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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 21:19:00
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Not all of Tolkien's orcs were necessarily descended/transformed from fey.
And orcs don't live long but they do have a tendency to multiply alarmingly. So regardless of the origin of the orc species, the vast majority of orcs in Middle Earth "today" are descended from orcs of long ago.
Tolkien's later writings (and canonical Legendarium) described the various orcs of Middle Earth as once being Elves - which Melkor enslaved and cruelly twisted into hateful, murderous, destructive creatures.
"They were Elves, once. Taken by the Dark Powers. Tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life."
Saruman (a Maia, demigod-/angel-like spirit) dedicated himself to studying orcs, the Black Speech, and many other dark arts so that he might better oppose Sauron - but he was eventually corrupted by this fell knowledge and devised his own variation of Melkor's ancient methods to transform captured Elves into armies of Uruk-hai orcs at Isengard (as seen in the movies) in his own attempt to seize possession of the One Ring.
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Tolkien's earlier writings (presented in various collections and early/incomplete revisions of the Silmarillion) described a similar process used by Morgoth (as Melkor was then called) but with the added element of infusing/tainting immortal Elven fėa (the "Secret" or "Imperishable" Fire of Ilśvatar's spirit, their own living spirit or soul) with "another flame, one hissing and burning baleful in unfathomed shadow, from a blighted and lifeless place beyond Eä and Arda, beyond Being, beyond the Timeless Halls and the gates of the Outer Void". Morgoth (fallen high-god) could not create life, he could not infuse it with a "flame" (spirit) as only Ilśvatar (creator overgod) could ... so he found another "flame" from somewhere else beyond all of creation. This is more profound and fundamental than merely corrupting Elves into orcs, it is an unredeemable mutilation of their eternal essence and an offense to Ilśvatar (who created all of Being, and all Elves, and all mortal and immortal spirits including Melkor himself) - it is even a dangerous violation against all of existence. Morgoth also burned his lieutenant Sauron with this dark flame, often as punishment, and Sauron succeeded him in later ages - this was meant to explain how Sauron (once Mairon, the brightest of the Maia, basically a demigod) could be filled with such darkness and hate and evil that he eventually surpassed the capacities of Morgoth himself (once Melkor, the brightest of the Vala, basically the most knowledgeable and powerful of all gods except the creator overgod Ilśvatar, indeed he was the guy who invented evil).
I suspect this additional detail was removed from Tolkien's subsequent work (by Tolkien or by some other editor) to comply with real-world religious views, personal or public. Monotheistic religions tend to prefer one and only supreme divinity in charge of making or breaking eternal souls, the notion of perverting divine souls or of creating them from other non-divine means is probably a little too heretical for comfortable reading (or at least it may have been in previous decades).
...
But at least one version of the old Silmarillion presents yet another story for the origin of orcs.
Elves were the first Children of Ilśvatar, a manifestation of the Music of the Ainur (all the gods and angels) brought into being and given immortal spirits by Ilśvatar (supreme overgod, and the only being in the cosmos which could grant true life by igniting it from part of his own eternally burning spirit).
Mortal men were the kindred Children of Ilśvatar but would not come to the world (as the world wasn't ready for them) until the beginning of the First Age, many many thousands of years later.
Dwarves were made by Aulė (an Ainur, a Vala, and an Aratar: basically the high-god of stone, metal, substance, invention, and craft), who was impatient and unwilling to wait for Men to appear in the world. Aulė's craft was "flawed" in some ways but benevolent Ilśvatar ignited the spirits of this new race, gave them his blessings, and accepted them as "adopted" Children - while also decreeing that they would have their own fate separate from his other Children, and that they would sleep (for ages) until his first Children (the Elves) awoke and lived for a time upon the world.
And Aulė's skills at worldly craft was second only to Melkor's (and Ilśvatar's, of course). They had cooperated before (building continents and mountains and stuff) and they had conflicted before (as Melkor tended to be competitive, jealous, and spiteful). But there eventually came a time when Melkor's many challenges and evils and crimes against his peers and against the world could no longer be overlooked, no longer be tolerated, his iron crown was reforged into a great chain (by Aulė), he was cast out of Arda (basically "heaven"), and he took the name Morgoth, as the first Dark Lord.
So far this is all consistent with the (newer) canonical versions. In which Morgoth then existed in the Timeless Void, he was unable to act directly upon the world but could influence it in subtle and increasingly malign ways, and he continued to interact directly with Sauron and his other bodiless servants.
