Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 When did Orcs come to Faerun
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  18:22:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's what I am picturing (roughly).

                                         Fey
                                        /    |
                                       /      | 
                                  Alfar      (Dokalfar)
                               (Entropy enters Universe)         
                                /   |           /    |               
                               /     |         /      |           
                       Eladrin     Elves   Ondonti   Hobgoblins 覧覧覧覧覧 Dragons                           
                        (Shee)   (Sylvan)     |      /  |    |        |   
                      /   |        /  |     Orcs    /    |  Various   |  
                     /     |      /    |           /      |           |        
               LeShay   Feyri  Green  Dark    Bugbear   Goblins     Kobolds
                               (Wood)   |
                                        |
                                       Drow

Apparently, this site does not like the backslash.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 18:38:56
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2020 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  21:04:59  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't get the Shee thing. Also, weren't fey-ri elf/demons?
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3193 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  22:17:03  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

According to the GHotR, The Fey left Toril just prior to the Sundering. I think there is something in ZeromaruX's 4e notes about Corellon having warned them (which is why I brought Auraushnee in on it in my homebrew lore, because destiny/fate was HER thing). They went to the Feywild (which I believe was something else originally, but thats just more homebrew).-likely the Godswar). Regardles, while IN the Feywild (and after they left Toril and their homeland of Ladinion behind), something occurred that made a 'lesser' branch of fey called the elves.

-The Fey Creator Race were natives of the Plane of Faerie, based on the limited information that we have.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faern
Vol I- The Elves of Faern
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  04:03:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not according to the Grand History of the Realms. It specifically avoids saying just that. Are we gonna have that old argument again? The absence of proof is not proof itself? YOU taught me that.

The only thing the GHotR says is that the fey lived in and ruled Faerie in -34,000 DR. That does not mean they couldn't have moved there form somewhere else in -34,001 DR.

And we have other canon - from Monster mythology that states the fey once came from a realm called ladinion, but they forced out from there because of the Queen of Air and Darkness.

Who we now know is Auril. And Auril lives in the Forgotten Realms. And as far as we know, she's never lived (or been worshiped) anywhere else. (but now you can use the same argument I did - that does not mean she couldn't have come from somewhere else. The logical conclusion here is that Ladinion was somewhere on Abeir-Toril, but that doesn't make it so).

Regardless, the precise wording of the text in the GHotR - they way they purposely avoiding using 'came from', native, etc - just seems to me the designers wanted that part left open. They did that a lot in 4e - left it up to individual DMs.

And here's the kicker - I DON'T think they came from Abeir-Toril at all. I think they came from a place that is currently part of Toril, but used to be part of something else. Just like I think they are from somewhere else - the First World. I think ALL the Creator Races started there, and when the Lattice of Heaven was shattered, the multiverse (Crystal Spheres) were created; it was a 'new universe' at that point. That makes any physical point-of-reference from the 'Time Before Time' meaningless, because it becomes Shrodinger's Cat: it is both true and not true at the same time. So if you were to quantify your statement and say, "are the fey native to the Feywild in this universe?", then I would have to agree with you and answer, "yes". But they existed before this universe did, which means probably before the Feywild existed.

In fact, I am just checking XeromaruX's most excellent History of the Nentir Vale (which I highly recommend you get your hands on - the whole first half is just the history of the D&Dverse itself, and its all 100% canon, footnoted and sourced). In that, it mentions the Feywild THREE TIMES before the entry wherein Corellon discovers it. It mentions Fomorians being there FIRST (seems I was right), but it does go on to say Corellon and others discovered it before the Fomorians "held dominion over the plane", which tells me the Fomorians owned the place FIRST (as it was in Irish folklore). hmmmm... now this is weird. Then it goes on to say the place was full of 'primal spirits', and over time, those spirits coalesced into the fey (archfey happening first, which I also find a little backwards). Apparently, NO-ONE created the fey (elves) - they 'just happened', and every early on, too. That not only goes against lots of prior canon, but it totally puts the Kaboosh on some of my own theories. This makes the fey very much like fiends and their planes.

So rule '0' in 5e D&D - ignore whatever 4e lore you want, because Ao hit 'reset'.

