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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  06:00:11  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

If a portal was opened that brought the first elves to Faerun and it was opened long enough then Orcs would have found it too if they were fighting the elves already.

Thoughts?


-Or, they could have been purposefully brought like the early Elves were. The Fey Creator Race opened portals from the Plane of Faerie to Toril to basically harass and undermine the various Dragon barons. If you want to go with the hypothesis that Orcs were brought by the Fey Creator Race as well, they definitely have the capability to harass the Dragon barons of the time and would check that box. Plus, removing them from the Plane of Faerie- if that's where they were- kills two birds with one stone. Basically throwing your trash in someone else's yard and not worrying about it anymore.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 31 Jan 2018 06:03:28
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6688 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  13:53:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just tried linking all of that to Orcus (there HAS TO BE a link... just look at that name!), but unfortunately I had to scrap what I had. When I did some Orcus research (Man, is there a LOT of lore on that guy! he could BE his own setting!) Orcus was human once. Go figure.




So were the Orcs in Nexal now in Maztica... just saying.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15270 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  22:37:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lies! All lies!

No-one else may become Gruumsh's blessed children!

Ya know... I think you may have hit on the precise piece of lore that made me completely NOT interested in Maztica the first time out. I read that, and that boxed set went right in the closet, next to all my other gaming stuff I knew i wasn't ever going to look at again (the DD/FR stuff was all on a bookshelf right next to my bed... in lieu of a night table. Getting to my books was much more important than a silly alarm clock).

To be fair, the Kara-Tur box spent a little bit of time in that closet as well. Until all the interest for it got drummed-up on the WotC site. Then I fell in love with it. Weird.

You know whats weird - that bookshelf got completely annihilated during the fire (the whole room did - so much paper acted as an 'accelerant'). You now what I had left? All the stuff I put in the closet - the closet was untouched (smells smoky though). That's all in my garage. I may even still have that Maztica box.

Sometimes life is a real jerk.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2018 22:48:16
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1567 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2018 :  01:13:12  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

and its basically a bunch of earthmotes (2nd edition calls them land islands).

Yup. Hence "Chukchee is not a reader, Chukchee is a writer!" is one of the main factors contributing to attitude toward 4e "development".
quote:
It would very much fit if these races are related to this original migration, since its only a planet away. Personally, it would also fit if these "lizard folk" were something a bit different from the standard lizard men, and the same with the "bird folk" not being the standard aarakocra.
They were explicitly called lizardmen and aarakocra in some sources (including Realmspace, see references in FRwiki).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

which were all lifted from the The Shadowrift, which is one of the best damn RL products around.

Which is weakly related at best to ey elsewhere.
quote:
so I got rid of it (but accidental left that one) Eladrin and Shee would both mean the same thing, except that some Eladrin can be Sith... so you can see why I ditched it). Apologies.
And all three are pronounced exactly the same, and sound the same to the human ear, which makes it very confusing to non-Fey. When Fey speak to one another, there is a sub-level of empathy going on, almost like low-frequency, that becomes part of their language - it gives their words the descriptors other langauges need (like adverbs and adjectives). Thus, when a Fey says 'Shee' (thats how it is pronounced), another fey knows precisely what branch they are talking about.

What's #1250 on Mr. Welch's list, again?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Or, they could have been purposefully brought like the early Elves were. The Fey Creator Race opened portals from the Plane of Faerie to Toril to basically harass and undermine the various Dragon barons. If you want to go with the hypothesis that Orcs were brought by the Fey Creator Race as well, they definitely have the capability to harass the Dragon barons of the time and would check that box.

Either the dragons look out for thieving louts, or hunt them, either way distracted from more subtle folk, indeed.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2018 :  21:30:31  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Either the dragons look out for thieving louts, or hunt them, either way distracted from more subtle folk, indeed.


