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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 05:44:11
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Another question for the Furry Hamster - As you probably recall, you and I were talking about the temples in Waterdeep a few short weeks back, so I'm curious to hear about the treatment of the city religions in this new tome. In particular, how do the temples of Sune and Selune fair in their 3e write-ups?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 06:31:04
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So "Locales" stayed in ...? Interesting. Word was that it may have not made the final cut. Good to see that it stayed in - some nice, Fallen Kingdom/Kingdom of Man lore should be tucked in there.
-- George Krashos
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 08:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Another question for the Furry Hamster - As you probably recall, you and I were talking about the temples in Waterdeep a few short weeks back, so I'm curious to hear about the treatment of the city religions in this new tome. In particular, how do the temples of Sune and Selune fair in their 3e write-ups?
Selune was touched upon a fair bit.
Sune wasn't touched, other than being a patron deity of the Sun Soul Order.
I'll leave it up to the furry one to elaborate, still digesting this treat. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 11:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Another question for the Furry Hamster - As you probably recall, you and I were talking about the temples in Waterdeep a few short weeks back, so I'm curious to hear about the treatment of the city religions in this new tome. In particular, how do the temples of Sune and Selune fair in their 3e write-ups?
Most of the temples have about a half-page write-up. The write-ups are more of an organizational look than extensive descriptions of facilities or rituals. They have a description and then notes on being a part of the order: associated classes, requirements, important characters, things like that. Any affiliated orders are also listed here.
One interesting feature that I like is the Favored of Guild Fringe Benefit. If you are a member of the group (this isn't just for the churches) and take the Favored of Guild feat, then you receive an additional benefit (like certain spells you can learn, or a 10% discount on certain goods, or bonuses to certain skills, etc).
The church of Sune isn't described. Selūne, because of an affiliated order, receives about a page. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 13:38:19
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Wow... I shouldn't have just skimmed the Lords of Waterdeep section like I did yesterday. I wound up missing a major -- and potentially scary! -- development that I read about this morning, when I actually took the time to read that section.
Nindil Jalbuck has been replaced by Hlaavin! That does not bode well for the other Lords...
I wonder if this will be further explored in the novel? |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 14:03:22
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Wooly (and other scribes that have the book, too), some questions:
- Khelben has received some information update? And the Moonstars?
- The same question about Halaster Blackcloack. There are same news about it?
- There is a Watherdavian Timeline in the book? If it exists, what is the currency year/month?
Thanks in advance,
Chosen of Moradin |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 14:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Wooly (and other scribes that have the book, too), some questions:
- Khelben has received some information update? And the Moonstars?
- The same question about Halaster Blackcloack. There are same news about it?
- There is a Watherdavian Timeline in the book? If it exists, what is the currency year/month?
Thanks in advance,
Chosen of Moradin
The Moonstars receive good coverage, as well as Halaster's Heirs. I don't think anyone will be disappointed with this tome. I do believe this is the best 3ed sourcebook so far. I do agree that the tome needs an index, but at least the table of contents is fairly detailed. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 14:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow... I shouldn't have just skimmed the Lords of Waterdeep section like I did yesterday. I wound up missing a major -- and potentially scary! -- development that I read about this morning, when I actually took the time to read that section.
Nindil Jalbuck has been replaced by Hlaavin! That does not bode well for the other Lords...
I wonder if this will be further explored in the novel?
 Now that's a curious turn...
Does it say when Jalbuck was replaced?
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Jun 2005 14:35:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 17:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow... I shouldn't have just skimmed the Lords of Waterdeep section like I did yesterday. I wound up missing a major -- and potentially scary! -- development that I read about this morning, when I actually took the time to read that section.
Nindil Jalbuck has been replaced by Hlaavin! That does not bode well for the other Lords...
I wonder if this will be further explored in the novel?
Now that's a curious turn...
Does it say when Jalbuck was replaced?
I don't recall. I'll check when I get home. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 17:48:56
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My book is on order with Chapters in Canada, and has not hit this area.
