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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 03:44:15
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You guys may be worse then me - too much to keep up with.
The one thing that bugs me is that there was this 'War of the Gods', and then everything was chill for awhile. And then Ao splits Abeir-Toril in two for absolutely no reason what-so-ever?
I tried to connect it to the Dawn war, to say he 'had to do it' (because of the fighting between the primordials and the gods... which is exactly what 4e lore says happened!). But because of 5e lore, I keep getting told thats not possible (even though it actually says it in the 4e lore). So then I said, "Hey! The elves have some sort of 'beef' with dragons. And dragons 'rained from the heavens'... what if the elves were responsible for that somehow and feel guilty?" I thought it was a good idea, but once again, I was shot-down.
So it comes down to this - you are much happier saying Ao split the world in two FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL, then to try to find some sort of explanation (even an explanation that was considered canon for one edition). He woke up in a bad mood? Tripped over Toril and stubbed his toe?
If the world wasn't split apart because of the 'Godswar', then why was it? Its kind of a BIG point in the lore. If you are just going to toss the reason out, I would hope you have a better one somewhere. I thought the elves-thing might be a solution.
Also, on the one hand we KNOW Ao is responsible for more than just Realmspace. We know this now, because they involved him in all the core crap. And then you say he is the same power-level as 'The High God'... who is only in charge of just one Sphere. Then you go on to say that there are probably millions of Overgods (more than 'gods'?) So if you have millions of these 'all-powerful' beings, what happens when they disagree? I was trying to establish that Ao must be a tier above even a normal over-Power, simply because of what the latest lore has done with him (involve him THE Creation).
I'm starting to think this just isn't going to work at all. 'Lore by consent' might as well be called 'exercise in futility'. All I'm doing is getting frustrated. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2017 03:47:33 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 05:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You guys may be worse then me - too much to keep up with.
I'm starting to think this just isn't going to work at all. 'Lore by consent' might as well be called 'exercise in futility'. All I'm doing is getting frustrated.
You're right. We're starting to go for the branches. However I, on the other hand, am seeing we are closer to "fix" this. We just have to admit that, perhaps there is no way to reconcile all... and is something normal. How many retcons there have been in the history of D&D? I know 4e was the biggest one, and that 5e somehow retconned stuff as well. But even 3e retconned stuff from earlier editions... and those retcons leave too many incompatibilities in the lore.
My solution is that we can apply that in-universe.
Something similar to the Monomyth of the Elder Scrolls lore. (TES also has a lot of cultures with their own myths, some contradicting as well).
So, instead of trying to build an accurate account of the creation of the multiverse (we are seeing to many inconsistencies to ever accomplish this), we can create something similar to the Monomyth. Instead of building up one accurate lore, something that stores all the relevant myths and acknowledges the discrepancies.
We can even begin our version of the Monomyth with the following:
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A couple bits from Ed...
quote:
None of us can fully trust any of the creation mythos (i.e. where Mystra came from initially).
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Aug 2017 05:55:20 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 05:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm starting to think this just isn't going to work at all. 'Lore by consent' might as well be called 'exercise in futility'. All I'm doing is getting frustrated.
It is frustrating, absolutely. Of course, we are dealing with the most retconned, reimagined, and twisted piece of FR Lore there is... and we are trying to make it work. This is one of the reasons, in my original proposal on how we should deal with FR canon, I wanted to give us the ability to overwrite stuff and do clean up, lol. Because I knew things like this would be a problem.
It is less of an issue when we are dealing with more settled lore... like, say, Cormyr stuff. However, one of the issues that we personally face is that we are not as up-to-date as other people like Zeromaru X with 4th Edition lore. Meanwhile, Zeromaru X is not as up-to-date as we are with the lore of earlier editions.
...and we are trying to make it all fit together. Neatly.
That is a recipe for frustration. However, for me, although it is frustrating, my knowledge of 4th edition lore is growing.
It is also one of the reasons I deliberately tried to steer everyone away from the path folks were heading down. One of the constraints we are under is that we cannot contradict previously established canon. So, that means that, when it comes to the issue of pre-history and creation mythology stuff, we need to figure out what make up the "facts"--what ALMOST CERTAINLY happened and what is "speculation." ...and I am talking about this from an in-setting perspective.
There are just some things that are factual like we know Primordials exist, we know Ao exists, we are reasonably certain that Ao created Realmspace. We are reasonably certain that Ao twinned the world of Abeir-Toril, etc.
Then there is a whole list of other stuff like, were Shar and Selune really around at the beginning of creation? Did Dendar the Night erpent really swallow the sun? These are things that can be placed into the speculation bucket, and thus can be set to the side for the time being.
Then there is a whole other list of things like the stuff Zeromaru X just posted about Io/Asgroth--all of that tangled mess of internally inconsistent lore.
So, yeah, it is complicated and frustrating. However, that is why we need to divide things up like I did above, so that we can maximize the space we have to maneuver. This allows us the ability to deconstruct the mythology, figure out what is absolutely necessary, and then reconstruct it in a more appropriate way that is more "fact" (or as close to it) than "myth."
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Is more complicated than this. Is somehow like this:
...
So, here you go. The full facts of the Io/Asgorath dichotomy.
Holy crap. I read it three times, and I am still trying to wrap my mind around the contradictions. That is confusing. I am going to have to take some time, think about it, and then break it down in a separate post. I need time for my brain to digest all of that because a lot of it just confused me--insanely convoluted.
Give me some time, and I"ll address it in a seperate post.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Like I said previously, we could make Bahamut and Tiamat primordials. Have them on Abeir and then have them come over from Abeir during the Tearfall and eventually ascend to divinity. That way they are not deities until after they are in Toril.
Maybe Erin can help us here. This is from The Devil You Know:
quote:
"What is this place?" Dumuzi asks.
"What remains of Zigguraxus," Enlil said. "I have this much power now, to find it again. But not yet to pull it back." He looks up at the sky, clear and endless. "Once this was a kingdom unto itself. The resting place of all my children. The seat of every god who followed me to this world." He points to the edges of the world, like the points of a many-armed compass. "Inanna. Ki. Gurru. Nanna-Sin. Marduk. Nergal. Ramman. Tiamat. Utu. Assuran. Ishtar. Gilgeam."
"Gilgeam was your ally?" Dumuzi asks, surprised. Enlil looks down at him, puzzlement in his golden eyes.
"Gilgeam was my son," Enlil said.
An heir, a scion, a tyrant—somehow Dumuzi has never drawn the lines back to what that must mean. Why would he? he supposes. Gods are not like mortals. "And Tiamat?"
"A point of balance in the beginning," Enlil said. "If there is order, then, too, must there be chaos. But this plane fed her worst nature, merged her with something too great to be balanced by us alone." Enlil looks to the stars again, his black scales nearly the shade of the night sky. "We are constant and we are changeable. It is difficult to explain."
Does this sparks your imagination?
It does, and I think I see what Erin is doing here. First, I like how that ends. It is how I imagine deities being--constant and yet changeable. They are not static beings like mortals with a fixed history but are rather changed by mortal beliefs and other divine interactions.
Anyway, one of the points of this dialog seems to be trying to fix one of the issues with Tiamat's lore. Tiamat is a deity name lifted from Sumerian mythology. It was given to the D&D Dragon deity Tiamat. Tiamat, therefore, existed in the Realms as she does in core D&D. However, later with the Old Empires lore stuff, Sumerian and Egyptian deities were imported into the Realms... one of them also called Tiamat.
You can go view old scrolls here at Candlekeep discussing all of these contradictions involving Tiamat's lore in the setting.
Anyway, this seems to be saying, basically that Sumerian Tiamat got absorbed by Dragon-deity Tiamat more or less. At least that is how I read it in the context of Tiamat lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Your point is a valid one. And in other instances, I'll go that path. But in this instance, that argument was the basis of the Sundering novels, those novels were written with that background as the "truth".
So, its something published. We can tweak it a bit, but is something we have to deal with.
It's true that they wrote the novels with that background in mind as the "truth." Although I would argue that they actually wrote those novels in mind with the truth that Ao was re-writing the Tablets of Fate, the deities were freaking out, and there were all sorts of chaos as a result.
To my understanding, that is more of what is established in those novels, rather than the Sundering of the past or the events of the Tearfall. Though I could be wrong. For all I know it is clearly explained in the novels, lol.
When it comes to the novels I mostly skim them for lore. I do not necessarily read them for enjoyment or the stories, and I did not pay any real attention to the 4th Edition stuff. I always figured that everything would be summed up neatly and nicely in a new Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide for 5th Edition--except it never came. We only got the SCAG. 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The problem with that theory, is that makes the elves who made that ritual more powerful that even Ao. They forced him to act to save the world, twining it into two timestreams, because the high magic was about to destroy the universe (well, Realmspace).
That is not possible, because the Seldarine stopped the destruction, and the Seldarine cannot be more powerful than Ao. So, the elven Sundering cannot force Ao to do anything.
So, while your approach is the most likely solution to our conundrum (so grown up word, lol), we have to make it work unrelated to the Sundering of Abeir-Toril and the Tearfall. The elves cannot be made responsible of Ao sending the primordials to Abeir. This is an event that happened in "both timelines," regardless of elven intervention.
So, solution (because I'm here giving to much "buts", but no solutions): maybe the elves changed specific points, but not the whole timeline of the world. Those specifics can be our contradictions (how convenient!)
I see your point about giving the Elves too much power in relationship to Ao, and you are absolutely right that it gives their High Magic an insane amount of power. However, I am not really sure that it violates anything relating to the lore around Ao himself. Let me give an example, according to the published lore in Powers and Pantheons, starting on page 94, when the Imaskari creates the Gods Wall, the Mulan cry out to their deities who cannot find them nor reach them due to the Wall. However, Ao hears their prayers, contacts Ptah, who then gathers the deities in question, they create manifestations, and then travel to Toril. We know the rest of that lore after they arrive. The Mulhorandi and Untheric manifestations then spent centuries attempting to find a way to reconnect to their essences in the outer planes, in an attempt to get around the Imaskari Gods Wall. Then after the Time of Troubles, Ao waves his hands, makes the Imaskari Gods Wall disappear, and the Mulhorandi manifestations (and any Untheric manifestations left) reconnect with their main-body in the Outer Planes.
This is some really weird lore. Ao clearly had the power to dispel the Gods Wall. He did so after the Time of Troubles. However, if he had the power to do that, and he was so concerned, why not dispel it in the first place after contacting Ptah? Okay, maybe he does not want to interfere with the Imaskari people--maybe there is some non-interference rule. The Imaskari are defeated, however, and their empire was gone for centuries--and yet Ao does not lift the Gods Wall--even though the Manifestations in the Old Empires are desperately trying to find a way around it?
I basically see this in the same light. We have no idea what weird rules govern Ao. He seems to randomly make decisions like with the Gods Wall. Look at the Time of Troubles. He gets mad over the Tablets of Fate being stolen, and then, in the end, he destroys the Tablets. Then, later on, he recreates the Tablets. Ao's central concern seems to be the Balance, and yet his actions seem arbitrary and random. There may be completely logical reasons for Ao to do the things that he does (for example he can foresee all possibilities and is choosing when and how to act to ensure the best outcome for the Balance--this would look random and arbitrary to us, but logical to him, because he can see things we cannot).