-And, let's be honest: even though they're 1st level fodder by themselves, Orc Hordes are very dangerous things.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Ayrik
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Canada
6563 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  01:10:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If orcs are 1HD across (almost) their entire population - unlike (demi)humans who tend to be less and have relatively few "exceptional" individuals - then they'd also have enough impact on the ecology to ramp everything up a little bit. Fewer "weak" prey and predators (animals and monsters alike), more "strong" ones capable of surviving encounters with orcs. I almost imagine a world where every creature which is normally soft and cute and fluffy is a little "tougher" and "meaner" ... bunnies with claws, ducks with hardened hides, puppies with vicious fangs, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30819 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  03:33:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

If orcs are 1HD across (almost) their entire population - unlike (demi)humans who tend to be less and have relatively few "exceptional" individuals - then they'd also have enough impact on the ecology to ramp everything up a little bit. Fewer "weak" prey and predators (animals and monsters alike), more "strong" ones capable of surviving encounters with orcs. I almost imagine a world where every creature which is normally soft and cute and fluffy is a little "tougher" and "meaner" ... bunnies with claws, ducks with hardened hides, puppies with vicious fangs, lol.



That rabbit's dynamite!

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15270 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  04:04:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

which were all lifted from the The Shadowrift, which is one of the best damn RL products around.

Which is weakly related at best to ey elsewhere.

Seriously? Its one of the few RL products I liked. that, and the monstrous compendiums. I guess if you aren't playing ravenloft your reasons for liking something shift.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

so I got rid of it (but accidental left that one) Eladrin and Shee would both mean the same thing, except that some Eladrin can be Sith... so you can see why I ditched it). Apologies.
And all three are pronounced exactly the same, and sound the same to the human ear, which makes it very confusing to non-Fey. When Fey speak to one another, there is a sub-level of empathy going on, almost like low-frequency, that becomes part of their language - it gives their words the descriptors other languages need (like adverbs and adjectives). Thus, when a Fey says 'Shee' (thats how it is pronounced), another fey knows precisely what branch they are talking about.

What's #1250 on Mr. Welch's list, again?
I don't get the reference.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
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3071 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  04:07:07  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://www.destructoid.com/from-cuddly-to-crazy-the-history-of-the-videogame-bunny-128006.phtml

-Although it looks not that good graphically, I am pumped for the Secret of Mana remake.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6688 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  18:25:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

[quote] It would very much fit if these races are related to this original migration, since its only a planet away. Personally, it would also fit if these "lizard folk" were something a bit different from the standard lizard men, and the same with the "bird folk" not being the standard aarakocra.
They were explicitly called lizardmen and aarakocra in some sources (including Realmspace, see references in FRwiki).



Yeah, that's why I used the word "Personally". I know that they were lizard men and aarakocras. But considering that the aarakocra now looks nothing like the aarakocra of old, I guess it doesn't matter. We can give those races any look we want just so long as they basically look like lizard men and some kind of bird folk.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6688 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2018 :  18:29:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

which were all lifted from the The Shadowrift, which is one of the best damn RL products around.

Which is weakly related at best to ey elsewhere.

Seriously? Its one of the few RL products I liked. that, and the monstrous compendiums. I guess if you aren't playing ravenloft your reasons for liking something shift.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

so I got rid of it (but accidental left that one) Eladrin and Shee would both mean the same thing, except that some Eladrin can be Sith... so you can see why I ditched it). Apologies.
And all three are pronounced exactly the same, and sound the same to the human ear, which makes it very confusing to non-Fey. When Fey speak to one another, there is a sub-level of empathy going on, almost like low-frequency, that becomes part of their language - it gives their words the descriptors other languages need (like adverbs and adjectives). Thus, when a Fey says 'Shee' (thats how it is pronounced), another fey knows precisely what branch they are talking about.

What's #1250 on Mr. Welch's list, again?
I don't get the reference.



1250. I will address the other PC as Lord Tyrion, Eldritch Knight of the Winter Court. And not just as the Sidhe Male.

from here, I'm guessing
http://theglen.livejournal.com/131998.html

From which...

1244. I will not point out the Drow Matron would make more money as an exotic dancer. Even if it’s true.

1261. If the villain’s three room lair holds over one hundred brutes, can’t just tip off the Fire Marshal.

1343. If I have to explain to the halfling’s sister why we dressed him like a raccoon, we’re all in trouble.

1355. Pointing out the massive plothole in the villain's plan is not going to stop her from attacking.

1384. I will not start a Ponzi scheme involving the entire party.

1413. Even if the dungeon has only one exit, can't just starve the villain out.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Feb 2018 18:53:29
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  02:09:32  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Looking through Evermeet, when Araushnee starts plotting with Malar, she mentions that Elves exist on Toril, and that Orcs exist on the world as well. This happened before Araushnee was cast from the Seldarine, which means it happened circa -30,000 DR. This is problematic because AGHotR states that the first Elves came in -27,000 DR. Given the inconsistencies regarding ancient Elven history that AGHotR has, we can either regard that date as wrong, and bump it back, or we can regard the conversation in Evermeet as apocryphal. Given that the whole book is technically second-hand and legend (although, to my knowledge, very little canon, if any asides for perhaps this, contradict anything in it).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Ayrik
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Canada
6563 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  02:33:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's hard to consolidate canon more accurately than the authors who wrote it, lol.

