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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Dalor Darden Posted - 15 Feb 2019 : 17:19:19
So I'm working on expanding the ideas of my Shields of the North campaign to include the Drow series of modules which come after the Giant Series, and I'm going to need to use Maerimydra for the Drow City.

I want to start sprinkling information (via NPC Drow) into the campaign ahead of time...but I have sparse information on the city:

quote:
Maerimydra

Population: 11 000 (cca 5000 Drow)
Noble Houses (7): Chûmavh(1) (leading house), T’sarran (2) (Kiaransalee), Wharreil (3) (archmage of Maerimydra), Ned’razak (4) (Achmage of Szith Morcane), Mar-Shinn (5) (wizard Szith Morcane)
Morcane (6) (Szith Morcane only – minor house), Dhuurniv (Shadowdale/Shadowdark only – minor house),

Maerimydra lies beneath the heart of the Dalelands, roughly 10 miles below the south-central border of Mistledale. No tunnels lead directly up from the city to Mistledale, but passages
run to Haptooth Hill in Battledale, the Underdark (Shadowdark) beneath Shadowdale, and the outpost of Szith Morcane in the Dagger Hills.

The cavern ceiling is 600 feet high at its highest point, over the boulevard between the Courtyard of Lolth and Castle Maerimydra.

Maerimydra’s fires would have fouled the cavern’s air to a lethal point long ago, but the city’s builders created a number of tiny, hidden portals to the Elemental Plane of Air in the upper reaches of the cavern. Fresh air enters above the noble palaces in the northwest corner, and a soft but noticeable breeze blows south and east, exiting through another array of tiny portals in the vicinity of the East Gate.

While the collapse of buildings has partially blocked an adjoining street with rubble in many places, most of Maerimydra’s streets are relatively clear. The typical street is 20 to 30 feet wide. Grand public staircases lead from one level to another at the spots marked on the map. Each is about 50 feet wide and
50 feet long, ascending or descending about 30 to 40 feet between the city’s various plateaus.

Szith Morcane
The drow settlement of Szith Morcane has lain beneath the Dordrien Crypts for centuries. Founded in 804 DR as an outpost of Maerimydra when that city also ruled Shadowdale,
Szith Morcane served as a supply station for drow operating on the surface and a staging point for occasional raids into Daggerdale. With the flight of the drow from Shadowdale, the
inhabitants of Szith Morcane lost interest in the surface world until the recent arrival of refugees from Maerimydra. Szith Morcane was built inside a complex of caverns, all of
which open out into a vast chasm that penetrates deep into the earth.A large chasm forms the basic structure of Szith Morcane. Six tunnels lead from the southeast side of the chasm wall into the caverns that house the drow outpost. From the floor, the chasm plunges to a depth of 600 feet before ending in a rushing torrent of black water.


Can anyone point me to resources that can help me expand on this?

Maerimydra as it existed during the "days of ye ol' Grey Box" is what I'm after. I play AD&D based on that box; and while information printed after is fine and good, I have no plans for the place to be obliterated or any such.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 01:42:32
Master Krashos,

It is awfully convenient that there Maerimydra is practically right under Myth Drannor and where House Maerdrym was?

Perhaps....some Realms drama is about to unfold?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There is no connection between House Maerdrym and the drow city of Maerimydra. Unless you want there to be.

— George Krashos

Dalor Darden Posted - 30 Nov 2019 : 19:10:03
Thanks much folks!
Wrigley Posted - 30 Nov 2019 : 11:53:34
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Which edition Underdark?


3ed sourcebook, mention only. It seems clear to me that given the closeness of Hap to Maerimydra there is a way to go there. As Maerimydra is in middledark and this is a surface exit I would say that will not be a direct way unless it was build by drow.

In my realms drow do not know about it currently and it is used by Cult of Dragon as a base.
There is also a dwarven village of Glen nearby (in Mistledale) that has access to underdark. Another access/exits are in Elven Court, Shadowdale, Daggerdale, Semberholme.
Dalor Darden Posted - 30 Nov 2019 : 06:59:23
Which edition Underdark?
George Krashos Posted - 30 Nov 2019 : 06:33:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Are there tunnels that connect Maerimydra to Haptooth Hill?

