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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  19:53:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea that THE Bane was working with Jergal (each 'using' the other). That really works for me.

Aurom would have predated the concept of 'sexes' (or just sex, even) - procreation wasn't a thing in the Before Time. Only when death was introduced, do you need the accompanying concept of birth.

As for Borem - Nothing ever really dies, not even mortals. The only thing that happens is the 'fleshy housing' gets stripped away.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
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USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  21:18:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Yeah, the story of them killing Borem I read...I'm just confused a bit by the entire thing though. I thought even a Demi-God could only be permanently killed by someone of equal or greater stature...



Check the 3e Faiths and Pantheons. A big part of that was supposedly the Jathiman dagger, which was created by a group of arcanists (the Netherese Cult of Jathiman) who thought they could create a weapon that would allow them to even affect gods with brute force (before Jergal destroyed them all and then let said weapon fall into the hands of Bane). Granted, it doesn't explain the "how" in the weapons description, but it must essentially do something.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dalor Darden
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3593 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  21:54:17  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, a Demi-God CAN be slain (permanently) by an artifact...so yeah, I guess the dagger would work.

I just always got the feeling that there was some sort of divine spark to Bane all along...

AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31303 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  22:52:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why not go the other way? Maybe Nentir Bane is an offshoot of FR Bane... Maybe Xvim wasn't the only Baneson. Xvim took Daddy's place in the Realms, while Nentir Bane (NenBane?) went a different route.

Sure, the timing is wrong, but we've had wonky time issues, before. I'm obviously biased towards my idea, but I also lean towards the original Core/Setting stance that Core may say one thing, but Setting trumps Core, with regards to that setting. Saying that Core trumps Setting or that they are one in the same presents too many issues, to me. (The Core/Setting conflict is part of what led me to my idea of multiple layers of the Prime Material Plane)

Alternatively, maybe NenBane and FR Bane 1.0 were both the offspring of some original Bane (Bane Prime?), that is either no longer around or who has assumed a different name.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  00:00:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Bane can be the concept of the god of war. Or "Uberstar" of War, as Markustay would call it.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  03:28:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, its Ubertar, as in Uber-Avatar. (no 'S')
What I call the penultimate avatar of an archtype (which I am NOW thinking there is only one of those per sphere - and all the rest in the sphere are just aspect-avatars. So I guess an Ubertar is an aspect of the archtype itself - the most 'correct' version (unless too many of its avatars turn to far from the original, which could, in theory, affect the Ubertar - the whole 'dogma' thing, where mortal worshipers can make cosmic changes based upon beliefs). BUT, the whole purpose of the Ubertar is to make sure that doesn't happen, so its not really doing its job if some its client-avatars are straying from the pan. However, small but constant changes spread over thousands of years could be subtle enough to 'sneak up' on a god unawares, so that it doesn't even realize its been changing.

For example, lets say Talos WAS an avatar of the original Over-Gruumsh, except over time he stopped being 'Gruumshy' enough. Maybe its because he absorbed too many other avatars into himself (those 'small changes' I was just talking about). Didn't he absorb Garagos? That may have made him 'too human', until he was practically a human-only deity. Then a more 'pristine' avatar of Gruumsh comes through the Orcgate, and he immediately decides that he has to start working against Talos (in the background, at first - he is the 'new kid on the block' on this world). The Orcs of Faerūn have gone for too long not even worshiping Gruumsh, or just paying him lip-service. I am not saying that IS what happened, but I am saying its within the realm of possibility - Gods change over time, and other version of that same god might not be okay with that. Hell, there could even be a world where Lolth is worshiped as the snuggly cutie-goddess of rainbows and unicorns (although as soon as 'Momma Lolth' finds out that adorable little goddess is going to spend an eternity wishing she had been pulling wings off of butterflies instead).

Because WORSHIP is a two-way street, a conduit that links the God directly to its followers. Their beliefs become the God's reality, over time. Tha'ts probably why primordials don't like to take on the 'deity' template. Easier just to get some dupe-god to poise as the primordial (as a God) and they 'split the profits'.