Elves in Dragonlance are even snootier than usual about segregating themselves from each other. And they each maintain slightly differing accounts about their "true" origins and histories on Krynn.
Perhaps Tel'Quessir have similarly conflicting versions of their presence in the Realms, along with similarly conflicting accounts about the orcs/etc they fought.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Feb 2018 02:34:24
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  04:16:26  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is what Elaine said regarding the whole thing:

quote:


quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Hi Elaine!

Did you ever notice the similarity between the alliance of Gruumsh and Lolth to the alliance of Melkor and Ungoliant?

Please don't mind my ramble...

The reason I ask is that I'm getting ready to produce a book that focuses on an Orc World to publish on DMs Guild. The Orc World is the one the Gray Orcs that were part of the Orcgate Wars came from; and I wanted to build into the lore a reason that Elves and Orcs came from that world at the same time in c. -27,000 DR when portals were opened to it by the Fey to bring the Elves.

Ed said in the Old Grey Box that Elves couldn't remember a time when goblinoids weren't testing the borders of Elf lands...and so I wanted to work it in.

I can't touch any IP of the Tolkien estate obviously; but if I build on YOUR story from Evermeet, then I can build a story of why Gruumsh and Corellon hate each other so badly before the elves of Faerun even knew about the Seldarine.

quote:

From A Grand History of the Realms:

c. –27000 DR
Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time)...


My problem is that I feel like I NEED to pick your brain about their early animosity. Care to share any thoughts?



This might not be what you're looking for, but the truth is, I consider the early chapters of EVERMEET to be mythology and folklore, not history. The story is carefully framed to suggest that approach, in that it's written by a human bard who has limited access to elvish lore. Also, as a longtime student of history, folklore, and religion, I understand that there's a difference between Truth and fact.

The chapters in EVERMEET that deal with gods and creation stories deal with Truth. I see such beliefs as "elves and orcs were born of the blood shed by the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh" to be a metaphor for a longstanding conflict, not a literal statement or a historical fact. So I'm never quite sure how to answer gamers who email me to ask how MANY drops of blood were shed by each of the combatants, and whether those drops corresponded to elf and orc creation on a one-to-one ration, and also, since elves and orcs existed BEFORE that battle, how do I reconcile these two "facts?"

Here's how: When it comes to Forgotten Realms theology, I'm not a fundamentalist. I don't believe that every tale told is literally true. That's a difficult position to support when gods are given stats, but it's the approach I take.

So. If you're writing a history of this early time, my advice is to create whatever scenario you prefer. The true story of the warlord (or warlords) who fought against Saxon invadors might bear little resemblance to the tales of King Arthur and his shining Camelot, but it would still be a story worth hearing.


So with this we can say that the c. -30,000 DR of the War of the Seldarine is indeed simply an estimate and not a hard date at all.

AD&D for me!
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1567 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  05:54:22  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

But considering that the aarakocra now looks nothing like the aarakocra of old, I guess it doesn't matter.

This may apply to anything.
quote:
We can give those races any look we want just so long as they basically look like lizard men and some kind of bird folk.

If you want customisation, why not the way it was done in Birthright?
It's reasonable, after all - given long isolation and the differences between living in swamps and on flying islands.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Looking through Evermeet, when Araushnee starts plotting with Malar, she mentions that Elves exist on Toril, and that Orcs exist on the world as well. This happened before Araushnee was cast from the Seldarine, which means it happened circa -30,000 DR. This is problematic because AGHotR states that the first Elves came in -27,000 DR. Given the inconsistencies

Which the elves overheard and told one Danilo Thann. This be a prime example of "-...Myth! -Yeth?"
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Elves in Dragonlance are even snootier than usual about segregating themselves from each other.

Yup. Not enough to leave Kagonesti (warning, near-WoW grade "art") alone, however.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30819 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  15:55:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder


quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Elves in Dragonlance are even snootier than usual about segregating themselves from each other.