If so, where is this referenced?



There is a reference to this drow city having an outpost at Haptooth Hill in the "Underdark" sourcebook (p.160).

-- George Krashos
Dalor Darden Posted - 30 Nov 2019 : 01:36:48
Are there tunnels that connect Maerimydra to Haptooth Hill?

If so, where is this referenced?
Wrigley Posted - 27 Sep 2019 : 00:54:23
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There is no connection between House Maerdrym and the drow city of Maerimydra. Unless you want there to be.

— George Krashos


Thank you for confirming that :-) Now I am free to make it up if it fits. I like to know the original before I corrupt it.
George Krashos Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 22:20:07
There is no connection between House Maerdrym and the drow city of Maerimydra. Unless you want there to be.

— George Krashos
Wrigley Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 19:58:56
You could not just invent a family name and I do not think it is possible to officially use any surname you want. All important drow have already accepted surname/family name. In this case I have only checked if it is not aginst cannon as it was made up by me.

As we are already on subject of names and Maerimydra I am wondering for some time if there is any relation with Maedrym family of Myth Drannor ( https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maerdrym ). It seems to me too close a match to be only a incident...
TBeholder Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 16:16:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

By tradition, no House name begins with the same "L"
[...]
Right below it is a list of suggested surnames including Lhalabar and Luen. So house name could start with L but should not sound like Lloth in any way.

Or, it's not acceptable a noble House name, but granmothered in allowed for surnames in general?
Wrigley Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 12:38:00
Found it - Drow of the Underdark p.97
"Surnames
Drow last names are many and varied. Only those of noble blood, or commoners holding titled ranks (such as patron, weapons master, or herald) in a noble House, may use the name of their House as a surname. By tradition, no House name begins with the same "L" sound as the name of the Spider Queen, Lolth, and no drow bears the personal name of "Lolth" or any of its variants (Lloth, Loethe)-except a revealed avatar of the Goddess."

Right below it is a list of suggested surnames including Lhalabar and Luen. So house name could start with L but should not sound like Lloth in any way.
TBeholder Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 03:29:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Wasn't there a rule that the names of Drow houses don't start with "L"?


Do you know the source for this? I have never heard of it.

I don't remember, but FR wikia .fandom.com refers to The Drow of the Underdark by Ed
Wrigley Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 23:53:16
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

House Laelithar

Wasn't there a rule that the names of Drow houses don't start with "L"?


Do you know the source for this? I have never heard of it. This one is also made up by me so you can ignore it entirely.
TBeholder Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 05:01:37
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

I also imagine that a common response to growing up in drow society and then leaving it, whether by choice or necessity, is an atavistic terror of religion, deities and divine power.

Let's say, at least healthy respect. Not messing with them.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

House Laelithar

Wasn't there a rule that the names of Drow houses don't start with "L"?
Wrigley Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 13:09:55
I would also like to continue on topic of Maerimydra. In my realms city went through upheaval during Lloth's silence when rebelious parties tried to grab a power - mainly:
-archwizard Duneth Wharreil who allied with fire giants of Sudherham, trying to conquer city by force and refusing to help defend without lead by Priestesses (who were powerless).
-house Chumav who also witheld their forces from defese into their own citadel believing they can defeat giant army after they kill all their rivals.
-cult of Kieranselee in city that hoped to be able to kill all priestess of Lloth and bring themselves to the top with army of undead.
However heroes were able to help routing ghoul army before it grew too much and forcing wizards to participate by framing their support (they called in a group of Ice devils and paraded them through city claiming it is wizards help to city defense - something archwizard could not deny without loosing his status).(as you may have guessed my group plays not so good characters)

So city was mostly intact from the siege and also was not overwhelmed by undead. Therefore I had to create it as it was before.
Main change is that after this house Chûmav lost part of its power due to their machinations. City now do not have a leader and it is not clear who will win the favor of the goddess...

