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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3585 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  16:14:51  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm...so Orcs can breed with just about anything.

It makes me wonder if Orcs are even orcs. I know that sounds weird; but hear me out.

What if the reason they can breed with almost anything is that the original "orc" people were modified intentionally to be able to breed with anything...sort of like a parasitic virus.

Going back a few posts it was mentioned that Orcs invariably seem to destroy whatever habitat they live in. What if "Orc" is a genetic "disease" intended to wipe out civilizations?

A long time ago (over ten years now), in my own campaign world, I took the idea of Orcs but instead used the term Kur from ancient Sumerian. In my campaign the Kur were created by a race I called Aerkay to be rapidly breeding warriors that could destroy the Dwarf (Dwur) race who rebelled and threw out the Aerkay. Eventually the Kur were defeated; but the residual effect of them was the eventual mixing with some of humanity and the creation of the Daerkur (Half-Kur) race...half-orcs.

Back to topic, what if (like Ayrik said) the eventual destination of all orcs is oblivion for whatever world they inhabit if they succeed in becoming dominant? Even if it is a religious aspect that overtakes an orc world; wouldn't sacrifice of enemies and conquest always on the mind lead to the same sort of ruin as is found in Acheron? Originally Acheron was the "heaven" of the Orcs: endless battle-fields upon desolate cubes. I'd picture it easily that the world the Gray Orcs came from was indeed like Acheron.

Per Scro history:

"Like their orcish forebears, scro are fecund." and "The scro trace their ancestry back to the orc tribes that fought and lost the Unhuman Wars." and "Dukagsh is the scro homeworld. It is filled with well-planned cities that house 10,000 to 100,000 scro apiece. Dukagsh is named after the first Almighty Leader of the scro, who helped his people change from savage, bloodthirsty orcs into the well-organized, intelligent warrior race they are now."

Pretty much shows me that Scro are orcs...just BETTER orcs. Perhaps their new homeworld gives them their magic resistance and they may have "selective" breeding programs where the largest bulls mate with the women to increase the physical prowess of their people. I couldn't say for sure...but it is clear they are orcs; even if simply more "evolved" orcs. Sort of like Spelljammer Klingons.

It also reinforces my idea (the Scro do) that orcs are simply a plague that wants to wipe out other species...but that things can (and do) change them at times into a less deadly form of plague.

Which brings me back to the world the Mountain and Gray Orcs of the Forgotten Realms come from.

It could have gone either way after the Gray Orcs came to Faerun. Their "best and brightest" could have been at the forefront of the invading hordes and thus the civilization on their homeworld would have dimmed and perhaps fallen back into savage tribalism...or the portal only opened to one empire and others have now taken its place.

If the world fell to tribalism it may still survive mostly because petty wars between tribal Kings isn't as bad as mighty magical empires unleashing hell on each other.

If, instead, the Empires continued to war against each other, I see something akin to what happened between the Nar and Raumathar and they either destroyed their world almost completely or are perhaps in the process of doing so. Orcs are never satisfied in war. Even if one of their Empires became dominant and wiped out all others, then factions within the remaining Empire would likely war against each other (as the Romans did).

So, looking at it like this after a good deal of thinking, I'm now prone to agree with Ayrik that in whatever way, this Orc World is likely NOT as regimented and stable as the Scro homeworld. It probably is indeed riddled with ruins and horrors...I just have to decide now whether the orcs have fully fell back into full on barbarism...or if instead they have "evolved then fell" in some magical cataclysm of their own making.

AD&D for me!
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

275 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  16:42:38  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden


If the Gray Orcs came from their world in –1076 DR; what might their world be like at 2,500+ years later?



To answer the OP... I would posit that the Orc Homeworld was a dying world that was the result of the colonial Hubris/Betrayal of the Elves & Dwarves, and that the so-called savagery/in-fighting of the Orcs was the result of the colonial powers of the Elves & Dwarves pitting Orc tribes against each other while they stripped the planet of its wealth of natural resources. So, 2,500+ years later this world would be an uninhabitable world, similar to Mars (but with ruins denoting a secret history that explains the animosity between Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs as something other than mythology, although it comports with their cultural creation myths)... The people of the Realms may have seen Fanatical Invading Orc Hordes coming through the OrcGates, but the Orcs certainly perceived themselves as Desperate Refugees fleeing Genocidal Planetary devastation... and as with all things the Truth is somewhere in the middle, they were both Refugees and Invaders.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6563 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  17:35:26  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The orc entries in AD&D monster books also describe orogs. Orogs are generally a little larger, much tougher (more hit dice), and much smarter than common orcs ("low" to "average" to "high" intelligence). They invariably become the greatest leaders and the fiercest warriors. Some speculation is offered about whether (as the name suggests) orogs might be some sort of orc-ogre (or orc-ogremagi?) hybrid, but the main assertion is that orogs are somehow idealized, "noble", and "purebred" orcs (along with the implied assertion that common orcs are all then bastardized mongrels with diluted bloodlines).

