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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 14:58:41
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I know a lot of you know this already, but in my United Tharchs of Toril, I'm bringing back the Zulkirs (or former Zulkirs or other important folk from Thay). Some are even coming back in lesser tiers than Zulkirs (a position within a school of magic I'm calling an Aulkir that is like a Zulkir in a Tharch). Anyway, I like to find an interesting way to do it. However, I'm starting to get a little punchy for ideas, and I just hate using the same thing over and over. So, there's one left that I just realized last night would be great in the role instead of me making up someone else on the fly. Just to layout my current roster of the existing ones and what I'm doing with them to get them back, here goes.
Just to note as well, I've added some additional "Thulkir"/"Khazir" positions for spellcasters (think lesser version of Zulkir/Aulkir) following certain types of paths of arcane magic for which is less stringently defined how you enter said school. Yeah, I know sounds a bit cryptic, so just to clear that up, they are the Academy of Arcane Craftmanship, Sorcerer's Society, Fellowship of Battlemages, and Guild of Arcane Spymasters
Anyway, on to the list of who I'm bringing back and how, and hopefully someone can come up with something nice for Jorgmacdon Odesseiron, binder of Eltab and first Zulkir of Conjuration under Thayd, before the Zulkirate was formed.
Lallara Mediocros (Zulkir of Abjuration) - She was alive in 1478 when last we saw her in the novels in the area with Szass Tam that he had created for working the dread ring ritual. Also, Zulkir Lauzoril had been simply told to jump off a cliff, which he could easily survive. So, the two of them join forces and work together to break through Tam's defenses and alter his memories (using special spells that even work on undead) so that he believed that he had killed them both. When Tam leaves the special extradimensional space, Lallara and Lauzoril find themselves trapped and time begins to pass weirdly. The sundering 2.0 actually "pops" them out of this demiplane.
Jorgmacdon Odesseiron (Zulkir of Conjuration) - Note, he wasn't part of the Zulkirate. He was a Zulkir in that he was a lieutenant of Thayd's. I'm picturing him as Mulan, but having delved into many mysteries of ancient Narfell, Raumathar, and Imaskar. Also thinking to have him having an enslaved lesser demon lord/lady or former demon lord/lady. What is a good way to bring him back while he is in Abeir?
Yaphyll Sirtula (Zulkir of Divination) - Tam made her split herself in two and send a portion of herself into the future for a divination (from the novel Undead). Yaphyll "hit" the spellplague, which enabled her to free herself in the past from Tam. Its the future self which survived and transferred to Abeir.
Lauzoril Tavai (Zulkir of Enchantment) - There are actually 2 different Lauzorils. The first was a clone on Abeir in the city of Soorenar. His daughter, Mimuay, became a host for the avatar of Velsharoon. She touched the clone and Lauzoril awoke (note I'm also having her touch a clone of Dmitra Flass in Cimbar, though this clone does not have the memories of herself as a Zulkir, and she became an Aulkir of Illusion in the Tharch of Peleveran) .
Mythrell'aa (Zulkir of Illusion) - She faked her death during the Thayan civil war when Yaphyll told her that she would be seen to be dead at the hands of Szass Tam. She also used a special ritual to make everyone think her name was Mythrellan to make finding her harder. She then moved to a Netherese Enclave in orbit named Doubloon (renamed by her to Luneira).
Mimuay (Zulkir of Necromancy) - This is Lauzoril's daughter all grown up. I've written up a decent portion of her backstory advancing after the events of the novel, the Simbul's Gift, that introduced her. She is becoming instrumental in some of the things I'm doing, though I hadn't really planned for that. She's not so much coming back from the dead so much as I'm advancing her story.
Talaskos Murthrond (Zulkir of Transmutation) - This guys is from Dragon 427, the article on Worldfire. There's little lore, but the Hooded One said he was a Transmuter when asked. Here's what little we know.
Talaskos Murthrond is a handsome, purring-voiced former Zulkir of Thay who long ago foresaw Szass Tam’s rise, faked his own demise, and departed his homeland for a skulking existence spent hiding in remote places of Faerûn amid magical mists.
Anyway, longwinded I know, but what's an interesting way to bring back Jorgmacdon Odesseiron? I'm wondering if it might not involve Thayd somehow.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 15:05:38
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Stuck in a soul gem?
