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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  06:23:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm reading the Old Empires sourcebook. I bought the book last year, but I started in somewhat strange order. I started with Unther, that is the place I was interested when I bought the book (as I have a pet project of updating the Old Empires articles in the wiki, and also, to develop my own version of the Old Empires).

So, I'm now starting with Mulhorand, and I found this:

"Within this expanse are desert, ruins, mountains, fertile fields, and cities that were great 2,000 years before the first stone was place on Waterdeep, before the Zhentarim ever unleashed an evil scheme, before Bane was even aware that the Realms existed, a time when the world was young, even to the elves. The words Mulhorand and 'eternity' are the same in the language of the Mulhorandi."

Page 14

Isn't Bane an ascended human? How he cannot be aware of the world he was born into? (I feel my grammar shaky here...)

So, I'm curious: The older concepts Bane where different from those we know today? Like, was he a god from the start in the OGB or something?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  06:43:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If he wasn't around then, then he didn't know the world existed.

Seriously, I think that sourcebook rather predates the lore about Bane being an ascended human.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  07:13:57  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've come to accept that Bane was never a human...

I think he was either a Half-Orc or even a full orc.

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Storyteller Hero
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USA
103 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  08:06:29  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Bane was a planeswalker (or spelljamming adventurer) before he became a deity, then he could have been born on another world or in another plane or another crystal sphere.

If he was born on Nerath (4e "core" setting), and set up a foothold of worshippers on Nerath after becoming a deity of Realmspace, that might make for an interesting full circle story.




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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 21 Jan 2018 08:11:51
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sfdragon
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2190 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  08:44:06  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote

bane a half orc or a full orc....

he could also be as a mortal:
goliath
firebolg
half giant

as he was the ultimate tyrant,,,,

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  08:52:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are two Banes, obviously. Probably more - all aspects of 'The Bane' (Core Bane).

The best way to rectify this (and blend it all into the 4e lore) is to say we had a Bane way back when, and something happened to him. Imaskar may have known about him, but he wasn't part of the netherese pantheon. Maybe he came out of Jhaamdath (which itself came out the Old Empires, via Chondath... which wasn't Chondath at the time). And if he did come out of Jhaamdath, then its easy to reconcile - his faith disappeared when Jhaamdath did. This would have been 'Core bane', BTW.

Then we have a mortal. Perhaps he was a half-orc, perhaps he was something else. I am actually leaning toward a half-orc tiefling (not a tannuruk, because he would only be ¼ orc; in fact, he may have been the product of a tiefling and a half-orc, so one half human but from two different sides, so ¼ + ¼) The only reason why I am throwing the tiefling part in the mix is to make him a bit more like how we pictured Iyatchutu Xvim... because he was probably just like Xvim at one point. The tiefling part may have been a mortal(?) descendant of the original 'Bane', who went searching for Godhood himself (with some drinking buddies). When he achieved his goal (getting the Godhood from Jergal), he took on the mantle of 'Bane'. thus, our bane is Bane - the one we've always known. but there was another before him, which would have been aspect of the 4e Core Bane. Then in 3e Xvim also took on the mantle of 'Bane'... and he was probably just Xvim all along, just like his daddy was something else. 'Bane' then becomes a title. Wne they brought back 1e/2e Bane post-Sundering, we couldn't have two of them, so Xvim became Xvim again and an exarch of his father. Who knows? We may have had a long line of 'Banes'. Lord knows we've had a bunch of Mystras, and we've had at least two 'Black Archers' (the current one is Sevarash, but another was mentioned in the context of someone in the elven pantheon who was around some 30K years ago, which could not have been Severash).

They're just 'mantles' that Gods wear. Sometimes gods even share them, pass them around, pass them on, or abandon them and someone else later picks them up. Names have power, so its a lot easier for a deity to establish itself if it connects itself to a known name like that. Another thing that happens is an aspect of one multispheric power subsumes an aspect of another, so that a completely different god is ''masquerading' as the other god in that setting. So long as it isn't 'a pattern' (one god doing this to another over and over again, as Malar was apparently was doing to Herne, throughout the multiverse), there's usually little animosity over it ("Nothing personal... its just business"). Thus, Talos may have actually been a native Faerūnian god, but at some point Gruumsh absorbed him. Now, in 5e, we do not know if we got Gruumsh-posing-as-Talos back, or if we got an actual Talos back, from further back on the Timeline.

But in game, to mortal characters (and NPCs), none of that really matters... its just 'business as usual'. Its better if WotC doesn't even tell us, because each DM can decide which it is for their campaign.

