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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 22:49:01
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The most noteworthy event in recent orc history (and quite possibly all the history of that people) was the founding of a successful orc nation in the North, one with clear borders and law, with peaceful political relations and open trade with its neighbors. Obould I accomplished this with a lifetime of effort, and was rewarded for it with a peaceful death and an ascension to Gruumsh's right hand.
So why, then, is Gruumsh a Chaotic Evil deity?
Kingdom-building and diplomacy are hardly Chaotic actions, and very little about how the kingdom of Many-Arrows has conducted itself since has been all that Evil. I've seen arguments of varying merit that this is a deeply odd thing for orcs to do (which, for the record, I reject), but it's that such a thing clearly carries Gruumsh's blessing is where I'm a little lost. Should the orc god's alignment have been adjusted in the wake of all this? Should the divine Obould be at least Lawful Evil, if not full-blown Lawful Neutral?
If possible, I'd prefer to keep this thread away from discussion of how appropriate Obould's plotline or the existence of Many-Arrows are, and stick to those only of divine alignment here. Thank you!
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 23:10:19
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My orcs, as per 1E, have always been LE, "official stats" be damned.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 23:12:21
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Let me wade into this obliquely, because I'm not a big fan of certain decisions.
That said, in 1e and 2e orcs were LE. It was only changed in 3e to CE. Certain novel series were started in 1e. So, I'm perfectly fine with an author who continues telling his or her story, rather than react to an edition of the game that changed the alignment of a major race.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The most noteworthy event in recent orc history (and quite possibly all the history of that people) was the founding of a successful orc nation in the North, one with clear borders and law, with peaceful political relations and open trade with its neighbors. Obould I accomplished this with a lifetime of effort, and was rewarded for it with a peaceful death and an ascension to Gruumsh's right hand.
So why, then, is Gruumsh a Chaotic Evil deity?
Kingdom-building and diplomacy are hardly Chaotic actions, and very little about how the kingdom of Many-Arrows has conducted itself since has been all that Evil. I've seen arguments of varying merit that this is a deeply odd thing for orcs to do (which, for the record, I reject), but it's that such a thing clearly carries Gruumsh's blessing is where I'm a little lost. Should the orc god's alignment have been adjusted in the wake of all this? Should the divine Obould be at least Lawful Evil, if not full-blown Lawful Neutral?
If possible, I'd prefer to keep this thread away from discussion of how appropriate Obould's plotline or the existence of Many-Arrows are, and stick to those only of divine alignment here. Thank you!
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 23:24:10
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| I'm also of the camp that the orcs' shift from Lawful to Chaotic Evil was a bad decision, because if nothing else, it certainly made the aspects of their concept rooted in racism a lot worse by really leaning into them being "savages" rather than the much more grunt-ish people they were previously depicted as. Plus, even post-2e, the pantheon's central theme still reads a lot like military oppression, which seems very LE. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 23:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
I'm also of the camp that the orcs' shift from Lawful to Chaotic Evil was a bad decision, because if nothing else, it certainly made the aspects of their concept rooted in racism a lot worse by really leaning into them being "savages" rather than the much more grunt-ish people they were previously depicted as. Plus, even post-2e, the pantheon's central theme still reads a lot like military oppression, which seems very LE.
Thank you! Having an entire race of people it's pretty much always okay to murder is already bad enough, but painting them as inferior to the (overwhelmingly white) "civilized" folk around them in the North is just... |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 23:56:29
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| Perhaps a bit off-topic since he's not really considered part of the pantheon, but there technically is a nonevil (half-) orc deity, Nazarn. His half-orc nature might make for a bit of a mixed message (potentially suggesting that he's only not evil because he's not fully orcish), but he's an interesting case that I'd like to see make the jump into going multispheric and accessing Toril (like the hero-deity Zinzerena before him). |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 00:04:49
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| I would also add the orcs around old Mulhorand and Unther developed some impressive clerical powers. They even called their own avatars to fight the god-kings of the Mulan pantheons. Aside from law vs chaos debates for general orc alignments, the Orcgate Wars demonstrate orcs are not universally primitive and ignorant knuckle draggers. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 16 Mar 2020 00:05:19 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 00:07:39
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| A concept: the ascended Obould I as a Lawful Neutral deity? Obviously dear to the folk of Many-Arrows, but possibly also the orc populations living in Akanul and Thesk. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 00:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
A concept: the ascended Obould I as a Lawful Neutral deity? Obviously dear to the folk of Many-Arrows, but possibly also the orc populations living in Akanul and Thesk.
Lawful Neutral...yes.
