| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Oct 2005 : 00:16:40
|
I strongly echo Wooly's comment.
Have no fears for the workers, RF: though they're shown to have their warts, too, it's obvious that Ed and Elaine feel the same way about honest toil as you do. You'll see.
I think this book is their strongest TSR/WotC work thus far, for both of them. Not as dramatic as scenes they've separately written elsewhere, but . . . easily told, entertains, moves along: all in all, superior.
love,
THO |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2005 : 01:44:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I strongly echo Wooly's comment.
Have no fears for the workers, RF: though they're shown to have their warts, too, it's obvious that Ed and Elaine feel the same way about honest toil as you do. You'll see.
I think this book is their strongest TSR/WotC work thus far, for both of them. Not as dramatic as scenes they've separately written elsewhere, but . . . easily told, entertains, moves along: all in all, superior.
love,
THO
And I entirely agree  .
I think I stated earlier in my thoughts about CoS that this was such a fantastic result of collaborative writing... I'm hoping this isn't a "one-off".
Rinonalyrna, as for the Gemcloaks... let me just say that they'll have their moments to "shine"  .
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2005 : 19:54:48
|
*nods* You're correct, all three of you. I'm about one-fourth of the way through the book now, and I'm very delighted to find that plenty of other characters in the book shared my opinion! Including Mirt the Moneylender. I had the feeling I wouldn't be let down, and I wasn't. The scene with Mirt the Moneylender was amazing, and not only that, it changed my opinion of Korvaun.
Also, I'm very much enjoying the female characters in the book--especially Lark. Her wry cynicism and world-weariness is very amusing (and understandable). I'm at the ballroom scene right now, and I'm just as anxious as the ball-goers to see Elaith Craulnober show up.
I'm having fun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Oct 2005 19:55:09 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 19:46:54
|
Just as an update...
I'm a little more than halfway through the book now, and I'm really enjoying it. It would have been very easy to make the Gemcloaks all carbon copies of each other, but both authors have deftly avoided that and given them all distinguishable and interesting personalities. I'm impressed. I still think my favorite characters are the women, though--they are all intelligent (perhaps moreso than the Gemcloaks) and they also have their own enjoyable personalities to boot. These personalities also grow and change, as I was rightly told.
Elaith comes off as both mean and sexy at the same time. Yowsa...I wouldn't mind giving him a kiss... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Oct 2005 20:07:04 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2005 : 05:23:30
|
Finished the book! It was a great ride, and I'm glad to have spent the time with it. Just one thing has me *really* thinking...
*SPOILER*
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Was anyone else surprised at how Beldar decided to swap appearances with Korvaun (and by the way, I was so sad when he died! )? I know Naoni mentioned how Beldar would be hunted by the priests of Amalgamation anyway, but would that be worse than living the rest of your life as someone else? That's basically living a lie. I'm not sure if I could go through with something like that.
|
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2005 : 15:49:55
|
Yes, 'twas a sacrifice as much as an escape. That's one matter I wish Ed and Elaine had spent more time on; it DOES come across as awfully abrupt (which is fine), and would have benefited by a followup explorative scene later.
love,
THO |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2005 : 19:57:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Yes, 'twas a sacrifice as much as an escape. That's one matter I wish Ed and Elaine had spent more time on; it DOES come across as awfully abrupt (which is fine), and would have benefited by a followup explorative scene later.
love,
THO
True enough--Beldar didn't have much time to make a decision, but I wonder if he later thought of the tremedous implications of having to live the rest of his life pretending to be another person. It's a strange thing, but also brave, and I have to commend the authors for doing something so original.
A simple request, Hooded One: could you tell Ed that I enjoyed this book? I would very much appreciate it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Oct 2005 19:58:49 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2005 : 01:58:28
|
Hi, Rinonalyrna Fathomlin. I sent your post to Ed, and he just sent me an e-reply back for you, as follows:
Thank you VERY much for telling me you liked CoS. For me, that crowns the fun I had with Elaine writing it. I don’t write Realms novels to win awards or to make millions; I write them to entertain people, and it brightens my week when someone whose judgement and taste I respect tells me they liked something I created or shared in the creation of. Elaine and I tucked a lot of moral dilemmas and ‘important’ moments for characters into CoS that we didn’t stop the light, fun and fast-moving narrative tone to highlight, and I’ve been very interested to see which ones various readers pick up on and comment on. (I.e. do most readers care that we gave villains this treatment as well as heroes, or do they focus on the heroes’ wrestlings?)
