Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Maerimydra
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3725 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 :  17:19:19  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I'm working on expanding the ideas of my Shields of the North campaign to include the Drow series of modules which come after the Giant Series, and I'm going to need to use Maerimydra for the Drow City.

I want to start sprinkling information (via NPC Drow) into the campaign ahead of time...but I have sparse information on the city:

quote:
Maerimydra

Population: 11 000 (cca 5000 Drow)
Noble Houses (7): Chûmavh(1) (leading house), T’sarran (2) (Kiaransalee), Wharreil (3) (archmage of Maerimydra), Ned’razak (4) (Achmage of Szith Morcane), Mar-Shinn (5) (wizard Szith Morcane)
Morcane (6) (Szith Morcane only – minor house), Dhuurniv (Shadowdale/Shadowdark only – minor house),

Maerimydra lies beneath the heart of the Dalelands, roughly 10 miles below the south-central border of Mistledale. No tunnels lead directly up from the city to Mistledale, but passages
run to Haptooth Hill in Battledale, the Underdark (Shadowdark) beneath Shadowdale, and the outpost of Szith Morcane in the Dagger Hills.

The cavern ceiling is 600 feet high at its highest point, over the boulevard between the Courtyard of Lolth and Castle Maerimydra.

Maerimydra’s fires would have fouled the cavern’s air to a lethal point long ago, but the city’s builders created a number of tiny, hidden portals to the Elemental Plane of Air in the upper reaches of the cavern. Fresh air enters above the noble palaces in the northwest corner, and a soft but noticeable breeze blows south and east, exiting through another array of tiny portals in the vicinity of the East Gate.

While the collapse of buildings has partially blocked an adjoining street with rubble in many places, most of Maerimydra’s streets are relatively clear. The typical street is 20 to 30 feet wide. Grand public staircases lead from one level to another at the spots marked on the map. Each is about 50 feet wide and
50 feet long, ascending or descending about 30 to 40 feet between the city’s various plateaus.

Szith Morcane
The drow settlement of Szith Morcane has lain beneath the Dordrien Crypts for centuries. Founded in 804 DR as an outpost of Maerimydra when that city also ruled Shadowdale,
Szith Morcane served as a supply station for drow operating on the surface and a staging point for occasional raids into Daggerdale. With the flight of the drow from Shadowdale, the
inhabitants of Szith Morcane lost interest in the surface world until the recent arrival of refugees from Maerimydra. Szith Morcane was built inside a complex of caverns, all of
which open out into a vast chasm that penetrates deep into the earth.A large chasm forms the basic structure of Szith Morcane. Six tunnels lead from the southeast side of the chasm wall into the caverns that house the drow outpost. From the floor, the chasm plunges to a depth of 600 feet before ending in a rushing torrent of black water.


Can anyone point me to resources that can help me expand on this?

Maerimydra as it existed during the "days of ye ol' Grey Box" is what I'm after. I play AD&D based on that box; and while information printed after is fine and good, I have no plans for the place to be obliterated or any such.

AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4725 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 :  17:39:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll look through my pdfs and see what I can find. I wouldn't expect much though

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1512 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 :  18:16:22  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It sounds like you are working from City of the Spider Queen where ruined Maermydra (post-grey box) is fully detailed. I also worked a decent amount of lore on House Dhurrniv into Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land which you could use in your write-up. The original lore on House Dhuurniv came from Cormanthyr, pages 29, 30, 44. Note by implication, the Scouring of the Land info on House Dhuurniv is reverse engineered back to the drow mentions in the old grey box.

--Eric

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So I'm working on expanding the ideas of my Shields of the North campaign to include the Drow series of modules which come after the Giant Series, and I'm going to need to use Maerimydra for the Drow City.