Aggressive orcs will take partners at every opportunity, most often by force (since, of course, most humans or demihumans would never willingly offer themselves to an orc or group of orcs).
Half-orcs (of human descent) were a playable race in 1E, and player characters were assumed to be in the "10% or so" of such bestial pairings who are intelligent, attractive (that is, non-repulsive), lucky, and civilized enough to (just barely) function in the fringes of human society. (With the other 90% presumably being "half-humans" within orcish society, if they aren't killed first.)
Orc-blooded tieflings are possible (and said to be "not uncommon") in 2E Planescape, although their orcish characteristics are far less noticeable than their immediately obvious fiendish/outsider ones to most people.
Various 2E materials have categorically stated that it is impossible for orcs to ever sire any offspring with elves or with dwarves (even though orcs can breed with humans while humans can breed with elves or dwarves).
One of the bad old forgotten FR novels actually had an orc paladin in the hero party, along with various plot obstacles in encounters with every orc or non-orc they met who automatically rejected or dismissed the possibility.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jan 2018 17:48:35
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15259 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  17:54:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, since I take a more Tolkienesque approach to my orcs (and one writer ran with that in a Dragon article), my Orcs are originally of Fey stock. And once again (I've mentioned it at least a few times), my whole take on the fey is something close to what was done with them in the Sage of Pliocene Exile (and excellent series, that although is technically scify, reads just like fantasy). This is the take on them from those books -

Fey (Tanu in the novels) have split into two main camps - the Tanu, who are your typical, tall, thin, regal looking Fey, and the Firvulag, who are the monstrous types. This aligns with the whole Seelie/Unseelie thing. The 'magic' in the novels is actually psionics, but in my version its simply 'magick' (a bit different from human or even modern elvish magic), and the Firvulag are better at changing their bodies using it - they purposefully take on the monstrous visages, as their 'art' (not quite accurate, but that's how it all started). The Fey are all about creativity, and living life to its fullest, to the point of full-blown hedonism. This version is pretty close to how they are depicted in folklore - frivolous, and easy to take insult. In the past, some of their number took creativity to an extreme, and just like how some humans in out culture are completely enthralled by the horror genre, those Fey (the Firvulag in the novels, but in D&D they'd just be 'goblinoids') delighted in taking the most horrific forms they could, to the point where it was almost like a contest who could be the most frightening. The other Fey were not at all amused by this, and hence the schism. In the books, some problems arose and the Firvulag (Unseelie) were driven underground, and there they ran into radioactive material, which mutated them. If we wanted to use this, we could spin that as Faerzress, or some other 'Node of Evil'. However, I simply blame the Dawn War,which changed the physics of the universe, and everything became much less malleable... including its inhabitants. Outside the Feywild, fey lost their ability to change form (some still can, to a limited degree, by 'anchoring' themselves to local geographic features or objects). I covered a little of this in my other thread, about giants/dwarves having been able to change size easily. Even in the Feywild, it takes a great deal of willpower to change form and maintain it, so most simply stay in whatever forms are natural to them. The Orcs are/were the Unseelie nobility - those High Fey that chose to leave faerie with their 'unwashed' kindred (the Goblinoids), disgusted by their brethren's hubris. They - like nearly all unseelie, chose to take more brutish forms, and like all the rest of the fey, got 'stuck' that way after the Dawn War. After countless millennia, these have become 'locked' and they are not separate races. This is also why some groups of Orcs - ones that are peaceful and prefer to live in harmony with the land - are STILL classified as 'fey', like the Ondonti.