I am starting to think of Gods as corporations... DIVINE corporations. A primordial is like a single-business owner. Vulnerable to direct confrontations, but protected from more esoteric matters. Deities are like corporations because although you can't be 'touched' (sued, etc.) individually - the avatars are your 'board of directors' - you become vulnerable in other ways (like a 'hostile takeover'). So, tons of benefits to incorporating yourself (getting a religion), but just don't give-up too many of your 'shares', else you get fired from your own company (another god steps in and takes over your faith). I am sure this sort of thing happens a lot.

I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know that's really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.

And don't even get me started on the "Mystra-of-the-Month" club.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 08:50:30
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31303 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  03:31:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know thats really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.





Even if she did, she'd be back after Ao hit the Divine Reset button... But man, I like that idea!

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2239 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  04:05:03  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worship is an interesting thing, because you have gods existing before their followers, but once they get followers, they have a chance to become more powerful the more followers they gain (at least post-ToT), but it also means the are "bound" in a way they weren't before. They have to adapt/change as their followers do. I believe the impact of this can vary from deity to deity as some deities are more "timeless" than others. To use the corporation example, some corporations can weather change (either because they adapt, or are just unaffected), and others can't.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  09:06:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know thats really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.



Even if she did, she'd be back after Ao hit the Divine Reset button... But man, I like that idea!

Here's the thing - what did Ao do? We know he moved around a LOT of topsoil (actually, he got Grumbor to do that). He brought people back from Abeir (and Maztica... they were a 'package deal' for some reason), but that's no big deal for him. He twinned the worlds in the first place. But did he REALLY bring back Gods? The mortals seem to thin so...

As I proposed elsewhere, why couldn't Ao just tell Gruumsh to create a Talos-avatar and that was it? As ZeromaruX surmised, why can't 'returned Bane' just be the core Bane from Nerath (or wherever)? Mystra doesn't even count - he just reboots the Weave and slaps a mortal onto that and says, "Wallah! New Mystra!" How do we know any of them are the same 'people' we lost?

Or the idea I've been playing with for my version of Katshaka (and Maztica) - the returned Tyr has a shiny new Silver Hand. One guess who that really is. Thus, 'Tyr reborn' is really just another god that's been 'waiting in the cue'. Of course, this last bit isn't canon - just some fun I'm having (Oghma and Sylvanus - and maybe Gond - would love it ), but its just an example of how we can spin things - all of these 'returned Gods' could just be a scam the Gods are running on us.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2239 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  17:33:51  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it was indicated in some instances (such as with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), that they didn't actually die. Also, since it is hard to "permanently kill" a deity, it is likely that the "dead gods" were able to return, thanks to whatever AO did.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  17:54:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know... One of the problems with the whole "all the gods are back!" schtick is that some of the gods have been replaced -- so bringing back old ones causes issues.

It occurs to me that maybe instead of putting them back in their original places, he instead gave the fallen a second chance. Restore them to life, with a toehold on divinity, and then sit back and leave them alone to rise back to prominence or fall once more.

It's still problematic, but it's a better approach than what we've been given, thinks I.

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2239 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  18:07:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that is why some of the portfolios have been rearranged, like with Myrkul and Kel. They are both "death gods", but they govern (if you will) different aspects of death. So, you have more gods sharing space, but they aren't fighting over the same domain, because they have aspects of that domain in their portfolio.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  18:21:04  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I think there should be as many Gods as Mortals can dream up.

It always bothered me, for example, that Tempus was the ONLY Greater God of War. Why can't there be a Lawful Neutral God of War that is a Greater God? Tempus just always struck me as too chaotic.

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  18:22:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know... One of the problems with the whole "all the gods are back!" schtick is that some of the gods have been replaced -- so bringing back old ones causes issues.

It occurs to me that maybe instead of putting them back in their original places, he instead gave the fallen a second chance. Restore them to life, with a toehold on divinity, and then sit back and leave them alone to rise back to prominence or fall once more.

It's still problematic, but it's a better approach than what we've been given, thinks I.