You could fit something like allowing a potential reality shattering magical event to occur within that same frame of reference. After all, the Elven deities could not have even entered Realmspace without Ao's approval.
So, it's possible that Ao knew what would happen and allowed it to happen to prevent something else from happening, and because he knew what the outcome would be. Of course, even if we could explain that all away, that still gives an insane amount of power to the Elves.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for Ubtao being a primordial, is a canon stuff, sadly. However, we know primordials can ascend to godhood.
BTW, the World Serpent in 4e is classified as a Primal Spirit. There is an article about the Moonshaes that talk about this, in one of the Dragon or Dungeon mags from 4e. Those spirits are the embodiments of the "awakened consciousness" of the world itself, and are as mighty as gods and primordials. The article cites a few more of those spirits (such as Nobanion).
I will have to look into that information about Primal Spirits. It's weird that they would do that to the World Serpent. As for Ubtao... I'll leave that matter for another time, it is not immediately important. 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Is from core 4e lore. The Lattice of Heaven was a super powerfull dimensional path/connection the gods of the Nentir Vale world were creating during the creation of the cosmos. Specifically, Erathis (who is like Athena and Chauntea in concept) and Moradin. The idea was that the Lattice of Heaven would connect all the Astral Dominions of the gods and the mortal world, transforming all reality in a single realm.
When the primordials went to war against the gods (the event that is later know as the Dawn War), their first attack in the realms of the gods ended with the Lattice of Heaven destroyed.
Since the Lattice was connected to the mortal world, I can see this as the moment the First World was shattered (or at least, began to shatter, and ended it shattered at/near the end of the Dawn War).
There is more lore about it in the Secrets of the Astral Plane book, and an article about runepriests in Dragon 394, but is mostly core 4e (Erathis trying to rebuilt the Lattice, the epic battle of Kord vs the slaad lord Ygorl to recover the rune that powered the Lattice). So, I guess is of no use here.
Ugh. It sounded useful, but I guess we have enough problems without introducing more core elements into the Realms. I was just hoping that there was a way for us to push some of these conflicts into the planes and off of Abeir and Toril. That would make things so much simpler. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 06:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
You're right. We're starting to go for the branches. However I, on the other hand, am seeing we are closer to "fix" this. We just have to admit that, perhaps there is no way to reconcile all... and is something normal. How many retcons there have been in the history of D&D? I know 4e was the biggest one, and that 5e somehow retconned stuff as well. But even 3e retconned stuff from earlier editions... and those retcons leave too many incompatibilities in the lore.
My solution is that we can apply that in-universe.
Something similar to the Monomyth of the Elder Scrolls lore. (TES also has a lot of cultures with their own myths, some contradicting as well).
So, instead of trying to build an accurate account of the creation of the multiverse (we are seeing to many inconsistencies to ever accomplish this), we can create something similar to the Monomyth. Instead of building up one accurate lore, something that stores all the relevant myths and acknowledges the discrepancies.
This may be the best path forward. We can actually do this and post it on the FRWiki, since it would be completely canon. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 07:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Holy crap. I read it three times, and I am still trying to wrap my mind around the contradictions. That is confusing. I am going to have to take some time, think about it, and then break it down in a separate post. I need time for my brain to digest all of that because a lot of it just confused me--insanely convoluted.
The most funny thing is that this inconsistency was thanks to WotC's hurry to erase all 4e changes: they included them into 5e lore by mistake.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, it's possible that Ao knew what would happen and allowed it to happen to prevent something else from happening, and because he knew what the outcome would be. Of course, even if we could explain that all away, that still gives an insane amount of power to the Elves.
In the video, they say that the Elven Sundering has a similar magic than that of the Sundering of Abeir-Toril. So, why we don't use Markustay's approach to this stuff? Using the canon to fix the canon.
What if Ao orchestrated the Elven Sundering? He saw that the elves were to do their trick and were to cause a great devastation to the Realmspace (something similar happened in the Avatar trilogy).
So he allowed (or managed) for the elves to connect their High Magic with the powerful "magic" (though I do not see the power of Ao as magic... is something way more powerful) he had used during the Original Sundering. Even more, Ao allowed (or connected) the two events, allowing the elves to use that powerful energy to change the timestream. Obviously, without a focus (like the Tablets of Fate were to the Original and Second Sunderings), the elves got screwed (their punishment for trying to change the timeline, perhaps?).
So, in this approach there aren't two timestreams, just one that was changed.
Now, the original timeline would be most like the current one: no primordials in Toril, since they went to Abeir (beyond those imprisoned) during the Tearfall. This event is independent of the Elven Sundering. But maybe the dragons of Toril had a civilization much like the one of their cousins in Abeir. There were also giants (and IIRC, giants also don't love elves, as well).
So, the elves did their change to get rid of dragons, giants and Lolthites (this one is mentioned in the video), but not of primordials and aberrations, as those were already sent to Abeir in the Original Sundering.
In doing so, we divorce the two Sunderings, as both events happen more like the same in both timelines, and both are connected somehow; the elves do not force Ao to do something, and still they change the timeline, damning dragons, giants, and perhaps the Lolthites. This also makes Ao seems the uncaring balancer he is: he allowed the Seldarine to save the elves, yet punished them forcing them to watch the elves die for their foolishness.
This however, makes the Time of Troubles an issue (does allowing the elves doing their Sundering backfired to Ao? Was that an unforeseen consequence or a miscalculation? Or Ao allowed it, knowing that his gods would become jerks, so he wanted to punish them in the future?). But I guess this a canon issue as well, so its not our problem to fix.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It's weird that they would do that to the World Serpent. As for Ubtao... I'll leave that matter for another time, it is not immediately important.
Beyond that article in Dragon 376 (Realmslore: Sarifal), there is not much about them in 4e FR products. The Primal Spirits are fleshed out in the second Player's Handbook of 4e, thought the lore is 4e core stuff. The World Serpent is fully fleshed out in this book (though, its 4e incarnation is different to its pre-4e, god version; that's why I was confused and had to read the Monster Mythology book).
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It sounded useful, but I guess we have enough problems without introducing more core elements into the Realms. I was just hoping that there was a way for us to push some of these conflicts into the planes and off of Abeir and Toril. That would make things so much simpler.
The shattering of the Lattice of Heaven works for the Shattering of the First World, because that event seems to be multiversal in scope. That's why I brought it up.
However, after the First World is shattered and divided into the current worlds, is ceases to be useful for our purposes here. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Aug 2017 07:30:27 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 08:06:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This may be the best path forward. We can actually do this and post it on the FRWiki, since it would be completely canon.
Maybe we can ask BadCatMan about the viability of this?
But my solution wasn't a canon one, though, as I wanted to unify all the theories we have discussed here. And some of those aren't canon Realms. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:31:01
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| Just something to throw out there. If evermeet was brought to the world throughout time, and the two worlds were truly twinned, then there would have been an evermeet on Abeir. We did have an "empty copy" of Evermeet that was copied over that was next to Returned Abeir/Laerakond. We can maybe assume that this empty copy is a transfer from Abeir. However, the true evermeet went to the feywild. So, in essence the Abeir/Toril Sundering somehow got intertwined with the feywild. Given all the "shadow" things that were going on as well, I also wouldn't be surprised if the shadowfell is sucked into it too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to throw out there, what if Dendar comes through now and does devour the sun...... the one over Elturel that the folks who worship Amaunator created.
That's not an actual sun. It is just an illusion.
And Amaunator is an alias of Leira now .... a big glowing yellow illusion...
Or maybe its an open portal to the plane of radiance moved from the edge of the crystal sphere to this location. Hmmmm, something just tickled there.... "crystal sphere" lined with portals to the plane of radiance along its inside.... "crystal sun"....hmmm...
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 14:00:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Like I said previously, we could make Bahamut and Tiamat primordials. Have them on Abeir and then have them come over from Abeir during the Tearfall and eventually ascend to divinity. That way they are not deities until after they are in Toril.
Maybe Erin can help us here. This is from The Devil You Know:
quote:
"What is this place?" Dumuzi asks.
"What remains of Zigguraxus," Enlil said. "I have this much power now, to find it again. But not yet to pull it back." He looks up at the sky, clear and endless. "Once this was a kingdom unto itself. The resting place of all my children. The seat of every god who followed me to this world." He points to the edges of the world, like the points of a many-armed compass. "Inanna. Ki. Gurru. Nanna-Sin. Marduk. Nergal. Ramman. Tiamat. Utu. Assuran. Ishtar. Gilgeam."
"Gilgeam was your ally?" Dumuzi asks, surprised. Enlil looks down at him, puzzlement in his golden eyes.
"Gilgeam was my son," Enlil said.
An heir, a scion, a tyrant—somehow Dumuzi has never drawn the lines back to what that must mean. Why would he? he supposes. Gods are not like mortals. "And Tiamat?"
"A point of balance in the beginning," Enlil said. "If there is order, then, too, must there be chaos. But this plane fed her worst nature, merged her with something too great to be balanced by us alone." Enlil looks to the stars again, his black scales nearly the shade of the night sky. "We are constant and we are changeable. It is difficult to explain."
Does this sparks your imagination?
What it does for me is further fuel my idea that some of the godly domains switched over to Abeir instead of being connected to Toril. One of those that I had already theorized went there was Zigguraxus. Then some of the others would be dweomerheart, the one for the Mulhorandi gods (Heliopolis), and then the Maztican gods and Wenimats where Anchorome's great spirits dwelled (which in 3rd edition they ignored, but in second edition was a demi-plane domain within the happy hunting grounds.... with the great wheel instead of the world tree layout), also Leira's Courts of Illusion.
Also, on the Io as god / Asgorath as primordial thing.... one thing to point out is what exactly makes a difference between say a primordial and a godly manifestation? One thing people point out is that primordials are "elemental" in nature (which Asgorath could fit as being an energy breathing dragon). So, as Aldrick was saying earlier... what if the meaning of Estelar is close but a little off. What if Estelar is a term for a godly manifestation rather than a god as we picture them out in the outer planes. What if the godwall that the Imaskari created wasn't actually created by them, but simply put back up. What if back in the early days, for a god to come into realmspace they all had to come in as manifestations/estelar. Then when Ao twinned the worlds, Toril got the ability to have gods who could come in as otherworldly entities. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 14:30:58
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Markustay has a good point. Why did Ao split the world? What is the difference between god and Estelar and primordial? In the previous reply, I remarked that MAYBE way back then, gods HAD to come to realsmpace as manifestations, and maybe they lost contact to their outer planar selves. This resulted in actual fights between primordials and estelar/manifestations that literally threatened to tear the world/sphere apart. So, Ao twinned the world. On Abeir, only primordials could exist. On Toril, gods could come in without having to come in as manifestations/estelar.
