maethel and godly judgement, not too mention the primal nature of his name and it's association with the basic quality of godhood, it would be fair to suggest that he played a much greater role in Creation than suggested in the late Eddaic sources. According to Tacitus, the ancient songs of the Germans hailed a god called "Tuisto" as the progenitor of all the Teutonic folk. While the god-name may have suffered some
corruption as it moved from Germany to Rome -- Grim suggests it was originally tiv-isto -- it might also have sprung from the same root as the German "zwei", the Dutch "twee" and Swedish "tva"; all of which mean "two", as in the quantity. And while there is no way of knowing for certain, "Tuisto" would seem to be cognate to such words as the German "zweist", the Dutch "twisten", and the Swedish "tvista"; all of which mean "dispute" or "conflict".
This would seem to indicate that Tuisto was an elder title of Tiw's,
who "is not a peacemaker", and it is worth noting here that the
Romans not only hailed Mars as their "god of war", but also as the
father of Romulus, the mythical founder of Rome. This fact may have
lent just as much to their association between Mars and Tiw as the
association with warfare. Furthermore, it is not difficult to
perceive how the "radiant light" that is the essence of Tiw's name
brought about the birth of "duality" (also rooted the idea of "two" incidently)in the beginning; when darkness and chaos reigned. This led in turn to the birth of "dispute", and thus, to the sharpening of various definitions that make up reality. As for the idea of "duality" itself; both it, and basic Teutonic preference for the light over the darkness, can be found within the context of the Maethel, the customs of which dictate that the punishment for crimes should be displayed (light), the punishment for shames concealed (darkness), and that any crime engaged in after dark, or any killing left unclaimed, is a greater offence than one committed and claimed in the light of day.
In the Anglo-Saxon Creation poem "Caedmon's Hymn", which tells of the
shaping of Middengeard, the creator god is referred to as
both "Wulderfather" (Gloryfather) and "Metod" (Measurer). The former
title has often been taken as an indication that the Anglo-Saxons
knew of the North Germanic god UllR, whose name is cognate to the A-
S "Wuldor", and this may or may not be the case. The latter title
however, is given to one of the gods that appear in Saxo
Grammaticus' "History of the Danes". Here we read of how "Mitodhinn"
(Measurer) took Woden's place for a time, forbidding the custom of
making "indiscriminate" offerings to the Tivar, and appointing to
each a special drink offering. In time it is said that Woden returned
to overthrow him and re-institute the custom of indiscriminate
sacrifice. While Saxo's rendition of this tale is at least somewhat
suspect, the association between Mitodhinn/Metod and the "special
drink offering" would suggest that this god was associated with both
the custom of heroic boasting, and that portion of the blot (sacrifical feast) known as the fulls, in which individual gods/goddesses are honoured in the toast. This would indicate that Metod, not unlike Tiw himself, is a god very much concerned with the recognition/glorification of worth; in all it's varieties and not simply in warfare. Such a name as "the Measurer" would also seem quite fitting for the god that gave us the basic framework of the Maethel - which is itself a storehouse of all sorts of various measurements (eg. value of various wounds, of human life, of the word of various men, etc.) - and who established it at the base of MjotvidhR (Measuring Tree). As such, it would appear that
Metod is also one of Tiw's titles (or perhaps Mannus/Heimdal's?), and that he was worshipped by the Anglo-Saxons as one of the shapers of
Creation.
It would also seem that the Anglo-Saxons associated Tiw with
cremation and death, as his rune stave is found on more Anglo-Saxon
cremation urns than any other symbol. It's associated stanza in the
Anglo-Saxon Rune Poem reads as follows,
(Tir/Glory) is some token, it holds troth well
with aethelings, it is ever on course
over Night's mist, it never switches.
The "token" referred to would seem to have been the North Star; a
beacon of unfailing light and guidance that was renowned amongst our
seafaring elderfolk. As the journey into the afterlife was itself
often perceived as being a journey by water, it would seem most
likely that the elderfolk called upon the power of Tiw at funerals;
to guide the dead over the dark waters of death and then onward to
heavenly glory. By simple extension this would also associate him with both the heroic ethic and the "name undying"; the latter of
which is clearly "one helluva token" of human worth, ever shining
forth, brilliantly and eternally, out of the darkness of death.