In the myths, the elves like to say they were created by Corellon's tears, when he wept in the aftermath of the Gods War, when he was forced to fight his brother Gruumsh. The Eladrin (High Fey) claim they were created from the blood of Corellon, shed during his first battle with his brother, before the Dawn War, when the two disagreed on the nature of freedom of expression. The only real truth in that folklore is that the Eladrin (Fey) had come first, and the Elves (low fey) had come later. The Orcs claim to be of the blood of Gruumsh, when he lost his one eye to Corellon's blade. The Scro, on the other hand, tell a different version* - that the first Orcs were created from the sweat of Gruumsh as he battled Corellon that first time, before the two withdrew from the field. When they fought again after the Dawn War, Corellon betrayed Gruumsh and took out his eye, and from that bloody socket ichor dripped, and that is what became the Scro - Gruumsh's righteous determination made manifest. Scholars, of course, say most of these stories are pure hyperbole, fabricated for their religions, and most scholars would be right... mostly.

Orcs today believe that they were wronged in the distant past, mostly by the Seldarine, but also by other gods. Much of their folklore revolve around this theme. They believe that they elves only care for beauty and creativity if it fits their mold - that the elves think they have some right to judge the opinions of others, and find them unworthy. Thus, there may be some truth in the orcish beliefs, for other races have seen this for themselves.

The other problem with Orcs stems from their Fey heritage - they CAN 'mate with anything'. The odd part about this is that the one race that is said to not be compatible (fertility-wise) with Orcs are elves (I'm pretty sure that's OLD canon), but the truth is that the rare times such coupling occur, the child is usually stillborn. Scholars argue as to the reasons for this - perhaps there is some truth to Orc & Elven myths, and that the two races have been 'imprinted' with the fundamental hatred of their parent-gods, and that the unborn child is destroyed by its own self-loathing. Or maybe its something less... divine. Fey are naturally empathic. In fact, the originals were telepathic. Since their true, original forms were pure energy, there was no need for spoken words. As time went on, and the races broke apart and devolved into hundreds of other things, they lost quite a bit of this. Elves still retain a small inkling of this with their communal, and with their magic-circles (Circle Magic originated with the fey) - they can sense things about others who are close to them. Orcs have this too, but they rarely acknowledge it, or even still know about it. For them, its much more primal, and is best seen today in the form of the hordes - it a growing, collective 'mob mentality' that overtakes them, and causes them to become an unthinking horde filled with blood lust. When a few orcs start feeling a certain way about something - or in some rare cases, when powerful leader-type - they can literally 'get into the minds' of the others, and slowly have their own emotional state overwrite those around them. Sages have noticed that if one or two Orcs in a settlement are feeling agitated about something, that agitation with slowly spread its way through the whole group, like an emotional cancer. What neither Elves nor Orcs (Seelie & Unseelie) want to admit is that in this, they are not so different at all. Both wear their emotions on their sleeves, and they are emotionally charged beings. But whereas the orcs will only deal with their emotional state for so long before it manifests as Horde, Elves have more self-control... and it festers. In a thousand year period, Orcs may throw more than a dozen 'Hordes' at other races, accomplishing very little in the long run, but when Elves finally 'have had enough' with a situation, it boils over into wanton destruction the likes of which give the world itself pause. Elves claim to have caused disasters 'by accident'. That "the forces got out of control". The truth is, the subconscious group-mind of the elves wanted it to happen. Their magic IS their Horde, and woe to any group or race that stands in its way. Better the foe that is quick to anger and punches you in the face, then the one who walks away, only to slip through your bedroom window at night, and slit the throats of you and your family. A fey is a fey is a fey... once you wrong them, they WILL get even. 'Seelie' and 'Unseelie' is just a matter of how they go about that.

- Lazarus Ty’miiri, Sage Supreme of the Tower of High Knowledge of Kule



*This last part I added, to give some more depth to the fey/Orc myths. I don't know the Scro well-enough to know if they already had their own myths.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 18:01:18
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

275 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  19:32:12  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay's post about the influence of the Fey on the Orcs of his Realms & the mention of the Ondonti reminded of the additional meaning of the word "Fecund"... The most common definition of the word refers to physical/biological fertility, but the word also refers to metaphysical/conceptual creativity...