Yeah, especially with the Raven Queen - she steps on way too many toes. I think it may be better in the long run if they just say that she killed Auril and took her stuff (so our current Auril is really her, thus the personality-switch). And turning Auril into the QoA&D in the first place has given me so many problems, although I've grown to love it. At this point the easiest way to handle it is to just say that the Queen of Air & Darkness is just a title (which it is, actually), and several have already worn that crown.

Hmmmmm... we actually don't know who the Raven Queen was before she showed up on Nerull's doorstep. It could be that is where the half-crazed Titania's sister wandered off to. That would be a very elegant solution... except then where does our Auril fit in? Unless... the first time we heard about Auril being the QoA&D was in 4e, at the exact same time the Raven Queen was introduced. If we just ignore Brian James' 'Aurilandur' thing, it all works. Our 'old' Auril was NOT the QoA&D. Nothing ever said she was... until 4e when the Raven Queen appeared. tRQ killed her and took her stuff? (and if we really need to keep the Aurilandur thing, we could just say that THAT was THE corrupted aspect... although she should not have had aspects that far back in the timeline, methinks).

Something convoluted like, "When Aurilandur donned the crown, she felt the dark Energies corrupting her mind, and in desperation, she 'purged' that part of herself that had been corrupted" - thus splitting into Auril and Andur (like a Transporter malfunction! LOL) Auril was the evil part, and went to the Realms, to sit and brood. 'Andur' wanders a bit, winds up in Nerull's realm, and he calls her Nera (because she doesn't even recall her own name - most of her memories are gone), and then she kills him and takes his stuff, and thats how the Raven Queen came to be (she knew she was a Queen, she just couldn't remember who).

And if I wanted to really go crazy, I could still slip Kiaransalee into all this. Kia was a 'Chosen' of Aurilandur - one of those Incarnation-thingies like we had in the OE. She kept a piece of herself stored there. Or, as I've said elsewhere, Kiaransalee got ahold of a piece of the Regalia of Winter, and it was a relic-level item (they all should be artifacts), and part of Aurilandur's memories were stored in that (part of what she did when she purged 'Auril' from her mind - great swaths of her memories were pushed into the Regalia). So Aurilandur gets fragmented (goes crazy), and Kiaransalee gets a piece of her mind (either via the 'Chosen' thing - which doesn't feel right to me - or through a piece of the Regalia, which makes more sense, IMO, mostly because of timeline issues with all of that). At the tail-end of 3e Kiaransalee is 'wiped from everyone's mind', and the Epic Ritual has the unforeseen side-effect of sending that bit of Aurilandur's mind BACK to the Raven Queen... and she suddenly remembers who she is. She show up in FR during the Spellplague, kills Auril (her evil half) - or reabsorbs her - and now she IS Aurilandur again, and she is looking for the last pieces of her Regalia which contain the rest of her memories.

Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week. Try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitress.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 18:26:09
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  19:18:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the fact is that NOT all the gods are back. The only gods that are back are those a DM wants back in his Realms, plus a few popular ones (the ones listed in the SCAG). But for instance, Ubtao is not back in canon (according to ToA). What means that, in canon, not all gods are back.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  01:46:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Personally, I think there should be as many Gods as Mortals can dream up.

It always bothered me, for example, that Tempus was the ONLY Greater God of War. Why can't there be a Lawful Neutral God of War that is a Greater God? Tempus just always struck me as too chaotic.



Yeah, that's why I love the Red Knight and have started her down the path as a goddess of spell strategy who also serves Mystra. I figure that this concept of all lesser gods serving only one master is a bit of a broken concept. Why can't Deneir serve Mystra AND Oghma, for instance? So, long as the deities aren't enemies, (like Shar and Mystra), it shouldn't be a problem.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  02:01:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I mean, we know Auril is acting different... how do we even know thats really her? She may have died at the onset of the spellplague and no-one's the wiser.



Even if she did, she'd be back after Ao hit the Divine Reset button... But man, I like that idea!

Here's the thing - what did Ao do? We know he moved around a LOT of topsoil (actually, he got Grumbor to do that). He brought people back from Abeir (and Maztica... they were a 'package deal' for some reason), but that's no big deal for him. He twinned the worlds in the first place. But did he REALLY bring back Gods? The mortals seem to thin so...