So lets start with them.
House Chûmav was for long time a leading house in city. Their domain of influence is military. They overseen most of military action outside of city as well as patrols and public guards in the city. They also controlled city arena where much of the martial training was done as well as maintaining games that further honed their soldiers skills. They still possess most skilled tacticians and generals. Beside that they also overseen trade with Zhentarim as main source of exotic import (which needs to be heavily guarded during transit). Exchange happens in outpost called Gwath in eastern Dragonspine mts.
Matron is said to change her lovers at whim. Unknown to the common drow her son Dresimil Chûmav is a Vhaerunite leader calling himself marques, he operates with house Jaelre in Elven Court. I have only mentioned two daughters Gaele and Talice with no detail so far.

House T'sarran is still most influential in matters divine and their matron Vlondril is also a archpriestess of Lloth. She is also very old and her firstborn Sabrae is ready to take her place. Matron is said to be close to her house wizard Istorvir. Sabrae have twin daughters Velasta and Velina who can speak telepathically to each other but are very silent otherwise (they were close to their aunt Irea ;-). Second is Irea who is actually a priestess of Kieranselee and left city many years ago to avoid being killed, she have daughter Dorina who became vampire and son Zedarr a banshee knight. She was replaced in the city by player character (posing as her) to cover this heresy. Third is son Durdyn a judicator of Selvetarm. Fourth is Alauniira who oversee a network of spies "for her mother". Fifth is Faeryl, she is accomplished fighter and leads house forces. She have a son Rizzen, whom she keep secret. Sixt and last is Laele who is still considered child.

House Laelithar is unique in that their matron renounced her entire house name "to stay neutral" and focuses on the business (mainly inside of city and with duergars). She also oversees training of her children as Streealinen (Streealin - messanger of death) whom she sells at extreme prices to anyone who can pay her. This training is kept only in her family so only her children and their progeny has ever be trained. She prefer to be called Black Widow and even propagate her story - She has no talent for priestly magic but she was able to kill all her siblings in Test of Loth finaly killing her own mother and claiming the house.

Those are the main players in city politics but there are lesser houses in the city that I know of:
-house Whareil owes its position to Duneth who became archwizard of Shattered Tower
-house Abaeir have some members in prominent standing in church of Lloth
-house Dhuurniv is now returned after its banishment after Shadowdale debacle (Spider's Truce with elves)
-house Morcane who operates outpost of Szith Morcane
-house Ned'razak - Solom is a archwizard of Inverted Tower in Szith Morcane
-Mar-Shinn - minor house in Szith Morcane
Wrigley Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 11:04:06
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Well, from reading novels and sourcebooks about drow society, it is considerably more violent, brutal, treacherous and vicious than any real criminal organizations and gangs, so the 'average' drow elf will be someone who has survived as a violent criminal and slave-holder for decades.

Even 'good' drow presented in novels have killed more people than they remember and usually not for any better reasons than improving their personal position in society.

Besides, even innocent people who spend decades in prisons, surrounded by violent criminals, often have difficulty integrating into normal society. Just existing in a violent, paranoid, status-driven society of fear and dominance, where the weak are victimized, is enough to skew a person for the rest of their lives.

Most drow grow up in a society that's worse than any prison and they survive by learning a mindset, demeanor and values that are incompatible with living in an actual society.

I'd argue that anyone who grows up in drow society (not the tiny minority of dark elves who grow up in Eilistraeean society, but actual, subterranean drow cities) would inevitably have committed a lot of crimes that in real life would cause most people to regard them with fear, anger and loathing.

Typical drow commoner jobs involve bossing slaves, torturing them to encourage others and murdering anyone who shows resistance. Drow society is very much a slave society, a lot more vicious and cruel than even the worst real world ones.*

Not to mention that drow birth rates are very high, but they rarely have large families of children who survive to adulthood. This is because drow apparently murder each other at a high enough rates for the average drow to be at least complicit in a murder or two and most likely personally guilty. Often of family members.

People in our world who spend a couple of years in a violent street gang and a few more years in prison usually come out of the experience profoundly changed and many never manage to integrate into normal society again. An adult drow has spent six decades or more living in a hyper-violent, fratricidal, treacherous environment.

Realistically, most of the ones who try to reject their birth society will still be deeply scarred by it and tend to frighten more well-adjusted, less violent people (like dark elves who've grown up among Eilistraeeans from childhood).

*Well, they are more vicious and cruel than the ones we usually think of, but they might be about par for several pre-contact Americas societies, where battle captives were ritually tortured and murdered.