I want to start sprinkling information (via NPC Drow) into the campaign ahead of time...but I have sparse information on the city:

quote:
Maerimydra

Population: 11 000 (cca 5000 Drow)
Noble Houses (7): Chûmavh(1) (leading house), T’sarran (2) (Kiaransalee), Wharreil (3) (archmage of Maerimydra), Ned’razak (4) (Achmage of Szith Morcane), Mar-Shinn (5) (wizard Szith Morcane)
Morcane (6) (Szith Morcane only – minor house), Dhuurniv (Shadowdale/Shadowdark only – minor house),

Maerimydra lies beneath the heart of the Dalelands, roughly 10 miles below the south-central border of Mistledale. No tunnels lead directly up from the city to Mistledale, but passages
run to Haptooth Hill in Battledale, the Underdark (Shadowdark) beneath Shadowdale, and the outpost of Szith Morcane in the Dagger Hills.

The cavern ceiling is 600 feet high at its highest point, over the boulevard between the Courtyard of Lolth and Castle Maerimydra.

Maerimydra’s fires would have fouled the cavern’s air to a lethal point long ago, but the city’s builders created a number of tiny, hidden portals to the Elemental Plane of Air in the upper reaches of the cavern. Fresh air enters above the noble palaces in the northwest corner, and a soft but noticeable breeze blows south and east, exiting through another array of tiny portals in the vicinity of the East Gate.

While the collapse of buildings has partially blocked an adjoining street with rubble in many places, most of Maerimydra’s streets are relatively clear. The typical street is 20 to 30 feet wide. Grand public staircases lead from one level to another at the spots marked on the map. Each is about 50 feet wide and
50 feet long, ascending or descending about 30 to 40 feet between the city’s various plateaus.

Szith Morcane
The drow settlement of Szith Morcane has lain beneath the Dordrien Crypts for centuries. Founded in 804 DR as an outpost of Maerimydra when that city also ruled Shadowdale,
Szith Morcane served as a supply station for drow operating on the surface and a staging point for occasional raids into Daggerdale. With the flight of the drow from Shadowdale, the
inhabitants of Szith Morcane lost interest in the surface world until the recent arrival of refugees from Maerimydra. Szith Morcane was built inside a complex of caverns, all of
which open out into a vast chasm that penetrates deep into the earth.A large chasm forms the basic structure of Szith Morcane. Six tunnels lead from the southeast side of the chasm wall into the caverns that house the drow outpost. From the floor, the chasm plunges to a depth of 600 feet before ending in a rushing torrent of black water.


Can anyone point me to resources that can help me expand on this?

Maerimydra as it existed during the "days of ye ol' Grey Box" is what I'm after. I play AD&D based on that box; and while information printed after is fine and good, I have no plans for the place to be obliterated or any such.


--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 15 Feb 2019 18:17:42
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2135 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 :  19:43:33  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is literally nothing from the Old Grey Box days. That goes for the vast majority of the Underdark.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 :  22:09:53  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FR Wiki can be useful on this particular topic. The article is quite well written, and the references section includes many titles used as sources: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maerimydra

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3725 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  02:03:38  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

It sounds like you are working from City of the Spider Queen where ruined Maermydra (post-grey box) is fully detailed. I also worked a decent amount of lore on House Dhurrniv into Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land which you could use in your write-up. The original lore on House Dhuurniv came from Cormanthyr, pages 29, 30, 44. Note by implication, the Scouring of the Land info on House Dhuurniv is reverse engineered back to the drow mentions in the old grey box.

--Eric




I want to avoid the destruction of the city in truth. I found what I quoted in another thread...but it wasn't date specific.

I'm running the "Against the Giants" series in the Dragonspine Mountains where the giants raid outlying areas of recovering Phlan.

That will lead to the Drow series with the goal being the city of Maerimydra instead of the city from the original series. I think it will be a good tie in.

Of course, they have to survive the Slaver Series that they are getting ready to start first...which I've set along the north coast of the Moonsea with Sudherham in the Galena Mountains.

THEN they will go through the Temple of Elemental Evil...