{Dammit, I argued myself into a corner again}

Moving further into the work (and even he has to admit 4e contradicts itself, a LOT, but in a weird way that's a good ting, because we can cherry-pick what works), I find this -
quote:
Corellon discovered the Feywild. The most widely accepted story claims that elves (the name of this unified elven race is contested, though eladrin claim to be the original race from which both elves and drow split) arose from the tears Corellon wept from sorrow, beauty, and mirth during the days before Lolth痴 fall, when he lived in perfect harmony with her and her sister Sehanine. From sorrow痴 tears rose the dark elves, from beauty痴 the eladrin (high elves), and from mirth the wood elves. The first elves lived in perfect harmony, honoring their maker and the Seldarine (the 吐ellowship of brothers and sisters of the wood, the fey gods) as was their due. (DR361, p.8; Dr.394, p.34)


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 04:05:11
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  04:11:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats a pretty porr definition of 'Seldarine', because a lot of things don't have 'woods' and are still consider nature-sites, like arctic regions, deserts, OCEANS, etc. Poor Sashelas - he was always an outsider (which is why I don't think he was a Seldarine at all - I actually think he was a primordial who allied with them).

i need to make an extended list of Elven deities, including the ones formt he dragon articles, AND all the archfey 9which willmake it quite an extensive list). I don't think the Seldarine started out so much a 'pantheon' (because why would that even be a thing, before mortals were around?), as it was a very private and exclusive club run by Corellon. Geeze, no wonder elves are elitist snobs, and no wonder why gruumsh wanted to punch him in the nose: "sorry Gruumsh, no shoes, no admittance. And get a damn tie, will ya? I don't care if you ARE my brother!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 04:11:23
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  04:18:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Don't get the Shee thing. Also, weren't fey-ri elf/demons?

Yeah, i couldn't really get everything I wanted to, because there was a lot of mixing - i just wanted to show what groups split off of what (so feyri were from Fey - Eladrin, not common, 'garden variety' elves).

'Shee' is a holdover form an earlier version - my bad. I had Sidhe (all fey), Shee (Seelie), and Sith (Unseelie), which were all lifted from the The Shadowrift, which is one of the best damn RL products around. I decided that nomenclature didn't really fit what I was doing, so I got rid of it (but accidental left that one) Eladrin and Shee would both mean the same thing, except that some Eladrin can be Sith... so you can see why I ditched it). Apologies.

And all three are pronounced exactly the same, and sound the same to the human ear, which makes it very confusing to non-Fey. When Fey speak to one another, there is a sub-level of empathy going on, almost like low-frequency, that becomes part of their language - it gives their words the descriptors other langauges need (like adverbs and adjectives). Thus, when a Fey says 'Shee' (thats how it is pronounced), another fey knows precisely what branch they are talking about.

By the same token, 'leShay' are not really another ethnicity, either. Its just a 'leveled up' fey (archfey, usually). As I said, i just wanted to show what came from what, in what order (and add the orcs in there to get it all straight).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 17:59:58
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  15:56:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

snip Eladrin can be Sith... snip



Darth Ashemmi?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jan 2018 16:09:07
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  16:25:47  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey wooly, you should have put this above it " insert imperial march"

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6684 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  17:12:45  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elves are all Sith? That does help explain the elven racial affinity for longswords.

Daemonfey have one fey or daemonfey or fey'ri parent along with one fiend parent, or two daemonfey parents ... but they are always at least half-blooded fiends (like "cambions" or "alu-demons" in AD&D).
Fey'ri have fey, daemonfey, or fey'ri parents ... but they are always at least half-blooded fey, sometimes "barely tainted" by diluted but potent fiend blood (like "tieflings" in AD&D).

"Fey" specifically means sun elves from Arcorar ("The Great King Forest", basically Cormanthyr and surrounding areas circa -5000DR) in the Realms.
"Fiend" specifically means succubi/incubi (one demon/tanar'ri species in AD&D) for most of the population. But a minority are other fiend species (other demons/tanar'ri, possibly daemons/yugoloths).
"Fey" and "Fiend" could technically be other species which fit the template, but in Realms canon there's only one group and they're all descended primarily from sun elves and succubi/incubi.