Then the Imaskari find Ao's waiting godwall metaphysical construct somehow, and they turn it back on for those who haven't already built a path into the crystal sphere. Maybe this even amuses Ao, and for a while its not an issue. It also means gods aren't bugging him to come in left and right. Then without an influx of new gods all the time (and an exodus of gods due to lack of worship), the existing gods start cooperating in Faerun and this ultra-pantheon starts getting built that crosses a lot of lines. Its building up enough power that it can even threaten Ao (who despite all his bluster maybe does have constraints). Then three jackasses cross a line and steal from Ao. Ao says "screw this", reenacts the "manifestations only" rule, which cuts all existing paths into the crystal sphere and boots the existing gods all into local manifestation mode. Then he says police your own... walks off to vent.... and comes back to get his tablets back and reprimand the gods... then he drops the godswall. However, he also puts in even more stringent requirements for faith worship by reducing just how much stored faith energy a given god can "hold". This starts the era after the ToT where gods start killing gods left and right.
We then have whole planar connections getting iffy, with Amaunator's Keep of the Eternal Sun domain trying to get back aligned, Bhaal trying to get his Throne of Blood domain back in line with the plane, Leira's Court of Illusion either getting disconnected or hidden, Lolth creating an all new divine domain, Zigguraxus fading away, Heliopolis getting properly aligned in, etc... such that the "world tree" or rather all the planar interconnections just start fluxing a LOT within about a 27 year span.... then dweomerheart gets severed and a lot of those divine domains that were in some form of flux just get disconnected entirely so it can stabilize. Cyric isn't locked away as described. Rather his divine domain just loses all attachments. Several of these disconnected divine domains get re-attached, but they get attached to Abeir. So, the gods are allowed to go to Abeir, but only as Estelar / Manifestations. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 15:42:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay has a good point. Why did Ao split the world?
Because Asgorath was about to destroy Abeir-Toril. She was throwing ice moons/comets/Selûne's ex-boyfriends to Toril not because she was bored, but because she said "if I cannot rule this world... well, f*ck it, nobody will!"
So Ao decided that he would give the primordials a new world, Abeir, for them to do whatever they wanted with it, while retaining sovereignty of Toril for the gods.
Notice that Ao didn't do anothing to cleanse Abeir-Toril of aberrations from the Far Realm who inhabited the world until this point (the Far Realm literally bleed into Abeir-Toril, according to the Stardeep novel); or to stop the gods and primordials from starting the Dawn War II. It was the fact that Asgorath was about to destroy Toril, his "favorite of all his creations" (according to the Waterdeep novel), that made Ao finally spur to action.
It seems the guy is very protective of its favorite toy.
And yes, Toril is the original world (Abeir-Toril), Abeir was a new one crafted specifically for the primordials. And somehow, some heroes (that later ascended to godhood; we don't know who they were, beyond the fact that those deities were dead as of before the Spellplague and that they are related with the Cerulean Sign stuff), took advantage of the situation to send most of the aberrations to Abeir as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Then the Imaskari find Ao's waiting godwall metaphysical construct somehow, and they turn it back on for those who haven't already built a path into the crystal sphere. Maybe this even amuses Ao, and for a while its not an issue.
Yet we have interloper deities that appeared before Ao dissolved the Wall (for instance, the Wall didn't prevented Tharizdun from entering the Realms in 1340; Mystra had to directly intervene to avoid this*).
This means that the Wall only worked for the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods?
*Granted, this is a 4e plothole, but I mention it for us to resolve it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Aug 2017 15:45:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 18:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay has a good point. Why did Ao split the world?
Because Asgorath was about to destroy Abeir-Toril. She was throwing ice moons/comets/Selûne's ex-boyfriends to Toril not because she was bored, but because she said "if I cannot rule this world... well, f*ck it, nobody will!"
So Ao decided that he would give the primordials a new world, Abeir, for them to do whatever they wanted with it, while retaining sovereignty of Toril for the gods.
Notice that Ao didn't do anothing to cleanse Abeir-Toril of aberrations from the Far Realm who inhabited the world until this point (the Far Realm literally bleed into Abeir-Toril, according to the Stardeep novel); or to stop the gods and primordials from starting the Dawn War II. It was the fact that Asgorath was about to destroy Toril, his "favorite of all his creations" (according to the Waterdeep novel), that made Ao finally spur to action.
It seems the guy is very protective of its favorite toy.
And yes, Toril is the original world (Abeir-Toril), Abeir was a new one crafted specifically for the primordials. And somehow, some heroes (that later ascended to godhood; we don't know who they were, beyond the fact that those deities were dead as of before the Spellplague and that they are related with the Cerulean Sign stuff), took advantage of the situation to send most of the aberrations to Abeir as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Then the Imaskari find Ao's waiting godwall metaphysical construct somehow, and they turn it back on for those who haven't already built a path into the crystal sphere. Maybe this even amuses Ao, and for a while its not an issue.
Yet we have interloper deities that appeared before Ao dissolved the Wall (for instance, the Wall didn't prevented Tharizdun from entering the Realms in 1340; Mystra had to directly intervene to avoid this*).
This means that the Wall only worked for the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods?
*Granted, this is a 4e plothole, but I mention it for us to resolve it.
Or that the wall couldn't affect certain types of beings. Tharizdun is one of those "WTF is he really" gods. Is he a primordial? Is he a god? Is he a Far Realm entity? There's certain entities that I'd give a pass on as far as the god wall just due to sheer power level.
That being said, what's this about 1340 DR and Tharizdun (I see something on the wiki, but it doesn't go into detail)? I will also note that way back when it was somewhat hinted at that Tharizdun and Ghaundaur were related, because Tharizdun is sometimes referred to as the Elder Elemental Eye and Ghaunadar in Demihuman deities is called "the elder eye" as well as "the Elder Elemental God". So, in theory, Tharizdun may be acting through Ghaunadar if not being that deity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 18:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay has a good point. Why did Ao split the world? What is the difference between god and Estelar and primordial? In the previous reply, I remarked that MAYBE way back then, gods HAD to come to realsmpace as manifestations, and maybe they lost contact to their outer planar selves. This resulted in actual fights between primordials and estelar/manifestations that literally threatened to tear the world/sphere apart. So, Ao twinned the world. On Abeir, only primordials could exist. On Toril, gods could come in without having to come in as manifestations/estelar.
Then the Imaskari find Ao's waiting godwall metaphysical construct somehow, and they turn it back on for those who haven't already built a path into the crystal sphere. Maybe this even amuses Ao, and for a while its not an issue. It also means gods aren't bugging him to come in left and right. Then without an influx of new gods all the time (and an exodus of gods due to lack of worship), the existing gods start cooperating in Faerun and this ultra-pantheon starts getting built that crosses a lot of lines. Its building up enough power that it can even threaten Ao (who despite all his bluster maybe does have constraints). Then three jackasses cross a line and steal from Ao. Ao says "screw this", reenacts the "manifestations only" rule, which cuts all existing paths into the crystal sphere and boots the existing gods all into local manifestation mode. Then he says police your own... walks off to vent.... and comes back to get his tablets back and reprimand the gods... then he drops the godswall. However, he also puts in even more stringent requirements for faith worship by reducing just how much stored faith energy a given god can "hold". This starts the era after the ToT where gods start killing gods left and right.
We then have whole planar connections getting iffy, with Amaunator's Keep of the Eternal Sun domain trying to get back aligned, Bhaal trying to get his Throne of Blood domain back in line with the plane, Leira's Court of Illusion either getting disconnected or hidden, Lolth creating an all new divine domain, Zigguraxus fading away, Heliopolis getting properly aligned in, etc... such that the "world tree" or rather all the planar interconnections just start fluxing a LOT within about a 27 year span.... then dweomerheart gets severed and a lot of those divine domains that were in some form of flux just get disconnected entirely so it can stabilize. Cyric isn't locked away as described. Rather his divine domain just loses all attachments. Several of these disconnected divine domains get re-attached, but they get attached to Abeir. So, the gods are allowed to go to Abeir, but only as Estelar / Manifestations.
Oh, and actually, the way I would prefer to work it wouldn't be that the gods whose divine domains transfer over immediately have manifestations. I'd prefer that first they have to do what they did in the ToT. They have to convince a mortal to let them take over their body as an avatar (I do believe free will was involved... could be wrong, been 20 years). Then after they "do some stuff" as a lesser avatar in a mortal body, maybe they can construct a manifestation (maybe requires getting some worshippers, maybe requires getting some magic items/artifacts related to themselves, etc...). Maybe with enough divine power they can even have their manifestations create avatar constructs that are temporary.
Doing it like this, we may find out that the "Son of Victory" is simply acting as a "lesser avatar" much like occurred during the ToT. These beings were powerful, but actually some 20th level or so characters could beat one down. Also, they had to be within a certain radius in order for their worshippers to use divine magic (something like you had to be within maybe 20 or 100 miles of the deity to cast divine spells, and I think the levels of spells were even stunted).
Other gods that were in Abeir may have been stuck at this power level as well. For instance, I like the idea that maybe Gargauth was in Abeir but he never got past the lesser avatar power level. So, he was stuck maybe even hiding out in Peleveran.
I'm imagining that the same could go for a lot of the "gods" that I'm actually presenting as sleeping nyama-nummo in Katashaka (so like the giant sleeping snake that is Merrshaulk might have an avatar and local divine spellcasters, similar for Ramenos, Camazotz, Ragarra, and Heresa Hesi) and if the current avatar is killed they might be able to ride another mortal. Maybe this continues even now that they've transferred back.
Once the gods can create manifestations, maybe their worshippers still have to follow the rules from the DMs Guild Product "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class" in that you need to build an idol and worship and sacrifice at it to get more powerful magic spell slots prepared (while they were in Abeir mind you). This makes divine casting possible, but it becomes a really really big deal to do powerful magic.... and it really pushes the idea that deities would be requiring sacrifices of various sorts while in Abeir (whether its blood, money, food, or hours of hard work/chanting/dancing, etc...).
Maybe eventually they can get to the point that they could have regular clerics, but that would only be a god who has really gotten some worship in that hundred year span, and truly I can't think of one that I'd say it would work for. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Aug 2017 20:52:25 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 19:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
[quote]Originally posted by Aldrick
So, it's possible that Ao knew what would happen and allowed it to happen to prevent something else from happening, and because he knew what the outcome would be. Of course, even if we could explain that all away, that still gives an insane amount of power to the Elves.
In the video, they say that the Elven Sundering has a similar magic than that of the Sundering of Abeir-Toril. So, why we don't use Markustay's approach to this stuff? Using the canon to fix the canon.
What if Ao orchestrated the Elven Sundering? He saw that the elves were to do their trick and were to cause a great devastation to the Realmspace (something similar happened in the Avatar trilogy).
So he allowed (or managed) for the elves to connect their High Magic with the powerful "magic" (though I do not see the power of Ao as magic... is something way more powerful) he had used during the Original Sundering. Even more, Ao allowed (or connected) the two events, allowing the elves to use that powerful energy to change the timestream. Obviously, without a focus (like the Tablets of Fate were to the Original and Second Sunderings), the elves got screwed (their punishment for trying to change the timeline, perhaps?).
So, in this approach there aren't two timestreams, just one that was changed.
Now, the original timeline would be most like the current one: no primordials in Toril, since they went to Abeir (beyond those imprisoned) during the Tearfall. This event is independent of the Elven Sundering. But maybe the dragons of Toril had a civilization much like the one of their cousins in Abeir. There were also giants (and IIRC, giants also don't love elves, as well).
