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 Who was the Vampire High Rider?

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BenJoe72 Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 14:05:27
Hey all!

I'm fairly new to the FR and I can't seem to find one piece of information I'd like to use. Everyone talks about the High Rider who turned into a Vampire and then the whole "gods sending the Companion sun to protect Elturel" and all that. But who was that HR?

Lord Dhelt took the place of the High Rider in 1358DR (last recorded note of him still being the HR is 1372DR) and the whole vampire thing happened in ~1450DR and he was a human. Either it wasn't him but his successor, or it was him and nobody in the Sword Coast was wierded out by a human living for more than a century and still looking like a middle aged man, while avoiding the Sun at all cost, never accompanying the Hellriders to any mission to the south (because of running water) and all that Vampire stuff.

TL;DR - Who was the Vampire High Rider because Lord Dhelt being it doesn't make sense?
16   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 07:04:22
Senior Scribe BadCatMan,

I agree it is good to have empty space in their for writing. I even think it is cool that they have so much buy in with the DM's Guild. I just see the massive lore build up leading to a lore court being convened and product being released to settle what is right, wrong, etc. Great for revenue, but not good for the community.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

There's nothing to elaborate on. I meant that there's a 72-year gap in history between the summary of Elturel in the FRCS 3e in 1372 DR and the reign of the vampire High Rider that ended in 1444 DR. A lot of stuff could've happened in that time, and there would've been several High Riders. It's a blank spot, but blank spots are good: DMs, players, and fans can fill them in, and wiki writers don't have to. :)

BadCatMan Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 01:16:06
There's nothing to elaborate on. I meant that there's a 72-year gap in history between the summary of Elturel in the FRCS 3e in 1372 DR and the reign of the vampire High Rider that ended in 1444 DR. A lot of stuff could've happened in that time, and there would've been several High Riders. It's a blank spot, but blank spots are good: DMs, players, and fans can fill them in, and wiki writers don't have to. :)
cpthero2 Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 21:16:09
Senior Scribe BatCatMan,

You know, I found much of what you said interesting, but one bit in particular:

quote:
But there's just seventy years of history for absolutely anything to happen in.


With you having such a fantastic site and are steeped in lore to the hilt yourself, I was wondering if you could elaborate on that little part right there? Predominantly for some new friends of mine that I've recruited to use this site and yours. :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I've been working on Elturel for the wiki, and AFAICT, we really don't know. That bit of lore was apparently invented for SCAG and then clarified/altered for DiA, but the vampire ruler at the time (1444 DR) is still unnamed.

I don't think it was Dhelt, for all the same reasons. Plus, it would be too miserable for a good, classic-edition ruler to be made the villain (though it is in keeping for 4e and 5e). But there's just seventy years of history for absolutely anything to happen in. There could've been several High Riders since Dhelt.

One interesting connection is that Elturel is the starting point for the Ravenloft computer games, and a certain Count Strahd von Zarovich is the BBEG of the first. So a famous vampire has good reason to have beef with Elturel.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elturel

BadCatMan Posted - 01 Nov 2019 : 00:36:34
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Although could we not fix it by having two separate expeditions to hell, portals malfunction and reopen quite regularly and the first expedition could have alerted the baatezu to the existence of the portal.


Funny you should say that... Dragon+ #28, released the other day, has a short story based around Elturel. It mentions The Ride of 1354 as "Our order's first major campaign on the plane of Avernus, taking the fight to the enemy." This implies there were later major campaigns into Avernus, and possibly that there were earlier minor campaigns.
https://dnd.dragonmag.com/2019/10/16/fiction-kallinors-charge/content.html

And I just realised 1354 DR is the year devils seized Dragonspear Castle, which is not an unreasonable distance away from Elturel, down the Trade Way. So DiA chose the date to connect the two devil invasions, even though there's no sign in earlier lore that Elturel was involved with stopping the devils of Dragonspear, and no mention of Dragonspear in DiA.
Gary Dallison Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 16:06:41
Slain, ends up in hell as punishment for his crimes. Cruel devils decide to remake his soul into an infernal vampire to prolong his self loathing for all eternity.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 16:00:06
Given that Jander was trapped in Ravenloft, and it's almost impossible to get out of there, it seems unlikely he could be involved in anything in the Realms.

If I was going to involve Jander in the Realms at all, I'd say that he was destroyed at the end of Vampire of the Mists, but was then reborn (or somehow brought back) as a mortal, back in the Realms.
Gary Dallison Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 14:15:33
Fan fiction is often of better quality than wotc stuff of late (about 10-15 years).

Although could we not fix it by having two separate expeditions to hell, portals malfunction and reopen quite regularly and the first expedition could have alerted the baatezu to the existence of the portal.
Brimstone Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 13:04:51
I view current WotC Realms products as "Fan Fiction" now. It's been rather freeing.
George Krashos Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 01:35:19
Yes, clearly a decision was made to make the event more "recent" but why they couldn't be true the sources and weave in the "rescue the companion" angle and set it back in the 1330s DR or so is utterly mystifying. But then again, they're on the record as giving themselves licence to ignore stuff. Really makes me want to make that rant post I held off on a couple of weeks ago ... *sigh*

-- George Krashos
BadCatMan Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 00:13:57
The High Rider is the leader of Elturel and of the Hellriders (a.k.a. HellRiders and Hell Riders), who are the defenders of Elturel.