"Daemonfey" also has different contexts: it can refer to the general species (of daemonfey and fey'ri, along with their fiend-blooded relations, consorts, or allies), or specifically to those of "pure" daemonfey (not "impure" fey'ri) descent, or to those with the "royal/demonic blood" of House Dlardrageth, or to House Dlardrageth itself.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  18:37:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just now realized I had left 'Orcs' off that damn chart, which was the whole reason I made the chart! They had gotten lost in all the revisions I did (and if you ever tried to get 'coding' right on this site, you'll know how hard that thing was to do). Common-sense should have dictated that they were just Ondonti (Fey that refused to live by anyone's rules, or 'Unseelie') that had become corrupted over-time, but I added the to the chart to avoid confusion. I could start a whole 'nother with just Ondonti at the top, branching-off into all the different types of Orcs and goblinoids, but there is not point in that - the chart now shows a very basic idea of what I am picturing (I added the Orcs).

Basically, Fey are 'born of the feywild' (one 4e creation thingy), but then split along the axis of 'chaotic, but with rules', and 'NO RULES'. Seelie, and Unseelie. Unseelie never meant to be bad/evil, it just works out that way a lot (its a 'capricious' vs 'malicious' thing). I picture the original Unseelie Elves being ones that didn't care about classic, aesthetic beauty, but went for a more 'natural' approach to life. That's why modern Ondonti would be the closest thing to those ancient fey. However, life kicked them around an awful lot (I figure the whole thing with the "who's land is who's" occurred post-Godswar, and Corellon purposely forgot to invite Gruumsh to the party), and now they are bitter, and like all True fey, their outward appearance began to reflect their inner character. In other words, they got uglier, because their personalities got uglier (Ondonti look more 'unfinished' than ugly, because they simply don't care about that sort of stuff).

So in other words, Elves (and most fey) are beautiful because they are very superficial. It may not have started out that way, but both branches - Elf & Orc - have gone to the extremes with their philosophies. This isn't an individualistic thing, BTW. Its a group thing. It was by the individual when they were all True fey (living in faerie), but thats no longer the case. It takes generations for the changes to occur now, without divine intervention; see the Sea Elves for a MAJOR exception to that rule. They're proof that elves are Fey, and like all fey, can change their form. Most fey have just become 'locked' because they don't have access to the energies of the feywild. So I guess what some of these gods have given their followers (and I would now include Lolth in this, when she 'blessed' her children) is really 'Fey(wild) energy'. Somehow, it allows them to adapt quickly to a situation, on an individual basis. Hmmmmmmmm.....

Time for some new musings: WHAT IF... 'Fey energy' as I just called it was really just time itself? Its temporal energy. Since fey are techncially immortal (even Elves can choose to live beyond their lifespans), their Gods just add more 'time' to them, because things take longer now that the First World is destroyed. The feywild is actually a bit of that First World that is leftover - its one of the few places that hasn't changed since the beginning. It still retains its 'timelessness'. Thus, you apply time to something, and the Fey shift into a new form (I am starting to think everything about the fey is related to time - I've said around these halls often enough how I think Elven High Magic is nothing more than powerful wish-type magic (Divine) applied to the Butterfly Effect. Going one step further, 'temporal Energy' might just be how raw magic manifests within the feywild. Whereas raw magic = positive energy {Life} in the Prime material, its Time in Faerie. And since I connect Life Energy (Mana) to the Gaea (and negative/Necrotic energy to the Ymir), then using my Overcosmolgy template, each different Supernal (Dimensions) manifest raw magic in a different way, dependent upon their nature. Some other things are starting to coalesce, but this isn't the right thread. I'm getting into the 'Guts' of D&D/magic/the universe now.

And YEAH, if you haven't read-through The Shadowrift, do yourselves a favor and do so. Its excellent. The closest thing we ever got to any real fairy-lore pre-4e. It may not be FR canon, but its still has tons of great concepts that can be applied anywhere (and the Sith look like vampires - pale, majestic, powerful, and very much 'goth' LOL). So if you run into an evil (Unseelie) Archfey in the feywild, then yeah, thats a Sith. In all senses of the word.