Orcs of Thesk...absolutely.
Orcs of Akanul...I need to research. My brain is still locked on Akanul as a genasi territory. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 14:56:44
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| Yeah, you know it would be a good discussion to denote the societal/cultural differences between the various orcish "races and subraces" of the realms. Definitely in the lands of the unapproachable east, orcs seem to have a leaning more towards lawfulness. There's orcs in Thesk that are fairly civilized. There's the various subraces of orcs in Thay (gray orc descendants of those that came through in the orcgate wars, plus the bred races of red and black neo-orogs) who are seemingly very lawful. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 20:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
A concept: the ascended Obould I as a Lawful Neutral deity? Obviously dear to the folk of Many-Arrows, but possibly also the orc populations living in Akanul and Thesk.
Lawful Neutral...yes.
Orcs of Thesk...absolutely.
Orcs of Akanul...I need to research. My brain is still locked on Akanul as a genasi territory.
They actually predate the genasi, but wound up among the population as an accepted minority! No clue what their situation is in the 5e timeline, but they’re the main group after genasi themselves in Akanul. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 21:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Chaotic doesn't mean you don't make laws or follow rules.
Just like how Lawful Good tends to be portrayed as Lawful Stupid, I also disliked how Chaotic Evil is treated as Chaotic Stupid. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 21:44:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Chaotic doesn't mean you don't make laws or follow rules.
With Gruumsh, HE makes the rules and everyone under him has to follow under threat of violence.
Chaotic deities and races are also not necessarily beings of PURE chaos. They may enjoy chaotic ideals of living while understanding the need for structure in the forming of a society.
I agree. Take a look at Lolth the prime example for a chaotic evil godess. Still the drow cities that follow her have strict rules everyone follows. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 00:48:24
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My biggest problem with the whole Many-Arrows thing wasn't the alignment, it's the fact that Gruumsh has always been about conquering and taking from others. And sure, Many-Arrows was born in blood -- but then they stopped, and tried to get along with their neighbors, and more or less succeeded, for a century.
That seems to be in direct opposition to what Gruumsh wants. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 01:13:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My biggest problem with the whole Many-Arrows thing wasn't the alignment, it's the fact that Gruumsh has always been about conquering and taking from others. And sure, Many-Arrows was born in blood -- but then they stopped, and tried to get along with their neighbors, and more or less succeeded, for a century.
That seems to be in direct opposition to what Gruumsh wants.
I'd sooner see this discrepancy resolved with a change to Gruumsh, rather than just dismissing it as weird. Obould makes a great point: the old way earns them nothing but a lot of dead orcs. I'd hope his god feels similarly (and given that he elevated Obould, I assume he does...) |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 01:24:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My biggest problem with the whole Many-Arrows thing wasn't the alignment, it's the fact that Gruumsh has always been about conquering and taking from others. And sure, Many-Arrows was born in blood -- but then they stopped, and tried to get along with their neighbors, and more or less succeeded, for a century.
That seems to be in direct opposition to what Gruumsh wants.
Should we consider the Many-Arrows peace overtures as a Salvatore-inspired quirk? Yet another alternative would be many orcs - even if evil - may be sick and tired of Gruumsh. After all, plenty of evil drow would gladly have nothing to do with Lolth. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 17 Mar 2020 01:26:22 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 01:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
A concept: the ascended Obould I as a Lawful Neutral deity? Obviously dear to the folk of Many-Arrows, but possibly also the orc populations living in Akanul and Thesk.
Lawful Neutral...yes.
Orcs of Thesk...absolutely.
Orcs of Akanul...I need to research. My brain is still locked on Akanul as a genasi territory.
They actually predate the genasi, but wound up among the population as an accepted minority! No clue what their situation is in the 5e timeline, but they’re the main group after genasi themselves in Akanul.
All I can tell you about Akanul for 5e is it evidently survived two attacks from the Abolethic Sovereignty at great cost. (Flying krakens really creep me out.) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 02:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My biggest problem with the whole Many-Arrows thing wasn't the alignment, it's the fact that Gruumsh has always been about conquering and taking from others. And sure, Many-Arrows was born in blood -- but then they stopped, and tried to get along with their neighbors, and more or less succeeded, for a century.
That seems to be in direct opposition to what Gruumsh wants.
Should we consider the Many-Arrows peace overtures as a Salvatore-inspired quirk? Yet another alternative would be many orcs - even if evil - may be sick and tired of Gruumsh. After all, plenty of evil drow would gladly have nothing to do with Lolth.