Yup. Not enough to leave Kagonesti (warning, near-WoW grade "art") alone, however.



Well, to be fair, the Qualinesti were fleeing from their homeland. And then they treated the Kagonesti as virtual slaves.

Walking into someone else's home, making yourself comfortable while proclaiming it barely adequate, and then making your host into a slave -- that's all pretty snooty.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Feb 2018 15:56:51
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  18:25:23  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So with this we can say that the c. -30,000 DR of the War of the Seldarine is indeed simply an estimate and not a hard date at all.


-While that works within the context of Evermeet, everything in AGHotR unless otherwise specified is a hard date. It gets convoluted if you want to stay as close to canon as possible. But like I said, there are inconsistencies in the early Elven history entries of AGHotR that appeared in the timeline that appeared when it became a physical book, as opposed to the PDF, so I guess you have to take it with a grain of salt.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Which the elves overheard and told one Danilo Thann. This be a prime example of "-...Myth! -Yeth?"


-I mean, of course everything in the book is "reported" second and third hand. No one was spying on Araushnee and Malar in the hazy days of prehistory. To my knowledge, though, even though everything in the book is presented as myth and story from unreliable narrators, nothing in sources elsewhere presented as hard canon have gone against them as far as I know. In me and Mark's long arguments on the topic years ago, I noticed this. Not necessarily dates, since dates aren't really used in the book, but events, people, things, etc. It all checks out when referenced with sources that present canon as 100% hard fact (3e sourcebooks).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 04 Feb 2018 18:30:49
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3585 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  18:57:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So with this we can say that the c. -30,000 DR of the War of the Seldarine is indeed simply an estimate and not a hard date at all.


-While that works within the context of Evermeet, everything in AGHotR unless otherwise specified is a hard date. It gets convoluted if you want to stay as close to canon as possible. But like I said, there are inconsistencies in the early Elven history entries of AGHotR that appeared in the timeline that appeared when it became a physical book, as opposed to the PDF, so I guess you have to take it with a grain of salt.



Think of it this way: in the GHotR dates are often noted as "c." for a reason.

By using approximations it keeps things more fluid and open to interpretation...so no hard dates if there is a "c." in front of it.

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15270 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  19:30:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, I used to have one tribe of proto-elves (I guess I can start calling them 'fey' now) called the 'Nesti', which is the tribe all the Krynnish groups splintered off from. I believe I hinted at that in some of the stuff I wrote for the Elven netbook project, but that may have been part of the stuff I never finished - not sure. Anyway, the Nesti were considered a 'special' bunch, and when all the others began fighting and taking sides, no side wanted them, thus, they were 'caught in the middle'. Scholars refer to this as the 'Nesti's Crunch'.

When the Crystal Spheres were forming, the Gods got together and decided to create one world where they could dump all the 'less than stellar' versions of their favorite races, thus 'special' dwarves, halfings (Kender), (crazy) gnomes, and even dragonfolk went to that world.

Can you just feel my love for Dragonlance?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2018 19:31:18
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15270 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  19:55:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Secondly, TIME. One of my favorite subjects. Forget that adorable little 'c.'. We got something better. The universe (as it was before) was destroyed, and then rebuilt. There was no time before than, just a very loose concept of 'order' (as in, 'the order things happen in', which I think was handled by Chronepsis). After The Dawn War, time became a more solid concept (and Chronepsis became Chronos, IMO) - before then, in the 'First World', everything was much more malleable. The event wherein a Supernal 'died' changed all of that - it created the very first 'fixed point', and time became more inviolate.

So we got a LOT of history that happened in the 'Before Time', and if you read ZeromaruX's excellent History of the Nentir Vales (which includes TONS of proto-history that is now canon D&D history), you'll see that Corellon's discovery of the Feywild and later creation of the Elves happened in the before-Time. Including his first fight with Gruumsh (but the fight that ended their relationship happened during the later Godswar - they were allies during the Dawn War. Don't think that's so amazing, because Asmodeus was one of their staunchest allies as well). Just like the U.S. was allies with Russia during WW2 - you don't have to like each other to have a common enemy.