I find the concept of aggressive rapist Orcs to be fairly uninspiring & boring, which is why I think it is an Elven idea pushed on the much shorter lived races (or perhaps a result of Elven interference on the Orc homeworld, after all Spelljammer Lore underscores that Elves have tons of bad ideas)... Regardless, the most consistent piece of Lore on the Orcs across ALL the D&D settings and ALL the D&D editions is their predisposition to being Fanatically Religious... Perhaps one of Corellon's dark secrets is that his ascension to divinity was initially reliant upon the worship of Ancient Orcs?

Anyway, I like the idea that the Ancient Orcs were much like the Odonti... But changed to become more like the "classic marauder" 1e/2e Orcs we all know, after the Elves & Dwarves (known Interlopers) introduced the concept of Warfare... But, as the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around", and eventually out of this cultural devastation we see the emergence of the Scro... which comports with the contemporary depiction of "noble savage" Orcs presented in Volo's Guide to Monsters...

Thus, ALL of the various interpretations of the Orcs are true...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6563 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  21:19:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all of Tolkien's orcs were necessarily descended/transformed from fey.

And orcs don't live long but they do have a tendency to multiply alarmingly. So regardless of the origin of the orc species, the vast majority of orcs in Middle Earth "today" are descended from orcs of long ago.

Tolkien's later writings (and canonical Legendarium) described the various orcs of Middle Earth as once being Elves - which Melkor enslaved and cruelly twisted into hateful, murderous, destructive creatures.
"They were Elves, once. Taken by the Dark Powers. Tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life."
Saruman (a Maia, demigod-/angel-like spirit) dedicated himself to studying orcs, the Black Speech, and many other dark arts so that he might better oppose Sauron - but he was eventually corrupted by this fell knowledge and devised his own variation of Melkor's ancient methods to transform captured Elves into armies of Uruk-hai orcs at Isengard (as seen in the movies) in his own attempt to seize possession of the One Ring.

...

Tolkien's earlier writings (presented in various collections and early/incomplete revisions of the Silmarillion) described a similar process used by Morgoth (as Melkor was then called) but with the added element of infusing/tainting immortal Elven fëa (the "Secret" or "Imperishable" Fire of Ilúvatar's spirit, their own living spirit or soul) with "another flame, one hissing and burning baleful in unfathomed shadow, from a blighted and lifeless place beyond Eä and Arda, beyond Being, beyond the Timeless Halls and the gates of the Outer Void". Morgoth (fallen high-god) could not create life, he could not infuse it with a "flame" (spirit) as only Ilúvatar (creator overgod) could ... so he found another "flame" from somewhere else beyond all of creation. This is more profound and fundamental than merely corrupting Elves into orcs, it is an unredeemable mutilation of their eternal essence and an offense to Ilúvatar (who created all of Being, and all Elves, and all mortal and immortal spirits including Melkor himself) - it is even a dangerous violation against all of existence. Morgoth also burned his lieutenant Sauron with this dark flame, often as punishment, and Sauron succeeded him in later ages - this was meant to explain how Sauron (once Mairon, the brightest of the Maia, basically a demigod) could be filled with such darkness and hate and evil that he eventually surpassed the capacities of Morgoth himself (once Melkor, the brightest of the Vala, basically the most knowledgeable and powerful of all gods except the creator overgod Ilúvatar, indeed he was the guy who invented evil).

I suspect this additional detail was removed from Tolkien's subsequent work (by Tolkien or by some other editor) to comply with real-world religious views, personal or public. Monotheistic religions tend to prefer one and only supreme divinity in charge of making or breaking eternal souls, the notion of perverting divine souls or of creating them from other non-divine means is probably a little too heretical for comfortable reading (or at least it may have been in previous decades).

...

But at least one version of the old Silmarillion presents yet another story for the origin of orcs.

Elves were the first Children of Ilúvatar, a manifestation of the Music of the Ainur (all the gods and angels) brought into being and given immortal spirits by Ilúvatar (supreme overgod, and the only being in the cosmos which could grant true life by igniting it from part of his own eternally burning spirit).

Mortal men were the kindred Children of Ilúvatar but would not come to the world (as the world wasn't ready for them) until the beginning of the First Age, many many thousands of years later.

Dwarves were made by Aulë (an Ainur, a Vala, and an Aratar: basically the high-god of stone, metal, substance, invention, and craft), who was impatient and unwilling to wait for Men to appear in the world. Aulë's craft was "flawed" in some ways but benevolent Ilúvatar ignited the spirits of this new race, gave them his blessings, and accepted them as "adopted" Children - while also decreeing that they would have their own fate separate from his other Children, and that they would sleep (for ages) until his first Children (the Elves) awoke and lived for a time upon the world.