Christie Golden is also unimpressed with what they did to Jander Sunstar.

The timing of Zariel's fall is weird for a few reasons, as DiA puts the Hellriders' invasion of Avernus in 1354, yet the Old Gray Box and 2e FRCS mentions imply it is a rather older story and made to rescue someone taken to Hell (and you'd think they'd've remembered an angel).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hellriders
TomCosta Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 21:44:41
I don't disagree. It seems as though they didn't quite capture what I knew of Jander. I'm also concerned that some of the timing involving Zariel is off, but that aside it's a pretty sweet adventure and I'm looking forward to playing it. (FYI, I believe it is Hell Rider, not High Rider.)
BenJoe72 Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 06:29:39
quote:

Jander Sunstar is the answer to the question, https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar.


Interesting character. Although I don't see any information about him becoming the High Rider at any point. (that 50 or so years is missing from everyone's life journal it seems) Also from the short description on this wiki page, he doesn't struck me as the kinda guy who would mess up Elturel with his "vast network of vampire spawn, charmed minions, undead allies and sycophantic collaborators" (from the Elturel page on the same wiki). He's just a random dude, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he doesn't even wanna be a vampire. Also on the Elturel page it says that the vampire lord was burnt to ashes by the Companion, but Jander lives and is still imprisoned in Avernus for eternity.

Though I could see him being the one who turned the High Rider in question into a vampire, trying to save their life or something. I can imagine something like one of the other deserters (from Avernus) getting some kind of curse or madness from the horrors of the nine hells and him offering help to a comrade, just like he did with Anna. Later obviously regretting this decision, resulting in him wanting to kill himself once more.

PS.: Thanks everyone for the answers so far. I should've read DIA before asking this question because I didn't know how important Elturel is in that storyline.
TomCosta Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 22:56:09
Jander Sunstar is the answer to the question, https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar.
Baltas Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 01:34:18
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Assuming dhelt was one of the hell riders that went to hell (see the new adventure), then it kinda makes more sense for him to be the vampire.

I'm assuming here that zariel was faking being good and actually orchestrated the whole fall of elturel from the beginning and so would have planted a minion who would become ruler of elturel and necessitate a need for the companion.

I don't follow the backstory in the new adventure where zariel is an angel that becomes lord of the nine as that doesn't work with the existing lore on zariel. So I figure she faked redemption or pretended to be an angel once again and returned to orchestrate the downfall of elturel (I doubt many people would be conversant with the politics of baator).



Actually, the passage of time on the planes, is quite strange. It actually noted in canon there are visible differences in passage of time between the planes, and Prime Material.

Quenthel Baenre was dead for 4 years, but stated it was 10 years for her, but even earlier lore, implied t was decades (ie she already became a Yochlol, and was such for a time, to the point she started to lose her identity from the passage of time).

My guess it that time between the Prime Material, and the Planes, isn't perfectly in synch (which actually alone explains a lot of inconsistencies)

It's also notable Zariel's and Bel's position of Archdevils, from the start had timeline complications - In 1E lore, Tiamat was was the Archdevil of Avernus, but in 2E lore (which spanned a few decades after 1E lore), Zariel was an Archdevil for ages, and Bel also I think one for over a century.

With Zariel becoming the ruler of Avernus in 1350s, it has sense with 1E lore, with Tiamat being the Ruler of Avernus before that in 1E lore, and Ed confirmed Tiamat ruled Avernus once and was an Archdevil.
BadCatMan Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 15:02:53
I've been working on Elturel for the wiki, and AFAICT, we really don't know. That bit of lore was apparently invented for SCAG and then clarified/altered for DiA, but the vampire ruler at the time (1444 DR) is still unnamed.

I don't think it was Dhelt, for all the same reasons. Plus, it would be too miserable for a good, classic-edition ruler to be made the villain (though it is in keeping for 4e and 5e). But there's just seventy years of history for absolutely anything to happen in. There could've been several High Riders since Dhelt.

One interesting connection is that Elturel is the starting point for the Ravenloft computer games, and a certain Count Strahd von Zarovich is the BBEG of the first. So a famous vampire has good reason to have beef with Elturel.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elturel
Gary Dallison Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 14:53:30
Assuming dhelt was one of the hell riders that went to hell (see the new adventure), then it kinda makes more sense for him to be the vampire.

I'm assuming here that zariel was faking being good and actually orchestrated the whole fall of elturel from the beginning and so would have planted a minion who would become ruler of elturel and necessitate a need for the companion.

I don't follow the backstory in the new adventure where zariel is an angel that becomes lord of the nine as that doesn't work with the existing lore on zariel. So I figure she faked redemption or pretended to be an angel once again and returned to orchestrate the downfall of elturel (I doubt many people would be conversant with the politics of baator).

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