I do not like saying our Bane was born in Nerath. There may have been another 'Bane' (aspect of the archtype) born in Nerath, just as we've had at least two born in the Realms canonically (Bane, and Xvim-Bane). However, if anyone wants to use my conversion map for the Nentir Vale (which I will be getting back to, with ZeromaruX's help), then we can just say that the Bane we got back in 5e is a whole new Bane for us (the Nerath aspect). Or, as Storyteller said above, just say he's a Planeswalker.

Good find, BTW, because it helps cement some of my theories together.

And just for shiggles, I have an idea for who our Bane may have been before his ascension, but I can't find the reference ATM (I can't believe its not in my geography notes!) I'll try to dig it up tomorrow - the location (of the individual) is fairly perfect (Hint: he was ALWAYS a tyrant).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2018 09:28:40
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5103 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  12:15:41  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you read Ed's Stormlight novel you'll get an inkling that Bane wasn't from Toril.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  13:34:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the novels gives hints that Bane was a traveler from another world. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the "Bane" we have in this world is a child of the "Bane" that's multiversal. In fact, the "Bane" that came to Toril "may" have had to do so because of the Imaskari Barrier somehow (maybe it blocked certain "types" of entities and not a certain pantheon), but perhaps he came here fully with the intent of becoming a god here. In theory there might be something to "Bhaal" as well, as he also had a variation of himself known as the ravager that was a thirty foot tall, horned almost demon/devil sounding figure.... and we also know that there is lore for a Baal or Ba'al link to the middle east. He could have been a god that Enlil chose to leave behind.

EDIT: oh, and George gives the actual novel involved.

Speaking of all that, do we ever hear WHAT was the original source of contention between Ramman, Gilgeam, and Assuran of the Three Thunders?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  21:10:45  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

If Bane was a planeswalker (or spelljamming adventurer) before he became a deity, then he could have been born on another world or in another plane or another crystal sphere.

Quite possible, seeing how the gates were around longer than anyone can tell.

Or maybe it's just Mulhorand way of posturing?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  21:53:07  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

If you read Ed's Stormlight novel you'll get an inkling that Bane wasn't from Toril.

-- George Krashos



Thanks, George. I'm going to search for that novel (though, I fear the novel will not be available in Spanish... the only Realms novels I have in Spanish were hard to get by, and are more common in Spain that in Latinamerica ).

Anyways, I guess that this makes more easy to connect Core Bane with FR Bane.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jan 2018 21:53:36
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

525 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2018 :  23:05:33  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, George. I'm going to search for that novel (though, I fear the novel will not be available in Spanish..
If only for that part, you can spare yourself the effort. It's only mentioned in a single sentence and never elaborated.
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Lord Karsus
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USA
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Posted - 22 Jan 2018 :  00:50:44  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-The novel Finder's Bane as well.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2018 :  09:26:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that was a whole different Bane.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  16:19:11  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When did Bane even come to Toril?

What date is he first mentioned?

I'm looking, but I can't find it in my notes on his church in the Moonsea where I thought I had it...

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Brimstone
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USA
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  17:49:22  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe BANE 1.0(FR) is dead, and BANE 2.0(CORE) is actually an interloper Deity.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  18:15:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Maybe BANE 1.0(FR) is dead, and BANE 2.0(CORE) is actually an interloper Deity.



Close. Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim, pretending to be his own father.

(This isn't explicitly canon, but it's the theory I have, based on a lot of odd bits concerning the reborn Bane and his failure to act as he previously did)

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:09:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I've said (ad nauseam), THE 'Bane' (which I think is a title, as in, "The Bane of All Existence") is definitely an Estelar (Elder God) who's been around from the very beginning. This is canon 4e core (Nerath) lore that has now become D&D lore which means it's our lore (because there is only one, unified canon now for the entirety of the D&Dverse... which should have always been the case).

And then, within the The Forgotten Realms, we have lore saying when Bane ascended to Godhood - fairly recently - within the setting. This is contradictory to the greater D&D lore which now supercedes it. The only way to rectify any of this (without just saying they were two completely unrelated beings) is to say one was a world-specific aspect (one of those 'Ubertars' I like to mention sometimes) of a much more ancient and powerful god. THE Bane.