Thanks again for sending your enjoyment via the Lady Hooded. THIS is what keeps me writing.
Ed
And there you have it. The man himself is deep in writing another Realms novel right now (you can probably guess which one), and is humming contentedly along.
love,
THO
|
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2005 : 19:52:59
|
SPOILER WARNING:
Waterdeep is a city of secrets, starting with the masked Lords of Waterdeep; thus, the ability to keep a secret is an important measure of leadership potential. So you might say that Beldar has before him one giant test of this ability.
Also, this decision seemed consistent with his concept of his destiny--to be the hero who defied death. He believes that his path to greatness began with "mingling with monsters," and if fact he did receive the Guardian's Gorget during the process--and with it, an important role in Waterdeep's defense. By the end of the novel, Beldar was training in earnest for an open role in governance. Where this path ends, who can say? :) |
|
|
|
Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2005 : 23:36:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
SPOILER WARNING:
Waterdeep is a city of secrets, starting with the masked Lords of Waterdeep; thus, the ability to keep a secret is an important measure of leadership potential. So you might say that Beldar has before him one giant test of this ability.
Also, this decision seemed consistent with his concept of his destiny--to be the hero who defied death. He believes that his path to greatness began with "mingling with monsters," and if fact he did receive the Guardian's Gorget during the process--and with it, an important role in Waterdeep's defense. By the end of the novel, Beldar was training in earnest for an open role in governance. Where this path ends, who can say? :)
I personally found Beldar to be the most enjoyable character in the book because he makes real mistakes, and they are mistakes that can be understood. More than that, he suffers the consequences of those mistakes and I would like to believe he learns from them. I can relate to the feeling of ambition that burns in Beldar, and I can really empathize with how frustrated he becomes as even his best intentions lead to ever more negative consequences and his ambition leads him down a road where even his own choices aren't his own anymore. The death of the Halfling and Beldar's consequent anguish are prime examples of this. All the characters were well done, but Beldar was the best followed closely by Lark and Elaith IMHO.
I hope that another tale may explore Beldar down the road so we can see exactly where the road you allude to leads. |
|
|
|
riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 00:39:44
|
just finished CoS the other day and took two days to digest things. i can't remember another FR book that has taken me longer to read than CoS. it just didn't grab me. i know that view point will not be shared by most folks, but i had very high expectations for this title as EC is one of my favorite authors. the book just didn't do it for me. i shall expound...
i did not feel the usual intrigue and plot twists i am used to with other EC novels. since it is waterdeep, i expected a little more intrigue which i felt in EC's previous waterdeep novels. but it felt like a fairly linear and straight forward plot. a few dead ends were thrown in, but not enough and the dead ends never circled back. i thought a lot of loose ends were not tied up at the end either.
the thing that took away from the novel for me the most was the back and forth between EC and EG. i think i was easily able to pick out each authors passages with at least 80% accuracy. EC has some INCREDIBLE passages detailing setting, mood, plot elements, etc. a few passages i finished and had to shut the book and just say "wow". nice writing. EG puts some fantastic dialogue into characters mouth's and has some really humerous moments. but the back and forth just did not do it for me, the sum was less than the parts in my opinion.
EC really explains this book well in saying (paraphrasing from earlier in this thread) that it is a novel within waterdeep, not the waterdeep novel. i would have preferred more waterdeep history in an evermeet type style. would really have loved to see more of blackstaff, from whom we shall hopefully see a full novel on. the novel goes out of it's way to describe and give voice to various waterdeep citizens, perhaps too much, as i prefer books that say a lot with few words, a strong point of EC.
Elaith was the highlight of the book. hopefully we can look forward to a novel detailing this character. we definitely learn a lot more about the character and his conflicts. mirt continues to appeal to me after reading this book and the first two of the cale triology.
to sum it up, an interesting read with great insights into some previously known characters. i enjoyed some of the new characters, but others not so much. EC has some incredible passages that are amazing, EG has some great lines and humor. but the sum did not equal its parts and i thought the writing styles of the two authors really clashed.