Oh, I can readily buy orcs turning away from Gruumsh -- except it was his champion that brought this about. So a god of conquering and war was apparently supportive of a guy who said "Okay, we're neighbors, now, so let's all get along."
Yeah, this could be dismissed as just one author's work -- except it's canon and remains canon as written. So unless someone goes back and explains that Gruumsh favoring Obould was all some sort of hoax or test or something, it remains canon and not something we can just handwave away. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 02:30:51
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| Is "Gruumsh realizing his old path is basically suicidal for his followers" not on the table here? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 02:58:02
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| Gruumsh's list of accomplishments include thousands of years trying to kill Maglubiyet. If he doesn't care about sending his followers to die by the hundreds of thousands against another greater deity and pantheon head (Maglubiyet is chief of the goblin pantheon), one small change in small city on one of the many prime worlds he's worshiped on isn't going to make him budge. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 04:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Gruumsh's list of accomplishments include thousands of years trying to kill Maglubiyet. If he doesn't care about sending his followers to die by the hundreds of thousands against another greater deity and pantheon head (Maglubiyet is chief of the goblin pantheon), one small change in small city on one of the many prime worlds he's worshiped on isn't going to make him budge.
Sure, but that also contains the seed of the alternative in it; how much closer has he gotten to winning, in all those thousands of years of messy war? Being lord of a crazed horde has not earned him any lasting achievements in pursuit of his goal there.
I don't think the idea that Gruumsh could either be willing to change or at least be curious about experimenting with something else is all that crazy. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 04:49:31
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It's not really winning, per se. It's something of an experiment, and Faerun is hardly the only place. Greyhawk has the Pomarj, which was conquered the old-fashioned way by an orc chieftain and is showing no signs of decline.
Keep in mind that we're just seeing a city in its infancy. Gruumsh is patient enough to play the long game and watch how things unfold, especially given that he has to contend with Corellon's OP-plz-nerf magic elf civilization on that same world. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 08:03:01
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It's a bit of a double-edged sword for the orcs: the more you organise, the greater the threat you are. Existing as scattered, disparate tribal groupings robs them of power and the ability to dominate. Orcs "organising" up to the time of Obould involves gathering as a horde and then rolling forth in a tide of intended conquest, but realistically just ravaging an area until your threat mobilises enough enemies to band together to destroy you. If you organise and gather as orcs to gain power, you create a horde that will eventually unite your enemies against you and end up in defeat.
So Obould is smarter than your average orc. He's heard of and seen that cycle all his life. He also knows that it doesn't work in terms of creating and maintaining real power, geographically and economically. So he decides to go another way. A controlled gathering of the orcs. Direction and purpose other than simply "to conquer". Building a foundation so that an orcish kingdom rather than scattered tribes becomes the new norm and is recognised and tolerated. Bang. Instantly you have a basis to gather in numbers and project power territorially and economically without automatically whelming your foes to act in concert against you. The time to conquer will come, but not before the orcs have something to fall back on if that conquest fails.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 23:25:18
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To preface, I haven't read the material this is discussion, or the changes to the deities, and a lot is based on my own thoughts on the deities. I still hold to orcs being LE.
One issue IMO is the focus on Gruumsh. There are five other orcish deities who are almost always ignored (same holds for pretty much all the "monstrous" races, and even many demihuman races).
A nation that begrudgingly accepts other nations on their borders and holds to peace for a time IMO fits better with Ilneval, who is just as warlike, but much more tempered; he is the strategist/leader deity and would recognize the need to not antagonize everyone. Of course, I would still see them as willing to fight some neighbors at times to expand if they see an opportunity.
That said, the idea of a nation willing to live n begrudging peace with neighbors would IMO work slightly better for hobgoblins or goblins, given the nature of Bargrivyek.
All that said, none of the races should be so straightjacketed by the dogma of the deities. A stable orcish nation is definitely in Gruumsh's best interest, and while he may have less respect for his followers' lives than others, he's not stupid. I've always seen the aggressiveness as a result of orcish fecundity. They produce too many offspring to be stable, so they go on wars that tend to kill many, who are considered the "weakest" of the lot. If that has been "resolved" they don't need to be as aggressive.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 00:00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I don't think the idea that Gruumsh could either be willing to change or at least be curious about experimenting with something else is all that crazy.
I think the issues thematically with this is that I think we are always supposed to perceive our Realms gods and powers like the Greek gods; fallible due to their rigidity (and in game terms, their portfolios and alignment.)
I don't think Gruumsh would experiment with something different; it doesn't fit his nature. Now, I could see where Obould had success, perhaps Gruumsh would look down and celebrate all that conquered land and holdings by his orcs and be pleased! But when they just stayed there, maintained borders, I'm sure he'd start getting frustrated that his orcs weren't acting like...orcs.