I know that happened to that first king of Mithril Hall. Funny, I wouldn't have thought a Tel'Kiira could be used as a phylactory. Then again, they are designed to record memories... maybe that one was a Selu'Kiira. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 21:52:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 16:00:20
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Trapped in a mirror of life trapping, some form of imprisonment... If he's got a connection to fiends and such, perhaps he was possessed for a while (willingly or no), and didn't age while possessed. It's only recently that he has reclaimed his body from the fiend.
You could also go with him having been undead, and then figuring out a way to get back in a living body. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 20:45:03
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| The Spellplague didn't killed or mutated all it touched. It also froze in time people (like the protagonists of the sword mage novel), or sent people through time into the future (this in the 4e FRPG). You can use this with some of your Zulkirs. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 21:55:09
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Mechanically, there really isn't much difference between being stuck in stasis somewhere, and time-travel. At least not to the person/being it is affecting.
You know what would be really weird (which means for the Spellplague/Sundering/Wild Magic its perfect)? Being 'stuck' in time, but not being 'stopped' (or moved forward). The character has a permanent slow-motion on them, so that the rest of the world looks like it is flying past them. They have to be stuck in some remote location, maybe looking out a window, and not being able to do anything about what is happening. If things are moving at 100x comparatively, that would mean they only age one year during that century (of course, you'd have to figure-out how they ate during that time, unless the whole room/structure they were in was affected, and there are supplies there).
So lets suppose its a tower. Anyone attempting to enter the tower would feel exquisite pain (if they put their hand through the doorway, their hand would then be moving at a different temporal speed than the rest of their body). If someone stuck their head in, someone else would have to pull them out (although I suppose even at 100x, it would only take them about an hour to pull their head back). Of course, their brain would be sending signal to the rest of their body at the slower speed as well. If you somehow managed to get your chest in without one or more of your limbs, those limbs could become necrotic, because the bloodflow wouldn't be fast enough.
Like I said, painful. Folks would probably just avoid the place ("it's cursed!"), and anyone inside would be trapped. On the other hand, a person should still be able to come down a flight of stairs and leave in about a day, so maybe make it 1000x. That could possibly tear a body apart if they tried to enter. Maybe just lock the door magically so no-one can get in or out until the time-displacement effect ends. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2017 03:32:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 00:48:20
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Hmmm, so the specific guy I'm looking for is Jorgmacdon Odesseiron to have back, so he wouldn't be around other folks during the spellplague (unlike the others). He would have disappeared between the Thayan Uprising in the 900's and the founding of the Zulkirate in 1030 DR. He also would have been involved with Thayd.
Until Markustay said that Thayd's description sounded like a Suel lich, I hadn't ever looked into a Suel lich. I agree, Thayd DOES sound like a Suel lich now (not saying he is Suel, but perhaps he uncovered lore from them... or maybe the reverse... maybe the Suel uncovered the secrets to making Suel liches from Thayd). There's also this whole black flame linkage (and a negative energy linkage) to the Suel Liches, and Kossuth is a "lord of the black flame" and has black flame zealots. Maybe there's a linkage. Anyway, I am kind of picturing something where maybe Thayd and Jorgmacdon went somewhere together to uncover lost lore, and maybe something happened to them both there.
Wooly, I like where you're going with alternate imprisonments. Stasis has been done too much. A mirror of life trapping is a neat idea. I like the idea of involving fiends with him too. Hmmm, so looking at the things that happened between the Thayan revolt against Mulhorand and the founding of the Zulkirate is the creation of Peleveran... which involves Gargauth .... and since I want the red wizards to found a Tharch after restoring Peleveran's Cliffside cavern city... hmmm, yeah, think maybe I want to put him trapped there somehow.... maybe at Gargauth's hands or something else.... maybe something to do with the Pit of Peleveran. Let me do some research. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Jul 2017 01:09:36 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 01:19:12
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Remember that the Spellplague affected time and space. Thanks to the Spellplague, places like Darkturret exist in the Realms. And Darkturret exist in times like the Days of Thunder, that have nothing to do with the Spellplague.
Despite all the hate it got, the Spellplague is one of the most useful tools 4e gave us. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 02:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Remember that the Spellplague affected time and space. Thanks to the Spellplague, places like Darkturret exist in the Realms. And Darkturret exist in times like the Days of Thunder, that have nothing to do with the Spellplague.