But in the older version Morgoth was not cast into the Timeless Void, he was exiled to the world. Where, consumed by intense rage and raw hatred of incomprehensible magnitude he worked ceaselessly upon his forge under the mountains in Mordor. He shaped his fire and anger and hate and blood and pain and sorcery and iron (from his own chains) into the first orcs. He returned to this forge several other times and created many evils - forging the first dragons, the fell beasts upon which the Nazgūl rode, an interesting sword or two, the Rings of Power, and of course the legendary One Ring - but none of these evil constructs were ever as inspired as his first and "finest" creation of purely malevolent genius. The orcs.
(These things, especially the Rings of Power, were explicitly given somewhat different origins in newer writings. For the sake of consistency, I suppose. Remember that Tolkien's older writings were very disjointed and contradictory and incomplete, probably even messier than Ed's Realmslore notes, lol - certainly unfit for publication when taken "as-is" - so specific details may have been lost or emphasized in subsequent revisions as the "best" compromises in an endless series of compromises. I don't envy the job of curating such a mess, I only lament that some of these "interesting" bits got cut.)
...
I also note that, like Elves and Men and most other races in Middle Earth, the first orcs were the most "pure" and "noble" paragons of their kind. They enjoyed very long lifespans (in theory), they spoke eloquently, they were skilled and cunning and intelligent adversaries, they were taller and stronger and tougher and better and more ferocious and basically classier than orcs of later ages. But, like Elves and Men and Dwarves, they became weaker and more diluted and had shorter lifespans with each passing generation, although this effect is less noticeable in Elves (largely because there haven't been many generations of them) but has turned into a great contrast between "modern" dumb-rampaging-beast orcs vs "legendary" epic-warlord orcs. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jan 2018 22:31:24 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*This last part I added, to give some more depth to the fey/Orc myths. I don't know the Scro well-enough to know if they already had their own myths.
Scro acknowledge that they come from orcs:
"The scro trace their ancestry back to the orc tribes that fought and lost the Unhuman Wars. Some crews and troops of the few surviving orc vessels made their way to a remote but habitable planet and settled down."
So they worshiped the same gods and mostly have the same historical memory. Scro are just superior because of seemingly unique circumstances allowing their leader to change the focus of their mindset. They worship just one god now I think though.
EDIT: needed to clarify that the Scro used to worship the standard orc gods...but now seem to only worship their Demi-God former leader. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 08 Jan 2018 22:49:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:33:03
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The other thing I left out is that even before the Seelie/Unseelie split, they were also divided by class - The Nobles (Trooping Fairies), and the smaller, usually more random kind - Commoners, or 'Duende' (Brownies). However, unlike RW nobility (but very much like FR/fantasy nobility), there was upward social movement, based upon power, If one of the small ones amassed enough power (got old enough or simply 'leveled' in D&D terms), it could be accepted into the ranks of the nobility, although never according the same respect of stature the Noble Trooping Fairies (LeShay) do.
A third type which sages have been arguiing over since the beginning of time (to no avail) are the Sprites - the tiny Fairies that are native to the Feywild. If you ask the Eladrin or Elves they'll just say, "they were always here", and that is probably as close to the truth as you will get. Unlike the True Fey who are actually interlopers, the tiny nature spirits of the Feywild (once the Giantlands) have always just appeared, out of the 'planestuff' of the plane itself, and they come in an enormous variety of shapes and sizes (but all smaller than the diminutive Fey Duende). Although the fey consider them 'kin', in truth, they are not. If anything, its just one more way in which the Fey want to claim the Feywild was always theirs. The Eritch Giants know the Sprites have always been there, in their ancient homelands, but most regarded them as 'pests', at best. Except for the Dverge (dwarves), who tried to get along with wee folk.
So the we had three main groups (who were pretty diverse within their groups as well), and all three made the choice of Seelie or Unseelie (there is also a twilight Court, but this isn't really supposed to be about the Fey). This was originally based upon who remained in Fairie* with Corellon, and who followed Gruumsh, and either left Fairie altogether, or became 'the hidden ones'. Although the Sprites also chose which path they followed, because they weren't truly fey (although if you ask THEM, they'll say they are the ONLY true Fey), they were free to come and go as they pleased, everywhere. Even the gods know you cannot contain the freedom-loving and mischievous sprites. Unlike the other two, who make violent war on one another, Sprites of both camps can be found living near each other, in peace (they may even trade, but you will never find them within the same settlement). And although all the others are often lumped together under the heading 'goblinoids' (even the Orcs, on occasion), its practically unheard of to do so with the Unseelie Sprites - they are always considered fey, regardless of behavior. You'll also find most Goblinoids will avoid interaction with the little ones, regardless of 'Court' - they tend just to ignore them. Only the most vile goblins will harm a Sprite (like a redcap, and even then, its exceedingly rare).