SPOILER WARNING
regarding beldar, he had also taken to some questionable practices including murder, which was not publically seen but was likely seen by someone. suffice to say his image had been substantially tarnished. also, i would imagine a would be leader having a tough time over coming an eye patch without (or even with!) a legit story to back it up. certainly the truth would never be told and beldar seemed honorable enough towards the end to not lie. *shrug* i just don't see how beldar could possibly have recovered from his tarnished image without a new start of sorts.
did any one else find the graveyard romance a bit far fetched? prior to the graveyard scene, the developing romance was subtle and extremely well done. but both characters going into the scene merely felt some desire. by the end of the scene, they had pledged undieing love, first born, and last name?! would have been a better scene without a consumation of said instant love, but i guess it had to happen eventually for the resolution of the story to have certain elements included. just thought this should have been developed a bit more. especially considering both characters begin that scene with substantial doubts about a possible romance. |
-steve |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 06:20:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, Rinonalyrna Fathomlin. I sent your post to Ed, and he just sent me an e-reply back for you, as follows:
Thank you VERY much for telling me you liked CoS. For me, that crowns the fun I had with Elaine writing it. I don’t write Realms novels to win awards or to make millions; I write them to entertain people, and it brightens my week when someone whose judgement and taste I respect tells me they liked something I created or shared in the creation of. Elaine and I tucked a lot of moral dilemmas and ‘important’ moments for characters into CoS that we didn’t stop the light, fun and fast-moving narrative tone to highlight, and I’ve been very interested to see which ones various readers pick up on and comment on. (I.e. do most readers care that we gave villains this treatment as well as heroes, or do they focus on the heroes’ wrestlings?)
Thanks again for sending your enjoyment via the Lady Hooded. THIS is what keeps me writing.
Ed
And there you have it. The man himself is deep in writing another Realms novel right now (you can probably guess which one), and is humming contentedly along.
love,
THO
You're welcome, Ed! Thank you for relaying my message, Hooded One--I'm so happy I got a response!
And by the way, I like it when authors give villains "human moments" just as they give them to heroes. I don't mind sympathizing with the bad guy now and then. Mrelder is a man with ill intentions, but I could not help but feel for him when it came to the conflicts he had with his father, and what Piergeiron told him about how any father would be pleased to have a son like him.
What could be more human than a desire to please one's parent? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 06:27:22
|
Beware the spoilers...
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
SPOILER WARNING:
Waterdeep is a city of secrets, starting with the masked Lords of Waterdeep; thus, the ability to keep a secret is an important measure of leadership potential. So you might say that Beldar has before him one giant test of this ability.
Wow. To be honest, I never even thought of it that way.
quote:
Also, this decision seemed consistent with his concept of his destiny--to be the hero who defied death. He believes that his path to greatness began with "mingling with monsters," and if fact he did receive the Guardian's Gorget during the process--and with it, an important role in Waterdeep's defense. By the end of the novel, Beldar was training in earnest for an open role in governance. Where this path ends, who can say? :)
True--throughout the book Beldar is intent on fullfiling his perceived destiny rather than letting it fullfil itself. But still, I have some questions. For example, does he always have to keep the slipshield shirt on to keep the disguise? That must be annoying when he washes himself. If he accidently loses his "secret identity" (mistakes happen!), could he get it back, now that the real Korvaun is dead?
Also, I can't help but wonder how Naoni (who is a sweet girl) will feel being married to someone who LOOKS like her dearest love, but really isn't. Like I said, there is some sadness to the situation, but it is remarkable all the same.
|
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Oct 2005 06:28:47 |
|
|
|
Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 01:05:05
|
Riverc0il, I’m not going to get into an argument with you over the quality of City of Splendors. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, and the book obviously disappointed you. Fair enough.
However, I am going to take issue with some of your specific observations and beefs.
First off: many, many reviewers fall into the same trap you did, by saying, “this book isn’t the book I wanted it to be.”
