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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 17:20:56
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This is new thread from the recent thread on Chosen
I know I am in the minority here...but I dislike only Mystra having Chosen. I much preferred the realms back in 1E long before there were Chosen, but I accept the existence of all of them now as that is how the canon reads....
I am in the school of thought that feels Mystra's Chosen cause a lopsided balance in the scope of things. I know the Shadow weave has been brought about to counter balance that issue...but like a mouthwash meant to clean, somehow it is all leaving behind a slightly bad taste in my mouth. Now more than ever since I have so many unanswered questions in this area.
I am only in the 2nd book of the Return of the Archwizards just now, but the question is arising;
Since Mystra has never openly supported evil mages as Chosen (i.e Zhents, Red Wizards, etc) and these same groups are constantly being thwarted by her Chosen. Will these groups begin to turn to Shadow Weave magic more and more? (I dont see why evil mages would not be crossing over in droves.) And will this result in a loss of power for Mystra as she loses followers (evil casters) to Shar's weave? Why would mages like Manshoon and others of great spellpower and willpower continue to draw from Mystra's weave knowing the Chosen of Mystra will continue to thwart them?
Maybe Mystra sees all of the mages (good and evil) as children playing with toys (magic) yet when she continually shows favortism to particular children of the group (i.e her Chosen) and those children are always winning the games...well I think there would be some real child parent conflicts and jealousy going on which would eventually lead to those unfavored children running away as it were.
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 17:59:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Maybe Mystra sees all of the mages (good and evil) as children playing with toys (magic)
For what it's worth, the Goddess makes a brief appearance in Elminster's Daughter. Without giving away any spoilers, let's just say the scene shows that even deities can be filled with doubt and insecurity. I found that aspect very interesting to read. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 18:24:14
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| I am looking forward to picking that up when I travel back to the states this summer. I have heard good things about the work. I was also pleased with Elminster in Hell and Mystra(Midnight's) choice to distance herself as a lover from the old sage and her other chosen. |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:20:19
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As far as I know, Mystra's Chosen spend very little time actually working against the Zhentarim/Red Wizards etc. because it doesn't benefit them, or Mystra. They work against threats to Faerūn - and against Mystra - which is why they allied against the phaerimm/Shade. Khelben actually works with evil organisations if it prevents loss of lives, as we have seen. I think it was Ed who brought up the "better the evil you know" phrase.
The Simbul, Alustriel and Storm are the exceptions because the Red Wizards and Zhentarim are actual threats to their areas of rule - and the people they love. But the Simbul never invades Thay (let's face it - apart from a particularly difficult opponent in Szass Tam, if she did, she would destroy them), and Alustriel never marches into Darkhold to kill Manshoon.
I think Mystra would quite favour a magical entrepreneur such as Manshoon. She doesn't have to like him (and I'm sure she doesn't) but that doesn't mean she wants him dead. So he won't turn to the Shadow Weave - with its restrictions and its ties to Shar - because Manshoon doesn't want to owe anyone any allegiance (even Fzoul, even Mystra, especially Shar). Mystra offers the widest array of opportunities, and as a truly evil character, Manshoon will take whatever opportunities arise to increase his own/the Zhentarim's power. Ditto with Szass Tam, though his necromantic specialisation might make him somewhat more likely that Manshoon to turn to Shar.
I think the reason mages arn't flocking to Sgar are the obevementioned reasons - the Shadow Weave restricts a wizard, whereas the Weave gives them everything. Plus Mystra is not likely to destroy your soul for your choice, whereas all not-so-depraved/insane denizens of the Realms are likely to fear Shar, and the consequences of tying oneself to her, whatever their alignment. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 26 Jun 2004 19:22:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 01:10:59
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Sure, some of Mystra's Chosen spend time thwarting the actions of various evil mages -- but look at why they do so.
A mage can be evil all day long. So long as he does not threaten or hamper the use of magic by others, then Mystra is happy. Look at Larloch and Halaster -- both are quite evil, but they quietly do their own thing. They may not be Chosen, but they do have a sort of official nod from Mystra, so her Chosen leave them alone.
Mystra doesn't even have a problem with the Red Wizards, as a whole -- only those who misuse magic.
Remember, one of the main goals of the Lady of Mysteries is to encourage the use of magic. It's an element not often focused on, but one thing her Chosen do is, in various ways, increase the amount of magic that's out there to use. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 03:21:14
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Well the main reason that evil spellcasters are not flocking to the Shadow Weave is the price. It offers a boost in power in exchange for a couple of weaknesses. They gain power in Nec. Compulsion and Illusion, but weakness in most Evocation and Transmutation spells.