Finally, it would appear that Tiw was in some way associated with the
horse, as there is a red horse cut of Edge Hill at the above
mentioned Tyso in England. Also, in Tacitus' "Histories", a
representative of the old German tribe called the Tencteri, who were
renowned for their skill as horsemen, is said to have hailed "Mars"
(i.e. Tiw) as the greatest of the Tivar. In Tacitus' Germania, we
read of certain white horses that were believed to be intermediaries
between men and the gods. Their neighs and snorts were interpreted as
the words of the Tivar themselves, and this form of divination was
used only in regards to matters of the utmost importance to the
tribe. Here one might think of the metaphor of the "horse" and
it's "rider"; that is, of "earthly vessel" on the one hand,
and "divine consciousness" on the other. In terms of warfare, where
either the death or mutilation of the physical form is such a strong
possibility, this distinction between the "flesh" and the "spirit",
the "transient" and the "eternal", would be especially poignant. And
something of this insight can be seen in the gliding ease with which
Tiw gave up his hand to the Fenris Wulf.
In fact, it has recetnly come to light that the god's by-name, "Leavings of the Wolf" is indeed a reference to the immortal soul/eternal glory. Afterall, the wolf is metaphorically associated with death throughtout the Indo-European world, in Anglo-Saxon art and poetry the grave is depicted as a wolfheaded fiend, and in the Eddas thmselves the Fenriswulf is the sibling of Hell (who rules the land of the dead, the grave), and the Jormungand, a serpent/wyrm, which is also strongly associated with death and the grave. That bering set, one might then cast an eye to the Havamal, which tells that "cattle die, kinsmen die, and so shall you yourself, but I know one thing that never dies, a reputation well earned". That is the meaning of the "Leavings of the Wolf"
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2005 : 21:11:15
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Well met!
Baldur´s Gate is named after Balduran, a legendary seafaring explorer, who sailed past Evermeet in search of the isles of Anchorome (see FRA, page 77).
I do not think that Tyr of the Realms and Tyr of Scandinavian mythology need to be the same deity. Perhaps they are, perhaps they are not, yet there are no references to worship of either Loki or Odin in the Realms, and if they had been worshipped, there would be some proof left to indicate it.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 14:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I do not think that Tyr of the Realms and Tyr of Scandinavian mythology need to be the same deity. Perhaps they are, perhaps they are not, yet there are no references to worship of either Loki or Odin in the Realms, and if they had been worshipped, there would be some proof left to indicate it.
Not necessarily. It's quite apparent, given the reason for the name *Forgotten* Realms, and the similairity between the Illuskans and Teutonic folk, right on down to tribal names like the Rus, that the Illuskans hailed from Earth or were culturally defined by folk that did ... namely Teutonic and/or Norse folk. Now, add to this the existence of a god of law and judgment who is both onehanded (thanks ot a canine of chaos) and named TyR. Its most likely that the Nordic interlopers into the Realms carried the worship of all their gods with them, but only TyR followed them to the Realms ... while Odhinn and Laufey's son remained with Earth and were either forgotten by the Illuski, much like the gates they passed through, or relagated to mythic heroes.
In any event, outside of the official party line, which changes with each new deities book, it is glaringly obvious that the FR TyR is the "same" as our real world god of the same name.
If the comparison was considered to be inappropriate then the FR designer really shouldn't have used the name of a RW god ... the use of which **begs** the comparison.
I can only imagine how some other religous folk might react if one of the FR gods was named Christ and had been nailed to a cross! 
Cheers!
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
Edited by - Beowulf on 22 Jun 2005 14:32:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 17:28:20
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Several Realms deities are assumed to be from Earth, and/or share many characteristics with Earth deities.
Oghma, Mielikki, Silvanus, the late Tyche, Loviatar... I think Ilmater, as well. Plus, though Ed didn't add them, don't forget about the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 02:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Ilmater, as well.
Indeed. I recently came across another reference to an "'lmater" in the Finnish Otha Eda composition by the composer Jean Sibelius.
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 17:45:04
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To be perfectly frank, I have a hard time reconciling Tyr as presented in the Forgotten Realms to the Tyr known amongst the Scandinavians. Although I am by no means a scholar of ancient Norse religions, I don't think the portfolio or "divine focus" presented as Tyr in the Realms stretches to the Norse definition, nor do his clergy strike me as representing the Tyr of our own Earth.