As I proposed elsewhere, why couldn't Ao just tell Gruumsh to create a Talos-avatar and that was it? As ZeromaruX surmised, why can't 'returned Bane' just be the core Bane from Nerath (or wherever)? Mystra doesn't even count - he just reboots the Weave and slaps a mortal onto that and says, "Wallah! New Mystra!" How do we know any of them are the same 'people' we lost?

Or the idea I've been playing with for my version of Katshaka (and Maztica) - the returned Tyr has a shiny new Silver Hand. One guess who that really is. Thus, 'Tyr reborn' is really just another god that's been 'waiting in the cue'. Of course, this last bit isn't canon - just some fun I'm having (Oghma and Sylvanus - and maybe Gond - would love it ), but its just an example of how we can spin things - all of these 'returned Gods' could just be a scam the Gods are running on us.



He's the god of my own creation? Anachtar?

Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf - This god is believed to be a half-brother of Thoros. He seeks to intermediate disputes between the gods, and his followers often serve similar roles within the Metahel clans. However, when resolution cannot be achieved, the blood oath is taken in Anachtar's name, resulting in feuds that have been known to decimate clans. This noble god is noted as having a single hand because of his own selflessness, though its also noted that he's had a mechanical hand constructed by dwarves to take its place. The story is that he lost it in chaining Kezris, the Spirit-Wolf. This has caused a log of friction between himself and Valigor, for he blames the trickster god for bringing the great wolf into the world.


LOL, no, you're probably thinking Nuada of the Silver Hand of the Celtic Pantheon.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7253 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  02:07:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know... One of the problems with the whole "all the gods are back!" schtick is that some of the gods have been replaced -- so bringing back old ones causes issues.

It occurs to me that maybe instead of putting them back in their original places, he instead gave the fallen a second chance. Restore them to life, with a toehold on divinity, and then sit back and leave them alone to rise back to prominence or fall once more.

It's still problematic, but it's a better approach than what we've been given, thinks I.

Yeah, especially with the Raven Queen - she steps on way too many toes. I think it may be better in the long run if they just say that she killed Auril and took her stuff (so our current Auril is really her, thus the personality-switch). And turning Auril into the QoA&D in the first place has given me so many problems, although I've grown to love it. At this point the easiest way to handle it is to just say that the Queen of Air & Darkness is just a title (which it is, actually), and several have already worn that crown.

Hmmmmm... we actually don't know who the Raven Queen was before she showed up on Nerull's doorstep. It could be that is where the half-crazed Titania's sister wandered off to. That would be a very elegant solution... except then where does our Auril fit in? Unless... the first time we heard about Auril being the QoA&D was in 4e, at the exact same time the Raven Queen was introduced. If we just ignore Brian James' 'Aurilandur' thing, it all works. Our 'old' Auril was NOT the QoA&D. Nothing ever said she was... until 4e when the Raven Queen appeared. tRQ killed her and took her stuff? (and if we really need to keep the Aurilandur thing, we could just say that THAT was THE corrupted aspect... although she should not have had aspects that far back in the timeline, methinks).

Something convoluted like, "When Aurilandur donned the crown, she felt the dark Energies corrupting her mind, and in desperation, she 'purged' that part of herself that had been corrupted" - thus splitting into Auril and Andur (like a Transporter malfunction! LOL) Auril was the evil part, and went to the Realms, to sit and brood. 'Andur' wanders a bit, winds up in Nerull's realm, and he calls her Nera (because she doesn't even recall her own name - most of her memories are gone), and then she kills him and takes his stuff, and thats how the Raven Queen came to be (she knew she was a Queen, she just couldn't remember who).