Side Note: they have already been through the "Moathouse" which I added to Sokol Keep with the above ground being that presented by Ruins of Adventure and the catacombs those of the Moathouse. Lareth "the Beautiful" (a human cleric of Lolth) was changed to be a seller of slaves to the Slavers and so there is the start of a tie in between the slavers and the Temple of Elemental Evil (the other being in the adventure A0: Darkshelf Quarry where there is a shrine to an Elemental God too).

After a modified Nulb (in Sulasprynn) they will be in a modified Temple of Elemental Evil in the nearby Galena Mountains...

Then the Giant Series down to the Drow Series and we are full circle.


AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3725 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  02:10:58  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess I'll just use relevant information from what I've found (thanks for the wiki reminder!) and expand on it while also joining together the city information from the Drow series.

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2438 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  02:45:18  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just remember that Maerimydra's location changed between 2e and 3e. In 2e's Guide to the Underdark (which sadly doesn't have any information on the city), it's north of the Dales, a bit north of Voonlar. City of the Spider Queen moves it south, under the forest of Cormanthor. Personally, I've always preferred it in its 2e location; it never seemed believable for it to have survived for millennia if it was directly underneath all those elven realms.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3725 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  03:14:21  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Just remember that Maerimydra's location changed between 2e and 3e. In 2e's Guide to the Underdark (which sadly doesn't have any information on the city), it's north of the Dales, a bit north of Voonlar. City of the Spider Queen moves it south, under the forest of Cormanthor. Personally, I've always preferred it in its 2e location; it never seemed believable for it to have survived for millennia if it was directly underneath all those elven realms.



Yep, it will not be under the Elven Court. Since it is going to tie in with the Against the Giants it will for sure be nearer the Dragonspine Mts.

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  20:10:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to take the lazy route (although not all that lazy, considering the original D&D world of your modules), just use Erelhei-Cinlu, which was detailed in the 4th edition (IIRC) Drow of the Underdark. In other words, just substitute that city for Maerimmydra, and your good to go. Just leave the FR name - your kids will never now the difference.

I have NO WAY of checking sources ATM... really must remedy that... {Markustay goes looking for a screwdriver...}

EDIT: Actually, if was the 3rd edition DotU. I am just so used to blaming 4e for everything. LOL
Supposedly, Dragon Magazine#298 has more info on the city.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2019 20:15:59
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3725 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2019 :  21:51:40  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If you want to take the lazy route (although not all that lazy, considering the original D&D world of your modules), just use Erelhei-Cinlu, which was detailed in the 4th edition (IIRC) Drow of the Underdark. In other words, just substitute that city for Maerimmydra, and your good to go. Just leave the FR name - your kids will never now the difference.

I have NO WAY of checking sources ATM... really must remedy that... {Markustay goes looking for a screwdriver...}

EDIT: Actually, if was the 3rd edition DotU. I am just so used to blaming 4e for everything. LOL
Supposedly, Dragon Magazine#298 has more info on the city.



I have the original material for "Cinlu" and I was thinking about using it instead.

Dragon Magazine 298...thanks! I'll go read it now.

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
529 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  00:49:40  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have the original material for "Cinlu" and I was thinking about using it instead.

Dragon Magazine 298...thanks! I'll go read it now.


It might be interesting to compare our take on this area, I am playing within it for some time.
Go to Top of Page

TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  01:27:11  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The city was the subject of a 5E Adventurer's League adventure (one of the better one's IMO) associated with Out of the Abyss story. You can find it on DM's Guild.
Go to Top of Page

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1618 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  01:46:37  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5586 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  02:33:54  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.



After Eleint 23 in 1372 DR according to "Grand History of the Realms", p.153.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 20 Sep 2019 02:35:14
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
529 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  14:58:13  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.


refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistrae in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  15:16:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The city was the subject of a 5E Adventurer's League adventure (one of the better one's IMO) associated with Out of the Abyss story. You can find it on DM's Guild.



Yeah, but it was more about what remains of the city. Even though, apparently, it has been rebuilt and now The Hidden, some Lolthites, a band of Eilistraeens, and some illithids are rebuilding it, alongisde groups belonging to each AL factions?