Although the writers of the Realms have taken certain liberties in bringing forth our real world equivalents to the Faerun (particularly with respect to Mr. Greenwood's original vision of the Realms), I don't believe that the intention is to draw real world comparisons on a one for one basis. I highly doubt that the Tyr of the Realms is a deity that would be worshipped by the Illuskans, despite their 'Viking' flavor.  |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 22:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ty
To be perfectly frank, I have a hard time reconciling Tyr as presented in the Forgotten Realms to the Tyr known amongst the Scandinavians. Although I am by no means a scholar of ancient Norse religions, I don't think the portfolio or "divine focus" presented as Tyr in the Realms stretches to the Norse definition, nor do his clergy strike me as representing the Tyr of our own Earth.
I think that expertise in Norse-Teutonic myth would be a prerequisite in forming any such opinion. As a scholar of Norse-Teutonic myth, legend, lanaguage and culture I was actually taken aback by the insight displayed by FR's representation of Tyr. Althoughadmittedly, if one went by the Icelandic Eddas alone Torm might fit Tyr a bit better.
As for the Illuskans worshipping TyR; I don't see why not. There is more than one form of law and custom, and if the Illuskans are to have communities they need one form of law and custom or another. That leaves room for TyR. In fact, the return of his worship to the folk of Ruathym was the subject of an article written by yours truly in the first edition of the Candlekeep Compendium.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 23:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
That leaves room for TyR. In fact, the return of his worship to the folk of Ruathym was the subject of an article written by yours truly in the first edition of the Candlekeep Compendium.
Here is a preface to that article, which got sidelined for the final version. It is a more developed version of stuff that I had already posted in this thread sometime ago.
The Illuskans originally hailed from Earth. Specifically southern Scandinavia, with the time period being about the 3rd century BCE. By this point in Earth history the climate in the Scandinavian homeland, "that womb of nations" as at least one southern historian called it, began to grow colder and wetter, turning the soil to clay, and causing a marked decrease in the amount of arable farm and pasture land. Infant survival however, continued to remain five times that of the Stone Age. Thus, there was an ever growing surplus population that could not be sustained within traditional kindred boundaries.
While there was undoubtedly inter-kindred wars, brutal genocides in fact, some of which spat in the face of the ancient and customary rules of the wife-/cattle-raid and stood as an affront to the ancient god of righteous conflict, others were mutually agreed upon by the leaders and folk involved and likely brought a sorrowfilled pride to that same god. Sooner rather than later however, even better answers were found to this "cannabilism" and the surplus of various allied kindreds began uniting into new tribes and pushing their way into eastern Europe and the area of northern Germany, where they would lay the foundation of such later tribes and mega-tribes as the various Goths, the Semnones and their Suebi sibbs, the Tencteri, the Marsi, etc.
There was however, a third possible route of migration. And this route took an old sea-route into the British Isles which is known to have existed since the beginning of the Bronze Age (c1,800 BC). Unknown to modern Earth history, a number of these new late Bronze Age/early Iron Age "tribes" united into a mega-confederation which called itself the Illuski, and sought to follow this route into the isles, even as the Anglii, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians would do centuries later. During this journey however, the Illuski, were somehow driven off course. Unbeknowst to them, they sailed through a gate that emptied them in the Trackless Sea of Aber-Toril.
Unable to find the British Isles the Illuski turned back east. Thence, around c.-3,100 DR the first of the Illuski landed on Ruathym. Near the sea-shores they found mounds and rock-carvings with the inlaid "alf-cups" of their homeland, marks of a previous elfin prescence on the island. And they also found, and eventually came to inhabit the great stone fortresses left over from an age in which the dwarves dominated the island. The greatest and most impregnable of these is Rethgaard.
Naturally, the Illuski carried their gods with them into Aber-Toril, but they soon learned that their native gods did not hear them in this world. Thus, within a hundred years they were abandoned, relagated to the status of heroes within the legends of the Illuski, while their tribal shamen sought out and came into knowledge of the Powers active within this crystal sphere.
The worship of Tyr remained and continued to endure for several centuries after the arrival of the Illuski, but as fate would have it, the raider mentality, the mentality of wolfish desperation that the Illuskans carried with them into Aber-Toril never slackened or let up. It only deepened in the harsh island climes of their new homeland. Before long, Tyr would no longer heed their prayers, and truth be known, they offered up few enough of these. The Illuskans no longer had in them thought or care for justice or true heroism ... only for strength and the brutal, merciless nature of their wolfish climate.