But I was wondering if anyone one could give a table of cotents, just to look at. Please and Thanks. |
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Edited by - Foxhelm on 17 Jun 2005 17:54:52 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 22:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Wow they only took 1 page from this one!
Nah 3. 2 ads, and the Buy Me list. The Buy Me list is most annoying. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 22:13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by monch9
Care to give us a glimpse 
Danilo Aristocrat 3/Wizard 9/sellspinger 1
Arilyn Rogue 1/Fighter 4/Harper Agent 5
I disagree with Harper Agent still, but atleast it references the Player's Guide version and not the silly magic user original.
Find it odd that Arilyn wouldn't have Weapon Spec Longsword and Danilo no bardic levels though.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 22:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
My book is on order with Chapters in Canada, and has not hit this area.
But I was wondering if anyone one could give a table of cotents, just to look at. Please and Thanks.
Chapter 1: The City of Splendors 6-21
Chapter 2: People of Waterdeep 22-76
Chapter 3: Prestige Classes 77-90
Chapter 4: Waterdeep Locales 91-111
Chapter 5: Adventures in Waterdeep 112-133
Chapter 6: Monsters of Waterdeep 134-143
Chapter 7: Heroes and Magic 144-157
I'd offer up a listing of all the topics in each chapter, but I'm not ambitious enough to type that out.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 22:53:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow... I shouldn't have just skimmed the Lords of Waterdeep section like I did yesterday. I wound up missing a major -- and potentially scary! -- development that I read about this morning, when I actually took the time to read that section.
Nindil Jalbuck has been replaced by Hlaavin! That does not bode well for the other Lords...
I wonder if this will be further explored in the novel?
Now that's a curious turn...
Does it say when Jalbuck was replaced?
I don't recall. I'll check when I get home.
Six months ago. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 23:02:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Wooly (and other scribes that have the book, too), some questions:
- Khelben has received some information update? And the Moonstars?
I've not read that far yet. I'm reading it straight thru, not jumping around (other than when I skimmed the section on the Lords).
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
- The same question about Halaster Blackcloack. There are same news about it?
See above. Though I have read the info on the academy Muiral and Trobriand the Metal Mage have set up.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
- There is a Watherdavian Timeline in the book? If it exists, what is the currency year/month?
Thanks in advance,
Chosen of Moradin
There is a History of Waterdeep section that gives information about each of the eras of Waterdhavian history, from -8500 DR to the present. That section is about 7 pages of text -- still not enough for me!
It's not a timeline like A Grand History of the Realms, with every even dated in a long list of dates. It's more of a "During this era, which last from a long time ago to a bit more recently, a lot of stuff happened. Someone did something, someone else did something else a year later, and six years after that, a third person kacked." -type thing.
Of course it's a bit more informative than that.
As for what the current date is, I've either not seen it or skipped over it in my rush to devour wonderful Realmslore about the greatest city in the Realms!  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Jun 2005 23:03:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 23:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
Splendid! I'm certainly looking forward to this tome
Tell me, Wooly, what is the format of the 8 maps within?
The first is a map of the entire city, showing the boundaries of each Ward.
Six more full-page maps show a good chunk (but sometimes not all) of each ward, with a bit of overlap for a complete picture.
There's two half-page maps, showing the islands around the harbor.
There's also a full-page map of the sewers.
And of course, all the maps are keyed.
There's also a map of some vault. |
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 23:20:59
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Sorry folks, but I am very, very dissapointed. I was really looking forward to this as a supplement to my campaign, instead it seems to be something written more for someone who wants to write a novel or book about the City of Splendors, and thats a pity as I wanted a 'Game Aid' that I could use in my game.
I luckily spent some time looking at the book before blowing $40+ on it. I wanted a breakdown of the city to adventure in, that means maps and descriptions with specific reference to the city. Instead, after 90 pages I get 20 pages of confused maps with minimal descriptions (name, funcition, type of building, # of floors), no interior layouts, shopowner NPC's, items for sale, nothing! Then some mini-adventures (which looked nice, but really could have been put in Dungeon magazine or something instead of this book). This book is more of an 'overview' of the city than something that is really useful in a campaign. I can't just open it up and say "you walk into the Smithy and see a Shield dwarf working the forge" and have a list of his items for sale, his name, with maybe a hook or two for quicky adventures.