Well, too bad. Unless you personally commission a literary work, or write it yourself (and often - - see below - - not even then) you never get to decide its contents in detail. Trust me: I write books (sf novels) for a living.
The authors have posted here and elsewhere, and said in various radio interviews I’ve heard, that WotC editorial direction prevented them from doing an Evermeet- or Cormyr-style “lots of back history” book.
They’ve also said that Peter Archer, their editor, kept telling them not to make the book “too shrubby” (keep subplots, twists and turns, and intrigue to a minimum). Ed Greenwood said this at Gencon, and Mister Archer, standing right beside him, confirmed it. Archer also said he “made certain” it didn’t turn into an Elaith book or a Mirt book or a Piergeiron book, but concentrated primarily on new characters.
Both Ed and Elaine (and Mister Archer, too) have spoken or posted about how much the book got rewritten, over and over again, to meld it into a unified literary style. Apparently this took either darn near a year or over a year.
And yet you claim you can tell whenever you’re reading the words of one author or the other. I seriously doubt it.
I devoured the book (and found it good, solid fun, BTW, by no means a fantasy classic but one of the best Realms novels yet written), and on six occasions I was certain I was reading “Ed being arch” humour or satire, and four occasions when I *guessed* I was reading paragraphs that might be “pretty much unaltered Elaine.” (And my guesses were “helped” by entirely unsupported assumptions on my part as to who probably wrote which scenes the very first time around.)
So I asked Ed how much of the verbiage survived untouched from beginning to end, and he told me: not a single sentence.
When that final trimming of approx 14,000 words happened, he went through *everything,* chopping entire scenes and “slimming” almost every sentence. Not just to shorten it, but to make it sound like the work of one writer, because that’s what Archer told him to do.
Ed is a colleague of mine, and I have no reason to believe he would lie to me about this. Moreover, why in the world would Archer (who confirmed this at Gencon) deceive anyone about it?
I asked Ed if this shortened by him version went to print verbatim, and he replied that it had been edited by WotC (which is normal and to be expected). They wanted the “one voice” result, so presumably editors who are personally familiar with Ed and Elaine and their writings went to work to smooth out the very differences you are sure you can spot.
So unless you’re the world’s greatest editor or a mind reader who can operate into the past, I just can’t believe you can tell so well who wrote what scene, or make any judgements about quality or anything else on that basis.
Sure, if you wanted a “history of Waterdeep” book, this ain’t it.
If you wanted the next episode in the unfolding careers of Arilyn and Danilo (as I’m sure a lot of us do), it’s not here.
If you were looking for a new Elaith book (I’d love *that,* too), City of Splendors doesn’t deliver.
But you weren’t *promised* any of these things.
If you read this thread from the beginning, both of the authors were careful to let you know, as directly as they were allowed to, not to expect any of those three stories.
Even if Ed or Elaine or WotC tried to turn all of their novels into a “let’s write exactly what readers ask us for,” they couldn’t - - because what you want may not be what I want, and even if every single Realms fan wanted to see exactly the same thing (just to invent an entirely fanciful plot: “Elaith and Danilo compete for the hand of Arilyn, and in the end, after the two males almost kill each other any number of times, all three characters decide to form a three-way marriage”), and an author delivered that story, many fans would cavil about details of the narrative, or castigate it for being . . . predictable. Just what we thought they’d write.
I’m not trying to carve you up here. I was just thunderstruck when I read your post. As I said, I can identify what I *think* are some Ed one-liners, but after hearing Ed and Elaine together on panels at Gencon down the years, I’m not sure. She utters some rather blue one-liners from time to time, too.
Ed? Elaine? THO? Anyone?
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 01:47:55
|
| Let's keep it civil, folks. I don't want to see this thread get any more heated than it already is. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 02:31:02
|
I haven't read the novel itself, so I'm not going to take any stance 'bout its contents. But...
Uh, Sage of Stars, do you mean no reader is allowed to make any negative comment because they'll "fall into the trap" of "this book isn't what I expected"? How do you differentiate that from "this book doesn't fit my tastes", which after all is only a hair's breadth away? Is absolutely nobody is qualified to "judge" books unless they are professional editor, author, or a literary giant? What literary yardstick, exactly, are we unwashed, uncultured hoi polloi supposed to use when reviewing books when personal expectations and tastes apparently invalidate everything we say?
quote:
So unless you’re the world’s greatest editor or a mind reader who can operate into the past, I just can’t believe you can tell so well who wrote what scene, or make any judgements about quality or anything else on that basis.