So, the elves did their change to get rid of dragons, giants and Lolthites (this one is mentioned in the video), but not of primordials and aberrations, as those were already sent to Abeir in the Original Sundering.
In doing so, we divorce the two Sunderings, as both events happen more like the same in both timelines, and both are connected somehow; the elves do not force Ao to do something, and still they change the timeline, damning dragons, giants, and perhaps the Lolthites. This also makes Ao seems the uncaring balancer he is: he allowed the Seldarine to save the elves, yet punished them forcing them to watch the elves die for their foolishness.
This however, makes the Time of Troubles an issue (does allowing the elves doing their Sundering backfired to Ao? Was that an unforeseen consequence or a miscalculation? Or Ao allowed it, knowing that his gods would become jerks, so he wanted to punish them in the future?). But I guess this a canon issue as well, so its not our problem to fix.
I can't keep up with this thread, LOL.
The Seldarine intervened with the creation of Evermeet to prevent further destruction. In the novel Evermeet, after the creation of the island, the Seldarine express both approval and disapproval. Approval because the elven haven was created, disapproval because of the destruction it wrought. The magic got away from the mages, and the Seldarine had to step in. I still don't think the elves changed the timeline to the point they erased it, because that would make them and the Seldarine more powerful than Ao. I love the elves (even as most others hate them lol), but I won't give them or the Seldarine that kind of power LOL.
However, just for speculation (I know we're trying to fix the canon issues, but bear with me), what if the "magic" used in the high elven ritual is in fact the power of the gods? In other words, divine power, or a mix of arcane and divine. We know that mortals can channel their gods' power. This is what clerics do. The elves (sun/high elves) came from Faerie, where power was likely easier to channel. They weren't expecting the "limitations" on the magic in Faerun, so the magic got out of control. Elves are connected to magic and the natural world (the Weave “flows through their veins”, so to speak). In Faerie, they were used to the ease in which they could wield these powers. They weren’t prepared for the differences in Toril, even though Toril itself is a highly magical place.
Prepare for wild theory: I realize we are trying to steer away from myth, but the elven creation myth (the elves springing from Corellon’s blood), has been fairly consistent throughout editions. If they in fact sprang from his blood, then, in a way, they literally have divine blood in their veins. Of course, this blood would become more and more diluted through the generations, but perhaps the remnants of the divine blood allowed them to channel divine power. However, it was not enough for them to maintain control, especially now that they were no longer in Faerie. Thus, the ritual got out of control.
The gods (all gods) probably draw from the same “power source”, but Ao obviously has more access/abilities than the other Torilian deities he “governs”. Clerical powers, or any divine ritual allows for mortals to briefly draw on this power source, as well, but too much is fatal and destructive. When the “ripples” of the elven sundering ritual went backward and forward in time, they caused changes in the past, but perhaps they were changes Ao deemed necessary to the timeline, for whatever reason. Or, perhaps he himself intervened in a way we aren’t aware of (and, as suggested, the destruction was the elves’ punishment).
Perhaps the two timelines twined together, like pieces of thread. The second timeline—the one created by the elven sundering—changed points/events in history—but twined with the original timeline, so some events, like the Tearfall, remained in place in the “canon timeline”.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 21:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I can't keep up with this thread, LOL.
Truer words were never spoken.
I read this thing, and with almost every sentence read,I want to comment, and then I read the next, and the next, and I forget 95% of what I want to say as the points get bandied back-and-forth. Thus, I am going to go for the 'throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks' approach (another cool,saying I have BCM to thank for):
Dragons: Personally, I think Celestial dragons ARE 'Primordials'. Or rather, just a different branch of that group (like how we have 'races' of humans here on Earth, but in reality, those aren't really separate races at all - just 'ethnicities'). The fact that we are arguing about what something 'IS' in a world of magic & gods, where even a lowly mortal can change the way they look permanently, about being of such magnitude they are really little more than self-aware ENORMOUS balls of energy (with 'the power of a million suns'). The physical form they take (that they choose to take) - be it draconic, or something closer to a HUGE elemental - is completely meaningless. This is why - way back when - when I first started my musings/theories about the 'greater D&D Cosmology' (what I eventually dubbed my 'Over-Cosmology'), I wrote the word 'Drækon', meaning an "ANCIENT being of immeasurable power" in some forgotten old planer language. It was my catch-all for that tier 'above the gods'. I sometimes had it above or below 'Ordials', or even as a substitute for that other, homebrew term. I think I may reassign Ordials as just that group of beings that were either 'created whole cloth' by something else, or just spontaneously manifested from the stuff of the universe. the difference being that everything else 'ascended' to their position, be they mortal (originally), or some other lower tier (fiend, angle, etc.) Basically, any 'god' thats NOT a 'deity' (and Ordials are never 'born' - they pre-existed that concept).
Whats that 4e (5e?) term? Estelar? That might be good to use. I'd rather just keep 'gods' as a catch-all for just about anything above the 'mortal' tier' (because in Asian folklore, even local nature spirits were all lumped-in as 'Kami' (Spirits), or 'gods' (they did not differentiate as much as we do about 'power levels', or rather, they didn't feel the need to create names for hundreds of different levels of 'divine being'). Thus, a 'spiritual being' (one that that does not naturally possess a physical body on the Prime Material) is a 'Kami'.
So Estelar, Primordials, Drækons (Celestial dragons), Elder Evils, Elemental lords, Archfey, primal Spirits, 'Beast Lords', and even the arch-Celestials and arch-fiends... would all be 'gods'. If we include every creature below that level, but who is still an 'outsider', than they are all 'Kami'. The reason why this may be a very good assumption to make is that it helps rectify a LOT of old canon to the new (every instance where something was called 'a god', when now, that is not precisely so in 4e/5e). So Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, and Akadi are all GODS. NOT 'Estelar', but primordial gods.
I wanted to discuss a bunch of other things here, but I need to keep going with this idea. I'll do a second (etc.) post for the other stuff.
So now we have to figure out why are their two (or more) groups? Whats the difference? How about this - 'spontaneous' and 'created'? Lets say the primordials are created spontaneously out of some sort of 'need' by the universe (I'm touching on my 'Uni-mind' {racial overmind) theory). This can all go back to the idea that the universe itself is sentient¹, and every 'idea' that forms with in it is given substance. Then we have the Estelar - these should be the beings created for a purpose. Ao is probably one - he is in charge of restoring order when 'gods' disagree (so sometimes he has power over other overpowers, and in other instances, those same beings may have jurisdiction over him, depending upon the circumstance). He's also the Overgod of Realmspace. Maybe he's 'moonlighting', or he's just an over-achiever (or just maybe, Realmspace's original Overgod was killed, and he stepped in... we may be able to run with that one²). So if we accept that (and I am already expecting the usual barrage of 'No it can't be!" LOL), then we have a good reason why we have two different terms for beings that otherwise seem pretty much the same thing... and why they might disagree. If the primordials happen spontaneously, they might decide that their very existence precludes any disagreements someone may have with them ("If I wasn't suppose to be HERE, thinking these things, then I wouldn't exist, would I?"), while at the same time, Estelar might feel because they were created with specific purpose, their purposes puts them in charge of 'the natural order', which would include the primordials. The entire Dawn War might just boil-down to "Who died and left YOU boss?"
Draækons may actually be a hybrid - 'purposed' (tasked? like some genies?) primordials. Their nature seems more 'elemental', and yet, if we look at the Celestial Dragons, they are an important part of the Celestial Bureaucracy, and are in-control of very specific phenomena. So maybe the Esteler got some of the Primordials to become Drækons (making them very much like 'junior Estelar', at least in the Estelar's eyes). I think this may have rubbed some of the more 'liberal' (freedom-minded) primordials the wrong way (because unlike the Estelar, they wouldn't feel there was a 'right' or 'wrong' way to do anything). And maybe what I am calling 'Drækons' are really just those 'Primal Spirits' (or another way of looking at it would be is that they {spontaneous gods} are all 'primal spirits', but the ones we call 'Primordials' don't have jobs in the hierarchy). They are 'Free Agents', so to speak.
I guess it always comes down to a conflict between the Conservatives and the Liberals. 
More to come...
¹ Not in a 'bearded old man, nice-guy sitting in a giant golden chair' kind of way, but rather, something REMOTE, unknowable, unfathonable, completely amoral (neutral), and ALIEN. Also, it might be 'dead', or rather, its just fragmented so many times by now that its lapsed into a comatose state (World serpent?).
² What if someone else was Realmspace's Overgod? Mystryl? Asgoroth? And then they were destroyed. Can we do something with that? My first thought was Asgoroth (Io), but then I thought, we never really saw Ao during Mystryl's reign, only after Karsus' Folly. Also, I thought Io was Greyhawk's Overgod? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2017 23:10:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 22:11:53
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On Dragons, dragon-gods, and all things 'scaly'
This is a tough nut to crack. I mentioned in the footnote above that maybe 'THE GOD' was actually the World Serpent. Or rather, what the Sarrukh and other 'scalykind' called The World Serpent. The Aeree may have called the same concept 'Big Bird'¹, or some such. Any name we give it is really just mortals naming it, and has nothing to do with how it identifies itself. It isn't a serpent, or snake/dragon/whatever. It is the sum total of everything, and the sentience that's attached to that. So this thing splits into two kids, lets say - Jazirian and Ahriman, and those two fly 'round and 'round until the create the great Wheel of Planescape. In fact, if this was done post-Dawn War, it might make more sense (it would be the new 'headquarters' of the gods). I had an odd theory about Bahamut and Tiamat being corrupted aspects of them, but were later 'purged' of their Chaos (the corruption that happens when anything from this universe contacts anything from the Far Realms). I did that so we had four major dragons representing the four major alignments, but I no longer feel that is necessary (it would make a good heresy, though). So lets just skip that, for now.
What if the two of them represent two haves of the First god? I doubt The sentience of the universe (The World Serpent in this new set of theories) would even think in terms of 'gods', etc. These are all just 'stray thoughts' running around inside its head. So what if Io was the 'sense of self'? I think, therefor I am. Io. And after it is killed (cloven in two) during the Dawn War by Erek-Hus, it becomes the yin and the yang. The Jazirian, and the Ahriman. And later when scalykind start to worship these beings, they take on their 5-headed aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. We could either say that Bahamut originally had five heads, but he split into five individual gods, or maybe it would be cooler to say he had five tails (because 'good' is "of one mind"). I'm just thinking in terms of how Io/Asgorath is sometimes depicted.
Now I'm going to put that aside...
What if these two halves of Io were also called by the original name? Except with a very slight spelling difference - Asgorath, and Asgoroth. One a primordial, and one an Estelar. Making any sense yet? The 'positive' half would be an Estelar, bound by honor and 'doing the right thing'. The other a primordial, taking Io's primal spirit to its extreme - a completely amoral hedonistic narcissist. After seeking revenge together against their parent's killer, they go their separate ways, with most of the other Primordials following in Tiamat's path, and most of the Estelar pursuing Bahmut's calling. If we re-spin things in this light, then Io's 'death' was not really the culmination of The Dawn War (or was it?²), it was the catalyst for that war.