So someone (THE Bane) is popping-out 'little Banes' in various settings - those are his world-specific avatars. These are made in the same way that Mystra makes her reincarnations, or how the Manifestations work in the Old Empires (and BTW, I've found that the words 'avatar' and 'manifestation' meant exactly the same thing in 2e - only the Incarnations were something unique to FR). By taking on a 'Chosen' (One) as his disciple, that person eventually ascends to (full) godhood themselves, becoming an extension of the archtype. I am sure plenty of them (gods on worlds) work just this way. Thus, each world can have its own creation-myth regarding a multispheric God, and all of them will be true - they are actually talking about the individual mortals who ascended on their worlds to become that God (or rather, an aspect of that god). And aspects don't even have to be all that much alike, either. Normally, the archtype will choose mortals that perfectly align with their outlook (portfolio) and possibly even race/appearance, but this is not a hard rule. There could be an Elven 'Thor' out there somewhere. In our canon (now), we have two somewhat different beings - Selūne and Sehanine - who we've found out are the same power. And yet, they appear different with slightly different personalities, and the two different aspects can even get together and have conversations (or arguments!) with themselves, because for all intents and purposes, from a mortal viewpoint, those are two separate beings. Just as Manshoon's clones are separate beings. The level those two are connected to the 'Moon-Goddess Archtype' is irrelevant to anything mortals can do (usually).

So our Bane is The Bane to us, but he is not THE Bane that was around in the Before Time.

Xvim was just a copy of a copy, and thats not very good. I have to assume that BIG BANE (the archtype) noticed he was missing one of his appendages, and sent an avatar to bond with Xvim. The result was Bane ripping out through his chest: It could be that Xvim was destroyed in that moment, and that the avatar bonded with whatever piece of FR-Bane was left inside Xvim, or, it bonded with Xvim himself, and that was the spectacular way that manifested - it works either way. At this point, with our Bane back, its probably best to say that that was just Xvim, and he was 'filled with the (un)holy spirit' (Core Bane). Come 5e, Ao brings back our original Bane (he must have an external hard drive where he stores backups of this stuff ), and so Xvim went back to just being Xvim (even though technically, he is also 'a Bane' now).

So can there be two separate aspects of the same god on one world? Of course! I just mentioned the moon goddesses, and there other examples; I am pretty sure Gruumsh and Talos were an example. I also happen to think that Ra and Amaunator are art of the same archtype (Amaun-Ra). I am also starting to think there is one more layer I hadn't considered before - a Sphere archtype. In toher words, if a God has two many avatars on one world, that would leave him with less for other worlds, so perhaps the archtypes (those proto-Gods we now know are called Estelar) can have unlimited numbers of avatars, but each sphere is limited to a number equivalent to the God's limit. Thus, Toril might ave 20 different moon Goddess avatars running all around (I'm pretty sure the OE had at least one, and K-T has at least one other, etc), but they can't have 21, because that would 'break the rules'. However, that moon Goddess archtype could have 20 avatars on every world she has a presence on (including male or even asexual avatars). thus, its almost like the Sphere itself gains its own 'archtype'. Had to self-edit here.

Which means, Wooly, that your theory could be both correct and incorrect (so would that now be Schrödinger's Bane[/i]?) at the same time. Both have pieces of the Bane archtype within them.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2018 19:13:44
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:12:15  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane 1.0 (mortal ascended): Died in the TOT
Bane 2.0 (Xvim): killed by Bane 3.0
Bane 3.0 (Achra): A Bane from an alternate world (Nentir Vale). Current Bane

That would explain a lot of things. Like, why the current Bane behaves differently from the original Bane.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:18:44  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When did the ascended Bane first "come into news" as it were in the Forgotten Realms? Anyone have a date?

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:20:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Big chunk of text that I actually read... seriously



Incidentally, is hinted that Achra, the Core Bane, was also an ascended mortal (one of the first mortals) who took up the mantle of the War God, after killing a former War God (Tuern). So, you maybe are onto something there...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:20:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except, you haven't covered why our Bane has a recent ascension myth (which is pretty central to a lot of our lore, so we can't just pretend it never happened). If Xvim is still around it affects everything; if he is dead, your methodology is simpler. But if he is still alive, then why would THE Bane send another avatar to FR?

Unless Wooly is 100% correct, and that was never Bane, and now THE Bane is our setting. That is 'cleaner', lore-wise, I suppose. {drat!}

So our Bane was just using the name then? I hate the "there were two of them" lore-snafu fixes. I have to admit it works, though. I also hate giving Bane to Nerath (I prefer their Bane also just being an aspect of THE Bane). Plus, we have that odd entry that started this whole thread (that there was a 'before BANE Bane'). Of course, someone else may have been using the name in the past, which was part of my own theory anyway. For all we know, the 1e bane may have actually already been Bane 9.0 in The Realms.

EDIT:
I think I prefer this logic path, now that i am thinking on it. Thus, vim was never part of 'The Bane' - he was just pretending, as Wooly surmised.