'The Force' is just a high-level psionic path that enables you to access Raw Magic and manipulate the universe (Raw Magic = 'Ultimate Potentiality' - its basically the energy of GOD itself... who no longer exists... sort of). Thats what Wish Magic is - the Dgen are just leftover 'foremen' from the time when the first world was being constructed, and they still have the power to draw from that source and create whatever they want - Ultimate Potentiality. Thus, a force-user it just someone who has trained their mind enough to access some of what a genie does naturally. Warp reality. Its just not nearly as powerful (although, it did get Anakin's mom pregnant... or so she claims...). Hmmmmm... metaclorines as particles of Raw Magic? Now you guys have me thinking in SW terms, and I HATE SW.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 18:41:43
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  19:01:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the third paragraph above I started to address 'individual vs group' philosophies, but then I got side-tracked (what a surprise). This touches upon the whole 'Unimind' concept I used to play around with a lot (I still use it, its just in the background more now) - the idea that groups form a 'collective consciousness', and out of that consciousness, manifestations of their beliefs can be made material (so basically, my whole theory concerning 'Dogma').

So as a group, Eladrin (our old Gold/Silver Elves) are superficial, but as individuals, that can be any part of the spectrum. Same goes for Orcs, or anyone else for that matter. Elves look 'pretty' because their race likes pretty things. Orcs are all about primal rage, and their visages express that; however, an individual Orc may be raised in high society - wear a monocle and tophat, and be right fine gentleman - but he'd still look like a scary monster. Thats part of the 'group thing'. They can only change as individuals (basically, re-writing their cultural DNA) if they get Divine help. And BTW, its really not different from RW DNA science... unless you can tell me what mechanism is it that makes a group of fish decide to grow legs and go for a walk? 'Evolution' is just a made-up word - you may as well say, "Its magic!", because it amounts to the same damn thing. Renaming something you don't understand doesn't make it something else - it just tricks people into thinking you are smart.

ANYHOW... Individuals are individuals, and do not have to conform to their cultural definitions of things. An elf can enjoy ugly things (I am sure more than one has found Picasso... talented). Just as an orc can gain an appreciation for fine art ("I believe Van Gogh's Sunflowers are the epitome of superd interpretation and a delightful use of color"). What I did here is try to explain cultural alignments, which aren't so much of 'a thing' anymore in D&D, but they are still very much there, under the surface.

EDIT:
And as for how my last two posts pertain to the topic - I think very much so. "Where we come from" is as much about psychology as it is about a physical location. Nature & Nurture go hand-in-hand.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 19:10:50
Go to Top of Page

WillyLos
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2018 :  14:35:50  Show Profile Send WillyLos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay, is this usually how it works? The thing with leShay and fey. Or do other species become different when they 'level up'?
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3193 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2018 :  21:11:04  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not according to the Grand History of the Realms. It specifically avoids saying just that. Are we gonna have that old argument again? The absence of proof is not proof itself? YOU taught me that.

-The Sarifal article implied and all but outright stated that the leShay are the Fey Creator Race, and the leShay are native to the Plane of Faerie.

-That said, even if you thought that the leShay are not the Fey Creator Race (and I'm very iffy about that, since I don't really like the race), nothing in any source to my knowledge says that the Fey Creator Race (whoever they were) was native to Toril, and then left to go elsewhere.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faern
Vol I- The Elves of Faern
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 Jan 2018 21:18:34
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2018 :  00:47:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all lore can be taken at face value anymore, because of all the continuity changes. i agree with you that the LeShay are Archfey (powerful Fey), and that they came form fairy. It doesn't mean they were always in the Feywild, and in fact, I have found lore stating that the Fomorians controlled the feywild before the Fey did, so that predates the (setting-specific) entry in the GHotR.

But its a little more complicated than that, and I think I have it all figured out (and what I mean by that is, a way in which ALL the lore can remain consistent). It has to do with time, and changes. After all, you can't say humans were on the Earth 50,000 years ago. There may have been something that looked sort of similar to us, but those weren't humans. And yet, all humans came from Earth (or so the lying Gov't tells us LOL). I think the proto-fey originated in the feywild, and those were more like Will-O-Whisps, and then Corellon (and perhaps others) shaped them into the Fey... which are MUCH more than just Eladrin and Elves. Those are just two offshoots of one particular type. The smaller fey never left, so they've always been fey. Its the big ones that keep confusing everyone with their terminology (I picture 4e Gold and Silvers Elves saying, "I no longer identify as an Elf... I'm an Eladrin now").

