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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 03:00:29
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Cross-posting from ENWorld...
Does anyone know whether there are any rules regarding what is considered Forgotten Realms canon and what is not?
Specifically, I'm wondering if the Scales of War adventure path is canon, or if there are clues in past products that might hint at an answer. Scales of War appeared in the online Dungeon magazine (issues #156-175) once the Paizo contract ended and ownership of the magazine went to Wizards of the Coast.
For comparison, in Dungeon #196 (Nov 2011) there is a Backdrop: Moonshae Isles article, and the information therein closely matches the Adventurer's League approved Moonshaes Regional Guide put out by Baldman Games in 2018. That's a pretty clear example of something from WotC's online Dungeon magazine being recognized as canonical in the Forgotten Realms.
The issue I'm wondering about with Scales of War is that while it starts in the independent setting of Elsir Vale (same pseudo-setting as Red Hand of Doom), it soon expands to planar locations that are part of the "Forgotten Realms verse" (e.g. Gloomwrought, Shra'kt'lor). Among these is Tu'narath which becomes occupied by Tiamat's forces. The adventure describes Vlaakith CLVII having been slain (presumably following up on events from The Lich Queen's Beloved in Dungeon #100), Tiamat breaking of the pact with the githyanki, and Gith's spirit possessing Vlaakith's successor. I am trying to ascertain if this Vlaakith CLVII and Gith are the same as in the "Forgotten Realms verse" or if they are strictly "Elsir Vale" versions.
EDIT: Obviously, the importance of canon at an individual table is up to each group to decide. I understand that for many groups it's not going to be important, and I also understand that many fans of FR dislike WotC's take on the setting. Not making any judgments about canonicity, just asking a question.
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Edited by - Quickleaf on 19 Mar 2020 03:01:07
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 03:13:58
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I believe everything published in Dungeon and Dragon magazines explicitly for the Realms is canon, but I see no reason to think Scales of War wasn't set in the Points of Light/Nentir Vale/Dawn War setting, rather than the Realms. Gloomwrought was very much considered part of that setting in the 4e era, and the Githyanki material all matches the info from that setting from Manual of the Planes and The Plane Above.
This thread also touches on your topic: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18075 |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 03:21:39
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keftiu is correct. All planar lore, unless specifically inserted into a dedicated FR product/article, can't be considered canon.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 03:36:50
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| There is a Scales of War adventure that specifically mentions the Nentir Vale, and other that specifically takes place in a Nerathi ruin, so definitely the Scales of War wasn't published to be Realmslore. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 04:13:38
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| While Scales of War might not directly pertain to the Realms, by precedent of Planescape connecting all the "core" D&D settings and the evidence of interconnectivity in subsequent editions (Taking the World Serpent Inn article in Dragon #351 and the section on Sigil in 4E's Dungeon Master's Guide 2 as examples), I don't see why in this case there'd be separate versions of planar characters in play. |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 22:35:29
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quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
While Scales of War might not directly pertain to the Realms, by precedent of Planescape connecting all the "core" D&D settings and the evidence of interconnectivity in subsequent editions (Taking the World Serpent Inn article in Dragon #351 and the section on Sigil in 4E's Dungeon Master's Guide 2 as examples), I don't see why in this case there'd be separate versions of planar characters in play.
Yeah, that's precisely why I had the question.
Also was wondering since Robert J. Schwalb wrote the adventure Tyranny of Souls (Dungeon #168, July 2009) where Gith possesses a githyanki successor to the Lich Queen. And Robert later was part of the 5e design team. |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 19:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I believe everything published in Dungeon and Dragon magazines explicitly for the Realms is canon, but I see no reason to think Scales of War wasn't set in the Points of Light/Nentir Vale/Dawn War setting, rather than the Realms. Gloomwrought was very much considered part of that setting in the 4e era, and the Githyanki material all matches the info from that setting from Manual of the Planes and The Plane Above.
This thread also touches on your topic: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18075
Thanks for the link.
My impression that it is the same Astral Plane for all campaign settings whether Oerth, Faerūn, or Elsir Vale came from the Sage Advice on Planes and Worlds 7/23/18: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&feature=youtu.be
So you don't have to watch the whole 45 minute video, Greg Tito opens with a question (paraphrasing): So is it the same Nine Hells for all of these worlds? How does it work?
12:30 Jeremy Crawford: The way we present the core books for D&D is totally Planescape. It's just core now... ...and one thing we talk about, not only in books people have now but in D&D books stretching back decades, is that people in different worlds can imagine these planar relationships in different ways and might even have different names for them.
17:30 Jeremy Crawford: Let's talk about the worlds within the Prime Material Plane. I often get asked are all the worlds in the same universe? The official answer is yes. We talk about that in the Player's Handbook, and also in the DMG chapter called Creating a Multiverse.
24:20 Jeremy Crawford: There was a period in D&D's life especially around 3rd edition where this idea of all of D&D's worlds being in one giant setting together started to go out of focus. So you started ending up with worlds that were shepherded and designed to be their own thing. Now they would still end up sharing alot of the same mythological touchstones. So most of them talking about the Nine Hells or Mount Celestia or Mount Celestia with a different name. So a lot of the planar infrastructure was still in place even when the worlds were treated as thought they had no relationship to one another. BUT again, it's important for people to remember for the background of D&D, the original assumption in 1st edition was that the worlds were all in a multiverse together. And that is also the assumption of 5th edition.
To me this sure sounds like attempting to unify the D&D multiverse.
I've Tweeted to Ed Greenwood & Robert Schwalb to see if either of them can illuminate me. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 20 Mar 2020 19:22:55 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 15:44:49
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Learned Scribe Quickleaf,
Great find first of all!
At this point with the CF that is lore/canon between the editions, I would just sort of throw a dart at it and go. If you're playing 5e, it's likely best to use what's printed (which is practically nothing) and just make it the more generic version of the Realms it has turned into.
If you go pre-Spellplague, you're just going to see such a huge difference.
Using the information from Learned Scribe keftiu and Master Krashos, you'll find more in pre-Spellplague, but it will conflict more as well with post-Spellplague. So, knowing what is canon is only going to be so helpful I think.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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5E Forgotten Realms canon question