And Aulë's skills at worldly craft was second only to Melkor's (and Ilúvatar's, of course). They had cooperated before (building continents and mountains and stuff) and they had conflicted before (as Melkor tended to be competitive, jealous, and spiteful). But there eventually came a time when Melkor's many challenges and evils and crimes against his peers and against the world could no longer be overlooked, no longer be tolerated, his iron crown was reforged into a great chain (by Aulë), he was cast out of Arda (basically "heaven"), and he took the name Morgoth, as the first Dark Lord.

So far this is all consistent with the (newer) canonical versions. In which Morgoth then existed in the Timeless Void, he was unable to act directly upon the world but could influence it in subtle and increasingly malign ways, and he continued to interact directly with Sauron and his other bodiless servants.

But in the older version Morgoth was not cast into the Timeless Void, he was exiled to the world. Where, consumed by intense rage and raw hatred of incomprehensible magnitude he worked ceaselessly upon his forge under the mountains in Mordor. He shaped his fire and anger and hate and blood and pain and sorcery and iron (from his own chains) into the first orcs. He returned to this forge several other times and created many evils - forging the first dragons, the fell beasts upon which the Nazgűl rode, an interesting sword or two, the Rings of Power, and of course the legendary One Ring - but none of these evil constructs were ever as inspired as his first and "finest" creation of purely malevolent genius. The orcs.

(These things, especially the Rings of Power, were explicitly given somewhat different origins in newer writings. For the sake of consistency, I suppose. Remember that Tolkien's older writings were very disjointed and contradictory and incomplete, probably even messier than Ed's Realmslore notes, lol - certainly unfit for publication when taken "as-is" - so specific details may have been lost or emphasized in subsequent revisions as the "best" compromises in an endless series of compromises. I don't envy the job of curating such a mess, I only lament that some of these "interesting" bits got cut.)

...

I also note that, like Elves and Men and most other races in Middle Earth, the first orcs were the most "pure" and "noble" paragons of their kind. They enjoyed very long lifespans (in theory), they spoke eloquently, they were skilled and cunning and intelligent adversaries, they were taller and stronger and tougher and better and more ferocious and basically classier than orcs of later ages. But, like Elves and Men and Dwarves, they became weaker and more diluted and had shorter lifespans with each passing generation, although this effect is less noticeable in Elves (largely because there haven't been many generations of them) but has turned into a great contrast between "modern" dumb-rampaging-beast orcs vs "legendary" epic-warlord orcs.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jan 2018 22:31:24
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3585 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  22:16:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

*This last part I added, to give some more depth to the fey/Orc myths. I don't know the Scro well-enough to know if they already had their own myths.



Scro acknowledge that they come from orcs:

"The scro trace their ancestry back to the orc tribes that fought and lost the Unhuman Wars. Some crews and troops of the few surviving orc vessels made their way to a remote but habitable planet and settled down."

So they worshiped the same gods and mostly have the same historical memory. Scro are just superior because of seemingly unique circumstances allowing their leader to change the focus of their mindset. They worship just one god now I think though.

EDIT: needed to clarify that the Scro used to worship the standard orc gods...but now seem to only worship their Demi-God former leader.

AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 08 Jan 2018 22:49:05
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15259 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  22:33:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The other thing I left out is that even before the Seelie/Unseelie split, they were also divided by class - The Nobles (Trooping Fairies), and the smaller, usually more random kind - Commoners, or 'Duende' (Brownies). However, unlike RW nobility (but very much like FR/fantasy nobility), there was upward social movement, based upon power, If one of the small ones amassed enough power (got old enough or simply 'leveled' in D&D terms), it could be accepted into the ranks of the nobility, although never according the same respect of stature the Noble Trooping Fairies (LeShay) do.

A third type which sages have been arguiing over since the beginning of time (to no avail) are the Sprites - the tiny Fairies that are native to the Feywild. If you ask the Eladrin or Elves they'll just say, "they were always here", and that is probably as close to the truth as you will get. Unlike the True Fey who are actually interlopers, the tiny nature spirits of the Feywild (once the Giantlands) have always just appeared, out of the 'planestuff' of the plane itself, and they come in an enormous variety of shapes and sizes (but all smaller than the diminutive Fey Duende). Although the fey consider them 'kin', in truth, they are not. If anything, its just one more way in which the Fey want to claim the Feywild was always theirs. The Eritch Giants know the Sprites have always been there, in their ancient homelands, but most regarded them as 'pests', at best. Except for the Dverge (dwarves), who tried to get along with wee folk.