¹ I think we are putting too much power behind words/names. These 'eternal beings from the Dawn of Time' are going to be called hundreds of different things, by hundreds of different races and cultures. And sometimes one culture will meet with another and borrow ideas, so a name used by one will be re-purposed by another (and MAN, does this ever happen with religion, RW - you spin the gods of your enemies as 'the evil one'). There is nothing to a name other than the power we give it. Its why the 'Dark gods' created the spoken tongue - lies cannot be told telepathically (and EVERYTHING spoke telepathically, in the beginning). The basis for aggression is misunderstanding, and the basis for misunderstanding is language. When you know someone else's 'mind', then you understand why they think the way they do. You understand each other's point of View. There is no contention. But I digress. We have a running theme here of something splitting into more 'somethings', and so on, and so forth. And these 'aspects' can take on a life of their own, with religions forming around them. And sometimes, an older name may be applied to something newer, because of more misunderstanding - just because we see the name of some previously 'dead' god in a myth doesn't mean its actually the same exact being. It was just something similar enough to the other that the 'label' was applied to it. And to be philosophical for a moment, if ALL of these beings are just split-off aspects of even greater beings, then no label (name) is incorrect, really, because it IS the same being, on a deeper level. You are just choosing to recognize something you see in it from an earlier incarnation.
² I am still not convinced that the Dawn War, the War of Light & Darkness, and the Sundering of Abeir-Toril are all separate incidents. Separate events, yes, but all part of some greater conflagration, I am thinking. Something that went on for Aeons. When we read the myths, we are only seeing 'snapshots' of a titanic struggle. Look at it this way - the 'Dawn War' was actually the name given to an on-going conflict that began with the murder of Io by Erak-Hus (HE has three brothers, BTW - Erak-SkotDubie, Erak-Boid, and Erak-Moanaa ), and culminated in the near-destruction of Realmspace (which forced A to separate the worlds). Now, before you start telling me all about time-inconsistencies (temporal anomalies?), I've already established that Asgoroth isn't necessarily Asgorath, and that the two aren't necessarily the same as Io (and yet, all the names can be sued interchangeably to a degree, because they are interrelated). We can say the two (really Bahamut and Tiamat) separated, and then 'met again' in Realmspace for another battle. In fact, this might be a never-ending, on-going thing with these two (Krynn, anyone?) And now I am going to have to call this one my 'Fight Club' theory.
Ya know... because he's really just fighting himself.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2017 22:16:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 23:07:28
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My footnotes above got to big - I wanted to make another point, concerning another theory that is only partially mine. The Great wheel is the single greatest 'artifact' in existence. it was the first 'construct'; somehting artificial built for a siguar purpose. but what purpose? That was theory others had, that I ran with...
What if, when Io/Asgorath/The World Serpent was rent asunder, all that wonderful, divine, finite energy spilled out all over the place? What if that why the world serpent lay in a coma now? Literally, its life's blood has almost all oozed out. So what if Jazirian and Ahriman were trying to recollect it - to put itself back together? What if the Spinning Great Wheel is some sort of funnel-like vortex, recollecting all that 'spirit energy' (what the Native Americans call 'The Great Spirit"). like most other energies in the universe, it would have a 'positive' and a 'negative' side to it. Recollecting all the 'soul stuff' that spilled-out into the Prime Material (which is why all the souls go to the Outer Planes), with Jazirian and Ahriman representing the two 'poles' of energy (they power the machine, until its done with its job).
But then you would have other forces - even aspects of those two - that may be working against this 'recollection of soul-bits'. Maybe this whole multiverse is just a dream inside the mind of dying god in a coma, and the idea is to give it just enough 'life blood' back to keep it alive, but not to let it wake up. Because if it wakes up, the dream ends... and we all go bye-bye.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Next up: Are Selûne and Shar just Realms-specific aspects of the whole Tiamat/Bahamut story? There are a lot of similarities (especially the part where 'the two are one'), and how they battled in Realmspace and almost detroyed Abeir-Toril. The War of Light & Darkness could be allegory for the conflict between Bahamut and Tiamat, and truth might be much stranger than we suspected - that Mystryl wasn't 'born of the twin goddesses', but rather, they came from her. That Mystryl was Io... who was 'killed' by Erak-Hus. The only problem with all this is that Mystryl died very recently (comparitively) to connect that to the Sundering.
So lets put THAT aside for a moment...
What if whoever it was that spawned Shar and Selûne (Io? Asgoroth?} was destroyed, as per everything I've said above, and if some Powers in the universe are trying to put him/her/it back together again, Toril is the focal-point for that 'recollection'? That 'The Weave' is the returning consciousness of THE GOD (The World Serpent). The 'matrix' of its mind. 
That would explain the presence of all these 'heavy hitters' in Realmspace, like Ubtao, Dender, etc., even Zehir has come back around. It would also go a LONG WAY in explaining the deal with The Weave (its isn't everywhere, and yet, it is, and when something effects it or Realmspace, the whole multiverse goes out-of-wack). So, The Weave (thus-far) is only 'in' Realmsoace (because this is where the primal essence of Io is being recollected and restored). Its why its 'full of magic' (its like hacking the code in a video game - you have have access to all the 'cheat codes' - you can do ANYTHING), and why Ed has said repeatedly "The Weave = magic = 'Life'", and why Asmodeus thought he was king S*** when he managed to 'mainline' a bunch of it (via Azuth).
Abeir-Toril (and Realmspace, and perhaps 'The Radiant Triangle') are (all) part of this 'central hub', where the spinning, churning Great Wheel is re-weaving the consciousness of the One, true God. And maybe not just its 'essence'... there is 'the skull of the Void' as well. Maybe ALL the pieces are here. Maybe the worlds are its flesh and bones, and why the Road of Starlight and Shadows is really just the Celestial Lattice being put back together as well (some other system? like the circulatory, or nervous systems?)
The stuff about the 'Celestial Lattice' (am I saying that right?) fits really well with my theories about the Pools/Moonwells being 'access points' (Portals) from the First World, and how the Road of Starlight and Shadows is a vestige of that.
EDIT:
Oh, and I am just sitting here waiting for you guys to shoot holes in all of this {in my best circa WW2 German accent: "I vill! I VILL make it verk!"} I think I've watched to much Rick & Morty. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2017 23:15:11 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 00:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Tharizdun is one of those "WTF is he really" gods. Is he a primordial? Is he a god? Is he a Far Realm entity?
I will also note that way back when it was somewhat hinted at that Tharizdun and Ghaundaur were related, because Tharizdun is sometimes referred to as the Elder Elemental Eye and Ghaunadar in Demihuman deities is called "the elder eye" as well as "the Elder Elemental God". So, in theory, Tharizdun may be acting through Ghaunadar if not being that deity.
Well, I guess now I understand the 4e approach with this god.
In 4e, Tharizdun is really a god. In fact one of the original ones, albeit a mad one, corrupted by the Far Realm after having catched a glimpse of that plane through the Living Gate, and later further corrupted by the Obyriths and their Shard of Pure Evil. He then fooled the first primordials saying he is the fabled very first primordial, the Elder Elemental Eye, starting the Dawn War and his everlasting Cult of the Elemental Evil (so, yes, Prince of the Apocalypse has to do with Tharizdun, that means that the guy won his place in the Realms in the end).
So, he is basically the three things, but in fact he is really a god.
Notice that in 4e, Tharizdun is an independent being from Ghaunadaur, though Ghaunadaur somehow answered the prayers directed to Tharizdun in the Realms (and this is a 3e stuff). So, those two are allies or related somehow, but still different beings.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, what's this about 1340 DR and Tharizdun (I see something on the wiki, but it doesn't go into detail)?
It has to do with Tharizdun's plot to be free of his ancient prison. To do this, he unleash his Abyssal Plague across the multiverse, including the Realms. In the end, the plan fails, as the Voidharrow betrays him.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Seldarine intervened with the creation of Evermeet to prevent further destruction. In the novel Evermeet, after the creation of the island, the Seldarine express both approval and disapproval. Approval because the elven haven was created, disapproval because of the destruction it wrought. The magic got away from the mages, and the Seldarine had to step in. I still don't think the elves changed the timeline to the point they erased it, because that would make them and the Seldarine more powerful than Ao. I love the elves (even as most others hate them lol), but I won't give them or the Seldarine that kind of power LOL.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
However, just for speculation (I know we're trying to fix the canon issues, but bear with me), what if the "magic" used in the high elven ritual is in fact the power of the gods?
I don't want to give the elves this kind of power, as well. Not because they are elves, but because is something too much powerful for a mere mortal to accomplish. Even the gods cannot do this stuff.
But the change in the timeline will fix many issues.
That's why my proposal is that they somehow tapped into the energy/power/whatevs Ao used to create the Original Sundering, accidentally or not (maybe Ao allowed it) but as they don't had an appropriate focus for that kind of energy to be used (Ao used the Tablets of Fate to channel and balance the energy of both the Original and the Second Sunderings*), the elves were screwed up and caused so much devastation in the process.
*This is the canon stuff. And I like Markustay approach to fix the canon using canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So now we have to figure out why are their two (or more) groups? Whats the difference? How about this - 'spontaneous' and 'created'?
Reduced to the most basic bare-bones of the idea:
The primordials are chaos. They want change. In 4e core lore, they created the world, but wanted to destroy it again to create it once more, at infinitum. They wanted for things to be in a state of perpetual change.
The gods (or estelars) represent "stability", order (not necessarily law, just order). They want for things to be ordered and with a proper place and function in the cosmos. The Dawn War started because they wanted the mortal world to be stable rather than in a state of perpetual change. So, in other words, is like that if they were created with a purpose (maintain the status quo).
Mind, this is the 4e prerogative (that's why they changed the alignments), but if we ignore that (or if we find a why for this to work with the gygaxian alignments), I guess this fits perfectly with your idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Draækons may actually be a hybrid
4e has this kind of beigns (not widely used in lore, but we know they existed) that were "neither gods or primordials, but kin to both" (like the Guardian of the Living Gate). I guess this fits with your draækons.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm calling 'Drækons' are really just those 'Primal Spirits'
Primal spirits were different entities to estelars, primordials and their other "kin", they were... mmm, the animist will/force, I guess, of the worlds.
Yeah, is kinda confusing, but in 4e had its logic: those beings granted the players their "power sources".
Arcane: Archfey
Divine: Gods (Estelars)
Elemental: Primordials
Martial: Raw willpower from mortal races*
Primal: Primal spirits
Psionic: "Neither gods or primordials, but kin to both"/Aberrants/whatever**
Shadow: Dark Powers (the same from Ravenloft, in fact)
*Yes, in 4e the martial power source was somehow a "supernatural force" that allowed heroes to do stuff no ordinary people could. Like destroying buildings with their bare fists and that anime-ish stuff.
**There isn't a clear answer on how the psionic power worked in 4e.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if someone else was Realmspace's Overgod? Mystryl? Asgoroth? And then they were destroyed. Can we do something with that? My first thought was Asgoroth (Io), but then I thought, we never really saw Ao during Mystryl's reign, only after Karsus' Folly. Also, I thought Io was Greyhawk's Overgod?