I like your take on the society and the influence of others to your view of reality.

For me the alignment is fluid and changes through life depending on your choices (only planar beings are bound by their origin). However everyone have a certain core values that are hard to change even in such intensive surroundings as drow city. So there will invariably be some percent of good drow that merely adapt to society they live in but given chance they will take it.

As for the religion I have gods that rarely influence mortals directly. They are for most people only a archetype of morals they strife to archive. Only priests have any common connection to their god in regards to their behavior and choices. So common drow is tough how to please Lloth but if he personaly do not find it pleasing he will not be more than worshiper going daily to pray under the guidance of priestesses. This also means there will be some of different faiths in every drow city due to personal preference. They might not know the god's name due to censorship but they will still strife for certain moral path and given circumstances they might realize they venerate say Eilistrae.
Some gods take care to find such individuals and send them vision or sign that will lead them to understanding and proper worship as that is a main source of power for any god. Only lesser gods can micromanage as such, greater ones use their churches or planar servants for such work. Some even do not care enough.
This is also reason for Lloth to force her worship even from "nonbelievers" as it still pay :-)
Irennan Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 16:25:36
@Icelander True, but that's why Eilistraee&priestesses, at least in canon (and it is outright stated) value males, and treat them with appreciation and respect (unless you're in Smedman's world). Approaching a drow that has been scarred by both the abuses recieved from their deity, and (in the case of males) from women, is a process that starts not with proselitizing, but with luring the drow through their needs.

I mean, you can't communicate with a person if not from within their experience, but no Lolthite drow, especially no male Lolthite drow, has experience of being respected and valued as people, so it's impossible to change them by simply talking. It starts with providing them shelter, food, cures, etc... the stuff that they need to survive away from Lolth. In that time, it then becomes about showing them empathy, treating them with respect, and making them feel part of something great (so, tEilistraee's preistesses become an extensions of Eilistraee's own motherhood of the drow; they are tachers, guides, leaders who help the drow thriver in a hostile world). When they're made part of a community, when they feel that they're contributing to creating it, and feel appreciated for that, or when they're contributing to create something beautiful alongside others (be it a song, or cooking good food, or some piece of art), they've been given something that they never had. It's a process in which Eilistraee's focus on celebrating life and creating beauty is important, because the sheer, free joy that can be found in life, and in brotherhood/sisterhood, is essentially unknown to the Lolthite drow, but, according to Ed, many unconsciously long for it, so it's a further factor that kicks in after the need foir survival. It's also why Eilistraee constantly "sings" to all of them, as Ed says, to lure them towards all that they've been missing on in life.

So, the mere need for survival can be used to build an experience of empathy and of sense of belonging in the drow, and then *actually* communicate the message of Eilistraee (which they will be able to receive, because it'll be part of their experience), and lead them into a "journey" to see with their eyes what life can be about, and to find their path. Only after this experience is built, change can actually begin. Eilistraee and her followers can and do support the drow in this, but, according to the lore, the Moondancers try to never force a choice on them (Elaine shows this really well in how delicately Eilistraee acts towards Liriel, providing help (or simply confort) to empower her to make her choices, but never forcing anything). Heck, Eilistraee herself takes part in this process of building the experience of empathy for the drow, as she is known to provide help in everyday life matters, and confort and warmth when needed (through various manifestations, at times even personally. Or through the Evensong, an intimate ritual in which all her followers let out their emotions and doubts and burdens of the day in a worldess message for the goddess herself to listen, which reinforces the ideas that they matter as people--unlike Lolth makes them believe).

Now, ofc this is hard to enact, Eilistraee's priestessess are a varied sort, in that some can be more pushy, and in that converted priestesses might carry a lot of baggage from their former lives (and EC shows this well too, while still respecting the identity of Eilistraee's faith), etc... but that's the idea. That's the way all drow, even abused males, can be approached. That said, the fact that Eilistraeens are a matriarchy could be discouraging (even though Eilistraee fully opened her clergy to males in the 1490s, possibly reducing this, as preiests tend to be the leaders in their communities), but I honestly like that (both because when your iconic matriarchy is utter crap, having a foil is good for representation, and because I like the concept of a more motherly matriarchy, and I think it fits EIlistraee's character well for how Ed imagined her).