He said he thinks he can tell, not that he knows. He also said he hopes to see books focused on Elaith or the Blackstaff in the future, not that he was disappointed that this book isn't it.
People like and dislike books. People make their opinions public. I don't really see what's to be "thunderstruck" about. Then again, I don't write for a living or anything, so I'm sure I lack the qualifications requred to be thunderstruck. Or something. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 17 Oct 2005 02:32:00 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 02:37:27
|
| Knock it off guys! We already closed one thread because of this, let's not repeat this! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 02:39:29
|
| I'd prefer to see any such debate taken to PM. I don't want another thread to be closed because a discussion grew too heated. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 06:55:26
|
Try as they might, I don't think anyone can edit out someone's voice. Especially when it is one of their characters. Part of the fun of reading this book was trying to identify who wrote what. Consciouslly or not, I think we all did it. For all I know Ed wrote every Elaith passage, while Elaine did Ed's characters. This was a very entertaining book, with many of our favorites. However, I think it may have suffered from trying to do too much and not expanding on certain areas, such as the relationship between the ill-fated lovers, or Elaith's bid to control Waterdeep.
One of my favorites, but not the best. I'm making it my pick for work (bookstore) so it will have a nice featured spot where everyone will see it. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 13:27:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
I'm making it my pick for work (bookstore) so it will have a nice featured spot where everyone will see it.
Thank you, Hammer. Your check's in the mail. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Uh, Sage of Stars, do you mean no reader is allowed to make any negative comment because they'll "fall into the trap" of "this book isn't what I expected"? How do you differentiate that from "this book doesn't fit my tastes", which after all is only a hair's breadth away?
Winterfox, I think I know exactly what Sage of Star means, and it's NOT an implication that the Great Unwashed shouldn't give negative opinions of any sort. The thing is, a lot of reviews of shared-world books are based on how closely they did or didn't follow the reader's desired story path. I've seen Star Wars books given a one-star review because "they didn't have enough about Han and Leia in them," or because a character formed a romance with the "wrong" character. Or Forgotten Realms books reviewed harshly simply because they didn't tell a story about dwarves, and dammit, I WANT MORE BOOKS ABOUT DWARVES! This sort of thing is really quite different from "this book doesn't fit my tastes," because it judges a book on an irrelevant, and untimately unfair, set of criteria. I heard a bit of frustration--personal experience, perhaps?--in Sage of Star's response, (if so, I feel your pain...) and yes, it CAN be very frustrating to have a book judged on whether or not the plot twists followed a reader's desired (or "expected") path, rather than on the story itself. I did NOT, however, perceive that this sort of thinking formed the basis for RivercOil's review. He expressed a preference for a more sweeping historical treatment, yes, but he also gave very specific examples of things that didn't work for him that were specific to the plot and characterizations of the actual book, not some hypothetical book that "should have been." And that's fine. I for one have no problems with this.
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
As I said, I can identify what I *think* are some Ed one-liners, but after hearing Ed and Elaine together on panels at Gencon down the years, I’m not sure. She utters some rather blue one-liners from time to time, too.
This, sir, is a vile canard. I am the epitomy of ladylike restraint.
::LIGHTING BOLT::
Ouch. Mind if I smoke?
The book was revised so many times I truly can't remember who originally wrote some scenes. I think there ARE passages and one-liners that are identifiable as one writer or the other, but I also think readers might be surprised on the origin of a few of those.
|
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 17 Oct 2005 13:39:15 |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 15:45:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Winterfox, I think I know exactly what Sage of Star means, and it's NOT an implication that the Great Unwashed shouldn't give negative opinions of any sort. The thing is, a lot of reviews of shared-world books are based on how closely they did or didn't follow the reader's desired story path. I've seen Star Wars books given a one-star review because "they didn't have enough about Han and Leia in them," or because a character formed a romance with the "wrong" character. Or Forgotten Realms books reviewed harshly simply because they didn't tell a story about dwarves, and dammit, I WANT MORE BOOKS ABOUT DWARVES!