So we got this 'wishy-washy' Before-Time thing going on involving a LOT of our earliest Elven history. Then we have the Sundering - the first one Ao did all by himself (AFAIK). Now, that may not have affected time itself (although one has to assume that living things have to have been put in stasis, even if only for a short time), but we do know that the Elven Sundering reached backwards and forwards in time, and interfered with Ao's Sundering, and created Evermeet 'in the past'. Thus, the ritual may have occurred much later, but the two Sunderings were really just one event... and time got 'mucked with'. Pretty major, eh? Considering that's when the world as we know it was formed (Abeir was split-off from Toril).

Next up, we have The Dawn Cataclysm, another fairly major event that "happened outside of time", and gods were made, unmade, and some may have simply been 'erased' from history. We just don't know.

In summation, we got this 'black hole' in the very beginning of the timeline where time DID NOT MATTER, and three (really two) separate events where time got changed - the timeline was altered. Not to mention tens of thousands of years where other such may have occurred and no-one remembers them (because you wouldn't recall the original events if you were part of the changes). Plus, tons of known events where 'magic ran Amok' (Fall of Netheril, ToT, The Spellplague) - every single time Mystryl/Mystra has died, we've had magical chaos, and we KNOW magic can affect time as well (just look at the Feywild -the very plane of magic has major time distortions), plus, there is The Chronomancer. All proof that directed magic CAN alter timeline events, and that magical chaos can warp events. Time & Magic are connected - its even in Mystra's portfolio.

So, all that "the timeline is a 'best guess' (at best)" aside, we also have changes made to canon to fit WotC's current narrative, and although that's thinking meta-game, the truth is, the timeline is only as 'factual' as the last sourcebook... and we all know it. The major changes and distortions the 4e lore - which is now our lore - means we have to 'reinterpret' (rewrite) our own canon to best fit the current WotC narrative. Fortunately, as I've just pointed out above, we can use their own changes against them and twist things around any way we want... usually.

So if you can come up with a better version of historic events than they've come up with, please share. I know I am constantly tweaking my own version to include everything from every edition (plus folklore, mythology, and even RW science, when I can).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2018 20:05:47
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Lord Karsus
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USA
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  19:56:20  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Lol, I never noticed the "C". Notice, certain things in those first couple of pages have c and others don't. Not like that doesn't convolute things.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So we got a LOT of history that happened in the 'Before Time', and if you read ZeromaruX's excellent History of the Nentir Vales (which includes TONS of proto-history that is now canon D&D history), you'll see that Corellon's discovery of the Feywild and later creation of the Elves happened in the before-Time. Including his first fight with Gruumsh (but the fight that ended their relationship happened during the later Godwar - they were allies during the Dawn War. Don't think that's so amazing, because Asmodeus was one of their staunchest allies as well. Just like the U.S. was allies with Russia during WW2 - you don't have to like each other to have a common enemy.

So we got this 'wishy-washy' Before-Time thing going on invlving a LOT of our earliest Elven history.

-I'm 99.9999% sure this was always the case. There was never anything that said "On X date, Corellon and Gruumsh fought, and the Elves and Orcs were created." Hey, we don't even technically know if they actually fought and that said fight was the real genesis of those races.

-The Dawn Cataclysm if I am remembering correctly is a little different because it took place when humanity was well established and history was well on its way and being recorded.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 04 Feb 2018 20:05:51
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  20:51:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myths are often metaphorical.

Elves and orcs fought, probably a great war which lasted a long time. Not the same as Corellon and Gruumsh fought on one particular afternoon.

So I think you won't find any specific god-vs-god battle on the calendar, but you might find a war lasting years or centuries. Especially a myth largely passed on through long-thinking elven perspectives. Humans might see an epic event (Karsus blew up Netheril, Avatar Crisis) as occurring on or within fixed dates, elves might see (and record) epic events as something witnessed across five centuries.

[/Ayrik]
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1007 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  21:50:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you go by the current iteration of the myth of Corellon vs Gruumsh, the fight could have happened before, concurrently, or after the Dawn War. There are not accurate accounts, and not even the eldest sages alive are sure about this. So, what Ayrik says: those fights can represent some other stuff. We only know for certain that one day, in the ancient past, Corellon ripped off Gruumsh's eye, and that is all.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 04 Feb 2018 :  22:32:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still working on a cross-edition, universal timeline. I tried to do one in the Maztica thread a few days ago and had to stop just 12 entries in - stuff kept interfering with each other (which you don't 'see' until you start writing it all down). Sorry about this INSANE 'wall of text'.