As for Gnomes, well, not all the dverge (dwarves) left the feywild when the Tautha DeDanann invaded. Some stayed, and many of those interbred with the Duende (small fey), and thats how the gnomes came to be. Truly, they are only 'half fey', but since the non-Fey ancestors were more 'native' to the Feywild than their fey side, everyone just excepts that the Gnomes are full fey. As for the dwarves - they did not have females (like all Jotunbrūd), so after the Dawn War they were forced to mix their bloodline with many others so as not to die-out.
Wait... what? No giant females I said? Well now, thats a tale for another thread.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 22:50:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*This last part I added, to give some more depth to the fey/Orc myths. I don't know the Scro well-enough to know if they already had their own myths.
Scro acknowledge that they come from orcs:
"The scro trace their ancestry back to the orc tribes that fought and lost the Unhuman Wars. Some crews and troops of the few surviving orc vessels made their way to a remote but habitable planet and settled down."
So they worship the same gods and mostly have the same historical memory. Scro are just superior because of seemingly unique circumstances allowing their leader to change the focus of their mindset.
Wellllll... I did say they were just 'myths'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:45:38
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Scro Interlopers in Faerun:
5050
[SJ] A Scro fleet secretly enters Realmspace and begins contacting humanoids on Toril, they provide firearms and smokepowder to the humanoids. (1368 DR)
I haven't found any other notes...but it is obvious that the Scro are interested in Faerun.
I wonder what they may have done since 1368 DR? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:50:50
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So, like, the Orcs of Many Arrows might have Smokepowder M16's now? 
EDIT:
I mentioned the Sharakim earlier, from Races of Destiny. That would be as close as you can find to the original 'pure blood' orcs of the Pre-Gods War era.
I also think the 'lost orcs' from RAS's novels (the ones that once lived alongside dwarves) were of that variety. In the earliest times, before the Eladrin even arrived on Toril, those early Orcs and dwarves shared a common hatred for Fey/Elves (both had pretty-much been kicked-out of Faerie by them)
And when I say 'Faerie', I am talking about a specific region of the Feywild, which now takes up a large part of it. It is the feywild equivalent of the Shadowfell's Domains of Dread - it grows as new Domains are added (and just ike RL, it 'steals' things from the Prime material all the time). The Archfey are the Lords of their Domains. And just like RL and the Plane of Shadows, there is still plenty of room outside of the 'Fairie Lands', includes 'Islands of Mystery', which literally phase in and out of Faerie.
Back to orcs:
There may even be an undiscovered country of Ondonti somewhere in the Feywild, although its hard to say how other fey might react toward them. If there are any Sharakim, they'd be loners - ancient wanderers just looking to be left to themselves. They may even still be bitter over their exile. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 23:04:07 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:56:23
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If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.
If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?
It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 23:16:28
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Why couldn't it be the same world the Scro... oh... wait. yeah... not the same thing. LOL
Too bad, it would have been a nice fit.
IDEA:
On the other hand, it could still work. What if the whole 'racial purity' thing with the Scro isn't even that old. How long ago was the Inhuman Wars? Either we can say its the same world, and that was before those Orcs became Scro, or, if the Inhuman Wars happened back just before the Orcgates opened, then maybe their was a push for the 'master race' of Orcs, and they made major attempts to be rid of all the 'lesser' genetic material (average orcs). In other words, THEY (the Scro Orcs) opened the Gates, and forced their lesser kindred through (at spearpoint).
Do the Scro have the same pantheon as the Orcs? It might be cool to have them worship a 'super-Gruumsh' figure. Like maybe a son of Gruumsh, who killed his father and took his place (which would only be in their mythology, of course). Maybe the aspect of Gruumsh (I just love the idea of a 'Super Gruumsh' LOL) is the cyclops-looking one from old school D&D.
