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Clutches at Greatness
Seeker

Germany
25 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2018 :  02:49:11  Show Profile Send Clutches at Greatness a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
What is the official timeline of Realmspace/Faerun/AbeirToril?

Are the Obyrith and the Dawn War between Gods and Primordial still canon?
How do the Dawn War and the War of Light and Darkness between Selune and Shar relate to each other?

What did Ao actually create, the Multiverse, the Universe, Realmspace, Faerun, AbeirToril?

Did he create the Limbo, the Elemental Chaos, The Astral Sea? The Far Realm?

Did the Aboleth(s) create any of that? Or the Kuo-Toa? Did the Kuo-Toa create Ao?

I'll be right back, after I caught that piece of string

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2018 :  03:07:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ao created Realmspace -- the world and its solar system. The other planes already existed at that time, or so I would imagine -- everything that has come to the Realms from elsewhere, including a fair number of its deities, had to come from somewhere.

The War of Light and Darkness predated pretty much everything else, including the Dawn War.

I don't know of anything created by the kuo-toa; certainly not Ao. And while I'm weak on my 4E lore (because so much of it was either retcons or built on retcons), I'm not aware of anything significant the aboleths have done, though I'm sure someone will correct me on that, if needs be.

Honestly, I think aboleths exist in D&D just to have something Cthulhu-esque without opening calling out its origins -- they're not a direct rip-off like mind flayers are, but they are pretty alien compared to so much else. A lot of the oldest D&D critters are pretty blatantly lifted from mythology and legends, but then you've got some real weirdos, like the aboleths.

I think that connecting aboleths to the Far Realm (itself a late-comer to the game, and also clearly inspired by Lovecraft) comes from the fact that they are just so alien that it's hard to otherwise explain them.

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Clutches at Greatness
Seeker

Germany
25 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2018 :  05:33:20  Show Profile Send Clutches at Greatness a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, atm I am desperately trying to fit the blurp from the Monster Manual Aboleth into the timeline.
"Before the coming of the gods,...aboleths seized control of the life-forms of the mortal realms...Then the true gods appeared, smashing the aboleths and freeing their slaves"

I don't understand when exactly the aboleth ruled, and what the gods did to them

I thought I tracked it down to the Batrachi Kolophoon Sovereignty, but according to "Candlekeep Kompendium 3, Mysteries of the Creator Races, the Batrachi" this guys did not rule the entire world, they were not Aboleth, but (at that time) tako, and they apparently weren't ruled by Aboleths either, they just called some of them (the Xxiphu part) in as Allies, plus they were destroyed by the Elven cataclysm, not by any gods, so pretty much nothing fits here.

I also don't understand the relationship between the Xxiphu far realm aboleths and the Toril aboleths. Sure, nowadays they disagree in their plans, but then I read somewhere (?) that the Toril aboleths are descendants of the Xxiphu guys, who seem to have their first appearance when summouned by the Tako. Which would also exclude any Abolethic rule BEFORE the Batrachi.

Does that "Coming of the Gods" have a specific meaning?

I am also curious about relationships between the Aboleths and the Obyrith. My interest was piqued by a short blurp in "Stormwrack", which stated that the Briny Sea under Demogorgons 88th Layer of the Abyss was inhabited by "Aboleths, Ixichatan(? -the vampiric mantas) and Kraken.
That sea is also the border to Dagons layer, which houses not further specified "aquatic monsters"

And yeah, the thing about Obyrith and Aboleths is, they somehow seem to both fit the same literary niche - unexplicable Alien things from a strange outside place, that are heavily inspired by Lovecraft.

Oh, btw, already pretty confused and hearing about massive changes and retconning of stories I listened to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtyKPY-2lT0
which is definitely entertaining, but probably confused me even more. Thats also where the Kuo-Toa stuff comes from

I'll be right back, after I caught that piece of string

Edited by - Clutches at Greatness on 07 May 2018 05:51:34
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2018 :  06:57:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "official" Realmslore canon has been changed in every (A)D&D game edition. So the answer can depend on which (A)D&D game edition is being asked about.