Prior to this, before the spirit of righteousness and heroism began to sour in the Illuskan heart, a group of enterprising Northmen sailed their dragonships as far south as Coramshan, where they performed such great deeds there that the Calishites came to revere the name of the god their saviors thanked for victory ... Tyr. The Calishites called him Anach-Tyr, after a word in their own tongue meaning "shining, savior, hero".
Thus did the worship of Tyr continue in Aber-Toril, divorced form it's native folk. And in time, Tyr appeared to the survivors of the ruined Jhaamdathan Empire in the same "thunderous lawmaker" persona under which he had evovled in early Earth, and which was enjoying much success in both Calimshan and the Earthlands of southern Europe, where they came to call on and worship him by the Latin variant of his name "Deus".
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 01:29:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Ilmater, as well.
Indeed. I recently came across another reference to an "'lmater" in the Finnish Otha Eda composition by the composer Jean Sibelius.
Perhaps you mean 'Ilmatar', Sage? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 01:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
[quote]Originally posted by Asgetrion
Not necessarily. It's quite apparent, given the reason for the name *Forgotten* Realms, and the similairity between the Illuskans and Teutonic folk, right on down to tribal names like the Rus, that the Illuskans hailed from Earth or were culturally defined by folk that did ... namely Teutonic and/or Norse folk. Now, add to this the existence of a god of law and judgment who is both onehanded (thanks ot a canine of chaos) and named TyR. Its most likely that the Nordic interlopers into the Realms carried the worship of all their gods with them, but only TyR followed them to the Realms ... while Odhinn and Laufey's son remained with Earth and were either forgotten by the Illuski, much like the gates they passed through, or relagated to mythic heroes.
It is true that the name Forgotten Realms comes from the worlds beyond the portals and gates, as Ed himself has said so (with some of them leading to our Earth). This would explain the presence of deities from various RW pantheons (Mulhorandi, Finnish, Celtic, etcetera). However, not all of those deities or direct comparisons between nations of FR and RW were Ed's ideas. It is somewhat boring to say "Okay, Mulhorandi are Egyptians, Amnians are Greeks, Bedine are arabs..." (and so on). If these nations and people are "modeled" after RW equivalents, it kills off much of the unique flavor of the Realms.
It is possible that the Illuskans were vikings, but I am quite sure that Illusk as a nation is far older than the worship of Tyr in the Realms (I recall Tyr having been around for about 1000 years?). However, there was a reference to a temple of Tyr in Athalantar in the novel 'Elminster: the making of a mage', which would mean that Tyr's worship goes back more than 1000 years. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 02:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Ilmater, as well.
Indeed. I recently came across another reference to an "'lmater" in the Finnish Otha Eda composition by the composer Jean Sibelius.
Perhaps you mean 'Ilmatar', Sage?
No. The traditional poems that Sibelius used as a context for his works were taken directly from the actual "Eddas". 'lmater is considered the appropriate phrasing for that particular period. It could have perhaps evolved later to "Ilmater" I suppose...
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 03:11:19
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I don't mean to dispute your personal proposals as badly thought out or your expertise on Tyr in historical context Beowulf, but I have to at least bring up a few points that haven't been addressed regarding the Illuskans, Ruathym, Tyr, and Anachtyr and the problems with making assumptions that the Illuskan are Norse in origin. My memory is sketchy on specific details following so please bear with me as I hash out nearly 20 years of books, novels, and other materials all jumbled about in my noggin. 
As for Anachtyr, I faintly recall reading (perhaps from one of the Realms designers on these boards even) that a deity has always existed on Faerun holding the portfolio of Justice. As millenia come and go, deities grow old, tired and weak. It was suggested, I believe, that Anach ceded his portfolio and divinity to Tyr because the former god of justice was becoming tired and old. Tyr's origin seems to have initiated in a grand crusade throughout the Vilhon Reach, in which a lesser deity of chaos and anarchy was slain by Tyr and his allied host. This occurred only a millenia ago, and perhaps the Calimshan name of Anachtyr is simply Anach with the addition of Tyr when the new god took over the mantle of justice.
[Edit: Tyr arrived roughly 1500 years ago and the crusade evidently was the Procession of Justice.]