Hmmm... and that just gave me another idea to add to my own (Faerie) lore. When Gruumsh first led his people out of Faerie, they were still in the Feywild, and before they went further and left it completely, Orcs may have lived among the giants for a time (who themselves had been pushed into the remote outskirts of their plane - The Hinterlands). That would explain why Orcs and Giants tend to get along (and maybe even that one-eyed aspect of Gruumsh, which was sometime worshiped by some Cyclops).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 23:18:58 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 23:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why couldn't it be the same world the Scro... oh... wait. yeah... not the same thing. LOL
Too bad, it would have been a nice fit.
IDEA:
On the other hand, it could still work. What if the whole 'racial purity' thing with the Scro isn't even that old. How long ago was the Inhuman Wars? Either we can say its the same world, and that was before those Orcs became Scro, or, if the Inhuman Wars happened back just before the Orcgates opened, then maybe their was a push for the 'master race' of Orcs, and they made major attempts to be rid of all the 'lesser' genetic material (average orcs). In other words, THEY (the Scro Orcs) opened the Gates, and forced their lesser kindred through (at spearpoint).
Do the Scro have the same pantheon as the Orcs? It might be cool to have them worship a 'super-Gruumsh' figure. Like maybe a son of Gruumsh, who killed his father and took his place (which would only be in their mythology, of course). Maybe the aspect of Gruumsh (I just love the idea of a 'Super Gruumsh' LOL) is the cyclops-looking one from old school D&D.
Hmmm... and that just gave me another idea to add to my own (Faerie) lore. When Gruumsh first led his people out of Faerie, they were still in the Feywild, and before they went further and left it completely, Orcs may have lived among the giants for a time (who themselves had been pushed into the remote outskirts of their plane - The Hinterlands). That would explain why Orcs and Giants tend to get along (and maybe even that one-eyed aspect of Gruumsh, which was sometime worshiped by some Cyclops).
The Scro only worship one god that I'm aware of: Dukagsh
The Unhuman war that resulted in the Scro being who they are is the First Unhuman War which started in c4,600 SJ reckoning (918 Dale Reckoning). |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 02:23:21
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Its the name of the god, and the planet? weird.
Interesting backstory though. I guess that's my 'Super-Gruumsh' right there.
I'd have to agree with Wooly, now, about Obould, and the odd take on Gruumsh RAS gave us - that sounds a LOT more like Dukagsh.
Anyway to spin it that FR Gruumsh 'died' some time ago, and was replaced by Dukagsh? Maybe we just had the Talos aspect for awhile, and the Dukagsh came in and absorbed that (possibly during the ToT?) and has been working towards usurping Gruumsh's control of FR's Orcs (which seems to be 'his thing'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 02:28:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.
Only if the orcs told them. And I'm doubting that "how did orcs come to this world?" was a topic of great interest to the scro.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?
Why? Scro have one goal: killing elves. Chasing after a world full of orcs accomplishes nothing for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...
I think they'd only do this if they needed cannon fodder for a nearby world.
Compared to orcs, the scro are a superior race in every way, and they already know that orcish ways led to a lost war. And the scro are so intent on killing elves that a lot of them learn the elvish language, just to taunt elves as they kill them.
Scro will use orcs if it aids in elven genocide, and otherwise they'd ignore them until that genocide was accomplished.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 02:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.
If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?
It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...
And when they DO start looking for this stuff... the orcgates.... they'd discover Thay and their experiments with Neo-Orogs. I wonder how they'd feel about that? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 02:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.
Only if the orcs told them. And I'm doubting that "how did orcs come to this world?" was a topic of great interest to the scro.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?
Why? Scro have one goal: killing elves. Chasing after a world full of orcs accomplishes nothing for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...
I think they'd only do this if they needed cannon fodder for a nearby world.
Compared to orcs, the scro are a superior race in every way, and they already know that orcish ways led to a lost war. And the scro are so intent on killing elves that a lot of them learn the elvish language, just to taunt elves as they kill them.
Scro will use orcs if it aids in elven genocide, and otherwise they'd ignore them until that genocide was accomplished.
They would be interested in using soldiers...just as they have been/are doing in the Second Unhuman War. There is obviously a reason they are contacting humanoids in Faerun and supplying them with weapons.
A world full of orcs with Portals already established could easily be exploited by the Scro to overwhelm Faerun and then use it as a base in the war against the Imperial Elven Navy in Faerun's Crystal Sphere. The cost to the Scro would be minimal as they would simply have to use their magic to open the portals...if there are hordes of orcs on the other side.