While its nice to know the background of the city, I think a paragraph or two would have sufficed, not a masters thesis on the history of Waterdeep, which I think was way too much useless information. My players are never going to use the knowledge of who was in the city 500 years ago, but it would have been nice to know what type of person frequented a certain tavern down by the docks...
With the quality of the writers that work on FR I would have expected something a lot more involved and detailed, for gaming not background. Suffice to say the detail that was given was excellent, but in terms of gaming; mostly useless as it usually didn't pertain to stuff that the players would readily use in game.
Did any of the writers look at The City State of the Invincible Overlord? While its layout was pretty poor and it really requires some indexing and cross-referencing to use, it did have excellent detail of the various folks, stores and other places in that city. Also it included a large scale map, something that I noted that Waterdeep did not contain, which means that its very difficult to 'show' the players the city without endlessly cracking open the book and showing them each 1 page section of the city.
I guess I'll have to bash together some old CityState maps and such for my Waterdeep campaign because this book just doesn't cut it.
cya
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 23:29:44
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| I gotta say, I really like the Guild/Group blurb format, I wish it had been used in CoR (and hope it is in CoV). |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 02:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
Sorry folks, but I am very, very dissapointed. I was really looking forward to this as a supplement to my campaign, instead it seems to be something written more for someone who wants to write a novel or book about the City of Splendors, and thats a pity as I wanted a 'Game Aid' that I could use in my game.
I luckily spent some time looking at the book before blowing $40+ on it. I wanted a breakdown of the city to adventure in, that means maps and descriptions with specific reference to the city. Instead, after 90 pages I get 20 pages of confused maps with minimal descriptions (name, funcition, type of building, # of floors), no interior layouts, shopowner NPC's, items for sale, nothing! Then some mini-adventures (which looked nice, but really could have been put in Dungeon magazine or something instead of this book). This book is more of an 'overview' of the city than something that is really useful in a campaign. I can't just open it up and say "you walk into the Smithy and see a Shield dwarf working the forge" and have a list of his items for sale, his name, with maybe a hook or two for quicky adventures.
While its nice to know the background of the city, I think a paragraph or two would have sufficed, not a masters thesis on the history of Waterdeep, which I think was way too much useless information. My players are never going to use the knowledge of who was in the city 500 years ago, but it would have been nice to know what type of person frequented a certain tavern down by the docks...
With the quality of the writers that work on FR I would have expected something a lot more involved and detailed, for gaming not background. Suffice to say the detail that was given was excellent, but in terms of gaming; mostly useless as it usually didn't pertain to stuff that the players would readily use in game.
Did any of the writers look at The City State of the Invincible Overlord? While its layout was pretty poor and it really requires some indexing and cross-referencing to use, it did have excellent detail of the various folks, stores and other places in that city. Also it included a large scale map, something that I noted that Waterdeep did not contain, which means that its very difficult to 'show' the players the city without endlessly cracking open the book and showing them each 1 page section of the city.
I guess I'll have to bash together some old CityState maps and such for my Waterdeep campaign because this book just doesn't cut it.
cya
What you are looking for has already been done in previous Editions.
Kuje prob could list off the specific tomes better than I could.
What this book has done is given us new and updated lore. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
What you are looking for has already been done in previous Editions.
Kuje prob could list off the specific tomes better than I could.
What this book has done is given us new and updated lore.
The old City of Splendors boxed set may be more to your liking Sgain, or the Waterdeep and the North tome. The older boxed set breaks the city down into parts which might suit your interests more. Although, I can't see the current tome for the city being all that different.
There were some cleverly designed maps that came along with the PC games that were based in Waterdeep. And the older boxed set had an amazing arrays of map and other gaming aids for adventuring in Waterdeep.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:37:54
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| Don't forget Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:45:46
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My problem is that I shouldn't have to dig up old first or 3rd edition stuff to play a game in Waterdeep. I thought the book was going to be a gameaid, not a outline of the place, which is basically is. Also, I shouldn't have to buy a bunch of other modules/books to have the basic city structure.