Despite all the hate it got, the Spellplague is one of the most useful tools 4e gave us.
Keep in mind most of the Darkturret stuff is 2010 LFR, and probably not WotC endorsed. The titbit we get about it in Dragon doesn't mention any timey-wimey stuff.
Whether or not you care about that endorsement is another thing. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 27 Jul 2017 02:06:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 03:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Keep in mind most of the Darkturret stuff is 2010 LFR, and probably not WotC endorsed. The titbit we get about it in Dragon doesn't mention any timey-wimey stuff.
Whether or not you care about that endorsement is another thing.
If is not contradicted by another product higher in the "canon hierarchy" (videogames, Ed, published stuff), I can't see why we cannot use LFR stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 03:42:37
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Trapped in a painting?
Say a fiend put him there, and until Ao did his 'UnSundering' thing and reset a bunch of crap, he was stuck'.
You can say he commissioned a portrait of himself, and a fiend told him to use these 'special pigments' it had (perhaps Jorgmacdon was attempting a 'Dorian Gray' kind of immortality?), and instead of having the effect he wanted, the when it was completed the painting 'sucked him in'. You can even say he was replaced with a doppleganger of sorts for a time (the actual portrait from the painting) under the control of the fiend, if you wanted.
And now I have a really bizarre episode of Spongebob stuck in my head...
EDIT
Oh, and he was completely conscious the whole time, but unable to act in any way. The frustration would have been maddening. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2017 03:43:41 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 08:27:18
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I am not 100% sure, but didn't 5E make some changes to the way Tam was doing things in Thay? Don't they have a council of Zulkir's now? I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe changes were made.
Personally, as someone who was not overly thrilled with what was done with Thay, I have considered altered means of bringing back a 'revamped' version of the Red Wizards. I figured the easiest way to do this was just having them setup on another world. It is canonically established that the Realms is connected to many other worlds, and Thay has close proximity to ancient Imaskar. This is close enough where a Red Wizard somewhere can find an ancient Imaskari gate to another world.
A simple explanation to make it all work is to have a number of Red Wizards, along with apprentices of dead Red Wizards, and other Mulans fleeing to this other world. Their basic goal could have been to hide out there, build up their forces, and once the Civil War was over, strike Thay while it was weak in an effort to reconquer it. Unfortunately, the Spellplague happened. This impacted the gateway to this other world, and it trapped them there... until the Sundering.
Have it so that they established an empire or kingdom in this other world, make some adjustments to the way the Red Wizards work--because 100+ years is a long time--and the Red Wizards do need a revamping. Then have the gateway reopen, and have them conquer some lands post-Sundering.
Basically, I figure a good place for the gate and for them to conquer would be the lands around Gbor Nor / Brightstar Lake--present day Murghôm and Semphar. Virtually no information is given about those regions post-Sundering, and I think only Murghôm was touched upon (briefly) in 4E. In that edition, the land of Murghôm was basically ruled by dragon princes. So this gets us to a place where we can have Tam's version of Thay, which some people like, and a re-vamped version of the old school Red Wizards, which other people (like myself) prefer to the undead version. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 13:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Trapped in a painting?
Say a fiend put him there, and until Ao did his 'UnSundering' thing and reset a bunch of crap, he was stuck'.
You can say he commissioned a portrait of himself, and a fiend told him to use these 'special pigments' it had (perhaps Jorgmacdon was attempting a 'Dorian Gray' kind of immortality?), and instead of having the effect he wanted, the when it was completed the painting 'sucked him in'. You can even say he was replaced with a doppleganger of sorts for a time (the actual portrait from the painting) under the control of the fiend, if you wanted.
And now I have a really bizarre episode of Spongebob stuck in my head...
EDIT
Oh, and he was completely conscious the whole time, but unable to act in any way. The frustration would have been maddening.
Hmmmm, I like this Markustay. I may have to somewhat change it up somehow to make it a little more interesting and him a little less duped. I'm also picturing it that he got trapped maybe in the Pit that held Gargauth. Which that pit may have links into "shattered night" from the Wells of Darkness adventure by Eric Boyd in Dungeon #148, so the idea of him using his own blood, bile, semen, etc... to make his pigments somehow as a means of entering one of the wells and using it to get out maybe??? I say this especially since Gargauth is mentioned to have involvement with the imprisoned Astaroth who is in one of those wells.