If the hordes poured into Faerun and were even able to establish a strong footing; then the Scro would have soldiers for fodder at hand to use against the IEN. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 03:36:15
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Why do they need to conquer Toril to have a base in Realmspace? The cost to the scro is even more minimal if they pick just about anywhere else in the entire sphere.
And orcs are everywhere. If there's a world somewhere with a strong elven presence, there's likely a nearby world with a strong orc presence -- you don't need to go moving a bunch of orcs across the spheres when you can move someone within a system.
And that's assuming you're fighting a purely ground war, anyway. The scro are a space-faring race. They can -- and should! -- ignore conflicts with groundling elves until they've beat the Elven Imperial Navy. That's something groundling orcs are not going to be useful for. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 03:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why do they need to conquer Toril to have a base in Realmspace? The cost to the scro is even more minimal if they pick just about anywhere else in the entire sphere.
And orcs are everywhere. If there's a world somewhere with a strong elven presence, there's likely a nearby world with a strong orc presence -- you don't need to go moving a bunch of orcs across the spheres when you can move someone within a system.
And that's assuming you're fighting a purely ground war, anyway. The scro are a space-faring race. They can -- and should! -- ignore conflicts with groundling elves until they've beat the Elven Imperial Navy. That's something groundling orcs are not going to be useful for.
Proxies are always needed to drain resources. The IEN has responded to the needs of elves on Faerun before...simply sending a team to open a Portal that hordes of orcs could stream through could divert resources away from Realmspace.
It is an age old ploy: use someone else to do dirty work to your benefit.
What do you think they were giving humanoids weapons for if not for this very same thing?
You say the Scro are highly intelligent and I agree. They would use such a tactic to secure their strategic goal of chasing the IEN from Realmspace...where they have already used humanoids to do so in Realmspace Battles. They wouldn't even have to do the fighting...that is what the orcs would be doing on the ground. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 04:47:37
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| That's different from conquering the planet just to have a base. You specifically referred to the scro using Faerūn -- perhaps the most populated place in all of Realmspace -- as a base. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 04:53:36
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| I don't think they'd be able to conquer the planet, but that doesn't mean they could not conquer a little area and use that as a base. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 14:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I don't think they'd be able to conquer the planet, but that doesn't mean they could not conquer a little area and use that as a base.
They could do that...
Or, as I suggested, pick just anywhere else in all of Realmspace, where they don't have to worry about dragons or elven High magi or random wizards or anything else. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 15:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I don't think they'd be able to conquer the planet, but that doesn't mean they could not conquer a little area and use that as a base.
They could do that...
Or, as I suggested, pick just anywhere else in all of Realmspace, where they don't have to worry about dragons or elven High magi or random wizards or anything else.
Indeed - the big plant world Garden would be my guess. High in resources. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 16:21:56
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OK
The Scro would have no reason to use Faerun at all. They were just being nice to the humanoids and giving them weapons... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 17:03:30
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The most important resource to the Scro are 'bodies' - more orcs they can use as fodder. You wouldn't have to conquer a world to get what you want.
And it doesn't have to be detrimental to Faerūn/Toril either - Hordes form-up all the time. What if their purpose is to redirect the hordes? Every time one starts to form, they're like, "C'mon guys! I know where there are TONS of elves we can slaughter! lets go!"
You'd actually be able to get human and other non-elven communities to help with your efforts. "Can you guys spare some supplies? We are trying to move a million orcs - who were going to head in your direction - off-planet." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 21:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
OK
The Scro would have no reason to use Faerun at all. They were just being nice to the humanoids and giving them weapons...
I didn't say that. I said they wouldn't have a need to use it as a base, and that it would be more costly than it was worth.
Establishing a base and riling up the natives are two very, very different things.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 21:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The most important resource to the Scro are 'bodies' - more orcs they can use as fodder. You wouldn't have to conquer a world to get what you want.
And it doesn't have to be detrimental to Faerūn/Toril either - Hordes form-up all the time. What if their purpose is to redirect the hordes? Every time one starts to form, they're like, "C'mon guys! I know where there are TONS of elves we can slaughter! lets go!"
You'd actually be able to get human and other non-elven communities to help with your efforts. "Can you guys spare some supplies? We are trying to move a million orcs - who were going to head in your direction - off-planet."
There's still the issue of transport, and the fact that those orcs are only going to be useful against groundling elves.
A witchlight marauder -- which they did try to get, in canon -- would be far more effective for the ground battles.