As for the city of Illusk/Luskan, that particular settlement has been settled, ravaged, resettled, destroyed, and again resettled, by so many varying races that it most likely has quite the mixing of heritage and background. I've actually never viewed the city as Viking in nature based on all the writings I've read to be perfectly honest. Granted, (paraphrasing here from LEoF), it was destroyed by raiders from the west, which I believe we can interpret to be from (or conquerors of)Ruathym.
I cannot honestly state, with any clarity, any specific Realmslore on Ruathym, but we also run into a large problem in this general geographic area. The original Realms never incorporated Northmen as they currently appear in the Moonshaes. I do not have any idea whether Ruathym was 'slapped' into the setting as the Moonshaes were or whether it originally appeared in Mr. Greenwoods original Realms. This would be a question I think we'd need to ask him. Nonetheless, we should discount the Moonshae Northmen as a factor supporting the Viking migration.
Tyr however, appears to be an original deity of the Realms from what I have gleaned on the subject. Therefore, in the original genesis of the Realms, we have Tyr, Illusk/Luskan, no Northmen, raiders from the west, and perhaps even Ruathym. We lack any presence of Odin, Thor, Loki, Baldur (as a deity), Forseti, or a host of other Nordic divinities. This Tyr is a god of justice and actually appears very similar in description to the Tyr of the Norse, however.
Altogether, given the fact that the designers of the Realms attempted to not describe various cultures in reference to real world equivalents, this also presents problems with this proposed theory.
I simply cannot draw the same conclusion that Vikings emigrated from Earth to the Realms, established colonies in the Moonshaes, Ruathym, Luskan, and other cities, became the dominant ethnicity in the North, and didn't carry anything with them other than one Viking tribe's name and one deity. Further, I think that we can establish that Tyr entered Realmspace nearly a millenia ago on a crusade with allies. I believe that one of those allies he brought with him was Ilmater. I also recall that at the time of this 'crusade,' there was a specific intent to remain in the Realms but that Tyr made that choice after witnessing firsthand the events on Toril. The fact that this crusade also occurred in the Vilhon Reach seems to detract from any theory that Tyr's religion was brought by Vikings moving south from the northern seas.
[Edit: Ilmater may or may not have served the prior "Anach," as Garen Thal's research seems to indicate that Ilmater joined Tyr in the Procession of Justice. He also found indications that Torm had not yet taken his position as a member of the Triad until after the Fall of Netheril. Thanks Garen for that post so long ago.  ]
Basically, I have very high doubts that we can draw comparisons from Earth's Nordic cultures to describe the Illuskan of the North or the Tyr of the Realms. It is as equally likely they came from an alternative world that had certain Nordic influences, but certainly differed also from Earth's Norse societies and beliefs. I think trying to reconcile an Earth analogy is doomed to failure in view of the canon material that is present as well as the non-canonical information that we here at Candlekeep are privy to. Sorry if I've gone on overly long or seemed harsh. I'm not meaning to offend, merely trying to offer constructive criticism.  |
Edited by - Ty on 24 Jun 2005 03:36:16 |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 03:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ty
Sorry if I've gone on overly long or seemed harsh. I'm not meaning to offend, merely trying to offer constructive criticism.
No fears. I see where you are coming from, and you make some very excellent points  . Indeed, I recall Ed making passing mention of the folk of Ruathym as mere pirates, with no indication of a Nordic element . And indeed, to the best of my knowledge the culture, if not the gene-pool, of Luskan is Netherese  .
Of course, the Moonshaes, and the effect of their insertion into Ed's Realms, has becoming a very recognizable part of the Realms ... with clear parallels with Norse and Celtic culture.
I suppose that, in the end, it all really depends upon where any individual DM wants to take their Realms ... be it closer to the Real World or a bit further away. 
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 05:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ty
I cannot honestly state, with any clarity, any specific Realmslore on Ruathym, but we also run into a large problem in this general geographic area.
Both the Savage Frontier tome, and The North boxed set contain a few pieces of lore on Ruathym.
quote:
The original Realms never incorporated Northmen as they currently appear in the Moonshaes. I do not have any idea whether Ruathym was 'slapped' into the setting as the Moonshaes were or whether it originally appeared in Mr. Greenwoods original Realms.
Ruathym is part of Ed's original 1e conception of the Realms. It receives several mentions in the Old Gray Box. Savage Frontier by Paul Jaquays is where the region is mostly fleshed out during those earlier days of the Realms.