Isn't Shar the manifestation of an older Overpower or something like that? There is a canon precedent for this, though. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 00:47:13 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 00:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My footnotes above got to big - I wanted to make another point, concerning another theory that is only partially mine. The Great wheel is the single greatest 'artifact' in existence. it was the first 'construct'; somehting artificial built for a siguar purpose. but what purpose? That was theory others had, that I ran with...
What if, when Io/Asgorath/The World Serpent was rent asunder, all that wonderful, divine, finite energy spilled out all over the place? What if that why the world serpent lay in a coma now? Literally, its life's blood has almost all oozed out. So what if Jazirian and Ahriman were trying to recollect it - to put itself back together? What if the Spinning Great Wheel is some sort of funnel-like vortex, recollecting all that 'spirit energy' (what the Native Americans call 'The Great Spirit"). like most other energies in the universe, it would have a 'positive' and a 'negative' side to it. Recollecting all the 'soul stuff' that spilled-out into the Prime Material (which is why all the souls go to the Outer Planes), with Jazirian and Ahriman representing the two 'poles' of energy (they power the machine, until its done with its job).
This just makes me think of Wheel of Time series LOL, even though I'm aware they're different. I just think of that series whenever I think of "the Great Wheel", and the World Serpent, since the Aes Sedai wore the ring with the serpent eating its tail.
All of this being a dream of a comatose being opens up another can of worms, because "everything being a dream" means that everything is false...including Leira, the master of illusions lol.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Aug 2017 00:36:44 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 01:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On Dragons, dragon-gods, and all things 'scaly'
After having reading too much of canon stuff... your theory makes more sense than canon.
And a unrelated question: Why in 2e every bit of lore was so unreliable, yet still, later products within the same edition (such as novels) took it as granted?
I know this was done for DM's to have liberties in their campaigns, but this is not a good thing if we are talking about a setting with a progressive story. In such kind of works, specific, reliable stuff is better if someone wants to make a cohesive history, and even a necessity when that cohesive history is made by multiple authors.
I'm beginning to think that all those retcons post-3e were made because of the unreliability of 2e.
The Dragon Age franchise has the same problem right now, because of this same stuff (the first game was too unreliable and left too much to the decisions of the player for the next games to be able to have a cohesive, logical and progressive story without retconing stuff). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:12:24
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Okay, I think I am caught up, lol. Anyway, some thoughts on what has been said...
1. I am in favor of ignoring the 4E core rationale for having all of these different power groups for different types of powers because that feels too gamist, and it obviously does not even match up to the current edition of D&D. However, we still need lore explanations for why they exist independent from the gamnist reasons.
2. I was having similar thoughts to Markus regarding the Primordials / Estelar. Basically, we have the "new" 4E way of looking at things and the "old" way of looking at things. We had similar beings in previous editions--elemental princes, archfiends, archfey, what-ever-the-hell we were supposed to call the celestial equivalent of archfiends, etc. Prior to my growing understanding of 4th edition lore, I just labeled all those guys "primordials" because I thought it was a more catchy name than "outsiders," lol.
One of the serious problems that we are having--that no one seems to be directly addressing--is how we reconcile well-established Realmslore with the concept of Estelar and Primordials. Estelar--basically a fancy 4E word for deities--clearly existed prior to mortals. However, Realmslore has deities fading away and dying as they lost their mortal worshipers well before the Time of Troubles.
Of course, also in fairness, there is some argument that some deities existed prior to their mortal worshipers--Corellon being a decent example. So, it is very clear that deities--at least some of them--having mortal worshipers was necessary.
So, my thinking was that the Estelar were essentially the first deities--the original ones. They were not deities in the way that we would think of them in a modern Realms context, but more akin to powerful Archfiends or Archfey. They may have even been these types of beings at one point, prior to mortal veneration and modern concepts of divine ascension.
Similar to Markus was saying, I sort-of see the Estelar and the Primordials as beings that are born out of a cosmological sense of balance and need. The cosmos needs X to keep the balance so the cosmos gets X. I would lean toward embracing the 4E core idea of the primordials representing some sort of overarching 'cosmological change' while the Estelar represent some sort of overarching 'cosmological stability' arch-type... but I think that breaks down in Realmslore, doesn't it? I mean we have canon evidence of Primordials switching sides and basically ascending to divinity. This blows that whole concept up, seemingly.
So, maybe rather than that, the primordials want to see the world returned to its 'primordial state.' In the same way Shar wants to see the Realms returned to some sort of nihilistic void of nothingness, the primordials want to return the cosmos to its raw unaltered state. This would give them the ability to shape the cosmos to their own desires, essentially liberating them from the laws of nature. The Estalar--'the first deities'--meanwhile, require those laws of nature to exist and function. It is those laws of nature that give them any sort of power at all. I mean, places like the Feywild are as chaotic as the Elemental Chaos, but the fey there are able to shape the Feywild to their will--whereas they cannot do the same to the Elemental Chaos. If the Primordials are successful, then they--the fey--would cease to exist.
...and these things may not seem rational to a mortal mind. However, these are fundamentally alien beings, born of the cosmology to serve a purpose. Toward that end, they do not have free will the same way that mortals do. For example, Asmodeus is never going to wake up one day and feel guilt over at all the evil he has brought into the cosmology. It is impossible for Asmodeus to do something good for the sake of it--doing so would be as alien to him as an ant suddenly learning how to do algebra. It's just not a physical possibility.
3. I want to, if at all possible, find a way to push the Dawn War off into the planes. Keep it away from Abeir-Toril if possible. This not only gives us room to maneuver, but it makes some of the things in the 4E Creation Mythology much easier to accept and incorporate. This also makes sense, because the Dawn War touches many different worlds.
4. We need to solve the problem of Ao and the "Over-Powers." We also have the problem of Ao's master, the Luminous One. My thinking here basically has the Luminous One be the equivalent of the "Over-Power" of the cosmology. Whereas Ao oversees a Crystal Sphere like the Realms, the Luminous One oversees the entire cosmology. So, what I propose is that we have the Dawn War happen. The balance is seriously disrupted, and the Luminous One has to step in. This leads to the creation of Ao and the other "Over-Powers." These lesser "Over-Powers" then create the Crystal Spheres. There is some changes to the cosmos in response to their creation as well, which is undetermined... but basically what is happening is that the Luminous One is shifting the war of the Primordials and the Estelar to the Crystal Spheres--to the Prime Material Worlds. Each Crystal Sphere is basically a self-contained universe with its own laws (thus our entire universe would be inside a Crystal Sphere), and these Crystal Spheres would exist within the Astral Sea. I have been working on a Unified Cosmological Model that takes into consideration the Great Wheel, World Tree, and the World Axis cosmologies--then attempts to unify some of their concepts.
I'll introduce the cosmology I have been working on later, but basically one of the dividing points between the Primordials and the Estelar/deities--is that they can connect their divine domains to the Crystal Spheres easily and naturally. Primordials cannot do that without ascending to divinity (similar to Kossuth). This deals with the whole canon issue of Primordials not being multi-spheric, but Estelar being multi-sphere--as well as the problems with Primordials like Kossuth.
Anyway, this is a complicated and knotted up ball of yarn. However, I am confident that we can find a way to untangle it.  |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Of course, also in fairness, there is some argument that some deities existed prior to their mortal worshipers--Corellon being a decent example. So, it is very clear that deities--at least some of them--having mortal worshipers was necessary.
Isn't "needing mortal faith" a necessity of deities in the Realms only?
Deities from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and other settings don't have this necessity. They have mortal followers to increase their powers, not because they need them to survive. The only deities needing mortal faith for survival stuff are the deities in the Realms, as far as I'm aware.
I always though this was some rule of Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
but I think that breaks down in Realmslore, doesn't it? I mean we have canon evidence of Primordials switching sides and basically ascending to divinity. This blows that whole concept up, seemingly.
This also happened in 4e lore. There wasn't an Ubtao, but there was Zamaan Rul and Bristia Pel, and others.
This happened because the Dawn War was threatening with destroying everything. And primordials wanted change, not destruction. So, they helped the gods to avoid the utter annihilation of all.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
We need to solve the problem of Ao and the "Over-Powers." We also have the problem of Ao's master, the Luminous One.
Is this absolutely necessary for the Ckanon to function as intended? Or is just for completion sake? Because we can always use the WotC solution.
"Ao? He is healthy, thanks for asking".
Unless you're about to run a campaign dealing with the overpowers, I guess we can just acknowledge they exist. I don't see the necessity to clarify their nature, or the motives of the Dawn War beyond what is known in myth unless there is a campaign that deals specifically with this stuff.
Even your cosmology project can work perfectly without dealing with the overpowers. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 06:30:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:38:17
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BEWARE! Ugly ginormous wall-of-text ahead! {apologies}
I've read Wheel of time, and I hadn't even thought of that connection to 'the Great Wheel' (its actually a totally different concept - in D&D, we have the Temporal Prime, not a wheel (its a river, with many branches). I hadn't remembered about the Aes Sedai having the rings, either. I've borrowed other things from that series, but not that (I'd love something like the Aiel down in the Shaar, and my "Bay'Maer" (I think thats what I called them, in my one CKC article) were definitely inspired by the Atha'an Miere (and the Beysib of the Thieves World series - mine are a hybrid of the two, right down to the name).
Shar being a 'manifestation of an older power' - this totally works, within the framework I am trying to put together. There was an Overgod of Realmspace called Asgoroth (as there was one called 'Io' in Greyspace' - they are just aspects of the same ancient 'World Serpent'), and it was killed in the 'War of the Gods'. Ao shows up, takes the two halves and create Shar and Selûne ('two sides of the same coin'), and takes over as 'Overgod of Realmspace', hoding the position as regent, until another power can be found, or the original restored (from the two halves).
I don't need to specify which war/battle 'of the gods' that happened in, or even if this happened everywhere (one mega-event, or the same event, repeating over and over in all the different Crystal Spheres. The conflict between "the two halves that were once one" is running-theme throughout the multiverse. And by putting the cart before the horse (or a 'Mystryl'-like figure before the two sisters, I establish that at some point ao wasn't around (in realmspace), and then later showed up to 'set things right'. This helps with some timeline fudgery, but mostly so we can say he is both a multispheric Overpower, AND 'the overpower of Realmspace' - something I used to call a 'Spheric Guardian'). Overgods 'guard stuff' (protect it), thats what they do. they are the original Estelar (created gods) from concepts of other beings - beings that wanted some sense of 'permanency'.
So we have the Elves that 'mucked about with time'. BTW, I never even meant to imply the elves were more powerful than Ao. In fact, somewhere (some old source) its specifically states that High Magic rituals (at least some of them, and most certainly the one that created Evermeet) are mepower by 'divine magic' They give the spell that little extra 'oomph'. Like those old cars you had to 'crank up', or give them a push to get them started ('pop the clutch', and YES, I am THAT old). but one things about those cars - if you and your friends started pushing, and it started to roll downhill, it may 'get away from you' (especially when your friend doesn't jump back into the driver's seat on time LOL). Well, thats what happens with High Magic - the Seldarine give that little extra 'push' (and the dwarves have something similar with their Rune magic, BTW), but just like the car going downhill with no driver, sometimes the spell 'latches on' to something else to get the job done, and it gets away from THEM 9'the gods'). Especially if its something an overgod did (because compared to them, normal 'gods' - deities - are like micky Mouse in The Sorcerer's Apprentice; in way over their heads).