The only thing I know for sure (as of right now LOL) is that the War of Light & Darkness had to be a latter thing than the Dawn war, and was Realms-exclusive, although it may have been part of the much larger 'Godswar', which really wasn't a war at all. That's just the name scholars give to a period of time following the Dawn War when the god were all attacking each other (former allies, that is). You can 'read into' that that there was a lot of blame/finger-pointing going on, once the Lattice of Heaven was destroyed.

My idea of keeping 'Faerie' as a separate thing from the 'feywild' helps a lot, but I still don't have it perfect. As I've said elsewhere, faerie is to the feywild what Ravenloft is to the Shadowfell. Its a prime-material realm that got shunted into the plane, and became an 'anchor' for like-minded realms from elsewhere, like a some sort of weird empathic (emotional) magnet. Just as the Domains of Dread grew around Ravenloft, so, too, did the Domains of Dream grow around Faerie.

So we have Corellon finding the Feywild, him and the Seldarine making Fey/Elves from whats there, and then the fey are suddenly in Ladinion, and the events surrounding the Black Diamond Affair unfold, and they have to flee Ladinion to Faerie... which we now know is in the Feywild. And at a later point, the elves separate from the fey, but that parts murky¹. Giants (Fomorains specifically) 'ruled' in the Feywild until the Eladrin Fey 'showed up', and yet, we have it where the fey (also elves *GAH*) were made from the Feywild. Lets try again...

1) Corellon discovers the Feywild, and soon after everyone else knows about it as well. Corellon takes some of the plane-stuff (or small creatures already there) and creates the first Fey². These are the LeShay - the most powerful of the fey. Seldarine (and that term may have been broader and included many others who are no longer in that group, and I am not just talking about the Anti-Seldarine or the goblin gods) created their own Fey (hence, the differences in appearance).

2) In the interim, Annam (a Primordial) starts creating the Jotuns (Planer Titans). He also goes to the Feywild and uses what he finds there to create the Giantkin. Unhappy with these 'lesser' giants, he goes back to making his from the elemental Maelstrom (the unfinished 'soup' outside of the ever-growing First World). The giantkyn are left to their own devices in the Wilderlands (Feywild).

3) A large number of fey are now created, and Corellon brings them back to the Abeir-Toril ("Cradle of Life") where other gods are crafting all the living things that will populate the first World when it is completed. Araushnee the Weaver catches a glimpse at Chronepsis' 'Great River of Order', and from what she saw at the end of it (End of Time), she weaves the Tapestry of Fate. From that, the gods discern that the world (later universe) they are creating will one day be destroyed by 'outside forces', and there is nothing they can do to stop it. However, a mortal race will rise to greatness, and be able to save the universe in its final hour. Thus, the idea of a 'Race of Destiny' is born. Along with Corellon's Fey Elves, other gods have created the Sarrukh, Aearee, and Batrachi as contenders. All have methods of adapting themselves to changes, and thus are well prepared for the eventual crisis (or so their creators think). One young god (who's name has been forgotten) accidentally creates humans from the primates he enjoys watching play, and although the other gods scoff, he adds them as contenders for the 'Race of Destiny'.

4) The Dawn War breaks out, and at the end of the conflict the Lattice of Heaven is rent asunder. The First World begins to unravel, and the gods, thinking this is the 'Final Conflict' foretold, move to quickly save their creatures, placing them inside the world in suspended animation. Annam moves most his Jotunbrūd into the Feywild, thinking they'll be safe there. The Fomorians and other Giantkyn have built realms of their own, and can help protect them in the coming cataclysm.

5) Toward the end of the Dawn War, Titania's sister is 'infected' with Chaos (as many gods are - its what the war is being fought over), and Aurilandur is turned into The Queen of Air & Darkness, and Ladinion itself is corrupted. Their mother - Danu (and ancient primal Archfey) - sacrifices herself to create Faerie, an other-worldy Realm (demiplane) where the Eldarin can survive the doom coming upon the First World. The Eladrin become know as the Tautha DeDanann ('followers of Danu') and flee into Faerie... which was created in the Feywild. The Gaea (Lifeforce) merges with The Ymir (Firmament) to stabilize it and help nurture (keep alive) those creatures now encased within, but this only allows the gods a little extra time to save all the living things, with them all scrambling to hide their favorites wherever they could.