EDIT:
Because of my desire to over-complicate EVERYTHING, I am going to make myself feel better now by saying Nerath is actually part of the Outlands. That fixes A LOT of things; that 'world' was never said to be a planet, no 'system' (Crystal Sphere) was ever described for it, and it contained the CORE Essensces of the Estelar, rather than just aspects, like other worlds get. 'Nerath' is just the name the inhabitants know it by (because why would THEY call it 'the Outlands', or worse, 'Concordant opposition'?) It would also go a LONG way in explaining why Nerath has bits and pieces of other settings all over it - instead of Nerath being 'the echo', its the primary in this theory.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2018 19:27:34
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:25:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

When did the ascended Bane first "come into news" as it were in the Forgotten Realms? Anyone have a date?



The story of Jergal giving the Dead Three his portfolios is old. I first read about it in the ToT novels, so the idea is at least 2e.

As for a date in-universe, there is none saying when they ascended. But we know they killed the primordial Borem in -359 DR, and they were still mortals at the time. (Grand History, p.46)

So, around -355 or -350?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Feb 2018 19:26:55
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:28:45  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the story of them killing Borem I read...I'm just confused a bit by the entire thing though. I thought even a Demi-God could only be permanently killed by someone of equal or greater stature...

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:30:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The story of Jergal giving the Dead Three his portfolios is old. I first read about it in the ToT novels, so the idea is at least 2e.

As for a date in-universe, there is none saying when they ascended. But we know they killed the primordial Borem in -359 DR, and they were still mortals at the time. (Grand History, p.46)

So, around -355 or -350?
So immediately following Netheril's fell? That would make a lot of sense - there was a bit of a 'god vacuum'.

Did you read my edits above concerning Nerath? What do you think? {awaiting Zero telling why that CAN'T possibly be}

EDIT:
Also, Netheril falling could be the reason why Borem was so depowered (if he had a following among them), and why the Dark Three chose that time period to strike.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2018 19:37:38
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:32:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had an idea that a possible candidate for an 'older Bane' may have been the Glandar. He definitely fits the bill.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Yeah, the story of them killing Borem I read...I'm just confused a bit by the entire thing though. I thought even a Demi-God could only be permanently killed by someone of equal or greater stature...

There is my really weird, completely homebrew theory that Kiputytto was with them - she was hoping to get her own divinity back (but they double-crossed her and locked her away in a submerged tomb).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2018 19:34:55
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:43:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Except, you haven't covered why our Bane has a recent ascension myth (which is pretty central to a lot of our lore, so we can't just pretend it never happened). If Xvim is still around it affects everything; if he is dead, your methodology is simpler. But if he is still alive, then why would THE Bane send another avatar to FR?


As you said, FR Bane was the Bane avatar of the Realms. THE Bane had no presence in the Realms because "he wasn't aware of them". Then, he discovered the Realms, saw this mortal that made him remember his Achra days, and when the guy got Jergal's power, The Bane sent his essence to bond with it and transformed him in the Bane of the Realms.

Perhaps The Bane arranged the stuff with Jergal, so to create a Bane in the Realms.

Then Torm kills FR Bane, we got Xvim (whatever he is:_ son of Bane, FR Bane reborn, a pretender, etc.). And in the 1370s, The Bane just says "I better go myself there and do stuff my way". Thus killing Xvim, and taking advantage of the cult of Bane to take a place in the Realms (or converting Xvim into new aspect, if you like more that option).

I do like this spin... and is how I picture it happened in my Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I also hate giving Bane to Nerath (I prefer their Bane also just being an aspect of THE Bane).


The stuff with Nentir Vale's Bane is that he is old. He was there in the Dawn War and stuff, so it makes sense to say "he was the first", because the lore.

But the same Nentir Vale lore also says that Achra, or the Nentir Vale's Bane, is also an ascended mortal (one of the first mortals) who killed a former god of war during the Dawn War and stole his powers to ascend to godhood. This former war god was Tuern, a chaotic god of fire, war and conquest.

So, Tuern is probably one of the original aspects of the War God (the Uberstar), just like Ares and Hextor are in other worlds. And Achra killed him, ascended to godhood and became the first aspect of the War God to be called be Bane.

Remember that, in the whole lore of the Dawn War, this is not the first time a mortal became a god by killing a previous god. Nerull (a mortal necromancer, and the first human student of Corellon) ascended to godhood by killing Aurom (the original deity of life and death) and stole her/his* power over dead.

The Raven Queen (a mortal sorceress queen) in turn ascended to godhood by killing (the Nerath's aspect of) Nerull, and stealing his powers.

*Aurom is so old, that we don't know her or his gender.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Yeah, the story of them killing Borem I read...I'm just confused a bit by the entire thing though. I thought even a Demi-God could only be permanently killed by someone of equal or greater stature...



Borem is not really dead. The Dead Three stole his heart and hide it far away from its body, in a island. Without his heart, Borem cannot revive.

There is an adventure about this in Faiths & Pantheons (3e).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Feb 2018 19:48:53
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