Icelander Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 15:32:02
I also imagine that a common response to growing up in drow society and then leaving it, whether by choice or necessity, is an atavistic terror of religion, deities and divine power.

Denying the reality of 'gods' on Toril isn't rational, but I imagine that drow refugees are prone to regard deities as others do demons and devils. Terrifying inhuman creatures of vast power who play with and manipulate mortals for their own gain and pleasure and whose attentions it is best to avoid at all costs.

Sure, a few might be able to move past a lifetime of abuse at the hands of Lloth and those who wield power in her name, and honestly trust and revere another deity, but others will find it all but impossible to ever view the divine as anything but a horrible thing.

For male drow, especially, I imagine that Eilistraee and her priestesses are pretty hard to trust. Lloth can appear beautiful and desirable as well and it would certainly not be beyond her to manipulate mortals for years and decades by pretending to be other than she is.

After a lifetime of abuse at the hands of female priestesses and their deity, it would take a truly heroic effort (and blind trust) to ignore everything they have learned in life and not assume that Lloth's daughter is simply playing a long con in maneuvering against her mother, fighting for power, influence and followers, and actually cares just as little for her worshipers as Lloth.
sleyvas Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 14:52:59
regarding Icelander's queries about about drow who don't want to follow Eilistraee, but who are also sick of religions like Lolth's, Vhaeraun's, Ghaunadaur's, etc....

I can see some of these drow possibly turning to the religions of their neighbors. If they are more lawfully biased and show any skill as a warrior (and especially if they show skill in psionics), I can see SOME drow turning to Deep Duerra.... it would be rare admittedly, but a female draw psychic warrior or fighter/psion or a soulknife or even a warrior with a wild talent might pursue this path. Others might turn to surface gods that fit their bent (for instance, if they're a warrior at heart, Tempus/Helm/Garagos/the Red Knight, spellcasters obviously the gods/goddesses of magic, Leira in particular may appeal to renegade drow, if they're a scholar, Oghma or Deneir or if a craftsman then Gond or again if they're willing to serve as something akin to a bounty hunter, Hoar the Doombringer, or a regular hunter, Malar, etc...).

You know, after watching Vikings, it might make for an interesting concept if some drow raid the surface, take some priests as slaves, and then after living with/working with the slaves they learn a level of respect for their deities and disrespect for their own. If said slaves were say priests of Ilmater and then "martyred" by priestesses of Lolth deciding that their message was sacreligious and killing them.... well, that's just interesting. Perhaps even something wherein the drow who takes a given Ilmaterian slave actually was in fear from the human at one point and used some kind of magical compulsion/geas type effect that tied her and the slave together, such that if one dies the other will as well (because he assumed the priest would kill him.... not realizing the nature of the religion.... or because she knew that the FRIENDS of the priest wouldn't want the priest dead and the FRIENDS were discussing killing the drow). Maybe such an effect will only last a year or somesuch, so to the drow, this is little time. Later she escapes, but in fear for her life drags the priest with him. While in the drow's homeland, maybe the priest cures a sick child and the drow's husband, etc... when Lolth's own priests refuse to do so. Such a convert to Ilmater may WANT to follow the tenets of Ilmater, but her upbringing may make her have problems with it. For instance, she may see slavery as still right "if the person doesn't follow my values", etc... such that keeping a bunch of goblins, kobolds, orcs, etc... as slaves is "perfectly acceptable since they are brutes who can't be converted". In this, I'm not saying that the person would become a priest of Ilmater or anything, but they may strive to follow the tenets of the religion as best they can grasp them.
ericlboyd Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 23:07:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.


refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistrae in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.



Sshamath is not under Sembia. It's under the western Heartlands. See DDGttU.

Also, you might want to look at the Underspires article in Dragon Magazine 267

--Eric
ericlboyd Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 22:56:46
Also Dragon #354, page 70. The article might be useful to your campaign.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.



After Eleint 23 in 1372 DR according to "Grand History of the Realms", p.153.

-- George Krashos

Eilserus Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 19:37:06
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.



Marquise Dresimil Chûmavh (ruling house of Maerimydra) was attempting to rebuild and harness an ancient drow mythal that went wild under Ravens Bluff, in a settlement called Tower Chûmavhraele. I didn't quite get meaning of her title, but all this info is found in the novel Prince of Ravens.