Plus there is the entry cost.
Either a -3 Wis drain or servitude to Shar. And with Shar their is two major bad points. Shar wants the end of the World. Which includes most evil wizards. Two, you can not advance yourself unless it is for the church.
This last part of Shar's Docture and the Wis drain would make Manshoon and Szass Tam avoid the Shadow Weave. They want power for themselves.
It's a quick power boost for limited ability. You might not get a power up with the regular weave, but you have more range. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Urlithani
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 03:30:06
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I do not think many people will run to the Shadow Weave.
Mystra will let you play and experiment with magic all day long as long as you don't destroy lots of magic, or run around creating dead and wild magic zones.
Shar, on the other hand, will tempt you with the Shadow Weave, like a carrot before a hitched horse. She will let you use it and toy with it until you become start to grow dependant on it, and then you belong to her because you can't go back to the Weave once you use the Shadow Weave.
I'd say that if there was one thing evil despises, it's being controlled rather than being in control. Most self-centered wicked beings would rather take their chances with Mystra than stand a good chance of being a lap dog to Shar.
As for Chosen, other deities have them too, but Mystra being in the forefront was created by a few good reasons. Once it became a mildly popular concept, novels and info started being written, and it snowballed from there.
When it comes to Mystra and her Chosen, people either love them, hate them, or want nothing to do with them simply due to the sheer amount of source info and attention they receive. I'm indifferent to them, and I merely make it a point to not have them in any campaign of mine, simply to show a point how magnificent the other people and parts of the realms are. Other gods have chosen, and then others don't have any simply because it leaves room for DM's.
Consider it a dream of mine writing a novel focusing on Selūne and a few of her key worshippers; and then watch how many more Selūne fanbois you'll see running around after that! 
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Biggest. Selƻne. Fanboy. Ever! :)
"The only reward of Virtue is Virtue." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The time is always right to do what is right. "
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 03:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Urlithani
When it comes to Mystra and her Chosen, people either love them, hate them, or want nothing to do with them simply due to the sheer amount of source info and attention they receive. I'm indifferent to them, and I merely make it a point to not have them in any campaign of mine, simply to show a point how magnificent the other people and parts of the realms are. Other gods have chosen, and then others don't have any simply because it leaves room for DM's.
Consider it a dream of mine writing a novel focusing on Selūne and a few of her key worshippers; and then watch how many more Selūne fanbois you'll see running around after that!
I'll concur with you on the first point, definitely. Some hate the Chosen -- I've even seen them called "Greenwood's sacred cows." I used to love them, but I have since cooled on them -- in large part, because I'm not into the power-side of characters the way I once was. I'm now indifferent to them, for the most part. There's just other characters that interest me more.
I have created my own Chosen of Mystra, but I'm still figuring out exactly what to do with him. And since I recently changed large chunks of his background, it'll be a while before I'm done with him. I have no plans for using him or any other Chosen of Mystra in a campaign, it's just something I feel like doing (much like my Lords of Waterdeep project).
As for your Selūne novel, I don't think that would create a legion of Selūne fans. After all, Finder Wyvernspur, as a god, has appeared in two novels, and I don't see legions of fans for him... He's one of my personal faves, as is Selūne, but I've not seen his air time have any effect on his popularity.
And Selūne did have many, many appearances in the old Advanced Dungeons & Dragons comic, and that didn't seem to do much for her popularity. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 04:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Urlithani
Consider it a dream of mine writing a novel focusing on Selūne and a few of her key worshippers; and then watch how many more Selūne fanbois you'll see running around after that!
Well, if I recall correctly, Dave Gross' upcoming novel in the Priest series will include a character that is a Priestess of Selune. I wonder if that will start the fanboi craze?  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 04:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Urlithani
When it comes to Mystra and her Chosen, people either love them, hate them, or want nothing to do with them simply due to the sheer amount of source info and attention they receive.
I like them in small doses. For example, some of Mystra's chosen have supporting roles in Elminster's Daughter. However, the majority of the novel is not devoted to any single one of them. The only exception to my rule of small doses is Qilue. I really would love to read more about her and see her prominently featured in a novel. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 04:14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Selūne did have many, many appearances in the old Advanced Dungeons & Dragons comic, and that didn't seem to do much for her popularity.
Oh, that's because comics aren't canon. Come on WR, I thought you knew that! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 04:29:31
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Oh, that's because comics aren't canon. Come on WR, I thought you knew that!
If you are being serious then I have to disagree, but if you are not then you need a smilie! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 05:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Selūne did have many, many appearances in the old Advanced Dungeons & Dragons comic, and that didn't seem to do much for her popularity.