And if I wanted to really go crazy, I could still slip Kiaransalee into all this. Kia was a 'Chosen' of Aurilandur - one of those Incarnation-thingies like we had in the OE. She kept a piece of herself stored there. Or, as I've said elsewhere, Kiaransalee got ahold of a piece of the Regalia of Winter, and it was a relic-level item (they all should be artifacts), and part of Aurilandur's memories were stored in that (part of what she did when she purged 'Auril' from her mind - great swaths of her memories were pushed into the Regalia). So Aurilandur gets fragmented (goes crazy), and Kiaransalee gets a piece of her mind (either via the 'Chosen' thing - which doesn't feel right to me - or through a piece of the Regalia, which makes more sense, IMO, mostly because of timeline issues with all of that). At the tail-end of 3e Kiaransalee is 'wiped from everyone's mind', and the Epic Ritual has the unforeseen side-effect of sending that bit of Aurilandur's mind BACK to the Raven Queen... and she suddenly remembers who she is. She show up in FR during the Spellplague, kills Auril (her evil half) - or reabsorbs her - and now she IS Aurilandur again, and she is looking for the last pieces of her Regalia which contain the rest of her memories.

Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week. Try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitress.



This has potential (her being an incarnation) Kiara Unseelie... Kiaraunseelie... Kiaransalee.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Feb 2018 02:09:36
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LordofBones
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786 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  06:15:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kiaransalee does actually have a canon backstory, being a necromancer-queen from the prime world of Threnody and is at least 30,000 years old. She's not native to the Realms; she only entered the drow pantheon after Lolth was cast into the Abyss.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  07:48:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Kiaransalee does actually have a canon backstory, being a necromancer-queen from the prime world of Threnody and is at least 30,000 years old. She's not native to the Realms; she only entered the drow pantheon after Lolth was cast into the Abyss.
I allowed for all that.

She was an ambitious dark elf (note: She could not possibly have been Drow 30K years ago), who got a hold of a piece of the regalia of winter - possibly the Crown itself (The Crown of Frost, which later became the Crown of Horns*). My idea here is that somehow, when Aurilandur got hit with the corruption-whammy from the Black Diamond, she tried to fight off the effects (as she felt its tendrils seeping into her mind), and she was able to isolate parts of her persona and disperse them, in attempt to free herself. The uninfected 'Andur' part of her mind was thrust into one her handmaidens, whom she possessed (possibly merged with) and ran screaming from the hall. Other pieces of her mind - mostly her disjointed memories - were pushed into the rest of her Royal Regalia, which vanished (as artifacts are wont to do), except for her royal scepter, which the remaining 'Auril' (the corrupted husk that was left) retrieved and took with her as she went to wreak havoc upon Ladinion (blanketing it in ice and eternal winter). The scepter became her favored weapon over time - "Ice Maiden's Caress" - reforged into a pickaxe by the power of her inner corruption.

*The Frost Crown was lost. A thing of Ice and spikes, to match the one worn be her betrothed, Rellavar Danuvien. It was Rumored to have appeared somewhere in the Taan region after the fall of Imaskar, but where it had been in the intervening years is unknown. It had become a blackened, withered thing, still bearing the huge Black Diamond the dwarves had set there. Today, it is known as the Crown of Horns.

The Ice Necklace appeared at the domicle of a primal power name Uluitiu, and his is an equally sad story. Well, maybe not equally sad... he was playing with fire (something a winter spirit should never do).

The Ring of Winter also appeared on Toril, in southern Faerūn, in the area that would later become Mulhorand. It was discovered by Imaskari survivors fleeing their falling empire, and brought north into the Dalelands. Or so Artus Cimber has discerned (or so he thinks - there is more to the story, but an archmage layered powerful anti-divination magics on the artifact).

The Hoarchoker went to a different world than the other pieces - it wound up in the possession of half-mad and ambitious princess who had dreams of ruling the entire world - Kia-Rahn "Unseelie". The tainted necklace helped her achieve her goals - with it she was able to create Rimewalkers - evil undead born of ice & Cold. After murdering every single dark elf on her own world of Threnody, she ascended to godhood... where she eventually ran afoul of Lolth, and all her dreams & ambitions were crushed by an even darker soul than hers. Today she is known as Kiaransalee, or at least, she would be, had folk not forgotten her, for a time. She still wore the choker as a goddess, but Lolth called it her 'collar', and attached a ring and chain to it, so she could walk her around the Demonweb Pits like an animal. Lolth understood the malignant power inside the artifact, but she was smart enough not to tempt fate by taking it for herself.

