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 Who was the Vampire High Rider?
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BenJoe72
Acolyte

Hungary
2 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2019 :  14:05:27  Show Profile Send BenJoe72 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hey all!

I'm fairly new to the FR and I can't seem to find one piece of information I'd like to use. Everyone talks about the High Rider who turned into a Vampire and then the whole "gods sending the Companion sun to protect Elturel" and all that. But who was that HR?

Lord Dhelt took the place of the High Rider in 1358DR (last recorded note of him still being the HR is 1372DR) and the whole vampire thing happened in ~1450DR and he was a human. Either it wasn't him but his successor, or it was him and nobody in the Sword Coast was wierded out by a human living for more than a century and still looking like a middle aged man, while avoiding the Sun at all cost, never accompanying the Hellriders to any mission to the south (because of running water) and all that Vampire stuff.

TL;DR - Who was the Vampire High Rider because Lord Dhelt being it doesn't make sense?

yup

Edited by - BenJoe72 on 24 Oct 2019 14:05:59

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4815 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2019 :  14:53:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Assuming dhelt was one of the hell riders that went to hell (see the new adventure), then it kinda makes more sense for him to be the vampire.

I'm assuming here that zariel was faking being good and actually orchestrated the whole fall of elturel from the beginning and so would have planted a minion who would become ruler of elturel and necessitate a need for the companion.

I don't follow the backstory in the new adventure where zariel is an angel that becomes lord of the nine as that doesn't work with the existing lore on zariel. So I figure she faked redemption or pretended to be an angel once again and returned to orchestrate the downfall of elturel (I doubt many people would be conversant with the politics of baator).

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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
350 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2019 :  15:02:53  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been working on Elturel for the wiki, and AFAICT, we really don't know. That bit of lore was apparently invented for SCAG and then clarified/altered for DiA, but the vampire ruler at the time (1444 DR) is still unnamed.

I don't think it was Dhelt, for all the same reasons. Plus, it would be too miserable for a good, classic-edition ruler to be made the villain (though it is in keeping for 4e and 5e). But there's just seventy years of history for absolutely anything to happen in. There could've been several High Riders since Dhelt.

One interesting connection is that Elturel is the starting point for the Ravenloft computer games, and a certain Count Strahd von Zarovich is the BBEG of the first. So a famous vampire has good reason to have beef with Elturel.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elturel

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Edited by - BadCatMan on 24 Oct 2019 15:07:14
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2019 :  01:34:18  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Assuming dhelt was one of the hell riders that went to hell (see the new adventure), then it kinda makes more sense for him to be the vampire.

I'm assuming here that zariel was faking being good and actually orchestrated the whole fall of elturel from the beginning and so would have planted a minion who would become ruler of elturel and necessitate a need for the companion.

I don't follow the backstory in the new adventure where zariel is an angel that becomes lord of the nine as that doesn't work with the existing lore on zariel. So I figure she faked redemption or pretended to be an angel once again and returned to orchestrate the downfall of elturel (I doubt many people would be conversant with the politics of baator).



Actually, the passage of time on the planes, is quite strange. It actually noted in canon there are visible differences in passage of time between the planes, and Prime Material.

Quenthel Baenre was dead for 4 years, but stated it was 10 years for her, but even earlier lore, implied t was decades (ie she already became a Yochlol, and was such for a time, to the point she started to lose her identity from the passage of time).

My guess it that time between the Prime Material, and the Planes, isn't perfectly in synch (which actually alone explains a lot of inconsistencies)

It's also notable Zariel's and Bel's position of Archdevils, from the start had timeline complications - In 1E lore, Tiamat was was the Archdevil of Avernus, but in 2E lore (which spanned a few decades after 1E lore), Zariel was an Archdevil for ages, and Bel also I think one for over a century.

With Zariel becoming the ruler of Avernus in 1350s, it has sense with 1E lore, with Tiamat being the Ruler of Avernus before that in 1E lore, and Ed confirmed Tiamat ruled Avernus once and was an Archdevil.

Edited by - Baltas on 29 Oct 2019 01:52:58
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
651 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2019 :  22:56:09  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jander Sunstar is the answer to the question, https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar.
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BenJoe72
Acolyte

Hungary
2 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2019 :  06:29:39  Show Profile Send BenJoe72 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Jander Sunstar is the answer to the question, https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar.