Oh, that's because comics aren't canon. Come on WR, I thought you knew that!
We seriously need to find a sarcastic smilie for you! 
To others who are not aware: Yes, the comics are canon. Events and characters from the comics have appeared in a variety of canon sources, making the comics canon.
All the main characters from the AD&D comic and the Forgotten Realms comic have been statted out in Dragon magazine.
Both comics included the Time of Troubles, and the events that happened in those comics -- Shar battling Selūne in Waterdeep and Labelas Enoreth battling Clangeddin Silverbeard -- are listed on both the WotC website and in the 2E deity books.
Three of the four characters from AD&D can be found in the Lands of Intrigue boxed set. The fourth is listed in Cloak & Dagger and in Powers & Pantheons.
One of the characters from the FR comic is mentioned in Demihuman Deities, and I believe in some Planescape stuff. Another of those characters is half-brother to the one that appeared in Cloak & Dagger and in Powers & Pantheons.
At least two minor characters from the AD&D comic have also been in FR anthologies.
And a character from the old Spelljammer comic also appeared in two novels as a main character. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 05:35:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To others who are not aware: Yes, the comics are canon. Events and characters from the comics have appeared in a variety of canon sources, making the comics canon.
All the main characters from the AD&D comic and the Forgotten Realms comic have been statted out in Dragon magazine.
Is Dragon Magazine canon?  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 05:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To others who are not aware: Yes, the comics are canon. Events and characters from the comics have appeared in a variety of canon sources, making the comics canon.
All the main characters from the AD&D comic and the Forgotten Realms comic have been statted out in Dragon magazine.
Is Dragon Magazine canon?
Let's not open that can of worms again... Suffice it to say that I've seen many indications for yes, and none for no.
Besides, most of those characters appeared in some other canon source, so it's all good.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic of discussion... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jun 2004 05:56:46 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 06:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Let's not open that can of worms again... Suffice it to say that I've seen many indications for yes, and none for no.
Quite a reply you had there to show the comics are canon. It's almost as if you asked me to make that statement just so you could show off your FR knowledge. But, nah, I would never be part of such a conspiracy.
quote:
And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic of discussion...
And speaking of the Shadow Weave, it's only been with Paul Kemp's last novel, Dawn of Night that I've actually begun to find this source of magic interesting. Apologies to all who liked The Return of the Archwizards series, but I found it very disappointing. Moreover, I was not at all interested in the shadow magic shown in those novels and felt it was just another "WOTC needs to hype something because a new edition has come out" plot element. Thus, I'm quite glad to have picked up Paul Kemp's series and been shown how interesting shadow magic can be.
Moreover, with the emphasis on shadow magic, I'm really looking forward to seeing more of a focus on the Selune/Shar match up. I mean you are talking about two deities that have gone at it since the creation of the world. Something like that almost sounds like it's featuring characters that have appeared in a comic book. Moreover, I'm thinking a time out just ain't going to cool down this situation.
Dave Gross' upcoming novel, Mistress of the Night appears to be set to show some of the conflict from these two deities' followers. I've enjoyed this author's writings in the past and look forward to seeing what he has to offer. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 17:05:04
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Thanks for the insights everyone.
I have finished reading Realms of Shadow and find that I am once again stumped about the Weave (and Shadow Weave).
The story The Fallen Lands mentions that clerical magic does not come from the weave (the line is on page 238 near the top) like wizardly magic. This seems to conflict with what is written in Magic of Faerun, where it says that Mystra can block (i.e. restrict) the magic of worshipers (I would assume this means clerics) of other deities.
So ...which is it? I am guessing Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers are also pulling from the weave if Mystra can block them. (Am I mistaken in this or misreading something somewhere?)_
Ok, but if that is the case then isn't it likely for Shar to force all of her Clergy from here on out to pull from the Shadow Weave so they would not be subservient to Mystra? And is she tied to the Shadow Weave as Mystra is tied to the weave? Meaning that the more followers use her shadow magic the more she herself thrives, so isnt it in her best interest to attract more users? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 18:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Thanks for the insights everyone.
I have finished reading Realms of Shadow and find that I am once again stumped about the Weave (and Shadow Weave).
Many of the stories in that anthology left me stumped or not as interested as I thought I would be about them. I don't know if it was just a slight dissatisfaction (at that time) with the RotA trilogy or the setting in which I read the book (a hospital waiting room). Perhaps one day, I'll go back and give the anthology another try. However, many of the people/events in the whole series appear to have left the stage. If you know what I mean. |
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Migrations to the Shadow Weave