So, because we have two very different types of fey (actually, hundreds, but I'm just placing them all into two umbrella-categories) - the tall fey (Elves), and the small ones (all the rest) - we can apply certain lore to one group or the other, or both. In fact, I am starting to wonder why the fey are even considered a creator race, since they don't seem to have had any part in making all the rest.

quote:
Originally posted by WillyLos

Markustay, is this usually how it works? The thing with leShay and fey. Or do other species become different when they 'level up'?

In 4e they did - they had that weird tier system. Not sure if its carried over to 5e, in any way.

I believe dragonborn were able to 'grow wings' at tier 3, so there you go. Not that actually makes them another race, but neither are the LeShay.

LeShay were something that got written up in 3e, before we had 'fey' (well, we always had them, they just never discussed them in detail before). So the 'High' (Gold & Silver) elves became Eladrin, and eladrin is just a fancy word for the tall, majestic fey ('trooping fairies' in folklore). So now we have actual fey, and we still have that old lore about the LeShay, except that the LeShay are written up as VERY high level (they were in the epic book, no?), so the general consensus is that those LeShay were really very high-level Eladrin all along... we just didn't know it back then (because we didn't even have the word 'Eladrin'). In fact, now we have 'archfey', so the LeShay just get rolled into that. They're not something different, its just a different name for the same thing.

Perhaps we can retool-it to mean an 'archfey' who is a 'loner'. Normally when we say archfey we mean a member of the Fairy Court nobility, and 'LeShay' would be someone of the same power level, but has no part in structured fairy society. There you go.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2018 00:50:06
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3193 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2018 :  23:53:48  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-The only thing I don't like with that is the concept of unformed, "proto-fey". Just like Elementals are manifestations of their respective elements that just kind of manifest, Demons manifestations of the chaotic and evil Abyss that just kind of manifest, Devils manifestations of the lawful and evil Hells that just kind of manifest, and so on, I consider Fey creatures manifestations of the Plane of Faerie that just kind of manifest. A Plane of Faerie flower opens, and out pops a fairy. A Plane of Faerie brook bubbles, and out pops a nixie. A Plane of Faerie grove is very mystical, and there's an Ent that just has always been there. That's only my two cents about it, obviously.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faern
Vol I- The Elves of Faern
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2018 :  01:59:48  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you know, there could be more than one fey creator race not just the le-shay

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2018 :  02:50:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The only thing I don't like with that is the concept of unformed, "proto-fey". Just like Elementals are manifestations of their respective elements that just kind of manifest, Demons manifestations of the chaotic and evil Abyss that just kind of manifest, Devils manifestations of the lawful and evil Hells that just kind of manifest, and so on, I consider Fey creatures manifestations of the Plane of Faerie that just kind of manifest. A Plane of Faerie flower opens, and out pops a fairy. A Plane of Faerie brook bubbles, and out pops a nixie. A Plane of Faerie grove is very mystical, and there's an Ent that just has always been there. That's only my two cents about it, obviously.
Well, i sort of cover that with some of the mythos I wrote up int eh Maztica Alive! thread. basically, the Wilderlands (the original name of the feywild, before the Fey took it over) throw-off Will-O-wisps, in much the manner you just described. That's like the plane's 'soul stuff'. then it all it takes is a god, or some other powerful being (possibly even an archmage) to put some flesh around that and get and elf/eladrin. However, just like those other planes you mentioned, if left to its own devices, the proto-Fey (will-O-wisp) will eventually 'level up' and go to its evolved form - that of a sprite, or Duende (brownie)... unless a brownie is the evolved form of a sprite. that would make a brownie a 'second evolver' . LOL (and NO, I have never seen or played any Pokemon - I just have four sons).
Sidhe/LeShay just take an extra little something to make them into what they are, and that happened a long time ago, and now they just procreate in the usual fashion (although I still say True Fey can't breed anymore - the immortal ones are the last of their kind). Things like 'Cetaurs' are 'specials', as probably are Treants. Maybe Treants are where the souls of fallen elves go. Actually, treants might be some form of 'fairy elemental' (some mythos have an element of 'Wood'). The improved treants - whatever those things were called - those might be archfey. Perhaps that's a form they take when they get really old but don't want to die (although I did say they can't die, but they still age, and being a tree will stop that)?