There is a duergar city Grunthorigard and the drow city Nar'Vheen under the Ravens Bluff area too. Sadly, I haven't been able to find a scrap of info on either of those places, aside from they were referenced in the old RPGA LC era.

There are supposedly around 40 known drow cities in Faerun, and one of Ed's novels mentions drow cities under the Dales area warring upon one another.
Irennan Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 17:01:04
Oh, sure, I'm not arguing that, and I'm not arguing that the recovery for converts is hard (or perhaps even not fully possible in certain cases). What I was saying is that, when you grow up in a "kill or die" environment, that goes to the point of stupidity, and which survives only because of plot armor (with edgy nonsense along the sides of "loving your child is weakness"), can you really talk about redemption? Most drow are victims of extreme abuse (from the people that should have loved them the most); they weren't given that much choice but to engage in the strife, because the alternative was death. In short, most commoners have it really bad, and certainly don't embrace the kind of life they're forced into--they're not happy with it, even if they take part in the cruelty of their society, and are scarred by it. They need to be taught life anew, a complete change of their perspective. And that can only be achieved by showing them empathy, alongside all the beauty that they've been missing on, and that a different path is actually possible (and it it is much happier and healthier--and can lead to a stronger society). I don't think this can even be compared to crime IRL, mostly because the situation of the drow is absurd (and not a shiny example of worldbuilding that makes sense, tbh). My other point was that Eilistraeen temples are not just devoted to redemption, but also to building an alternative society for the drow, one in which they can have an actual future, and to building bridges between the various races.

Re: novels, they tend to focus on converts, and on battles and flashy stuff, almost entirely neglecting the other activities of the Eilistraeens. Only EC actually tries to provide some insight into their efforts to help other people, and to build communities (while still adding nuance to them, as she takes in account that some Eilistraeens are converts, who are going to have problems changing their ways). Some novels, mostly Smedman's/Athans'--which have been ignored and then retconned as of 5e/Second Sundering--even give a mind-boggingly warped portrayal of Eilistraee&followers, to the point of directly contradicting the lore on important points (or sniping specific lines in sourcebooks, only to turn them upside down), and of just crapping all over what they stand for. Like when they said that males have no place among Eilistraeens, or that they mutilate males for watching the dances--when in canon males can and do participate in the various rites, and when, as a whole, the Eilistraeens welcome males like females. That--and many other gaffes (even failing at trivial matters, like describing certain rituals, which were instead randomly changed, and which meaning was warped despite its importance for the faith, like for the Evensong)--was simply false. The mistakes made for a portrayal of the good drow faith that was very similar to that of the Lolthites, as a whole, which doesn't make sense. Especially when, even after most of the original followers of the Dark Maiden were exterminated in the destruction of Miyeritar, after millennia, Eilistraeens--as a whole--are mostly made up of people who weren't born in a Lolthite society.
Icelander Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 16:35:27
Well, from reading novels and sourcebooks about drow society, it is considerably more violent, brutal, treacherous and vicious than any real criminal organizations and gangs, so the 'average' drow elf will be someone who has survived as a violent criminal and slave-holder for decades.

Even 'good' drow presented in novels have killed more people than they remember and usually not for any better reasons than improving their personal position in society.

Besides, even innocent people who spend decades in prisons, surrounded by violent criminals, often have difficulty integrating into normal society. Just existing in a violent, paranoid, status-driven society of fear and dominance, where the weak are victimized, is enough to skew a person for the rest of their lives.

Most drow grow up in a society that's worse than any prison and they survive by learning a mindset, demeanor and values that are incompatible with living in an actual society.

I'd argue that anyone who grows up in drow society (not the tiny minority of dark elves who grow up in Eilistraeean society, but actual, subterranean drow cities) would inevitably have committed a lot of crimes that in real life would cause most people to regard them with fear, anger and loathing.

Typical drow commoner jobs involve bossing slaves, torturing them to encourage others and murdering anyone who shows resistance. Drow society is very much a slave society, a lot more vicious and cruel than even the worst real world ones.*

Not to mention that drow birth rates are very high, but they rarely have large families of children who survive to adulthood. This is because drow apparently murder each other at a high enough rates for the average drow to be at least complicit in a murder or two and most likely personally guilty. Often of family members.