I guess it comes down to what I was hoping for in this book; a complete 'guide' for a DM to setup and run a campaign with. Not an outline of the history, prestige classes, High level NPC's and some small undetailed maps of the city.
I'm very depressed about the whole thing, as I was going to move my group there soon. Now I have to create the city pretty much from scratch. It seems to be a 'fluffy' book, and thats a real pity. I've never even seen the boxed edition of the city (dang!), so I'm pretty much going to spend a ton of time to recreate the city.
Oh well
cya
Sgain |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 06:00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
My problem is that I shouldn't have to dig up old first or 3rd edition stuff to play a game in Waterdeep. I thought the book was going to be a gameaid, not a outline of the place, which is basically is. Also, I shouldn't have to buy a bunch of other modules/books to have the basic city structure.
I guess it comes down to what I was hoping for in this book; a complete 'guide' for a DM to setup and run a campaign with. Not an outline of the history, prestige classes, High level NPC's and some small undetailed maps of the city.
I'm very depressed about the whole thing, as I was going to move my group there soon. Now I have to create the city pretty much from scratch. It seems to be a 'fluffy' book, and thats a real pity. I've never even seen the boxed edition of the city (dang!), so I'm pretty much going to spend a ton of time to recreate the city.
Oh well
cya
Sgain
Actually, buying this book and then digging up the old material would likely be cheaper than it would have been for them to have covered all the old material and added new material. If they'd have done that, the book would likely be three times the size it is now. And the price would be at least twice what it is now, if not three times or more.
I'll admit that there certainly could be more info on the physical layout. Still, though, there is a full 20 pages -- that's more than a lot of Realms cities have gotten.
I actually like the fact that the book focuses more on the people of the city. After all, that's what makes the city come alive. Without the people, a city is just a flavorless collection of buildings.
Oh, and you know what? Regardless of whether or not you've got the old material or just this new book, you'd still have to do some serious winging it. I don't think we've ever had more than 200 buildings described, and most of those descriptions are just a few paragraphs. And yet, Waterdeep is a city of more than 100,000 residents -- so there's thousands of buildings that have never even been mentioned in passing, and dozens of streets that no guidebook has walk us down.
I'm sorry if you feel that not having a pre-made city ready for you in one book is a bad thing. I, for one, am very happy with this book. The history is vital, and the people are the city. I consider this book to be an invaluable supplement to the huge body of lore we already have on this city. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 08:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sgain
My problem is that I shouldn't have to dig up old first or 3rd edition stuff to play a game in Waterdeep. I thought the book was going to be a gameaid, not a outline of the place, which is basically is. Also, I shouldn't have to buy a bunch of other modules/books to have the basic city structure.
I guess it comes down to what I was hoping for in this book; a complete 'guide' for a DM to setup and run a campaign with. Not an outline of the history, prestige classes, High level NPC's and some small undetailed maps of the city.
I'm very depressed about the whole thing, as I was going to move my group there soon. Now I have to create the city pretty much from scratch. It seems to be a 'fluffy' book, and thats a real pity. I've never even seen the boxed edition of the city (dang!), so I'm pretty much going to spend a ton of time to recreate the city.
Oh well
cya
Sgain
Actually, buying this book and then digging up the old material would likely be cheaper than it would have been for them to have covered all the old material and added new material. If they'd have done that, the book would likely be three times the size it is now. And the price would be at least twice what it is now, if not three times or more.
I'll admit that there certainly could be more info on the physical layout. Still, though, there is a full 20 pages -- that's more than a lot of Realms cities have gotten.
I actually like the fact that the book focuses more on the people of the city. After all, that's what makes the city come alive. Without the people, a city is just a flavorless collection of buildings.
Oh, and you know what? Regardless of whether or not you've got the old material or just this new book, you'd still have to do some serious winging it. I don't think we've ever had more than 200 buildings described, and most of those descriptions are just a few paragraphs. And yet, Waterdeep is a city of more than 100,000 residents -- so there's thousands of buildings that have never even been mentioned in passing, and dozens of streets that no guidebook has walk us down.