So the we had three main groups (who were pretty diverse within their groups as well), and all three made the choice of Seelie or Unseelie (there is also a twilight Court, but this isn't really supposed to be about the Fey). This was originally based upon who remained in Fairie* with Corellon, and who followed Gruumsh, and either left Fairie altogether, or became 'the hidden ones'. Although the Sprites also chose which path they followed, because they weren't truly fey (although if you ask THEM, they'll say they are the ONLY true Fey), they were free to come and go as they pleased, everywhere. Even the gods know you cannot contain the freedom-loving and mischievous sprites. Unlike the other two, who make violent war on one another, Sprites of both camps can be found living near each other, in peace (they may even trade, but you will never find them within the same settlement). And although all the others are often lumped together under the heading 'goblinoids' (even the Orcs, on occasion), its practically unheard of to do so with the Unseelie Sprites - they are always considered fey, regardless of behavior. You'll also find most Goblinoids will avoid interaction with the little ones, regardless of 'Court' - they tend just to ignore them. Only the most vile goblins will harm a Sprite (like a redcap, and even then, its exceedingly rare).

As for Gnomes, well, not all the dverge (dwarves) left the feywild when the Tautha DeDanann invaded. Some stayed, and many of those interbred with the Duende (small fey), and thats how the gnomes came to be. Truly, they are only 'half fey', but since the non-Fey ancestors were more 'native' to the Feywild than their fey side, everyone just excepts that the Gnomes are full fey. As for the dwarves - they did not have females (like all Jotunbrűd), so after the Dawn War they were forced to mix their bloodline with many others so as not to die-out.

Wait... what? No giant females I said? Well now, thats a tale for another thread.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 22:50:00
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15259 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  22:45:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

*This last part I added, to give some more depth to the fey/Orc myths. I don't know the Scro well-enough to know if they already had their own myths.



Scro acknowledge that they come from orcs:

"The scro trace their ancestry back to the orc tribes that fought and lost the Unhuman Wars. Some crews and troops of the few surviving orc vessels made their way to a remote but habitable planet and settled down."

So they worship the same gods and mostly have the same historical memory. Scro are just superior because of seemingly unique circumstances allowing their leader to change the focus of their mindset.
Wellllll... I did say they were just 'myths'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3585 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  22:45:38  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Scro Interlopers in Faerun:

5050
[SJ] A Scro fleet secretly enters Realmspace and begins contacting humanoids on Toril, they provide firearms and smokepowder to the humanoids. (1368 DR)

I haven't found any other notes...but it is obvious that the Scro are interested in Faerun.

I wonder what they may have done since 1368 DR?

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15259 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  22:50:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, like, the Orcs of Many Arrows might have Smokepowder M16's now?

EDIT:
I mentioned the Sharakim earlier, from Races of Destiny. That would be as close as you can find to the original 'pure blood' orcs of the Pre-Gods War era.

I also think the 'lost orcs' from RAS's novels (the ones that once lived alongside dwarves) were of that variety. In the earliest times, before the Eladrin even arrived on Toril, those early Orcs and dwarves shared a common hatred for Fey/Elves (both had pretty-much been kicked-out of Faerie by them)

And when I say 'Faerie', I am talking about a specific region of the Feywild, which now takes up a large part of it. It is the feywild equivalent of the Shadowfell's Domains of Dread - it grows as new Domains are added (and just ike RL, it 'steals' things from the Prime material all the time). The Archfey are the Lords of their Domains. And just like RL and the Plane of Shadows, there is still plenty of room outside of the 'Fairie Lands', includes 'Islands of Mystery', which literally phase in and out of Faerie.

Back to orcs:
There may even be an undiscovered country of Ondonti somewhere in the Feywild, although its hard to say how other fey might react toward them. If there are any Sharakim, they'd be loners - ancient wanderers just looking to be left to themselves. They may even still be bitter over their exile.

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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 23:04:07
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  22:56:23  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.

If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?

It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  23:16:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why couldn't it be the same world the Scro... oh... wait. yeah... not the same thing. LOL

Too bad, it would have been a nice fit.