And I think centaurs are a the hybrid form of a Chevall, that has gotten 'stuck' post Dawn War. A group of elves learned how to become horses(and centaur as a hybrid form) for the defense of elven lands (fey woods, etc), in much the same way lythari become wolves. Only they've completely lost the ability to change, having been away from the Feywild so long (in the Feywild, they should still be Chevall).

Actually, just use what I use - ALL fey may take one animal form, as a natural ability, as often as the want. The animal is normally hereditary, but not necessarily. Other animal forms can be added with the use of racial feats. Thus, a chevall is just an elf with the horse form. Its a little different than prior lore, but so what. Maybe the hybrid form should be a feat as well (so you can automatically become a horse, but to become a centaur you'd need a racial feat). I'd probably apply the same to Lythari, who also don't usually have a hybrid form.

I guess Orcs (Ondonti) could all take the wolf form at one time, which could be why they and goblins are so close to them. Who knows? Maybe that's what all wargs started out as? (i had to bring it back around to orcs, BTW)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2018 :  03:23:34  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
orcs = hyenas. right Ed.. looks at hyena laughing while nodding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSTsj2GuHxA

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234

Edited by - sfdragon on 30 Jan 2018 06:21:04
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3193 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2018 :  21:19:37  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

orcs = hyenas. right Ed.. looks at hyena laughing while nodding


-It's actually a little funny, looking at pictures of what Orcs were in the earliest 1e products, and comparing them to how they're portrayed in newer illustrations.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faern
Vol I- The Elves of Faern
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  00:05:05  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm leaning heavily now toward the Orc vs. Elf division having happened well before they came to Faerun.

If a portal was opened that brought the first elves to Faerun and it was opened long enough then Orcs would have found it too if they were fighting the elves already.

Thoughts?

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  03:19:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, my idea for all of that was that the division betwen the two happened in 'The Time Before Time', so before the current iteration of the multiverse.

1) The 'Gods' appear in the Aethers (Estelar & primordials)
2) The construction of the First World begins
3) Corellon discovers The Wilderlands, a plane of primal beauty. He creates the Eladrin (High Fey) out of the plane's inhabitants (Will-O-Wisps
4) Corellon and Grumsh disagree on how to lead the Fey, they fight, and Gruumsh leaves with the Dokalfar (place he went to still undetermined)
5) Black Diamond Affair happens - Danu sacrifices herself to create the demiplane of Faerie and the Fey leave the First World
5) Dawn War happens, and Ends when The Lattice of Heaven is shattered
6) Progenitor Giants enter the Wilderlands (future Feywild) and extablish kingdoms
7) As the shattered Prime Material coalesces into 'bubbles of matter', these begin to form new worlds (within the Bubbles, called 'Crytsal Spheres').
8) Godswar starts up soon after, then end when a bunch of gods die, The War of Light & Darkness should have been a Sphere-Specific battle of that conflict. In at least one sphere, a 'new sun' is created.
9) The realm of faerie is moved to within the Wilderlands, which starts to become the Feywild.
10) The war between the Fey and the Giants causes the Fey to create new magic, banishing the dragons to the fractured Prime Material Plane.
11) Except for a fey Foorians Kingdoms, the giants are all subjugated. The Fey send the elves to the new Prime Material worlds to resolve any issues they caused with the dragons. Orcs 'come out of hiding' on these worlds (they had gone 'underground' before the Material Plane was shattered).
12) Tintageer is destroyed. Dwarves also begin to appear in other parts of the Prime worlds, the 'unripened' babes of the Jotunbrd.
13) The elves cast the Sundering Ritual, "reaching backwards and forwards in time", changing the face of Toril forever. The laws of Equivalent Exchange cause Tintageer to sink in the past, and Evermeet is created.