So, he'd get something he'd want...but in the end, he wouldn't be able to maintain it at all. It'd drive him crazy to see his own lust for war not echoed in his followers. The orcs could obviously think of change, and perhaps work and yearn for more, and try to ignore the calling and lure of more power promised to them by whispers from Gruumsh to them in dreams or battle. They can fight their nature...but not Gruumsh. He IS his own form of nature.
My 2 coppers. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 01:06:18
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Obould's ways are not Gruumsh's ways, they are not Orcish ways.
His orcs may revere him. And pretend to themselves that they follow Gruumsh. But they are weak, soft, decadent. Farming? Trading? And not even trading gold for weapons, but for farm implements and pretty-smelling soap! Even kobolds aren't as gutless as these pathetic humickers.
Real orcs do not toil in the sun. They take from the toil from others, the strong vs the weak, if they are strong then it does not matter if the weak are humans, beasts, or orcs themselves. They do not treat humans and elves and halflings as peers and allies, they treat these as food!
What will happen to Obould's little kingdom once the population of orcs within grows too large for farming and trade to sustain? Obould's friendly neighbours will not be so friendly once orc migrants begin to expand and displace their own (non-orc) peoples. If Many-Arrows grows too large or too dense or too dispersed then conflict is inevitable.
But if Many-Arrows carefully remains civilized and meek and timid enough to continue diplomacy with other civilized folk they will instead face a different problem. All the other orcs of Faerun - true orcs who have not insultingly abandoned Gruumsh's ways - continue to multiply and gather strength. The day will come when they bring their own kinds of trade and diplomacy to the false orcs of Many-Arrows - and the ashes of Many-Arrows will show the world what Gruumsh teaches about civilization. |
[/Ayrik] |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 01:09:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Obould's ways are not Gruumsh's ways, they are not Orcish ways.
His orcs may revere him. And pretend to themselves that they follow Gruumsh. But they are weak, soft, decadent. Farming? Trading? And not even trading gold for weapons, but for farm implements and pretty-smelling soap! Even kobolds aren't as gutless as these pathetic humickers.
Real orcs do not toil in the sun. They take from the toil from others, the strong vs the weak, if they are strong then it does not matter if the weak are humans, beasts, or orcs themselves. They do not treat humans and elves and halflings as peers and allies, they treat these as food!
What will happen to Obould's little kingdom once the population of orcs within grows too large for farming and trade to sustain? Obould's friendly neighbours will not be so friendly once orc migrants begin to expand and displace their own (non-orc) peoples. If Many-Arrows grows too large or too dense or too dispersed then conflict is inevitable.
But if Many-Arrows carefully remains civilized and meek and timid enough to continue diplomacy with other civilized folk they will instead face a different problem. All the other orcs of Faerun - true orcs who have not insultingly abandoned Gruumsh's ways - continue to multiply and gather strength. The day will come when they bring their own kinds of trade and diplomacy to the false orcs of Many-Arrows - and the ashes of Many-Arrows will show the world what Gruumsh teaches about civilization.
This falls apart when you see that Gruumsh elevated Obould to being one of his Exarchs upon his death. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 23:56:43
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When I squint at that particular detail from published canon I don't see Gruumsh choosing Obould as his Exarch.
I discern Cyric pretending to be Gruumsh - another of his bold/suicidal, masterful/incompetent, and genius/insane godly deceptions. Gruumsh wouldn't be concerned - these worthless orcs are beneath his regard anyhow, better to let them die before they contaminate more of his race. |
[/Ayrik] |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 23:59:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When I squint at that particular detail from published canon I don't see Gruumsh choosing Obould as his Exarch.
I discern Cyric pretending to be Gruumsh - another of his bold/suicidal, masterful/incompetent, and genius/insane godly deceptions. Gruumsh wouldn't be concerned - these worthless orcs are beneath his regard anyhow, better to let them die before they contaminate more of his race.
Again, that sort of doesn't make sense, because Obould is not only listed as an Exarch of Obould, he lives in Nishrek right alongside him. You're welcome to say "I don't like it," but concocting some weird cosmic scheme for a plot point that's pretty firmly canon seems sort of odd. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 00:53:15
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Shargaas should be more prevalent in the Realms. Very cool Orc deity.
If Shargaas could backstab and slay Gruumsh, he would in a heartbeat.
Maybe Shargaas should be the new head of the Orc Pantheon. |
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Changing the Orc Pantheon