Hmmm, maybe he needed someone on the outside to "activate" the painting to set him free, and Thayd was supposed to do it, but Thayd maybe got attacked after Jorgmacdon went in. Maybe Thayd, unlike other Suel liches, also has a phylactery that he can retreat to, but he needs a living human body of sufficient hit die to transfer to and no one of sufficient hit dice has appeared in range since the incident. This would tie up very nicely how both Thayd and Jorgmacdon are gone at the founding of the Zulkirate just a few years later. I wasn't really looking to bring Thayd back as well, but what the hell.... that could be fun.... especially if the "Tharch of Peleveran" accepts some of the retreating High Imaskari as well. It could prove useful to have something of a split in factions in the wizards along actual racial lines (Mulan versus Imaskari descendant). I had also played with the idea that with Halruaa's return, maybe there's a new faction there over the last year that aren't seeing eye to eye with the rest, and maybe there's more Halruaan "red wizards" that are looking to leave when Halruaa returns. Peleveran would be a great place for this meeting of wizards from 3 mighty magical ancestries. The question though becomes where would Thayd fit in the Zulkir concept, as he's used to being the tyrant. Might be too "kewl" of a concept though, and I'm wary of getting too excited over something in the heat of an idea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 13:52:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Basically, I figure a good place for the gate and for them to conquer would be the lands around Gbor Nor / Brightstar Lake--present day Murghôm and Semphar. Virtually no information is given about those regions post-Sundering, and I think only Murghôm was touched upon (briefly) in 4E. In that edition, the land of Murghôm was basically ruled by dragon princes. So this gets us to a place where we can have Tam's version of Thay, which some people like, and a re-vamped version of the old school Red Wizards, which other people (like myself) prefer to the undead version.
Murghôn wouldn't make an easy target, really. Current Murghôn is a dragon-ruled realm, and those guys are powerful enough to change the balance of the Realms if they want to. They aren't compelled by the draco-rage anymore, so the dragons of the current Realms are as mighty as those of Eberron.
They almost destroyed nearly all the nations of the Alamber Sea during a xorvintaal (Brotherhood of the Griffon novels). That the Dragon Princes of Murghôm are somewhat an Eberronian dragon in behaviour (they can be good even if chromatic, and evil even if metallic) and stopped when asked nicely is another thing (and mostly, they did it because they learned Brimstone was using them, and that pissed them). If invaders come, though... well, the Dragon Princes of Murghôm aren't defenseless. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jul 2017 14:05:19 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 14:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Keep in mind most of the Darkturret stuff is 2010 LFR, and probably not WotC endorsed. The titbit we get about it in Dragon doesn't mention any timey-wimey stuff.
Whether or not you care about that endorsement is another thing.
If is not contradicted by another product higher in the "canon hierarchy" (videogames, Ed, published stuff), I can't see why we cannot use LFR stuff.
A good rule of thumb when it comes to Living Forgotten Realms adventures. The LFR adventures that Wizards of the Coast paid for should be considered canon. This would be all of the adventures with the “1-“ moniker and maybe a handful of “2-“ Any adventure after WotC stopped paying for probably will never be considered canon. As for the Adaptations they are LFR adventures that adapted mostly other non-realms content. For example, the Against the Giants series were adapted. I would only pay attention to the adaptations that came from Dungeons or Dragon magazines that were realms specific. For example, ADAP2-01 Monuments of the Ancients. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 14:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I am not 100% sure, but didn't 5E make some changes to the way Tam was doing things in Thay? Don't they have a council of Zulkir's now? I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe changes were made.
Personally, as someone who was not overly thrilled with what was done with Thay, I have considered altered means of bringing back a 'revamped' version of the Red Wizards. I figured the easiest way to do this was just having them setup on another world. It is canonically established that the Realms is connected to many other worlds, and Thay has close proximity to ancient Imaskar. This is close enough where a Red Wizard somewhere can find an ancient Imaskari gate to another world.
A simple explanation to make it all work is to have a number of Red Wizards, along with apprentices of dead Red Wizards, and other Mulans fleeing to this other world. Their basic goal could have been to hide out there, build up their forces, and once the Civil War was over, strike Thay while it was weak in an effort to reconquer it. Unfortunately, the Spellplague happened. This impacted the gateway to this other world, and it trapped them there... until the Sundering.