Thats the first time I tried to put all my thoughts into a cohesive timeline, and I kept running into problems. It needs a LOT of work. Regardless, the split between the Alfar (Fey) and Dokalfar (Unseelie Fey) happened before the First World Apocalypse.

The Feywild (once 'the Wilderlands') is a 'mirror' of the True World. Although technically a part of the First World (which was the entirety of the physical universe at that time), it was a reflection, some say, on the 'underbelly of the Heavens' (Godly realms), whereas the Shadowfell was the actual shadow of the first World, cast upon the Lower Realms. As the nature of the universe changed, so too did both of those planes, and all the direct connections between planes were lost when the Lattice of Heaven was shattered (which lead to the necessity of Gates). I don't think Orcs - the first Dokalfar that followed Gruumsh - were ever 'in' the Feywild. I think they hid in the 'deep places' of the primal [i]First World, and when that was shattered, they wound-up all over the multiverse, on just about every world.

But YOU can say one particular group was lead away by Gruumsh, and created the Orc World (although you seem to have totally steered away from the concept the world started out theirs). Hmmm... just thought of another interesting way to spin things... I need to roll that nugget around in my brain for awhile... let it fester...


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2018 03:42:17
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7433 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  03:23:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I'm leaning heavily now toward the Orc vs. Elf division having happened well before they came to Faerun.

If a portal was opened that brought the first elves to Faerun and it was opened long enough then Orcs would have found it too if they were fighting the elves already.

Thoughts?



You know I'm game for that.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  03:40:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you check what I wrote above (and I was trying to keep it cohesive with the stuff I wrote in the Maztica thread, regarding the 'Over-Cosmology'), the separation HAD to have happened VERY early, as in 'before the world was created' early.

The Orcs were already there (everywhere) because they were underground, hiding, in pieces of the first World that latter became the D&Dverse.

Later, when Gates were opened, large groups of orcs could have moved around, from world to world. This is how we get all the different 'ethnicities' of Orcs.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  03:43:29  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If you check what I wrote above (and I was trying to keep it cohesive with the stuff I wrote in the Maztica thread, regarding the 'Over-Cosmology'), the separation HAD to have happened VERY early, as in 'before the world was created' early.

The Orcs were already there (everywhere) because they were underground, hiding, in pieces of the first World that latter became the D&Dverse.

Later, when Gates were opened, large groups of orcs could have moved around, from world to world. This is how we get all the different 'ethnicities' of Orcs.



I like the idea that orcs were all over the place...because in the original story we have of the Lottery, Gruumsh PUTS them in all the pieces of the land.

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  04:44:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah. I like that as well. 'The Gods' not allowing them 'their own place' wound up being serendipitous, because they "hid within all the nooks & crannies of the universe".

I just tried linking all of that to Orcus (there HAS TO BE a link... just look at that name!), but unfortunately I had to scrap what I had. When I did some Orcus research (Man, is there a LOT of lore on that guy! he could BE his own setting!) Orcus was human once. Go figure.

He also may have been female - there is a very subtle hint to that affect - when he materializes, he cycles through all his incarnations, starting out as your atypical 'ebil priest' of some cult, then changes into a "woman-like larvae", and then becomes a Mane, then a Bar-Igura, etc, etc, all the way up to Balor, then Orcus (and even Tenebrous - his undead state), and then back to semi-dead Orcus. I wanted to make him a lietenenat of Gruumsh's that lead 'his people' underground while Gruumsh went off to fight in the Dawn War, but Orcus was definitely mortal, if not human. I mean, it is still possibly to say he was an Orc Priest during his life, but the lore specifically says he died 'thousands of years ago', not tens of thousands of years ago. Still not definitive, but I think we'd be stretching the intent of the lore on that one. The idea is that Orcus was a human mortal, who died, became a demon, and rose up through the ranks.

I Even found a bunch of interesting Acerarak lore while researching Orcus - apparently Acerarak started out as tielfing warlock. Who knew. Acerarak was a follower of Orcus (thus, Orcus has to predate Acerarak... hmmmm...)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2018 04:47:51
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000