The Maid somehow found her way to Nerull's realm, where she eventually killed him and stole his godhood (although rumors of his demise must be exaggerated). He called her Nerath, for she was unable to recall her own name (it may have been Nerath), but she remembered being a Queen for time, or was going to be... she couldn't remember which. When she ascended her new throne in Nerull's realm, two ravens lit upon the top of the chair, and she took that as an omen. She called herself "The Raven Queen', and vowed to find her missing memories, and what had happened to her.

And when Kiaransalee was struck from mortal memory by an epic ritual, that piece her mind - still attached to the choker - went to tRQ, appearing around her neck, as if it belonged there, and memories came rushing back to her. She is Aurilandur, the once-and-future Frost Sprite Queen, The Raven Queen of Air & Darkness, and rightful ruler of the Winter Court of Faerie.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 07:57:47
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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  13:16:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, just to walk out what you're describing, this would have Auril and TRQ as still separate entities, but it would tie TRQ and Kiaransalee together. Now there would be a "tie" between TRQ/Kiaransalee and Auril via the regalia of winter (love the "Hoarchoker"), and neither would be the full-on Queen of Air and Darkness (which the QoA&D doesn't appear as a queen on a throne... she is an area of absence through which a voice speaks to the Unseelie Court). So, perhaps it would be best to have the "regalia of winter" not even be coming from Aurilandur... maybe the QoA&D invested her power into multiple "phylacteries" long ago... and sometime long ago she was shattered, but she lives on in these artifacts and infecting beings of godly power. Like Sauron, she wants to get them all back together maybe... but maybe there are some rules as to HOW she has to do so (thus Auril entreating Artus Cimber... maybe she can't just take the ring of winter). Also, maybe these artifacts create a shadow self for these deities.... like in 4e there was an Archfey who was like a prince of frost, and maybe he is the "reflection" of Rellavar Danuvien. Along these lines, what if Ubtao/Qotal at one point picked up the ring of winter, and thus was born Eshowdow. After all, the ring of winter WAS in Chult, correct? I forget the story there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  14:52:04  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Note that Kiaransalee hailed from a different Prime Material Plane. The entire drow mess we all know is unique to Faerun.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  16:49:50  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Note that Kiaransalee hailed from a different Prime Material Plane. The entire drow mess we all know is unique to Faerun.

Which mess?
L is the drow goddess #1 as far as we know.
K is venerated on a world other than her home, thus she probably has multi-sphere following too.
With V and E, we just don't know for sure how widely they are present.
But L wouldn't have so little hostility toward K if she was among her strongest rivals. From which we may guess she has some bigger fish to fry - deities who probably also got multi-sphere following (to be a serious threat).

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  18:16:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Sleyvas - RIGHT. The dwarves find the Black Diamond (which doesn't effect them - part of their nature is that they are immune to normal {arcane} magic, which is why 'magic' (of the arcane variety) was denied them (there was something about that in some canon piece that appeared n the WotC site years ago, involving the Nether scrolls). Annam (and Ptah) made them to be unaffected by outside magic, so he gifted the Jōtunbrūd (which included the dwarves back then) with Rune Magic. However, they've since lost this 'blessing' - post ToT Ptah (a Supernal - way higher than a God) decided they had changed too much from the original he created, and finally took back their resistance to Arcane Magical forms. Unknowingly, that same resistance had also blocked 'life' energy from the Gaea (because Magic = 'Life'), which obstructed dwarven breeding (which is why their bloodlines became so diluted in the first place - they needed 'outside help'). Once the Arcane ban was lifted from them, they became as fecund as humans (see what I did there? Hope you're watching, Wooly).