6) The new universe was created out of the fragmented bits of the First World (the scalyfolk know this as the 'Fragmentation of the World serpent'), each containing pieces of that great work. Within these bubbles of primal matter are contained the flora and fauna of the First World in stasis. The gods begin work on the Crystals Spheres, forming them from the scattered pieces of matter, and when the new worlds are ready, the creatures are 'lead forth' into the light (many cultures have myths regarding this). During this time, however (roughly a thousand years? Perhaps three thousand?), The giants of the Wilderlands (their name - the first name - for the feywild) have exerted their control over much of the plane, including the dregs of other races that hid within the Feywild (some of the other Creatori wound up here as well). Toward the end of the era of giant-ruled feywild, they also began to expand into the new worlds that were already completed within the infant multiverse. Inside their 'bubble', the fey thrived, and the (Sylvan) elves were born into this little microcosm. There was much disagreement among the Seldarine over what to do about all this; Corellon thought they should just be left to their own devices (so that they could 'grow' in ways no-one could predict), whereas both Auraushnee and Gruumsh wanted more 'hands on' involvement. Things happened between the three that I do not need to cover here. Gruumsh led 'his people' (future goblinoids) away, into the greater feywild, outside of Faerie, and Lolth was banished for her part in the disagreement.

7) The Godswar. Old hatreds die hard, and many gods (and a few primordials) go after each other. Corellen battles with Gruumsh and puts out his eye (this is the culmination of events described above). This conflict escalates into the new crystal Spheres, once-again involving nearly every 'Power' (most wanted to stay out of it, but they got drawn in as battles began to destroy things they were trying to build). Towrd the very end of this 'war', one of the final battles takes place in an important Crystal Sphere being guarded-over by Ao (an Eternal - something 'outside' the normal deific hierarchy). This Sphere - which would become known as 'Realmspace' - contained the Abeir-Toril; the 'Cradle of Life', which still contained much of the power and divine-conduits (remnants of the shattered Lattice of Heaven) from the First World. That piece Ao had used to create Abeir-Toril itself - basically, the 'workshop of the gods' made into a planet. But an aspect of Sehanine - Selūne - that was helping him craft the sphere somehow became corrupted, and her 'shadow (Shaar) became a thing unto itself. Shar destroyed the first sun, and the two battled, and Abeir-Toril was almost destroyed for a second time when an 'ice moon' (containing bits of those 'sleeping' dragons) was hurled at it. Ao separated and bound the two, containing their power and keeping most of it beyond their reach (thus, the Weave was created). With aid from Kossuth, a second sun is ignited, and Ao found a young mortal woman (race unknown) to be its caretaker (and so Mystryl is 'born').

8) The growing populations of Fey and giants come into conflict. The Fey help to free the dragons from giant enslavement, which forces them into a war with the giant kingdoms around them. The dragons, meanwhile, 'run amok' and start destroying everything in sight, and the fey feel it was their responsibility. With both the fey and Giants hunting them, the dragons (the archdragons, actually) find a way to transport themselves to the newly forming Prime Material worlds (they place the dragon's essences into the many pieces of small debris still floating within the space of the Crystal Spheres, like 'eggs') Looking for an excuse to send away their 'lesser kindred' (who now outnumbered them 20-to-1), a Geas was placed upon the elves to go forth and work behind the scenes against the dragons. Most of the larger giants are eventually driven out of the Feywild, but the Fomorians and others remain, continuing to fight against the fey until this day. The Giants use the same Fey-Gates the elves are all passing through, going to the same worlds (this may have been part of the fey plan - to make the giants think they were heading for 'greener pastures', so to speak). This is why you so often find giants in close proximity to fey areas on Prime Worlds.