But again, the scro are a space-borne force, and their primary focus is space-borne elves. Groundling orcs are not going to be useful, there. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
OK
The Scro would have no reason to use Faerun at all. They were just being nice to the humanoids and giving them weapons...
I didn't say that. I said they wouldn't have a need to use it as a base, and that it would be more costly than it was worth.
Establishing a base and riling up the natives are two very, very different things.
I don't feel you are thinking about the implications of what "riling up the natives" would actually accomplish for the Scro.
For example: the Netherese were HORRID to everyone they met and amassed such a horrible reputation that they were chased out of "space" for their deeds. They were hated by EVERYONE for their actions...and they only held a relatively small area of Faerun as their "base" to operate from.
Now imagine an orc realm in Faerun...even much larger than Many Arrows. Or hell...actually Many Arrows! The Scro, having a central "supply" of ready and willing orcs to kill elves, would have minimal input and maximum benefit from such a situation.
"You boys want to kill elves?"
"YAAAAAAA!!!"
"Just board here!"
That simply for the benefit of opening a portal...I'd say that would be a huge benefit for them.
If the Orc World the Orcs that invaded Faerun came from was still inhabited by hordes of orcs, simply opening the portal would be all it takes for them to pour through and cause havoc at least. If the Scro could open the Portal in The North and have them pour out, there are several realms that could be imperiled.
This is only a side effect of the desires *I* would be looking for as a Scro Leader. The primary result would be a ready force of at least "mercenary" reserves to be used in battle. Cramming a Spelljammer full of orcs as the first wave against enemy ships in boarding actions would be a HUGE benefit...even if the idiots had no idea how to operate in space they would draw fire at the least.
Standard Orc tactics might suck...but when directed by able leaders who use better tactics they can be a focused horde...as Obould proved in his forging of Many Arrows.
If we go by the premise that Obould IS a Scro...then what I'm saying is obvious: the Scro sent agents to Faerun to forge an Orcish Realm they could draw soldiers from for the Second Unhuman War. Many Arrows having "stabilized" into a realm of relative peace only means that the orcs are being taken into Realmspace by Scro to be used elsewhere maybe?
The line of Orc Kings are more than likely the more intelligent Scro perhaps? Keeping the realm stable as an unwitting "vassal state" of the Scro efforts to defeat the IEN... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:38:54
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And you're not going with what I'm saying: the scro are primarily concerned with space-borne elves. Not elves on the ground -- those are a secondary concern. Riling up the groundling orcs helps keep groundling elves focused on the ground, but it doesn't do a damn thing for fighting the elves already in space.
The scro already have their warships, and they're already crewed with scro marines and soldiers that know exactly what to do, when and how to do it, and that won't be in the way before they're needed.
The scro have rejected just about everything about orcish culture. They'd rather have the honor of killing elves themselves rather than rely on the very orcs they have risen above.
Hell, according to the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, the scro want to be the only race in space -- they don't even want orcs there.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And you're not going with what I'm saying: the scro are primarily concerned with space-borne elves. Not elves on the ground -- those are a secondary concern. Riling up the groundling orcs helps keep groundling elves focused on the ground, but it doesn't do a damn thing for fighting the elves already in space.
The scro already have their warships, and they're already crewed with scro marines and soldiers that know exactly what to do, when and how to do it, and that won't be in the way before they're needed.
The scro have rejected just about everything about orcish culture. They'd rather have the honor of killing elves themselves rather than rely on the very orcs they have risen above.
Hell, according to the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, the scro want to be the only race in space -- they don't even want orcs there.
Wooly, here is what I have found regarding the 2nd Unhuman War instigated by the Scro:
quote:
The scro Tarantula Fleet, under the command of Admiral Halker and General Kobas Hamarka Vorr invades and conquers the elven world of Spiral. The scro employed large numbers of goblins and orcs in addition to their scro and ogre marines, but the elves fought back fiercely, even employing zwarths. The scro suffered heavy losses but captured all the elven cities. Despite this, the elven, dwarven, and human natives of Spiral continued to resist the Scro, fighting a guerilla war from the mountains and deep forests of the planet.