Interesting character. Although I don't see any information about him becoming the High Rider at any point. (that 50 or so years is missing from everyone's life journal it seems) Also from the short description on this wiki page, he doesn't struck me as the kinda guy who would mess up Elturel with his "vast network of vampire spawn, charmed minions, undead allies and sycophantic collaborators" (from the Elturel page on the same wiki). He's just a random dude, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he doesn't even wanna be a vampire. Also on the Elturel page it says that the vampire lord was burnt to ashes by the Companion, but Jander lives and is still imprisoned in Avernus for eternity.

Though I could see him being the one who turned the High Rider in question into a vampire, trying to save their life or something. I can imagine something like one of the other deserters (from Avernus) getting some kind of curse or madness from the horrors of the nine hells and him offering help to a comrade, just like he did with Anna. Later obviously regretting this decision, resulting in him wanting to kill himself once more.

PS.: Thanks everyone for the answers so far. I should've read DIA before asking this question because I didn't know how important Elturel is in that storyline.

yup
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
651 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2019 :  21:44:41  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't disagree. It seems as though they didn't quite capture what I knew of Jander. I'm also concerned that some of the timing involving Zariel is off, but that aside it's a pretty sweet adventure and I'm looking forward to playing it. (FYI, I believe it is Hell Rider, not High Rider.)
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
350 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  00:13:57  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The High Rider is the leader of Elturel and of the Hellriders (a.k.a. HellRiders and Hell Riders), who are the defenders of Elturel.

Christie Golden is also unimpressed with what they did to Jander Sunstar.

The timing of Zariel's fall is weird for a few reasons, as DiA puts the Hellriders' invasion of Avernus in 1354, yet the Old Gray Box and 2e FRCS mentions imply it is a rather older story and made to rescue someone taken to Hell (and you'd think they'd've remembered an angel).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hellriders

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5641 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  01:35:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, clearly a decision was made to make the event more "recent" but why they couldn't be true the sources and weave in the "rescue the companion" angle and set it back in the 1330s DR or so is utterly mystifying. But then again, they're on the record as giving themselves licence to ignore stuff. Really makes me want to make that rant post I held off on a couple of weeks ago ... *sigh*

-- George Krashos

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3069 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  13:04:51  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I view current WotC Realms products as "Fan Fiction" now. It's been rather freeing.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 31 Oct 2019 13:05:32
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4815 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  14:15:33  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fan fiction is often of better quality than wotc stuff of late (about 10-15 years).

Although could we not fix it by having two separate expeditions to hell, portals malfunction and reopen quite regularly and the first expedition could have alerted the baatezu to the existence of the portal.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32530 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  16:00:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given that Jander was trapped in Ravenloft, and it's almost impossible to get out of there, it seems unlikely he could be involved in anything in the Realms.

If I was going to involve Jander in the Realms at all, I'd say that he was destroyed at the end of Vampire of the Mists, but was then reborn (or somehow brought back) as a mortal, back in the Realms.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4815 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  16:06:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Slain, ends up in hell as punishment for his crimes. Cruel devils decide to remake his soul into an infernal vampire to prolong his self loathing for all eternity.

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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
350 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2019 :  00:36:34  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Although could we not fix it by having two separate expeditions to hell, portals malfunction and reopen quite regularly and the first expedition could have alerted the baatezu to the existence of the portal.


Funny you should say that... Dragon+ #28, released the other day, has a short story based around Elturel. It mentions The Ride of 1354 as "Our order's first major campaign on the plane of Avernus, taking the fight to the enemy." This implies there were later major campaigns into Avernus, and possibly that there were earlier minor campaigns.
https://dnd.dragonmag.com/2019/10/16/fiction-kallinors-charge/content.html

And I just realised 1354 DR is the year devils seized Dragonspear Castle, which is not an unreasonable distance away from Elturel, down the Trade Way. So DiA chose the date to connect the two devil invasions, even though there's no sign in earlier lore that Elturel was involved with stopping the devils of Dragonspear, and no mention of Dragonspear in DiA.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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