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2005 : 16:46:47
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Thank you for your confirmation of the origin of Ruathym Sage. That's one of those answers I've not stumbled across in any definitive manner.
Beowulf, I did go back and examine Ruathym and Illusk in the context of the current writings in LEoF. I believe that if we look at the historical entries for the North, we'll find that Ruathym was settled by seafarers from the west in -3100 DR and that in -3000, the Ruathen actually settled the original Illusk.
Obviously, I was wrong in my order of progression regarding rebuilding, etc. It seems the Ruathen were there original settlers of Illusk. Drawing from this, it would appear then, that the original Ruathen are the 'Vikings' that Mr. Boyd was referring to. Moving this socio-ethnic background further, we can probably assume that the Ruathen of Illusk interbred with the native Delimbyrans and other native ethnicities of Faerun. Your proposed origin of Tyr isn't quite incompatible, but may require some 'tweaks.' For instance, we could basically assume that the interbreeding of Vikings with native Torilian humans would result in a stock of humans calling themselves the Illuskan. The Ruathen then, would most likely remain the most ethnically and culturally 'pure' base for any Vikings.
After the several sackings and refoundings of Illusk the city, we jump forward to 1310 DR when a vast fleet of pirates from the Nelanther Isles conquer Illusk. It is this catalyst that results in the current incarnation of Luskan. So, basically, we have almost 4000 years unaccounted for with respect to the Ruathen and the Illusken ethnicities.
This can leave some very large elbow room with your theory. Traveler's from ancient Ruathym 'could' have migrated to the southern regions of Faerun as the Vikings were wont to do, and with them came the worship of Tyr. One particularly devout group of warriors with a 'holy vision' from their god meeting the established church of 'Anach' could certainly explain the merging of the deities. Likewise, the continuous sacking of Illusk and the cultural mixing of the Ruathen with the native Faerunian's could degrade the culture to the point where other deities of the Nordic pantheon simply were subsumed into aspects of Faerunian deities.
Like I said, it's possible, but certainly would need some tweaks. I think it may be a good research and writing project to clear up some of these issues. A good explanation is definately needed. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 11:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Ilmater, as well.
Indeed. I recently came across another reference to an "'lmater" in the Finnish Otha Eda composition by the composer Jean Sibelius.
Perhaps you mean 'Ilmatar', Sage?
No. The traditional poems that Sibelius used as a context for his works were taken directly from the actual "Eddas". 'lmater is considered the appropriate phrasing for that particular period. It could have perhaps evolved later to "Ilmater" I suppose...
Hmmm, and I thought he used the Finnish national epic, 'Kalevala', but I may be wrong... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 11:51:01
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| Ty, I seem to recall that the lesser deity of Chaos and Anarchy that Tyr killed was Valigorn Thirdborn of the Jhaamdathan pantheon... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 14:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm, and I thought he used the Finnish national epic, 'Kalevala', but I may be wrong...
He did make use of the 'Kalevala', and as such, his usage of 'Ilmater' may have come much later. But the exact reference I was studying suggested that he was still using ''lmater' for much of his earlier work.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 11:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm, and I thought he used the Finnish national epic, 'Kalevala', but I may be wrong...
He did make use of the 'Kalevala', and as such, his usage of 'Ilmater' may have come much later. But the exact reference I was studying suggested that he was still using ''lmater' for much of his earlier work.
Aye, it may well be so. I have not studied this issue, so I assume that you're correct
Ilmatar is an ancient Finnish 'Creator deity', and linked to the powers of air through her name (ilma=air). I just assumed that Ed took her name and changed it to 'Ilmater' (which he apparently didn't) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Ty, I seem to recall that the lesser deity of Chaos and Anarchy that Tyr killed was Valigorn Thirdborn of the Jhaamdathan pantheon...
Thanks. That's the guy I was thinking of. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 21:37:34
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Eric,
Do you happen to know of any sources that reference Achanatyr apart and away from Tyr in a definitive manner? I've referenced RoUM, and F&A and can't find anything that seems to pin this down?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
There is an older aspect of Tyr name Anachtyr (sp?) who is ~4,000 years old and worshiped among Calishites. See Ruins of Undermountain: Campaign Guide and City of Splendors write-ups of Olophin. I think there's a reference in Dragon #227 as well. Also, if you read the Tyrite entry in Prayers from the Faithful, that's older than the 1,000 years as well.
--Eric
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Illuskans and Tyr