ANYWAY... the Feywild dwarves take the Black Diamond and rework the Frost Crown for Auril, and present it to her as a gift (a mild reworking of the canon story). Once she dons it, the power of the Black Diamond - actually a Shard of Pure Evil - drives her insane. Since she is archfey, she is really just energy anchored to a physical form, and calling upon her heritage, she splits her consciousness in two, and flees with the remaining 'sane' part into her handmaiden, who become Andur (then Nerath, and finally The Raven Queen). However, the process wasn't 'clean' - the Shard wsn't letting her go that easily. Fragments of her psyche got blasted into her Royal regalia - all artifacts capable of holding consciousness (although I think it was only in that moment that they became artifacts, except for the Crown, because the Black Diamond was already set in it). This is why both Auril (the remaining evil being who was Aurilandur) and Andur - the handmaiden-turned-archfey - had large swaths of their memory missing.

She is admitted to a little club Lolth helped form - the Primal Furies, composed of two other 'fallen' archfey Araushnee had taken under her wing, and an aspect of Gruumsh. These later form the basis for a psuedo-pantheon on Toril called The Yuir Totems (Auril, Umberlee ("The Coral princess"), Malar (as Magnar, who was actually a primal power of the hunt), and Talramsh (who became Talos after he absorbed Bhaelros). Talramsh was a more orc-like aspect of Grummsh until he got 'watered down' by over-absorbing others, and over time lost his any true connection to the Orcs. Younger aspects of both Lolth and Eilistraee also became part of the Yuir Panthheon.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 18:24:07
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  18:17:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Note that Kiaransalee hailed from a different Prime Material Plane. The entire drow mess we all know is unique to Faerun.

You've actually said pretty-much the same thing in your last post, which I then went onto explain (in detail) in my (purely homebrew) musings.

The fact that she ISN'T from Realmspace actually lends itself to the multispheric natures of the story. If anything, I would like to come up with a reason why the other artifacts all wound up on Abeir-Toril - artifacts, by their very nature, tend to stick around awhile, and then simply disappear, later to appear 'elsewhere' in the multiverse. Some artifacts are more drawn to a particular crystal Sphere because it has ties to it, and thus, is more likely to reappear within that sphere.

The fact that one piece - the scepter-that-became-her-weapon - stayed behind is actually rather elegant. Being artifacts, they 'scattered' - so many in close proximity to each other would set-off all sorts of 'cosmic alarms', thus the 'extras' were all shunted away.

My thoughts here are that artifacts not only resonate with a certain Sphere or plane, but also with people. Thus, when Vecna was not in Greyspace and was in Ravenloft, there was a much higher % chance that his artifacts would materialize there. So, once Auril (the 'corrupted husk' of the original Aurilandur) fled into Realmspace, The other items eventually found their way there as well (except for the necklace/choker that appeared in Kiaransalee's boudoir). In fact, we could even involve the multispheric Imaskari (whch was my plan anyone) - the ring of Winter did NOT materialize in Realmspace - it was brought there from another world by the Imaskari. That alone was a major feat, because artifacts normally do not allow themselves to be taken outside of a Crystal Sphere - the tend to just disappear if that happens. But if anyone would figure-out how to do that, it would be the same group that figured-out how to erect a field that would stop gods from entering a Crystal Sphere (what stops one thing from going in one direction, could stop others things from going in the other). I have a LOT more to go with this, but its part of my personal Imaskari lore - suffice it to say that Halaster took the ring with him when he left and founded Thaeravel (which is why it was later found where it was).

Auril probably went to look for the other pieces after she was done wreaking havoc in Ladinion, and the first she was able to locate was the Ice Broach, which Ulutiu fashioned into his necklace (because I don't want two neck-pieces for the regalia, and I don't want to loose the Hoarchoker - artifacts do tend to change their form on occasion). So she goes to Toril, only to find the necklace is trapped, and so there she stays, Other artifacts eventually 'follow', but she is focused on the necklace in the glacier (she's pretty manic).

And all of this has given me an idea to add to my ever-growing Imaskari lore - the Imaskari collected artifacts from other worlds. It may even be how they were empowering their Godwall. They didn't so much make the Imaskarkana - they adapted stolen artifacts with their own magic, transforming them into the Imaskarna (thus, I reversed the canon on them - the Imaskarkana don't take the form of artifacts, they always were the artifacts. The Imaskarkana part was simply 'imprinted' on them).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 01:42:11
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