Expressed in these terms, I think it's much clearer, and yes, I can see why it'd be frustrating for the authors. (Expecting, say, Evermeet to be about gnomes would be... well. No.)
quote:
I did NOT, however, perceive that this sort of thinking formed the basis for RivercOil's review. He expressed a preference for a more sweeping historical treatment, yes, but he also gave very specific examples of things that didn't work for him that were specific to the plot and characterizations of the actual book, not some hypothetical book that "should have been." And that's fine. I for one have no problems with this.
That's why I thought Sage of Stars blurred a reader's "this doesn't suit my tastes" (preference) with a reader's expectations. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 21:48:37
|
I don't know, the lines that I thought most defined rivercOil's review were these...
quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
i can't remember another FR book that has taken me longer to read than CoS. it just didn't grab me... the book just didn't do it for me.
And I've felt the same way about certain stories, too. *shrug* Some stories just don't "do it" for me, either. I personally took the sentiment about CoS "not being what I wanted it to be" to be about taste, but who knows? The title *does* say "A Waterdeep Novel", not "The Waterdeep Novel", so I didn't expect it to be about the history of Waterdeep (nor is that what I necessarily wanted!), nor did I expect to see characters like Mirt, Khelben, Elaith, and other luminaries to be in more than cameo parts at best. Elaith actually surprised me, because his role was bigger than I expected it to be, but that said I didn't feel like he took over the book or anything.
I liked the new characters, and I enjoyed the way they were given their own chances to shine.
As for being able to tell which author wrote what, I have to admit that it turned out to be a much harder task than I thought it would be. Many lines certainly seemed like "trademark Ed Greenwood humor", for example, but for the most part I was able to read and enjoy the book as a cohesive whole without being distracted by contrasting styles. And I'm glad for that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Oct 2005 21:49:32 |
|
|
|
hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 05:07:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
I'm making it my pick for work (bookstore) so it will have a nice featured spot where everyone will see it.
Thank you, Hammer. Your check's in the mail. ;)
quote:
Or Forgotten Realms books reviewed harshly simply because they didn't tell a story about dwarves, and dammit, I WANT MORE BOOKS ABOUT DWARVES!
This is now how I will judge every book about the Forgotten Realms. Definately not enough out there about dwarves. dammit, I WANT MORE BOOKS ABOUT DWARVES, also! 
The only thing I expected was to be entertained, as are my expectations with almost anything I read (except these darned history books. There should be a limit on footnotes. ). |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2005 : 05:52:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
This is now how I will judge every book about the Forgotten Realms. Definately not enough out there about dwarves. dammit, I WANT MORE BOOKS ABOUT DWARVES, also!
Those guys do seem to get overlooked a lot. 
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
The only thing I expected was to be entertained, as are my expectations with almost anything I read (except these darned history books. There should be a limit on footnotes.).
That was my only expectation, too: to be entertained. I try not to go into a book with any expectations more than that...
But about footnotes... I take it you've not read Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 21:42:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
This is now how I will judge every book about the Forgotten Realms. Definately not enough out there about dwarves. dammit, I WANT MORE BOOKS ABOUT DWARVES, also!
Those guys do seem to get overlooked a lot.
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
The only thing I expected was to be entertained, as are my expectations with almost anything I read (except these darned history books. There should be a limit on footnotes.).
That was my only expectation, too: to be entertained. I try not to go into a book with any expectations more than that...
But about footnotes... I take it you've not read Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell?
On my list, but not yet.
I have read House of Leaves. Almost as bad as anything I've read. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 01:33:35
|
I finished City of Splendors last night and I have mixed feeling about the novel.
While the story was descent enough, it was not the 'epic' adventure I've come to except from a Greenwood or Cunningham novel.
Highpoints:
* Starting the novel with the sahuagin attack was awesome
* I enjoyed the 'New Day/Unmask the masked lords' plot thread but... (see lowpoints)
* Seeing the world from the point of view of the merchant class of Waterdeep was a refreshing change from countless novels focusing on nobles, wizards, and other highborn.