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
Go to Top of Page

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1618 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  15:29:35  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistraee in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.


I'm assuming that many 'faithful' of Eilistraee will be fugitives and refugees from drow settlements who are prepared to profess religious dogma they may not fully accept or even understand because they have no other reasonable place to go.

It's not as if real world religious charities only help sincerely religious people and a drow outcast from their house or even city doesn't realistically have many places to go.

Temples of Eilistraee are analogous to real world churches and missions where refugee child soldiers are rehabilitated, socialized and helped to rebuild some semblance of normalcy, as well as charities where former gang members and criminals are given a chance at new lives.

One has to imagine that there are a lot more dark elves seeking their help than there are those who will ever become truly repentant worshipers of the Dark Maiden.

One adventure hook that I've been toying with is what happens to those dark elves who are disgusted with mainstream drow culture and reject both Lloth and Vhaeraun, but do not find any religious calling as servants of the Dark Dancer.

I imagine that it varies by the priestesses of each individual shrine or temple, but that at least some of them attempt to find such dark elves a path in life that won't lead them into the webs of Lloth again. If they are too damaged by the cruelties they've seen, lived and performed during their previous lives to be able to truly repent, at least they can find some kind of lives, with some kind of honor.

So one PC* has been asked to employ a few drow elves as his personal security, as his merchant house and mercenary company take part in hostilities in Unther. There, they can employ their undeniable talents for merciless killing in the service of a legal entity with (as far as the priestesses believe) an honorable culture and acceptable end goals.

'Reforming' a former Llothite assassin who killed indiscriminately as part of paranoid drow culture into a security professional indifferent to religion who kills only when his employer tells him to should count as a 'win' for the priestesses of Eilistraee.

After all, it would be unreasonable to expect a high percentage of people who've lived a callous, treacherous and cruel existence for decades to successfully reform themselves into genuinely good people, just because they found themselves at a place in life where they briefly decided they wanted to try.

I'm a defense attorney and I believe in redemption, second chances and forgiveness. I also believe that change is extremely hard and that most people are formed by their experiences, not a single decision to suddenly become someone else. So, for every success story, there will be dozens of dark elves who tried, but fell short.

A human merchant lord with a less than legal background and the lover of a priestess of Eilistraee.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  16:04:50  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistraee in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.


I'm assuming that many 'faithful' of Eilistraee will be fugitives and refugees from drow settlements who are prepared to profess religious dogma they may not fully accept or even understand because they have no other reasonable place to go.

It's not as if real world religious charities only help sincerely religious people and a drow outcast from their house or even city doesn't realistically have many places to go.

Temples of Eilistraee are analogous to real world churches and missions where refugee child soldiers are rehabilitated, socialized and helped to rebuild some semblance of normalcy, as well as charities where former gang members and criminals are given a chance at new lives.

One has to imagine that there are a lot more dark elves seeking their help than there are those who will ever become truly repentant worshipers of the Dark Maiden.

One adventure hook that I've been toying with is what happens to those dark elves who are disgusted with mainstream drow culture and reject both Lloth and Vhaeraun, but do not find any religious calling as servants of the Dark Dancer.

I imagine that it varies by the priestesses of each individual shrine or temple, but that at least some of them attempt to find such dark elves a path in life that won't lead them into the webs of Lloth again. If they are too damaged by the cruelties they've seen, lived and performed during their previous lives to be able to truly repent, at least they can find some kind of lives, with some kind of honor.

So one PC* has been asked to employ a few drow elves as his personal security, as his merchant house and mercenary company take part in hostilities in Unther. There, they can employ their undeniable talents for merciless killing in the service of a legal entity with (as far as the priestesses believe) an honorable culture and acceptable end goals.

'Reforming' a former Llothite assassin who killed indiscriminately as part of paranoid drow culture into a security professional indifferent to religion who kills only when his employer tells him to should count as a 'win' for the priestesses of Eilistraee.