8) War comes to Faerie itself (this may have been a reflection of the greater war raging in the Heavens at this time). Even without the Dokalfar (the goblyns who left with Gruumsh), AND their 'lesser kindred' (the elves), the Eladrin begin to disagree vehemently on the poor ways they have been handling tings. There are 'progressives' (Silver Elves), and 'Conservatives' (Gold Elves, who feel they could do no wrong). Tintageer is destroyed, and elves from that island realm flee to Abeir-Toril. The Eldarin ('High Elves' - both Gold & Silver) find a world much to their liking. However, the soon learned that BOTH the dragons and giants have already carved-out empires for themselves (even though they has sent the elves to the prime Worlds just t prevent such a thing). The elves had failed, being out-matched magically. The Eladrin were much more powerful with their Fey (High) magic, but their numbers were exceedingly small. Still, they eventually prevailed (after spending some time as slaves to the draconic empires), both soon started turning on each other (as the dragons had done before them). The Eladrin discovered a number of other Fey (Eladrin) elves had gone with the Sylvan elves when they were sent from Faerie - the Ilythiir clans, who had once followed the teachings of Lolth and her children. In typical elven fashion - and not being able to abide by anyone they could not dominate - the Crown Wars soon broke out, and the Dark Elves were eventually defeated and driven undergound (but not before the combatants gained the attentions of Lolth, who now had an interest in this world). During the conflict, some Gold Elves decided they needed a 'backup plan' - another place they could flee to if things got rough again. So they cast their mightiest High Magic ritual to date, reached backwards in time, and created a homeland for themselves back when the world was first Sundered (by Ao, when he 'twinned the world'). This had the unfortunate effect of rewriting some of their own history, and even 'the gods' are confused when they try to remember the events before the ritual took place. Entire nations and peoples were simply 'erased' (but Ao did what he could to save some of it, sending it to Abeir where he had entrapped many of the primordials who fell during the Godswar).

And the rest, as they say, 'is history'. Note: I did not assign precise dating - that would almost impossible. This is more of an 'order of events' than a true timeline, because many of them overlap (by thousands of years!)


¹I 'may' decide not to connect this to the 'lessening' of the world, because its been the most difficult piece of lore to work with. I may have to say the LeShay/Archfey themselves tried their hand at creating more fey, but theirs were not nearly as good as the Gods, and thus, they were only able to create pale reflections of their glory - the elves. That might work better moving forward).

²While I believe Correlon (and others) made the High Fey (Eladrins) from proto-fey ('balls of planer energy' - the Will-O-Wisps), it could also be he took the 'wee folk' (small fey we already know about) and created the high fey from them. I'm not going to spin it that way (because I am also involving the giants), but if you prefer that, than that also works fine within this framework I am trying to assemble.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2018 22:50:08
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1567 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  07:13:02  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Araushnee parted ways with the Seldarine when they were already in Arvandor. Aside of the myth where she got booted from specifically there, the place still has traces, Grandfather Oak used to have spider-silk workshops, etc.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

-- that's all pretty snooty.

Hmm. So the elves have combined value of (snootiness + isolation) preserved, and when one component goes down, the other has to go up?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

To my knowledge, though, even though everything in the book is presented as myth and story from unreliable narrators, nothing in sources elsewhere presented as hard canon have gone against them as far as I know.

It's essentially "long-term hostility to the elves is the result of world Multiverse wide conspiracy" myth. Huh. When put like this, it seems inevitable, indeed.
Ooh! I had that feeling like the Elven lore misses some spice, and now figured out which.
Some "proof" of their more far-fetched grievances, roughly equivalent to Protocols of Elders of Zion/Willie Lynch Speech/Totally-Not-Gleick's Memo... Or even better: as bad as all 3 put together, seeing how the elves tend to overdo things and are too haughty to research the details on non-People. Sort of the ultimate facepalm combo - anyone with round ears trying to read it inexplicably knock themselves unconscious about halfway through, clearly by the power of truthiness.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Just like the U.S. was allies with Russia during WW2 - you don't have to like each other to have a common enemy.

It's a curious idea, given that
1. "Russia" didn't exist as a polity for about two decades, and
2. USA helped Soviet Union both before and after (even when not officially endorsed, a lot was done quietly or under "we strongly oppose it and will give you a slap on the wrist reduced to frown, if someone else catches you" policy, much like with Ford and others helping Germany).
The again, why not extend this analogy.
quote:
So, all that "the timeline is a 'best guess' (at best)" aside, we also have changes made to canon to fit WotC's current narrative, and although that's thinking meta-game, the truth is, the timeline is only as 'factual' as the last sourcebook... and we all know it. The major changes and distortions the 4e lore - which is now our lore - means we have to 'reinterpret' (rewrite) our own canon to best fit the current WotC narrative.

Unless we'll simply drop inconsistent/nonsensical elements and anything that relies on them. The other choice is to put a great effort into explaining every single thing every single lazy hack let slip in at some time, and run over robust lore for this... and then do it again from scratch the next week.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 05 Feb 2018 22:15:44
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