I'm sorry if you feel that not having a pre-made city ready for you in one book is a bad thing. I, for one, am very happy with this book. The history is vital, and the people are the city. I consider this book to be an invaluable supplement to the huge body of lore we already have on this city.
Maybe he wants to play follow the dotted line?
Seems no matter what the authors do, someone will complain of too much or not enough information.
Given the space he had to work with, I think Eric did a Great Job. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 08:59:16
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I can well understand Sgain's disappointment, because CoS:W was not the product he is obviously looking for. In fact, it was never going to be the product he was looking for and in all seriousness I don't think there will ever be a product detailing a city of any decent size that will satisfy the needs of a campaign without any personal input from the DM. The only comment I can make is that the Realms has always been a balancing act between the old and the new. Many FR fans have been fortunate to be avid followers of the setting since 1987. They have likely bought and perused the 4 or so products already released on Waterdeep - together, IMHO, they provide enough material for anyone to game in Waterdeep. Unfortunately, 3E has seen many new gamers embrace the Realms. This is a great thing, but likely frustrating for them when they get told "Find Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, or the 2E boxed set or the 1E accessory before that ...". Heck, for all I know, these accessories were printed when Sgain was still in diapers. It's unfortunate, but a reality of the Realms. What Sgain and those in his situation have to realise is that there are many old-time fans of FR who don't want to see a re-hash of old material with new 3E game mechanics tacked onto them. They simply won't buy the product. WotC have realised that they can't keep inventing the wheel when it comes to the Realms. New gamers get enough information to have a 3E foundation for the setting. Old gamers get new information to supplement and enhance what they've read and purchased before. When it comes to places that have been covered in previous editions, Sgain's problems and complaints will continue to recur. They are certainly valid to an extent, but read on for a few more thoughts.
A couple of further comments - back in the late 1980s when the first Waterdeep accessory came out, its problems were exactly the ones that Sgain complains of. What I think he doesn't quite realise is just how big the place is. He wants blacksmiths? There are probably over a hundred in the city. Grocers? Five hundred. Etc. etc. No 160 page sourcebook was ever going to give Sgain the level of detail he seems to need to run a campaign without having to 'make things up from scratch'. I once heard however, that making things up was one of the fun parts of gaming in the Realms ... I have however noticed a tendency in 3E for gamers to want everything covered, detailed and official. No-one seems to be content with a description, leaving them to add in the details or game mechanics. In this sense the hobby has changed markedly from its beginnings.
As an aside, I'm wondering whether the Eberron "Sharn: City of Towers" is a 'complete' product? Can a DM set a campaign there without making stuff up from scratch? Eberron is a new setting - there is no 'old stuff' out there for new gamers to have missed out on. If the answer is no, then it may point to the conclusion that Sgain has some unrealistic expectations of such gaming products, but that's not for me to say. I'd welcome his response on this topic however.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 09:01:58
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Oh and one more thing - Sgain, get a copy of "The City of Ravens Bluff" FR product. Sure it's 2E but it sounds like the product you are looking for.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 11:06:43
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Krash, as usual you've raised some valid points.
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In fact, it was never going to be the product he was looking for and in all seriousness I don't think there will ever be a product detailing a city of any decent size that will satisfy the needs of a campaign without any personal input from the DM.
Indeed. We need only look at other 'city' or 'realm' books for 2e FR to find an example of this. I know personally that I've never been able to use each and every Realms accessory "as they come". Each book, no matter what it details, has required a fair degree of input on my part to make it work, as well as making it 'fit in' with my campaign.
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The only comment I can make is that the Realms has always been a balancing act between the old and the new. Many FR fans have been fortunate to be avid followers of the setting since 1987. They have likely bought and perused the 4 or so products already released on Waterdeep - together, IMHO, they provide enough material for anyone to game in Waterdeep. Unfortunately, 3E has seen many new gamers embrace the Realms. This is a great thing, but likely frustrating for them when they get told "Find Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, or the 2E boxed set or the 1E accessory before that ...". Heck, for all I know, these accessories were printed when Sgain was still in diapers. It's unfortunate, but a reality of the Realms.