Lowpoints:
* The Church of the Amalgamation did nothing for me. It made the novel feel not very 'Realmsy'.
* I wasn't particularly drawn to any of the nobles in the novel. I enjoyed reading more about Lark and the Dyre daughters.
* the New Day failed, and the masked lords still rule Waterdeep (ie, nothing changed)
The novel was a good fit for The Cities series, but imho didn't deserve hardcover treatment. Years from now this novel will not rate well against Evermeet, Cormyr, or the other extremely popular novels from these two authors. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 02:06:11
|
My feelings are the same as you, the "Church of the Amalgamation" non-FR feel is the #1 lowpoint for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I finished City of Splendors last night and I have mixed feeling about the novel.
While the story was descent enough, it was not the 'epic' adventure I've come to except from a Greenwood or Cunningham novel.
Highpoints:
* Starting the novel with the sahuagin attack was awesome
* I enjoyed the 'New Day/Unmask the masked lords' plot thread but... (see lowpoints)
* Seeing the world from the point of view of the merchant class of Waterdeep was a refreshing change from countless novels focusing on nobles, wizards, and other highborn.
Lowpoints:
* The Church of the Amalgamation did nothing for me. It made the novel feel not very 'Realmsy'.
* I wasn't particularly drawn to any of the nobles in the novel. I enjoyed reading more about Lark and the Dyre daughters.
* the New Day failed, and the masked lords still rule Waterdeep (ie, nothing changed)
The novel was a good fit for The Cities series, but imho didn't deserve hardcover treatment. Years from now this novel will not rate well against Evermeet, Cormyr, or the other extremely popular novels from these two authors.
|
Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Oct 2005 02:06:46 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 03:07:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Years from now this novel will not rate well against Evermeet, Cormyr, or the other extremely popular novels from these two authors.
I think that depends on the reader... I liked it more than some of Elaine's books, and I liked it a lot more than any of Ed's novels (with the exceptions of Cormyr and Elminster's Daughter). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 21:24:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
* Seeing the world from the point of view of the merchant class of Waterdeep was a refreshing change from countless novels focusing on nobles, wizards, and other highborn.
Yes! Most people in the Realms are commoners, but most novels tend to focus on highborn people living in villas and castles.
And no, I don't believe that nobles are inherently more interesting to read about. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 23:12:21
|
I recently finished the novel, and I thought it was wonderful. Having Greenwood and Cunningham together was a real treat.
I loved the Gemcloaks. I saw them as the "young rock stars" of Waterdeep, which just tickled me. I also saw each of them as their own person, not just six of the same brash young noble "pups" with different color cloaks. They were great.
I also appreciated the three women of the story, Naoni, Faendra, and Lark. Overall, I thought that the main characters really showcased the city life of Waterdeep beautifully. I really felt like I was in the city catching wind of the New Day and the whole bit.
Seeing Mirt, Piergeiron, Elaith, and those brief glimpses of Khelben and Laeral was delightful. I was actually glad to see that Elminster and Danillo didn't show up. I was waiting for them to appear, but when that didn't happen, it made the book seem more believable for some reason. There are times when I think an author includes a character simply because it's his/her "calling card" character, and I didn't feel like that was happening here.
Probably what I liked the most was the tour of Waterdeep. There's a touch of most of the wards in the book, and the sights, smells, and sounds really come out in the book. One really gets immersed in Waterdeep here, and for a DM, that's priceless. I plan on running the Age of Worms campaign starting soon, and that will eventually take us to Waterdeep. You can bet I'll be drawing upon my experiences in City of Slendors when we're exploring Waterdeep at the gaming table.
The Amalgamation was a bit odd. I was hoping for a clue as to just which god Golskyn prayed to (if any at all). Mrelder's relationship with his father was interesting. I also liked the influence Piergeiron had on Mrelder throughout the book, as if that one encounter during the sahaugin attack stayed with the sorcerer through the years.
All in all, I loved the novel. I really feel like City of Splendors introduces several characters that deserve a spot in future projects.
|
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 30 Oct 2005 23:17:22 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
City of Splendors: A Novel of Waterdeep