After all, it would be unreasonable to expect a high percentage of people who've lived a callous, treacherous and cruel existence for decades to successfully reform themselves into genuinely good people, just because they found themselves at a place in life where they briefly decided they wanted to try.

I'm a defense attorney and I believe in redemption, second chances and forgiveness. I also believe that change is extremely hard and that most people are formed by their experiences, not a single decision to suddenly become someone else. So, for every success story, there will be dozens of dark elves who tried, but fell short.

A human merchant lord with a less than legal background and the lover of a priestess of Eilistraee.



Temples of Eilistraee are not only that, though. They are also communities, as many drow are also born on the surface and raised by Eilistraeens. So, there are a whole lot of drow seeking help, but it's inevitable that, after miellennia, a large part of Eilistraeens wouldn't be converts, but people born in that environment. In short, there's also the act of forming an alternative society, rather than just redemption.

Even for redemption, it's not always exactly that. The drow are victims of abuse, so it's also about giving them what they've been denied their whole lives, while providing an actual commnunity. (especially since a lot of drow don't have that much to redeem for. Your next commoner that bleeds and tries to go forward in life without dying, forced to participate in the constant strife and backstabbing, but that would likely escape if given the chance--and the help--needed to make it to the surface in one piece and to thrive there, is an example).

One aspect of Eilistraeen communities that is also often overlooked is the effort they put in reinserting the drow into mainstream society, so to speak, as in building relationships with other races. Charity, but also art is one of their main tools. Re: arts (mostly music and dance, but not onlòy) that's another important aspect of the faith, and a prominent element in temples, also because of how art is used by the Eilistraeens in showing the drow another path of life.

Re: drow who are not ready/willing to profess Eilistraee's faith, as Ed mentioned in one of his replies, while their communities are obviously devoted to Eilistraee, there's room for choices. Refugees who receive their help are not forced to convert (even if certainly encouraged). Most importantly, Eilistraeen communities are not made up just priest(esse)s, there are a lot of lay people. So, even those who don't find any call as servants of the Dark Maiden can still be part of them (even more so because not all those who live among Eilistraeens are drow, so there's even going to be the typical Faerunian polytheism, which is also present among the Eilistraeens--according to Ed, they worship her above others, but also pray to to other deities). As for actively reaching to such dark elves, Eilistraee has dedicated orders, whose members regularly go down to find drow who need their help (like the commoner I mentioned above), no matter if they don't want to convert (at the risk of infiltrating Lolthite settlements for this). The Dark Maiden herslef is known to reach and help all drow in practical ways, even if not her followers.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Sep 2019 16:13:36
Go to Top of Page

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1618 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  16:35:27  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, from reading novels and sourcebooks about drow society, it is considerably more violent, brutal, treacherous and vicious than any real criminal organizations and gangs, so the 'average' drow elf will be someone who has survived as a violent criminal and slave-holder for decades.

Even 'good' drow presented in novels have killed more people than they remember and usually not for any better reasons than improving their personal position in society.

Besides, even innocent people who spend decades in prisons, surrounded by violent criminals, often have difficulty integrating into normal society. Just existing in a violent, paranoid, status-driven society of fear and dominance, where the weak are victimized, is enough to skew a person for the rest of their lives.

Most drow grow up in a society that's worse than any prison and they survive by learning a mindset, demeanor and values that are incompatible with living in an actual society.

I'd argue that anyone who grows up in drow society (not the tiny minority of dark elves who grow up in Eilistraeean society, but actual, subterranean drow cities) would inevitably have committed a lot of crimes that in real life would cause most people to regard them with fear, anger and loathing.

Typical drow commoner jobs involve bossing slaves, torturing them to encourage others and murdering anyone who shows resistance. Drow society is very much a slave society, a lot more vicious and cruel than even the worst real world ones.*

Not to mention that drow birth rates are very high, but they rarely have large families of children who survive to adulthood. This is because drow apparently murder each other at a high enough rates for the average drow to be at least complicit in a murder or two and most likely personally guilty. Often of family members.