There is also the possibility that the author or authors may have written more about a particular place or city than has already been covered.
Ed's likely got plenty of notebooks stashed away in his stacks of boxes in the basement with all kinds of scribbled down notes about the City of Splendors... notes which have never even seen publication. So, even having access to older material isn't enough to warrant a 'complete' feeling for Waterdeep.
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What Sgain and those in his situation have to realise is that there are many old-time fans of FR who don't want to see a re-hash of old material with new 3E game mechanics tacked onto them. They simply won't buy the product. WotC have realised that they can't keep inventing the wheel when it comes to the Realms. New gamers get enough information to have a 3E foundation for the setting. Old gamers get new information to supplement and enhance what they've read and purchased before. When it comes to places that have been covered in previous editions, Sgain's problems and complaints will continue to recur. They are certainly valid to an extent, but read on for a few more thoughts.
All too true. When 4th Edition D&D does eventually come around, we are just as likely to see all the current Realms material undergo a series of updates -- the simple fact is, we're dealing with a living, evolving world. It's always growing and always changing.
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A couple of further comments - back in the late 1980s when the first Waterdeep accessory came out, its problems were exactly the ones that Sgain complains of. What I think he doesn't quite realise is just how big the place is. He wants blacksmiths? There are probably over a hundred in the city. Grocers? Five hundred. Etc. etc. No 160 page sourcebook was ever going to give Sgain the level of detail he seems to need to run a campaign without having to 'make things up from scratch'. I once heard however, that making things up was one of the fun parts of gaming in the Realms ... I have however noticed a tendency in 3E for gamers to want everything covered, detailed and official. No-one seems to be content with a description, leaving them to add in the details or game mechanics. In this sense the hobby has changed markedly from its beginnings.
This goes back to what I was saying earlier about Ed's notes on Waterdeep. Those notes are notes for the Waterdeep in his FR campaign, not the Waterdeep published by WotC. So in this regard, I agree with Krash.
As I said earlier, I've never used an FR product solely as it was published. The source material from each and every FR product I've purchased since 1e has ultimately been shaped and sculpted to fit in with my personal interpretation of the Realms.
Heck, my original working on Thay was initially based on the six basic paragraphs from the old grey boxed set. I took that material and expanded upon it with many of my own ideas which have now merged with all the material that has been published on Thay over the last 15+ years generating a 'rich' and 'full' history for the land of the Red Wizards. But, it is by no means a 'complete' history. And I would never want it to be. Where's the fun in having all the history and all the answers about a place? Where's the room for expansion... where's the room for change? The point here is, once you learn everything about a place in the Realms, that place will eventually fail to maintain an active interest for you and you'll likely stop using that area in your campaigns because there's "nothing left to learn".
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As an aside, I'm wondering whether the Eberron "Sharn: City of Towers" is a 'complete' product? Can a DM set a campaign there without making stuff up from scratch? Eberron is a new setting - there is no 'old stuff' out there for new gamers to have missed out on. If the answer is no, then it may point to the conclusion that Sgain has some unrealistic expectations of such gaming products, but that's not for me to say. I'd welcome his response on this topic however.
On the whole, and using your above points as a guide, I'd say... no, S:CoT is not a 'complete' product. Baker and Wyatt even confirmed this after the first few weeks of its initial release. Keith stated on numerous occasions that many of his ideas and material were left out of the final product because WotC didn't want to overwhelm the 'new' setting too quickly with histories and setting material -- simply, there was enough lore on the City of Towers to fill three or four sourcebooks.
That is how I've always seen Waterdeep. Despite the fact that some of us have had the opportunity to read the 4+ sourcebooks detailing the City of Splendors, the simple fact is, these books only cover the most important aspects and areas of the city -- and even if those of us with access to those previous tomes continue to use them in our campaigns, we still don't have access to the "whole" picture of Waterdeep.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 13:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nindil Jalbuck has been replaced by Hlaavin! That does not bode well for the other Lords...
I wonder if this will be further explored in the novel?
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City of Splendors: Waterdeep sourcebook