{The Maelstrom's Eye, pp 16-29}
[SJ] General Grimnosh of the scro launches an audacious campaign in Winterspace. Commanding the dinotherium ELFBANE, the Sky Shark battalion of scro marines, and a squadron of four bionoid shrikeships Grimnosh's official orders are to disrupt IEN traffic in the Flow outside Winterspace. But Grimnosh and the instectare K'tide plot instead to arm the humanoids of Armistice with spelljamming vessels and destroy the elven presence on Radole within Winterspace before moving on to Realmspace.
quote:
[SJ] The Cloak of the First Pilot Campaign. The scro Tarantula Fleet is approached by the undead Neogi mage Skarkesh, who forms an alliance with them to recover the Cloak of the First Pilot from the Cloakmaster, Teldin Moore. This attempt encompasses four battles, as the Imperial Elven Fleet squadron stationed at the Rock of Bral (previously unaware of the Scro conquest of Spiral) fights to gain the Cloak for its commander, Admiral Uliananon Cirathorn.
The Battle of Ironpiece. The Scro fleet (27 ships strong), along with Skarkesh's pyramid ship, intercepts Teldin Moore aboard the hammership PROBE as it is about to make planetfall on the gnome colony world of Ironpiece. The Imperial Elven squadron (five ships strong) intervenes, and a gnomish fleet from Ironpiece arrives as well, leading to a confusing, three-way battle. When the hours long contest is over, the scro have lost two viperships, three scorpionships, two waspships, and one mammothship. The Elves lost one man-o-war, and had another damaged, and the gnomes lost a sidewheeler and several small spellfighters. This battle is generally seen as a gnomish victory as they drive the other two fleets from their colony world.
{The Maelstrom's Eye, pp89-112}
The Raid on Port Walkaway. Still determined to acquire the Cloak of the First Pilot, the Scro launch a raid on the gnomish naval base of Port Walkaway. The attack is a disaster, as the elves had warned the gnomes of it in advance (hoping to patch up relations after accidentally firing on gnomish vessels in the previous battle). Of the twelve vessels the Scro dispatched on the raid, only five survived. The gnomes lost seven small craft and had two large ships destroyed on the ground, as well as some buildings burned. Teldin Moore fled during the battle on the gnomish experimental vessel PERILOUS HALIBUT, heading for Herdspace.
{The Maelstrom's Eye, 143-156}
The Battle of the Cloaked Ships. Realizing the elves were employing cloaking helms, the scro and Skarkesh developed a powder they could jettison to reveal the men-o-war. When two of the elven men-o-war crept in close to investigate the Tarantula Fleet, this technique was used. One of the men-o-war was destroyed, the other damaged but the scro suffered no losses.
{The Maelstrom's Eye, p158}
The Battle of Herdspace. A final battle is fought in Herdspace as the Imperial Elven squadron and the Tarantula fleets fight over the Cloak of the First Pilot. Losses are severe on all sides. The elves lose two men-o-war and an armada, only one man-o-war of the squadron survives the campaign to return to the Rock of Bral. The Tarantula fleet loses the pyramidship, a squidship, and a scorpionship. Only ten of the original 27 Tarantula fleet vessels survive the campaign to return to Spiral. Admiral Cirathorn of the IEN, as well as the scro commanders Admiral Halker and General Vorr, all perish as well. Teldin Moore and the Cloak of the First Pilot survive to continue his quest.
{The Maelstrom's Eye, pp280-294}
[SJ] Lar, an elven world in a remote crystal sphere, is destroyed by the scro. In the battles around Lar the Elven armada ECLIPSE is destroyed and the elves lose ten vessels for every goblinoid vessel destroyed.
{SJS1 Goblin's Return, p5}
[SJ] A Scro fleet of 75 mantis ships enters Greyspace and teams with the Borka Retribution Fleet. The Imperial Elven Fleet presses the ships of the Sindiath Line into service and intercepts this massive humanoid armada at Borka, giving the battle the title 'The Borka Maneuver'. A prolonged, massive battle ends in the humanoid's defeat and the destruction of all but fifteen of the mantis ships. (582 CY)
{Dragon Annual #1 'Campaign Classics: The Scro', p46}
{War Captain's Companion: Book 1, p20}
[SJ] An IEN Armada is found abandoned in Winterspace by Captain Sirion Windharp of the dolphinship STARFOAM. Its crew had been destroyed by tertiary Witchlight Marauders.
{The Radiant Dragon, pp25, 52}
[SJ] The Battle of Armistice. Grimnosh's squadron of orcish allies escapes the Armistice blockade, destroying the IEN man-o-war WINDWALKER in the process. Their escape is short lived, however, as a brief, brutal battle with the IEN swanship TRUMPETER, an IEN man-o-war, and two Radiant dragons destroys all the ships of the orcish fleet as well as the scro dinotherium ELFBANE. The man-o-war and the TRUMPETER are destroyed as well, and one of the Radiant dragons is slain. Shortly after the battle, a primary Witchlight Marauder is released on Armistice.