And the "official" WotC opinion is that, wherever there is conflict, new published canon always supersedes old published canon. So basically anything described in your preferred-edition of D&D/Realms sourcebooks is "official" canon, although you can refer to earlier-edition stuff which hasn't been updated.

I'm guessing (from the terms and contexts) that these questions are based on 4E lore ... in which case I have no answers since I refuse to move beyond 2E and 3E and I care little about adhering to WotC's ideas about "canon" in my Realms, lol.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 May 2018 07:00:16
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Clutches at Greatness
Seeker

Germany
25 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2018 :  07:38:39  Show Profile Send Clutches at Greatness a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I for one am curious about what WoTC's ideas about canon in the 5th edition are. I am sort of also curious about what are still holes to be filled in 5th edition, and what amount of old materials will/can be used to plug those holes.

I'll be right back, after I caught that piece of string
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2018 :  16:58:25  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
''before the coming of the gods'' means before mortal belief in gods began, not before Selune/Shar existed
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2018 :  17:15:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Officially, timeline wise, we only know the history of realmspace from the Days of Thunder forward, with some hints that there was a prior time of darkness (called the Shadow Epoch), and prior to that there was a sun that was "destroyed" (what exactly destroyed means can cause a LOT of debate). So, basically, we have information on say the last roughly 37,000 years. However, how many shadow epochs have their been in the past? How many suns have arisen and been destroyed BEFORE the shadow epoch? Have any other worlds in realmspace previously supported large populations and simply no longer do? If your interest is in aboleths maybe their rise and fall wasn't even on Toril. Both the planets of Karpri and Chandos are water worlds. Karpri has telepathic dolphins, giant insects, and giant plants, as well as lots of fish. It also has the beholder aberrations known as "Eyes of the Deep". Chandos is a larger world, but it possesses intelligent fish "with tendrils" that can "cast spells when in danger"

For a comparison of planetary sizes, Karpri is smaller than Toril and comparable to the size of Selune (though Selune may be on the low end and Karpri on the high end, which could make one 64 times bigger than the other mind you). Chandos on the other hand is larger than Toril (by how much? Unknown... so this size difference could be either miniscule or massive)

Toril is size E
Selune is size D
Karpri is size D
Chandos is size F


Size classes give information about the diameter of a celestial body:
Size A - Less than 10 miles in diameter
Size B - 10-100 miles in diameter
Size C - 100-1,000 miles in diameter
Size D - 1,000-4,000 miles in diameter
Size E - 4,000-10,000 miles in diameter
Size F - 10,000-40,000 miles in diameter
Size G - 40,000-100,000 miles in diameter
Size H - 100,000-1,000,000 miles in diameter
Size I - 1,000,000-10,000,000 miles in diameter
Size J - More than 10,000,000 miles in diameter

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1655 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2018 :  01:57:05  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Ao created Realmspace -- the world and its solar system. The other planes already existed at that time, or so I would imagine -- everything that has come to the Realms from elsewhere, including a fair number of its deities, had to come from somewhere.

Then there are also Maztica and Fate. Who may be other faces of Ao, or partners in creating stuff.
And more actively present Ubtao.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 09 May 2018 01:59:15
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2018 :  20:04:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 4e lore is not that hard to understand, really. Pretty much is this: after Abeir was confirmed to be real, some guys at Candlekeep began to study the legends and myths of Laerakond (Returned Abeir) and cross-referenced that with some Sarrukh stuff, learning about the Dawn War (a canon event that happened in many worlds and is still canon in 5e as per the SCAG).

The Dawn War provides an alternate ending to the Netherese myth of the War of Light and Darkness in which Shar and Selune deemed more important to save Realmspace than to kill each other and made a temporal truce to help the gods of other worlds during the war with the Primordials. The Dawn War doesn't contradict any previous lore, just adds new stuff. Realmspace is still created by Ao, Shar and Selune, and that stuff. Primordials are just consecuences of creation in The Realms.

Now, kuo-toas created nothing in 4e. That is 5e stuff. I know people here really hates 4e, but not every thing you consider a bad idea comes from it. For instance, the Aboleth stuff is from 3e (Lords of Madness, a book I don't have, so cannot help with that).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 May 2018 20:07:07
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