So now I have it where the elves aren't all that powerful, they just have 'powerful friends'. And those friends aren't really 'all that' either - they may know how to throw the switch to get the nuclear reactor started, but they couldn't begin to tell you how it all worked. so then why couldn't Ao stop them? maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. maybe there are RULES to these sorts of things (The Sidereal Kronos doesn't like people screwing with HIS domain). what if its like doctor Who? (Ye gads! MarkusTay isn't really looking for 'scientific theory' in that bloody mess, is he?!*) Yes, I dare to tread where no loremaster hath gone before... deep into stupidity.
But I get inspiration from EVERYWHERE. Marvel Comics helps a lot when I try to picture how the 'cosmic beings' all work (together, and against each other). But when you are looking for rules regarding time Paradoxes, look no further than DW. Why can't the doctor 'go back' and make changes to save people and stuff? FIXED TIME. He can't 'cross' his own timeline (although he does cheat like crazy). Even something like Ao has to answer to the 'Higher Powers' (and canonically, we know there is at least one). In my homebrew Over-Cosmology, I have (thus far) eleven 'Super Gods', each responsible for one major law/plane of reality. And the one in charge of time - Kronos - won't allow paradoxes to form (which is why he has the Inevitables to police time (and they police the other rules of physics - there are different types).
This means if Ao did something major - like separate a world into two parts to keep 'the gods' from killing each other (and everyone else) - and then someone else did something REALLY stupid, like 'tap into' that magic (The Sundering) and made modifications to it 9so it would create a very specific thing they wanted), Ao could not go back and 'un-do' what he did the first time, because then he would have had no reason to 'go back' in the first place (I suppose he could leave himself a note, like Bill & Ted did, but Overpowers aren't that smart... and they HAVE TO 'play by the rules', because they ARE the living manifestations of said rules). So you can never make changes in the past of your own timeline, because those changes would cause you not to have gone back at all. Paradox. Ao has the power, he just won't break the rules (only a completely chaotic/insane god would try to break the rules of time & space).
And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.
Say what now?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2017 06:40:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:40:31
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Ayup. It happened again. It keeps happening. Time is 'broken'. Somehow, a sun god (that probably shouldn't even exist, except for the events of the Dawn War) tapped into something he shouldn't have, and we have all sorts of 'temporal weirdness' happening. Could Lathander had performed a ritual like the elves, and 'reached back' to fix something - some wrong he felt needed righting - and instead found the 'weak spot' that Ao already had to 'patch' - the spot the elves already broke? Could some of what happened as a result of that was that pieces of one timeline were swapped for the other? That things that were 'lost to time' became reality again. like maybe the fact that we have Shevarash appear in a novel some 30K or so years before he was even created? and that involved the elves.. when they were making the dracorage mythal. A 'High magic Ritual' they cast to control dragons.
Heck, how could that go wrong? Its not like the elves have ever completed FUBAR'd something with one of their rituals and caused a major cataclysm... this week. Each time they do one of those, I theorize they create 'weak spots' in the timeline. Places that other beings can exploit, to steer 'prophesy' down alternate paths (like Shar's Black Chronology). And, of course, this sort of 'wish magic' (using the 'Butterfly Effect' to create desired results at a latter time) is ALWAYS of the 'Monkeys Paw' variety. Or if you prefer, like the rules of Alchemy from FMA - "The Law of Equivalent Exchange". The Seldarine knew helping the elves create Evermeet would destroy Tintageer in the past, and they couldn't do a damn thing about it. For them, it already happened, which lead to the (High) elves arriving on Toril, which lead to the casting of the ritual - it was a circle they couldn't break.
So when someone thinks I am saying the elves are 'uber powerful', or even that 'the gods' are, even more so than Overpowers (or Uber-Overpowers, in Ao's case LOL), I am actually saying the exact opposite. They have to abide certain cosmic rules. Everyone does. Once they know they put a series of events into motion, they have to let it play out, even if they know it will destroy them. I personally think the only reason why Kiaransalee agreed to the savra game was because it was already 'foretold'. She knew she was going to do it, therefor she had to do it. Lloth used to be 'Ausrushnee the Weaver'. Part of what she did for the elves is spin the 'Tapestry of Fate' (that part is conjecture, based upon other mythos). Lolth may have tricked her into viewing the tapestry of fate, and seeing her own future, thus locking her into the savra game (and proving that ALL prophesies become 'self fulfilling' by their very nature).
And here's the kicker - this is all based upon 'power level' (no super-saiyans!) The more powerful the being (except for crazy, chaotic ones who are trying to break reality), the more they are forced to adhere to the rules of the universe. And it goes for those rules as well - the more important the rule itself, the more you can't defy it without repercussions. So an uber-being following an uber-rule would have absolutely no course of action open to them other then follow it to the letter (otherwise, the sheer magnitude of the deviation would break the universe). the smaller the being, and the smaller the 'rule', the easier it is to break without 'divine retribution'. Some lowly mortal bring his friend back with a res-spell? No problem. You'll probably annoy a couple of deities, but so what? Unless you get REALLY unlucky - like your casting that 'res' in on unholy ground from a battlefield where gods died, or you roll a '1' and break your staff of the Magi at that exact moment, etc., etc. - the universe isn't even going to hiccup.
Its the one thing 'the gods' are jealous of over mortals - FREE WILL. We can use it, they can't. At least, not without stirring the s*** pot. This is why evil gods try to trick mortals into breaking fundamental laws that they themselves won't break. We saw how Mystra acted in Hell - she knew she was breaking some major rules being there, and had to 'tread carefully'. And what did she have to do? USE MORTALS to accomplish her ends. She just couldn't do it herself, despite all her power.
So I guess, in a weird way, I just ended this with , "YES, mortals are sometimes more powerful than Uber-Overgods"... because they can make choices...
...without having the whole of reality burst like an over-full balloon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2017 06:41:46 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Isn't "needing mortal faith" a necessity of deities in the Realms only?
Deities from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and other settings don't have this necessity. They have mortal followers to increase their powers, not because they need them to survive. The only deities needing mortal faith for survival stuff are the deities in the Realms, as far as I'm aware.
I always though this was some rule of Ao.
This is a murky rule even in the Realms. It is something that is ill defined. There is evidence for deities in Realmspace dying due to lack of worshipers prior to the Time of Troubles, but post-Time of Troubles Ao claims that he is going to make the deities dependent on their mortal worshipers to survive. As a result, we see direct evidence of deities dying post-Time of Troubles due to lack of worshipers. However, Ao seems to change stuff in 5th edition. There is also lore evidence (as is related to creator deities such a Corellon and Mordin) that seem to have existed prior to the creation of their mortal faithful (because they created them).
It's something that is just unclear. We have evidence for both prior to the Time of Troubles and after the Time of Troubles, and of course rules for different Crystal Spheres as well. To add another layer, many deities were multi-spheric, meaning that they could die in one sphere but be alive in another.
I am trying to find a way to reconcile all of this, and hopefully, I will have something to present soon. However, the crux of it will deal with the nature of ascension.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Is this absolutely necessary for the Ckanon to function as intended? Or is just for completion sake? Because we can always use the WotC solution.
"Ao? He is healthy, thanks for asking".
Unless you're about to run a campaign dealing with the overpowers, I guess we can just acknowledge they exist. I don't see the necessity to clarify their nature, or the motives of the Dawn War beyond what is known in myth unless there is a campaign that deals specifically with this stuff.
Even your cosmology project can work perfectly without dealing with the overpowers.
Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.
I seem to recall Ao trying to cause people to forget about his existence, then, of course, they make sure he is added to the most popular creation mythology for the setting. LOL. They make sure he stays at the center of things.
I think it makes sense to leave stuff about Ao and the Dawn War as murky as possible. However, we have to acknowledge their existence, and because of that we at least have to figure out where they came from and what they do. What they did and how they did it is where things can get murky, but we have to understand them in the context of the big picture--how they all fit together as a greater whole.
...hopefully that makes sense. What I am trying to say is that we have all of these different groups, the Primordials, the Estelar, the Overpowers, etc. We have to figure out what they are and why they exist. After that, we can leave most everything murky. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 07:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.
The Dawn Cataclysm... Can you point me out to the sourcebook were they talk of this event? I'm curious about it, but I don't know in what book I can read about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.
Yeah, but after the Second Sundering, Ao and other gods, for that matter, are just decorative background. To cite the FR Wiki
quote:
Originally posted by FR Wiki
The Sundering brought significant changes to how the deities approached mortals. Many gods became "quieter" than before, causing the emergence of new priesthoods to try to explain the different behaviour. That, however, didn't mean that deities couldn't still be seen interacting more directly with mortals. Mystra was still able to directly commune with her Chosen, while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun personally let their return be known, manifesting through their avatars to their followers. Eilistraee, in particular, was seen dancing and speaking to mortals in many places, especially along the Sword Coast (including Waterdeep, where she was witnessed dancing under the walls of the city in 1491 DR). The Mulhorandi gods still ruled among their people, directly interacting with them.
---
Gods have, to an extent, withdrawn from the world, ushering in a kind of 'Age of Mortals'. They are no longer speaking directly to most of their worshipers, instead sending signs and portents e.g. In the Rise of Tiamat storyline, Tiamat's followers are doing all of the work to bring her onto the Material Plane, whereas before the Second Sundering, she likely would have sent an Avatar to do some of the work.
So, unless you're planning to do a project regarding gods, I suggest we just leave them be, like the decorative stuff they became in 5e (yeah, I think they killed one of the main unique features of the Realms, that you meet with gods even in your supper...).
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I think it makes sense to leave stuff about Ao and the Dawn War as murky as possible. However, we have to acknowledge their existence, and because of that we at least have to figure out where they came from and what they do. What they did and how they did it is where things can get murky, but we have to understand them in the context of the big picture--how they all fit together as a greater whole.
...hopefully that makes sense. What I am trying to say is that we have all of these different groups, the Primordials, the Estelar, the Overpowers, etc. We have to figure out what they are and why they exist. After that, we can leave most everything murky.
Here is as I understand it.
Supreme Overpower appears (Master, Luminous Being, whatever), created multiverse.
Minor Overpowers appear (Ao, Lady of Pain, the Serpent, the World Serpent, etc.), set about to order this multiverse.
Concepts appear (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Neutrality). Begin to fight because reasons. Create agents for this war, such as Obyriths, and those.
Gods and primordials appears. They create mortal worlds and the first mortals.
Dawn War, multiverse in chaos. Some primordials join the gods. Multiverse is saved.
Individual histories of each sphere.
Beyond the creation of the world, I really doubt mortals need to know more. The Luminous Being exist, yeah. Do mortals know about it? I dunno. They barely know about Ao and the gods.
They need to know about this? I don't think so.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 07:29:02 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 12:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.
The Dawn Cataclysm... Can you point me out to the sourcebook were they talk of this event? I'm curious about it, but I don't know in what book I can read about it.
There are notes about it throughout Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons. It does not refer to a single isolated event, but rather a series of events that took place over a period of time. The general consensus in the lore is that it began after the fall of Netheril, and resulted in the death or alteration of numerous deities.
