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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 04:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Well I can see the good points and the bad points about the change. To me one of the bad points is that Proxies can't enter Sigil now since they have a divine rank.... Kind of screws up lore since the deities sent Proxies to Sigil to take care of thier problems, requests, etc.....
For those who don't know Planescape lore, the Lady of Pain doesn't usually allow any deity, or in 3e a being with a divine rank, into Sigil. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.
That's true. I'd forgotten about that. Still, there are other ways for deities to "handle" any problems they may have which necessitates a journey to Sigil. These powers have powerful high priests, and uniquely chosen (not to be confused with FR "Chosen") followers, even if they are not proxies. There will always be one member of a deity's clergy that would be willing to undertake any task for his/her god.
Oh, and about those exceptions... You should probably also add that they were almost always "fatal" . . . 
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 08:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
That's true. I'd forgotten about that. Still, there are other ways for deities to "handle" any problems they may have which necessitates a journey to Sigil. These powers have powerful high priests, and uniquely chosen (not to be confused with FR "Chosen") followers, even if they are not proxies. There will always be one member of a deity's clergy that would be willing to undertake any task for his/her god.
Oh, and about those exceptions... You should probably also add that they were almost always "fatal" . . .
Oh, no doubt they do, but I guess I still prefer proxies that don't have a divine rank. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 09:37:39
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Perhaps the upcoming Planar Handbook will address this proxy issue...
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 00:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Well I can see the good points and the bad points about the change. To me one of the bad points is that Proxies can't enter Sigil now since they have a divine rank.... Kind of screws up lore since the deities sent Proxies to Sigil to take care of thier problems, requests, etc.....
For those who don't know Planescape lore, the Lady of Pain doesn't usually allow any deity, or in 3e a being with a divine rank, into Sigil. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.
Good point - (One of) Waukeen's proxies lived in Sigil in For Duty and Deity. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 01:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Good point - (One of) Waukeen's proxies lived in Sigil in For Duty and Deity.
Yup Yup. Also now that I ponder this a little more, it also screws with those deities who have low divine ranks but who had more then one proxy because the deity is then draining away its power making proxies... I guess I just prefer proxies as deity servants that can be created without divine ranks, which is why I still use the old rules in my game. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 30 Jun 2004 01:26:57 |
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Buzzcutter
Acolyte
16 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 04:28:25
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Ok, so i think that i've established that chosen, proxies, seraphs and the like are all different jobs and such, and not just different words and titles for the same thing. but being completely ignorant of any gaming rules, histories and protocals, i have a few questions:
1. What in the blue blazes is "Sigil"?
2. So is it better to be a proxie or a chosen? and what about seraphs?
3. Divine Rank - this is a divine order\race of semi-devine beings, or simply chain-of-command of a given deity?
thanx in advance! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 04:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Buzzcutter
1. What in the blue blazes is "Sigil"?
2. So is it better to be a proxie or a chosen? and what about seraphs?
3. Divine Rank - this is a divine order\race of semi-devine beings, or simply chain-of-command of a given deity?
thanx in advance!
1) Sigil is a city that resides at the top of the Spire in the Outlands if you are using the core cosmology. However, it also exists at the same time as a seperate plane in FR's Tree, and there is a portal to it in one of the adventures in the back of Faiths & Pantheons. It is "ruled" over by the Lady of Pain, what or who she/he/it is no one knows.
From my FAQ on the WOTC FR boards:
In the Great Wheel/Ring it floats atop the spire in the Outlands. In the FR planes it is it's own separate plane like Cynosure. However, according to Rich Sigil also exists at the same time in both the FR tree and in the Wheel/Ring so technically you can explore the planes of the Wheel/Ring by heading to Sigil since it exists in all places since it is a planar crossroads.
It's a huge city and if you picture a wagon wheel turned on its side or the inside of a tire, the buildings are built on the inside part of the wheel or tire. The only way to get into it is by a portal and the Lady controls all portals into and out of it and if you anger her she can shut every one of them down and basically kill off every one inside that needs food, air, and water to survive because air comes in from the Elemental Plane of Air mostly, and food and water is shipped in from the outer planes, etc. Some water also comes from the Elemental Plane of Water as well.
The Lady of Pain (this is not the same person as Loviatar) "rules" over it and she has the power to lock all deities (yes even AO) out of it. If you anger her, harm her city, or her dabus, she has the power to flay the skin off your bones with her shadow or maze you, which sends you to the Ethereal plane in a specially built maze she constructs just for you. She usually doesn't speak either, and if she does it's through her dabus's, which are a race that build and repair Sigil and they talk in picture symbol's called rebus.
The old Planescape material has the most info about Sigil, the Lady, and what ever else you need to know about that city.
2) Proxies are a Planescape term for servants of deities. They are higher then priests, usually. The proxy template can be found, for 3e, in Deities & Demigods, or the Manual of the Planes.
Chosen are FR specific for servants of the deities as well, but they are not the same as Proxies. Seraphs, according to 3e FR material, are the same as Chosen and it is only a title, since Umberlee's and Cyric's Chosens are called Seraphs.
3) Divine Rank is a 3e invention that helps classify the deities power. In 2e all we has was deities that were classified as demi, lesser, intermediate, and greater powers. But 3e further changed that by adding Divine Ranks to the demi, lesser, intermediate, and greater deities. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 30 Jun 2004 05:06:50 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 18:13:30
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| Hmm... I was re-reading Twilight Falling in the Erevis Cale trilogy and I found that Sepharis, the old loremaster in the book was referred to as a "Chosen of Oghma". Sadly, he got his throat ripped out... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 18:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hmm... I was re-reading Twilight Falling in the Erevis Cale trilogy and I found that Sepharis, the old loremaster in the book was referred to as a "Chosen of Oghma". Sadly, he got his throat ripped out...
I know, that end for the character was a pity as I found him quite entertaining to read about. |
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Buzzcutter
Acolyte
16 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 22:36:44
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Wow, Kuji - your like a machine answering these questions!
thanx bro! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 22:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Buzzcutter
Wow, Kuji - your like a machine answering these questions!
thanx bro!
Hhaha. Well that's cause I'm a d&d junkie. Which is why I have over 5000 posts on the WOTC boards. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 05:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
The old Planescape material has the most info about Sigil, the Lady, and what ever else you need to know about that city.
You could do that. Also, I suggest visiting the site referenced in my signature. There's significant discussion on all aspects of Planescape located there, as well as a freely downloadable 70+ page sourcebook on Sigil post-Faction War.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Chosen of the Gods