IDEA:
On the other hand, it could still work. What if the whole 'racial purity' thing with the Scro isn't even that old. How long ago was the Inhuman Wars? Either we can say its the same world, and that was before those Orcs became Scro, or, if the Inhuman Wars happened back just before the Orcgates opened, then maybe their was a push for the 'master race' of Orcs, and they made major attempts to be rid of all the 'lesser' genetic material (average orcs). In other words, THEY (the Scro Orcs) opened the Gates, and forced their lesser kindred through (at spearpoint).

Do the Scro have the same pantheon as the Orcs? It might be cool to have them worship a 'super-Gruumsh' figure. Like maybe a son of Gruumsh, who killed his father and took his place (which would only be in their mythology, of course). Maybe the aspect of Gruumsh (I just love the idea of a 'Super Gruumsh' LOL) is the cyclops-looking one from old school D&D.


Hmmm... and that just gave me another idea to add to my own (Faerie) lore. When Gruumsh first led his people out of Faerie, they were still in the Feywild, and before they went further and left it completely, Orcs may have lived among the giants for a time (who themselves had been pushed into the remote outskirts of their plane - The Hinterlands). That would explain why Orcs and Giants tend to get along (and maybe even that one-eyed aspect of Gruumsh, which was sometime worshiped by some Cyclops).

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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 23:18:58
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 08 Jan 2018 :  23:24:54  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Why couldn't it be the same world the Scro... oh... wait. yeah... not the same thing. LOL

Too bad, it would have been a nice fit.

IDEA:
On the other hand, it could still work. What if the whole 'racial purity' thing with the Scro isn't even that old. How long ago was the Inhuman Wars? Either we can say its the same world, and that was before those Orcs became Scro, or, if the Inhuman Wars happened back just before the Orcgates opened, then maybe their was a push for the 'master race' of Orcs, and they made major attempts to be rid of all the 'lesser' genetic material (average orcs). In other words, THEY (the Scro Orcs) opened the Gates, and forced their lesser kindred through (at spearpoint).

Do the Scro have the same pantheon as the Orcs? It might be cool to have them worship a 'super-Gruumsh' figure. Like maybe a son of Gruumsh, who killed his father and took his place (which would only be in their mythology, of course). Maybe the aspect of Gruumsh (I just love the idea of a 'Super Gruumsh' LOL) is the cyclops-looking one from old school D&D.


Hmmm... and that just gave me another idea to add to my own (Faerie) lore. When Gruumsh first led his people out of Faerie, they were still in the Feywild, and before they went further and left it completely, Orcs may have lived among the giants for a time (who themselves had been pushed into the remote outskirts of their plane - The Hinterlands). That would explain why Orcs and Giants tend to get along (and maybe even that one-eyed aspect of Gruumsh, which was sometime worshiped by some Cyclops).




The Scro only worship one god that I'm aware of: Dukagsh

The Unhuman war that resulted in the Scro being who they are is the First Unhuman War which started in c4,600 SJ reckoning (918 Dale Reckoning).

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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  02:23:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its the name of the god, and the planet? weird.

Interesting backstory though. I guess that's my 'Super-Gruumsh' right there.

I'd have to agree with Wooly, now, about Obould, and the odd take on Gruumsh RAS gave us - that sounds a LOT more like Dukagsh.

Anyway to spin it that FR Gruumsh 'died' some time ago, and was replaced by Dukagsh? Maybe we just had the Talos aspect for awhile, and the Dukagsh came in and absorbed that (possibly during the ToT?) and has been working towards usurping Gruumsh's control of FR's Orcs (which seems to be 'his thing').

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  02:28:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.


Only if the orcs told them. And I'm doubting that "how did orcs come to this world?" was a topic of great interest to the scro.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?


Why? Scro have one goal: killing elves. Chasing after a world full of orcs accomplishes nothing for them.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...



I think they'd only do this if they needed cannon fodder for a nearby world.

Compared to orcs, the scro are a superior race in every way, and they already know that orcish ways led to a lost war. And the scro are so intent on killing elves that a lot of them learn the elvish language, just to taunt elves as they kill them.

Scro will use orcs if it aids in elven genocide, and otherwise they'd ignore them until that genocide was accomplished.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  02:49:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.

If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?

It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...