The in canon explanation for things is that Lathander was attempting to re-shape the pantheon in his image. Basically, if you look at the other pantheons (Elven, Multhorandi, Dwarven, Orcish, etc.) you will see that these pantheons have a 'leader'. It is implied that Lathander was trying to become that deity for the Faerunian Pantheon and that he, in particular, wanted to get rid of all of the evil deities.
Obviously, he failed. We ended up with the pantheon that we see in canon.
If you take a close reading of the lore, you can basically see what happened. There was a period of large human migration and cultural intermixing. This started to cause the pantheons of many different human ethnic groups to begin intermixing. Just as the Netherese once had their own pantheon of deities, and the Mulhorandi and the Untheric people had their pantheons--the same was true for other Faerunian human ethnic groups as well. There was the Calishite pantheon, the Talfric pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, etc. We have the names of some of their deities that did not make it, or began to be absorbed by deities of other pantheons.
This was something like a Time of Troubles style event that played out over the course of decades and centuries. It's not something that happened all at once. And, honestly, Lathander probably gets blamed for it unjustly. It had more to do with Ao's rule that no deity greater than demi-god could hold the same portfolio in the same pantheon. Thus, the conflict was inevitable as the pantheons began merging.
We were starting to see the beginnings of this type of conflict in the Old Empires, after the fall of Unther, between the Mulhorandi and Faerunian pantheon. There were already opening salvo's happening in the battle for Unther between the various cults.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.
Yeah, but after the Second Sundering, Ao and other gods, for that matter, are just decorative background. To cite the FR Wiki
quote:
Originally posted by FR Wiki
The Sundering brought significant changes to how the deities approached mortals. Many gods became "quieter" than before, causing the emergence of new priesthoods to try to explain the different behaviour. That, however, didn't mean that deities couldn't still be seen interacting more directly with mortals. Mystra was still able to directly commune with her Chosen, while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun personally let their return be known, manifesting through their avatars to their followers. Eilistraee, in particular, was seen dancing and speaking to mortals in many places, especially along the Sword Coast (including Waterdeep, where she was witnessed dancing under the walls of the city in 1491 DR). The Mulhorandi gods still ruled among their people, directly interacting with them.
---
Gods have, to an extent, withdrawn from the world, ushering in a kind of 'Age of Mortals'. They are no longer speaking directly to most of their worshipers, instead sending signs and portents e.g. In the Rise of Tiamat storyline, Tiamat's followers are doing all of the work to bring her onto the Material Plane, whereas before the Second Sundering, she likely would have sent an Avatar to do some of the work.
So, unless you're planning to do a project regarding gods, I suggest we just leave them be, like the decorative stuff they became in 5e (yeah, I think they killed one of the main unique features of the Realms, that you meet with gods even in your supper...).
I support all of that. It is not important to running the Realms, but it is important to know from a lore and design perspective. It matters less on Toril, but it becomes more important as we discuss the cosmology and the multiverse.
All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them. The deities are real, they exist, they manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and various types of manifestations (a rosy glow over an altar for Lathander, as an example). They do not talk directly to mortals, 'This is where I want you to go, and what I want you to do...' They do not run around in avatar form and chill out with mortals...
The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.
However... when it comes to the cosmology we have to work some stuff out. Like, for example, Banehold is an actual place you can go to and visit. Is it possible to bump into Bane there? If not, then what does it look like? What does someone visiting this plane find and see? If the deities do not make physical appearances any longer (IMO that is my ideal) then we have to wonder what happens with the primordials.
Basically, this is why I like making the Estelar or 'first gods' different from those who have ascended to divinity. We could essentially just make Estelar the broad equivalent of Archfey, Archfiends, etc. They are of similar power and ability as primordials. They can still do battle with primordials. Ascended deities also need powerful servitors, so that when you visit Banehold you won't necessarily find Bane there, but you would find a powerful Arch-Devil who is a general and tyrant of the plane in service and communion with Bane. As for Bane himself... he *IS* Banehold. As in, that is his physical manifestation. Bane himself is divine energy and Banehold is a reflection of mortal belief about Bane, and as views of Bane shift over time Banehold shifts along with it.
I am working out some of the finer details of how it all works, and how to make things multispheric. I am using as a guidepost what is discussed in Faiths and Avatars--with the understanding (and freedom) that Ao could have altered some things when he rewrote the Tablets of Fate. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 18:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Of course, also in fairness, there is some argument that some deities existed prior to their mortal worshipers--Corellon being a decent example. So, it is very clear that deities--at least some of them--having mortal worshipers was necessary.
Isn't "needing mortal faith" a necessity of deities in the Realms only?
Deities from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and other settings don't have this necessity. They have mortal followers to increase their powers, not because they need them to survive. The only deities needing mortal faith for survival stuff are the deities in the Realms, as far as I'm aware.
I always though this was some rule of Ao.
There are deities (like Corellon) who existed before their followers, so they don't need mortal worshipers to have power. However, perhaps one of the "rules" for creating a race is that, once you do, you have to have followers. In a way, it's the deity's responsibility to make sure their creations follow them once they make them. It's like parenting. All right, you had this child, now you have to take care of it LOL.
Also, perhaps having mortal faith further stimulates the deity's powers. So, while not a necessity (at least until the ToT), followers give deities that extra boost.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 18:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Of course, also in fairness, there is some argument that some deities existed prior to their mortal worshipers--Corellon being a decent example. So, it is very clear that deities--at least some of them--having mortal worshipers was necessary.
Isn't "needing mortal faith" a necessity of deities in the Realms only?
Deities from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and other settings don't have this necessity. They have mortal followers to increase their powers, not because they need them to survive. The only deities needing mortal faith for survival stuff are the deities in the Realms, as far as I'm aware.
I always though this was some rule of Ao.
There are deities (like Corellon) who existed before their followers, so they don't need mortal worshipers to have power. However, perhaps one of the "rules" for creating a race is that, once you do, you have to have followers. In a way, it's the deity's responsibility to make sure their creations follow them once they make them. It's like parenting. All right, you had this child, now you have to take care of it LOL.
Also, perhaps having mortal faith further stimulates the deity's powers. So, while not a necessity (at least until the ToT), followers give deities that extra boost.
LOL @ the parenting analogy. Gruumsh is such an abusive father.
I am thinking of things in a similar light. Basically, mortal worship is required for ascension to divinity as we understand it today. However, there is a proto-state that some deities, like Corellon, existed in prior to ascension. In the same way that someone can be a mortal that ascends to divinity, someone can also be an Estelar and ascend to divinity. In their proto-state, the pre-ascension state of the Estelar, they are on par with the primordials.
Ascension to divinity has pros and cons associated with it, and not every Estelar would favor or desire ascension. Likewise, it may be harder for primordials to ascend to divinity (about as hard as a mortal), but some may choose to do so like Kossuth and other Primordials clearly did. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 19:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.
The Dawn Cataclysm... Can you point me out to the sourcebook were they talk of this event? I'm curious about it, but I don't know in what book I can read about it.
There are notes about it throughout Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons. It does not refer to a single isolated event, but rather a series of events that took place over a period of time. The general consensus in the lore is that it began after the fall of Netheril, and resulted in the death or alteration of numerous deities.
The in canon explanation for things is that Lathander was attempting to re-shape the pantheon in his image. Basically, if you look at the other pantheons (Elven, Multhorandi, Dwarven, Orcish, etc.) you will see that these pantheons have a 'leader'. It is implied that Lathander was trying to become that deity for the Faerunian Pantheon and that he, in particular, wanted to get rid of all of the evil deities.
Obviously, he failed. We ended up with the pantheon that we see in canon.
If you take a close reading of the lore, you can basically see what happened. There was a period of large human migration and cultural intermixing. This started to cause the pantheons of many different human ethnic groups to begin intermixing. Just as the Netherese once had their own pantheon of deities, and the Mulhorandi and the Untheric people had their pantheons--the same was true for other Faerunian human ethnic groups as well. There was the Calishite pantheon, the Talfric pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, etc. We have the names of some of their deities that did not make it, or began to be absorbed by deities of other pantheons.
This was something like a Time of Troubles style event that played out over the course of decades and centuries. It's not something that happened all at once. And, honestly, Lathander probably gets blamed for it unjustly. It had more to do with Ao's rule that no deity greater than demi-god could hold the same portfolio in the same pantheon. Thus, the conflict was inevitable as the pantheons began merging.
We were starting to see the beginnings of this type of conflict in the Old Empires, after the fall of Unther, between the Mulhorandi and Faerunian pantheon. There were already opening salvo's happening in the battle for Unther between the various cults.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.
Yeah, but after the Second Sundering, Ao and other gods, for that matter, are just decorative background. To cite the FR Wiki
quote:
Originally posted by FR Wiki
The Sundering brought significant changes to how the deities approached mortals. Many gods became "quieter" than before, causing the emergence of new priesthoods to try to explain the different behaviour. That, however, didn't mean that deities couldn't still be seen interacting more directly with mortals. Mystra was still able to directly commune with her Chosen, while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun personally let their return be known, manifesting through their avatars to their followers. Eilistraee, in particular, was seen dancing and speaking to mortals in many places, especially along the Sword Coast (including Waterdeep, where she was witnessed dancing under the walls of the city in 1491 DR). The Mulhorandi gods still ruled among their people, directly interacting with them.
---
Gods have, to an extent, withdrawn from the world, ushering in a kind of 'Age of Mortals'. They are no longer speaking directly to most of their worshipers, instead sending signs and portents e.g. In the Rise of Tiamat storyline, Tiamat's followers are doing all of the work to bring her onto the Material Plane, whereas before the Second Sundering, she likely would have sent an Avatar to do some of the work.
So, unless you're planning to do a project regarding gods, I suggest we just leave them be, like the decorative stuff they became in 5e (yeah, I think they killed one of the main unique features of the Realms, that you meet with gods even in your supper...).
I support all of that. It is not important to running the Realms, but it is important to know from a lore and design perspective. It matters less on Toril, but it becomes more important as we discuss the cosmology and the multiverse.
All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them. The deities are real, they exist, they manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and various types of manifestations (a rosy glow over an altar for Lathander, as an example). They do not talk directly to mortals, 'This is where I want you to go, and what I want you to do...' They do not run around in avatar form and chill out with mortals...
The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.
I'm catching up with this thread lol. It gets away from me so fast XD.
I've expressed before that I like the involvement of the gods, but I fully realize I am in the minority, and I agree that there comes a point when direct interaction becomes overblown. I'm willing to compromise. And, since Ed's original intention for the gods was to have the deities interact more indirectly (Lathander's rosy glow), I have to acknowledge and respect that. As long as their existence is acknowledged, and it isn't regulated to purely "faith" (as in we don't know for sure), I can live with it lol.
Even if the gods are "quieter", I still wish 5E would come out with a "god book", something like F&A and DD, for example. Those books are great for lore and understanding deities, IMO. One of the reasons I like cosmology and understanding the gods (well, as much as a mortal can, anyway) is because it helps make the world richer, and is part of the world-building. Plus, it allows for fun discussions like this one that get away from you.
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What if the Abeir / Toril "out of synch" is TIME