People in our world who spend a couple of years in a violent street gang and a few more years in prison usually come out of the experience profoundly changed and many never manage to integrate into normal society again. An adult drow has spent six decades or more living in a hyper-violent, fratricidal, treacherous environment.

Realistically, most of the ones who try to reject their birth society will still be deeply scarred by it and tend to frighten more well-adjusted, less violent people (like dark elves who've grown up among Eilistraeeans from childhood).

*Well, they are more vicious and cruel than the ones we usually think of, but they might be about par for several pre-contact Americas societies, where battle captives were ritually tortured and murdered.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  17:01:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, sure, I'm not arguing that, and I'm not arguing that the recovery for converts is hard (or perhaps even not fully possible in certain cases). What I was saying is that, when you grow up in a "kill or die" environment, that goes to the point of stupidity, and which survives only because of plot armor (with edgy nonsense along the sides of "loving your child is weakness"), can you really talk about redemption? Most drow are victims of extreme abuse (from the people that should have loved them the most); they weren't given that much choice but to engage in the strife, because the alternative was death. In short, most commoners have it really bad, and certainly don't embrace the kind of life they're forced into--they're not happy with it, even if they take part in the cruelty of their society, and are scarred by it. They need to be taught life anew, a complete change of their perspective. And that can only be achieved by showing them empathy, alongside all the beauty that they've been missing on, and that a different path is actually possible (and it it is much happier and healthier--and can lead to a stronger society). I don't think this can even be compared to crime IRL, mostly because the situation of the drow is absurd (and not a shiny example of worldbuilding that makes sense, tbh). My other point was that Eilistraeen temples are not just devoted to redemption, but also to building an alternative society for the drow, one in which they can have an actual future, and to building bridges between the various races.

Re: novels, they tend to focus on converts, and on battles and flashy stuff, almost entirely neglecting the other activities of the Eilistraeens. Only EC actually tries to provide some insight into their efforts to help other people, and to build communities (while still adding nuance to them, as she takes in account that some Eilistraeens are converts, who are going to have problems changing their ways). Some novels, mostly Smedman's/Athans'--which have been ignored and then retconned as of 5e/Second Sundering--even give a mind-boggingly warped portrayal of Eilistraee&followers, to the point of directly contradicting the lore on important points (or sniping specific lines in sourcebooks, only to turn them upside down), and of just crapping all over what they stand for. Like when they said that males have no place among Eilistraeens, or that they mutilate males for watching the dances--when in canon males can and do participate in the various rites, and when, as a whole, the Eilistraeens welcome males like females. That--and many other gaffes (even failing at trivial matters, like describing certain rituals, which were instead randomly changed, and which meaning was warped despite its importance for the faith, like for the Evensong)--was simply false. The mistakes made for a portrayal of the good drow faith that was very similar to that of the Lolthites, as a whole, which doesn't make sense. Especially when, even after most of the original followers of the Dark Maiden were exterminated in the destruction of Miyeritar, after millennia, Eilistraeens--as a whole--are mostly made up of people who weren't born in a Lolthite society.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Sep 2019 17:40:01
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1400 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  19:37:06  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.



Marquise Dresimil Chûmavh (ruling house of Maerimydra) was attempting to rebuild and harness an ancient drow mythal that went wild under Ravens Bluff, in a settlement called Tower Chûmavhraele. I didn't quite get meaning of her title, but all this info is found in the novel Prince of Ravens.

There is a duergar city Grunthorigard and the drow city Nar'Vheen under the Ravens Bluff area too. Sadly, I haven't been able to find a scrap of info on either of those places, aside from they were referenced in the old RPGA LC era.

There are supposedly around 40 known drow cities in Faerun, and one of Ed's novels mentions drow cities under the Dales area warring upon one another.
Go to Top of Page

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1512 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  22:56:46  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also Dragon #354, page 70. The article might be useful to your campaign.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.