People in our world who spend a couple of years in a violent street gang and a few more years in prison usually come out of the experience profoundly changed and many never manage to integrate into normal society again. An adult drow has spent six decades or more living in a hyper-violent, fratricidal, treacherous environment.

Realistically, most of the ones who try to reject their birth society will still be deeply scarred by it and tend to frighten more well-adjusted, less violent people (like dark elves who've grown up among Eilistraeeans from childhood).

*Well, they are more vicious and cruel than the ones we usually think of, but they might be about par for several pre-contact Americas societies, where battle captives were ritually tortured and murdered.
Irennan Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 16:04:50
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistraee in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.


I'm assuming that many 'faithful' of Eilistraee will be fugitives and refugees from drow settlements who are prepared to profess religious dogma they may not fully accept or even understand because they have no other reasonable place to go.

It's not as if real world religious charities only help sincerely religious people and a drow outcast from their house or even city doesn't realistically have many places to go.

Temples of Eilistraee are analogous to real world churches and missions where refugee child soldiers are rehabilitated, socialized and helped to rebuild some semblance of normalcy, as well as charities where former gang members and criminals are given a chance at new lives.

One has to imagine that there are a lot more dark elves seeking their help than there are those who will ever become truly repentant worshipers of the Dark Maiden.

One adventure hook that I've been toying with is what happens to those dark elves who are disgusted with mainstream drow culture and reject both Lloth and Vhaeraun, but do not find any religious calling as servants of the Dark Dancer.

I imagine that it varies by the priestesses of each individual shrine or temple, but that at least some of them attempt to find such dark elves a path in life that won't lead them into the webs of Lloth again. If they are too damaged by the cruelties they've seen, lived and performed during their previous lives to be able to truly repent, at least they can find some kind of lives, with some kind of honor.

So one PC* has been asked to employ a few drow elves as his personal security, as his merchant house and mercenary company take part in hostilities in Unther. There, they can employ their undeniable talents for merciless killing in the service of a legal entity with (as far as the priestesses believe) an honorable culture and acceptable end goals.

'Reforming' a former Llothite assassin who killed indiscriminately as part of paranoid drow culture into a security professional indifferent to religion who kills only when his employer tells him to should count as a 'win' for the priestesses of Eilistraee.

After all, it would be unreasonable to expect a high percentage of people who've lived a callous, treacherous and cruel existence for decades to successfully reform themselves into genuinely good people, just because they found themselves at a place in life where they briefly decided they wanted to try.

I'm a defense attorney and I believe in redemption, second chances and forgiveness. I also believe that change is extremely hard and that most people are formed by their experiences, not a single decision to suddenly become someone else. So, for every success story, there will be dozens of dark elves who tried, but fell short.

A human merchant lord with a less than legal background and the lover of a priestess of Eilistraee.



Temples of Eilistraee are not only that, though. They are also communities, as many drow are also born on the surface and raised by Eilistraeens. So, there are a whole lot of drow seeking help, but it's inevitable that, after miellennia, a large part of Eilistraeens wouldn't be converts, but people born in that environment. In short, there's also the act of forming an alternative society, rather than just redemption.

Even for redemption, it's not always exactly that. The drow are victims of abuse, so it's also about giving them what they've been denied their whole lives, while providing an actual commnunity. (especially since a lot of drow don't have that much to redeem for. Your next commoner that bleeds and tries to go forward in life without dying, forced to participate in the constant strife and backstabbing, but that would likely escape if given the chance--and the help--needed to make it to the surface in one piece and to thrive there, is an example).

One aspect of Eilistraeen communities that is also often overlooked is the effort they put in reinserting the drow into mainstream society, so to speak, as in building relationships with other races. Charity, but also art is one of their main tools. Re: arts (mostly music and dance, but not onlòy) that's another important aspect of the faith, and a prominent element in temples, also because of how art is used by the Eilistraeens in showing the drow another path of life.