And when they DO start looking for this stuff... the orcgates.... they'd discover Thay and their experiments with Neo-Orogs. I wonder how they'd feel about that?

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  02:56:15  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

If the Scro have contacted Orcs in Faerun...then they know the legends of how the orcs came to Faerun.


Only if the orcs told them. And I'm doubting that "how did orcs come to this world?" was a topic of great interest to the scro.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

If they know about that, they would perhaps look for the world these orcs came from?


Why? Scro have one goal: killing elves. Chasing after a world full of orcs accomplishes nothing for them.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

It would be interesting to find out if the Scro might attempt to gain control of a world full of orcs for them to use in their wars...



I think they'd only do this if they needed cannon fodder for a nearby world.

Compared to orcs, the scro are a superior race in every way, and they already know that orcish ways led to a lost war. And the scro are so intent on killing elves that a lot of them learn the elvish language, just to taunt elves as they kill them.

Scro will use orcs if it aids in elven genocide, and otherwise they'd ignore them until that genocide was accomplished.




They would be interested in using soldiers...just as they have been/are doing in the Second Unhuman War. There is obviously a reason they are contacting humanoids in Faerun and supplying them with weapons.

A world full of orcs with Portals already established could easily be exploited by the Scro to overwhelm Faerun and then use it as a base in the war against the Imperial Elven Navy in Faerun's Crystal Sphere. The cost to the Scro would be minimal as they would simply have to use their magic to open the portals...if there are hordes of orcs on the other side.

If the hordes poured into Faerun and were even able to establish a strong footing; then the Scro would have soldiers for fodder at hand to use against the IEN.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  03:36:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why do they need to conquer Toril to have a base in Realmspace? The cost to the scro is even more minimal if they pick just about anywhere else in the entire sphere.

And orcs are everywhere. If there's a world somewhere with a strong elven presence, there's likely a nearby world with a strong orc presence -- you don't need to go moving a bunch of orcs across the spheres when you can move someone within a system.

And that's assuming you're fighting a purely ground war, anyway. The scro are a space-faring race. They can -- and should! -- ignore conflicts with groundling elves until they've beat the Elven Imperial Navy. That's something groundling orcs are not going to be useful for.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  03:43:04  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Why do they need to conquer Toril to have a base in Realmspace? The cost to the scro is even more minimal if they pick just about anywhere else in the entire sphere.

And orcs are everywhere. If there's a world somewhere with a strong elven presence, there's likely a nearby world with a strong orc presence -- you don't need to go moving a bunch of orcs across the spheres when you can move someone within a system.

And that's assuming you're fighting a purely ground war, anyway. The scro are a space-faring race. They can -- and should! -- ignore conflicts with groundling elves until they've beat the Elven Imperial Navy. That's something groundling orcs are not going to be useful for.



Proxies are always needed to drain resources. The IEN has responded to the needs of elves on Faerun before...simply sending a team to open a Portal that hordes of orcs could stream through could divert resources away from Realmspace.

It is an age old ploy: use someone else to do dirty work to your benefit.

What do you think they were giving humanoids weapons for if not for this very same thing?

You say the Scro are highly intelligent and I agree. They would use such a tactic to secure their strategic goal of chasing the IEN from Realmspace...where they have already used humanoids to do so in Realmspace Battles. They wouldn't even have to do the fighting...that is what the orcs would be doing on the ground.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  04:47:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's different from conquering the planet just to have a base. You specifically referred to the scro using Faerűn -- perhaps the most populated place in all of Realmspace -- as a base.

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The Masked Mage
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I don't think they'd be able to conquer the planet, but that doesn't mean they could not conquer a little area and use that as a base.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  14:31:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I don't think they'd be able to conquer the planet, but that doesn't mean they could not conquer a little area and use that as a base.



They could do that...

Or, as I suggested, pick just anywhere else in all of Realmspace, where they don't have to worry about dragons or elven High magi or random wizards or anything else.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  15:01:10  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I don't think they'd be able to conquer the planet, but that doesn't mean they could not conquer a little area and use that as a base.



They could do that...

Or, as I suggested, pick just anywhere else in all of Realmspace, where they don't have to worry about dragons or elven High magi or random wizards or anything else.


Indeed - the big plant world Garden would be my guess. High in resources.
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Jan 2018 :  16:21:56  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK

The Scro would have no reason to use Faerun at all. They were just being nice to the humanoids and giving them weapons...

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