{Dragon Annual #1 'Campaign Classics: The Scro', p46}
quote:
[SJ] A Scro fleet secretly enters Realmspace and begins contacting humanoids on Toril, they provide firearms and smokepowder to the humanoids. (1368 DR)
{Dragon Annual #1 'Campaign Classics: The Scro', p46}
quote:
[FR/SJ] Arborianna, a world of elves similar to the gold elves of Toril, is destroyed by the scro. The gods Malar and Lloth rescue a man-o-war full of refugees from Arborianna and present them to Kymil Nimesin as allies against Evermeet. (1369 DR)
{Evermeet: Island of the Elves, p87}
From this it is OBVIOUS that the Scro think strongly about "ground matters" in their war. No Navy can hope to win a war without doing so...and the Scro see this clearly. They use humanoids and ogres CONSTANTLY in their efforts. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 02:27:30
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But it's not their primary goal. Their goal is the domination of space. Going out of their way to get groundling enemies involved does not accomplish winning in space.
All of the stuff you quoted includes exactly one reference to worrying about groundling elves -- giving smoke powder to orcs on Faerūn. This is obviously something to occupy the elves, keeping their eyes firmly on the ground, and away from anything that might be going on over their heads. All the other stuff you mention refers to elves with an established presence in space -- the ones that are a direct threat to the scro.
So they let an already present bunch of groundling orcs keep groundling elves on the ground, and then turned their attention elsewhere. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 02:53:06
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HOWEVER, The Forgotten Realms is known to be a world prolific with Portals/Gates to other worlds (and planes), and THAT could prove very useful - a hell of a lot more efficient than flying through Arcane Space (which is why I never understood why anyone would).
Suppose the Scro wanted to lay a trap for the EIN - just attack Evermeet and let a message get out (or send the message yourself). There are dozens of ways in which I can think having Toril (or a piece of Toril, or at least have established relations with Torillian Orcs) would be very beneficial to Space Orcs (then shouldn't they be Orks, or 'Orkboyz')
As to what you can do with regular orcs in space? Well now, as a very devious DM, I can have tons of fun with THAT. Shrink them down, then tie them to arrows, Fire hundreds of arrows at enemy ship (their are even RW weapons designed to do this all by themselves, without archers, if you like). Magic wears off, enemy has a shipload of very angry orcs to contend with. You could even develop specialized spells to shrink entire groups and encase them in magical balls, which you lob onto the enemy ship (slingers, or mini-catapults, etc - even attached to the front of a ballista). The globe hits and shatters, and you have a boarding party. You don't need to know how to fly spaceships to wreak havoc on one.
Or even just normal boarding actions, which I am sure the Scro prefer over whatever tactics the elves like. Or manning bases (you don't need to know much to stand guard duty, etc.) Why would every single orc in their military need to be a Scro? Seriously, you'd only need the commanders to be. Granted, there is some canon saying they prefer to avoid working with normal orcs, but in a war to the death (genocide), people tend to stop being picky about who their allies are, after awhile. I distinctly recall us and Russia being on the same side once. AND China.
And someone has to build all those ships - you think gnomes are doing it for them? Why waste good Scro when you could have Orcish peons doing the manual labor? Supply lines/trains? You think Scro are growing crops or manning their own pig farms? And other camp followers... like prostitutes. Every army/war has 'em. I'm just not picturing the Scro putting cute little dresses and lipstick on goblins... not when Orcish females will do just fine. I doubt Scro are nearly so picky they won't rut with orc girls. That would mean Scro are pickier than humans. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2018 02:47:02 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 06:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But it's not their primary goal. Their goal is the domination of space. Going out of their way to get groundling enemies involved does not accomplish winning in space.
All of the stuff you quoted includes exactly one reference to worrying about groundling elves -- giving smoke powder to orcs on Faerūn. This is obviously something to occupy the elves, keeping their eyes firmly on the ground, and away from anything that might be going on over their heads. All the other stuff you mention refers to elves with an established presence in space -- the ones that are a direct threat to the scro.
So they let an already present bunch of groundling orcs keep groundling elves on the ground, and then turned their attention elsewhere.
My give up... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 13:20:48
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| I do regret having mentioned the scro at all in this scroll, sorry. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Topic |
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The Orc World