After Eleint 23 in 1372 DR according to "Grand History of the Realms", p.153.

-- George Krashos


--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
Go to Top of Page

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1512 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  23:07:20  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.


refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistrae in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.



Sshamath is not under Sembia. It's under the western Heartlands. See DDGttU.

Also, you might want to look at the Underspires article in Dragon Magazine 267

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8281 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2019 :  14:52:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
regarding Icelander's queries about about drow who don't want to follow Eilistraee, but who are also sick of religions like Lolth's, Vhaeraun's, Ghaunadaur's, etc....

I can see some of these drow possibly turning to the religions of their neighbors. If they are more lawfully biased and show any skill as a warrior (and especially if they show skill in psionics), I can see SOME drow turning to Deep Duerra.... it would be rare admittedly, but a female draw psychic warrior or fighter/psion or a soulknife or even a warrior with a wild talent might pursue this path. Others might turn to surface gods that fit their bent (for instance, if they're a warrior at heart, Tempus/Helm/Garagos/the Red Knight, spellcasters obviously the gods/goddesses of magic, Leira in particular may appeal to renegade drow, if they're a scholar, Oghma or Deneir or if a craftsman then Gond or again if they're willing to serve as something akin to a bounty hunter, Hoar the Doombringer, or a regular hunter, Malar, etc...).

You know, after watching Vikings, it might make for an interesting concept if some drow raid the surface, take some priests as slaves, and then after living with/working with the slaves they learn a level of respect for their deities and disrespect for their own. If said slaves were say priests of Ilmater and then "martyred" by priestesses of Lolth deciding that their message was sacreligious and killing them.... well, that's just interesting. Perhaps even something wherein the drow who takes a given Ilmaterian slave actually was in fear from the human at one point and used some kind of magical compulsion/geas type effect that tied her and the slave together, such that if one dies the other will as well (because he assumed the priest would kill him.... not realizing the nature of the religion.... or because she knew that the FRIENDS of the priest wouldn't want the priest dead and the FRIENDS were discussing killing the drow). Maybe such an effect will only last a year or somesuch, so to the drow, this is little time. Later she escapes, but in fear for her life drags the priest with him. While in the drow's homeland, maybe the priest cures a sick child and the drow's husband, etc... when Lolth's own priests refuse to do so. Such a convert to Ilmater may WANT to follow the tenets of Ilmater, but her upbringing may make her have problems with it. For instance, she may see slavery as still right "if the person doesn't follow my values", etc... such that keeping a bunch of goblins, kobolds, orcs, etc... as slaves is "perfectly acceptable since they are brutes who can't be converted". In this, I'm not saying that the person would become a priest of Ilmater or anything, but they may strive to follow the tenets of the religion as best they can grasp them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Sep 2019 15:04:42
Go to Top of Page

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1618 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2019 :  15:32:02  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also imagine that a common response to growing up in drow society and then leaving it, whether by choice or necessity, is an atavistic terror of religion, deities and divine power.

Denying the reality of 'gods' on Toril isn't rational, but I imagine that drow refugees are prone to regard deities as others do demons and devils. Terrifying inhuman creatures of vast power who play with and manipulate mortals for their own gain and pleasure and whose attentions it is best to avoid at all costs.

Sure, a few might be able to move past a lifetime of abuse at the hands of Lloth and those who wield power in her name, and honestly trust and revere another deity, but others will find it all but impossible to ever view the divine as anything but a horrible thing.

For male drow, especially, I imagine that Eilistraee and her priestesses are pretty hard to trust. Lloth can appear beautiful and desirable as well and it would certainly not be beyond her to manipulate mortals for years and decades by pretending to be other than she is.

After a lifetime of abuse at the hands of female priestesses and their deity, it would take a truly heroic effort (and blind trust) to ignore everything they have learned in life and not assume that Lloth's daughter is simply playing a long con in maneuvering against her mother, fighting for power, influence and followers, and actually cares just as little for her worshipers as Lloth.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2019 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000