Re: drow who are not ready/willing to profess Eilistraee's faith, as Ed mentioned in one of his replies, while their communities are obviously devoted to Eilistraee, there's room for choices. Refugees who receive their help are not forced to convert (even if certainly encouraged). Most importantly, Eilistraeen communities are not made up just priest(esse)s, there are a lot of lay people. So, even those who don't find any call as servants of the Dark Maiden can still be part of them (even more so because not all those who live among Eilistraeens are drow, so there's even going to be the typical Faerunian polytheism, which is also present among the Eilistraeens--according to Ed, they worship her above others, but also pray to to other deities). As for actively reaching to such dark elves, Eilistraee has dedicated orders, whose members regularly go down to find drow who need their help (like the commoner I mentioned above), no matter if they don't want to convert (at the risk of infiltrating Lolthite settlements for this). The Dark Maiden herslef is known to reach and help all drow in practical ways, even if not her followers.
Icelander Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 15:29:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistraee in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.


I'm assuming that many 'faithful' of Eilistraee will be fugitives and refugees from drow settlements who are prepared to profess religious dogma they may not fully accept or even understand because they have no other reasonable place to go.

It's not as if real world religious charities only help sincerely religious people and a drow outcast from their house or even city doesn't realistically have many places to go.

Temples of Eilistraee are analogous to real world churches and missions where refugee child soldiers are rehabilitated, socialized and helped to rebuild some semblance of normalcy, as well as charities where former gang members and criminals are given a chance at new lives.

One has to imagine that there are a lot more dark elves seeking their help than there are those who will ever become truly repentant worshipers of the Dark Maiden.

One adventure hook that I've been toying with is what happens to those dark elves who are disgusted with mainstream drow culture and reject both Lloth and Vhaeraun, but do not find any religious calling as servants of the Dark Dancer.

I imagine that it varies by the priestesses of each individual shrine or temple, but that at least some of them attempt to find such dark elves a path in life that won't lead them into the webs of Lloth again. If they are too damaged by the cruelties they've seen, lived and performed during their previous lives to be able to truly repent, at least they can find some kind of lives, with some kind of honor.

So one PC* has been asked to employ a few drow elves as his personal security, as his merchant house and mercenary company take part in hostilities in Unther. There, they can employ their undeniable talents for merciless killing in the service of a legal entity with (as far as the priestesses believe) an honorable culture and acceptable end goals.

'Reforming' a former Llothite assassin who killed indiscriminately as part of paranoid drow culture into a security professional indifferent to religion who kills only when his employer tells him to should count as a 'win' for the priestesses of Eilistraee.

After all, it would be unreasonable to expect a high percentage of people who've lived a callous, treacherous and cruel existence for decades to successfully reform themselves into genuinely good people, just because they found themselves at a place in life where they briefly decided they wanted to try.

I'm a defense attorney and I believe in redemption, second chances and forgiveness. I also believe that change is extremely hard and that most people are formed by their experiences, not a single decision to suddenly become someone else. So, for every success story, there will be dozens of dark elves who tried, but fell short.

A human merchant lord with a less than legal background and the lover of a priestess of Eilistraee.
Irennan Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 15:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The city was the subject of a 5E Adventurer's League adventure (one of the better one's IMO) associated with Out of the Abyss story. You can find it on DM's Guild.



Yeah, but it was more about what remains of the city. Even though, apparently, it has been rebuilt and now The Hidden, some Lolthites, a band of Eilistraeens, and some illithids are rebuilding it, alongisde groups belonging to each AL factions?
Wrigley Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 14:58:13
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.


refugees could certainly came from Maerimydra. Also I have a small temple of Eilistrae in Velarswood. Another closest drow city is Ssamath under Sembia and Sschindylryn under Cormyr. Sulasspryn is too small to have any Eilistrae.
George Krashos Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 02:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.



After Eleint 23 in 1372 DR according to "Grand History of the Realms", p.153.

-- George Krashos
Icelander Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 01:46:37
Does anyone have specific dates for the destruction of Maerimydra?

I've got a campaign set in the Vast in the spring of 1373 DR and the PCs have a friendly relationship with some dark elven worshippers of Eilistrae. I'm wondering if refugees from Maerimydra might make up some of their numbers.

Also, if various drow elves noted in historical background might have originally come from there or if there are other, closer drow cities.

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