Have it so that they established an empire or kingdom in this other world, make some adjustments to the way the Red Wizards work--because 100+ years is a long time--and the Red Wizards do need a revamping. Then have the gateway reopen, and have them conquer some lands post-Sundering.
Basically, I figure a good place for the gate and for them to conquer would be the lands around Gbor Nor / Brightstar Lake--present day Murghôm and Semphar. Virtually no information is given about those regions post-Sundering, and I think only Murghôm was touched upon (briefly) in 4E. In that edition, the land of Murghôm was basically ruled by dragon princes. So this gets us to a place where we can have Tam's version of Thay, which some people like, and a re-vamped version of the old school Red Wizards, which other people (like myself) prefer to the undead version.
Aldrick,
It sounds like the two of us are going in similar but different directions. If you'd like to discuss some concepts along this path, I'm very far down that road. Just to give a quick overview of where I'm going:
A) Fort Flame in Anchorome / Northern Maztica is manned by the flaming fist and they need help. They're looking to Calishites for help with alchemical fire (canon lore). Homebrew: Samas Kul shows up and basically offers aid in the form of red wizards if the flaming fist simply enter a pact similar to their trade enclaves and cede a large swathe of land to them and propose an alliance (land that the Flaming Fist can't protect anyway). Thayan civil war later breaks out and a lot of Thayan citizens actually come here seeing this as "free land" and a new place to rebuild their shattered lives. This becomes known as the "Balduran Bay Enclave".
B) Samas Kul opens more trade enclaves down in the "Serpent Kingdoms" countries of Samarach (city of Samargol), Thindol (city of Lundeth), and Tashalar (city of Tashluta). Secret portals are established from these cities back to the "Balduran Bay Enclave". Also portals are established back to Cimbar, Soorenar, and Hlath for the transport of manufactured materials or lumber to Balduran Bay in relative secrecy.
C) Balduran Bay's citizen's decide to look for this fabled city of gold. They head toward the Pasocada basin on the Western side of Anchorome (see the TSR supplement City of Gold). The find an ancient ruined city filled with undead and constructs and powerful magic. They subvert the constructs under their own control, use magic to control the undead, and conquer a small portion of the surrounding territory. The land sucks though, so they know they will need to expand elsewhere for growing crops, etc... Over the next century (while in Abeir) this area is improved through magic somewhat as the red wizards build a lake out of the desert sands and build a city on an island at the center of said lake (the Great Glass Lake). Settlements also begin to dot the shoreline
D) Barely a few years after Esh Alakar is founded in Western Anchorome, the red wizards hear of "The Jungles of Lopango, Land of Fire" to the south. Naturally, the Kossuth loving red wizards are intrigued, and taking along some of the residents of Esh Alakar they expand south to these jungles that are south of Maztica. This society finds itself relatively safe, secure, and remote and they flourish. They also note that there's another continent nearby called Katashaka, but they're too concerned with just building basic infrastructure to explore.
E) Mythrell'aa fakes her death and takes up life on her recently in the past decade but secretly held Netherese Enclave in orbit (Doubloon, renamed Luneira) that's been fitted with a spelljamming helm that allows it to move but very slowly. She also makes somewhat of an alliance with the residents of the moon (who in fact are not elves, but ellefolk... some of which in Ravenloft call themselves the Arak, but this faction is not related to those)
E) Spellplague happens. All of Anchorome, Maztica, Katashaka transfer. Also strangely enough, so do the trade enclaves and some of the surrounding territories in Samargol, Lundeth, and Tashluta, as well as Hlath, Cimbar, Soorenar, and Laothkund as well. So does the orbiting enclave of Luneira which had a secret portal as well. A lot of these locations are linked via portals built by the red wizards following the time of troubles. However, other areas also transfer. The red wizards are convinced that their portals have something to do with the regions that transferred, and their portal networks make them better informed than any other group that transfers
F) Samargol, Lundeth, and Tashluta are overrun by <insert whoever we want, could be multiple groups in different areas, all from Abeir>. The population is able to extract the red wizards and some of the surrounding population via the portal network to the Balduran Bay Enclave. The portals chambers remain intact and hidden by magic, but the surrounding territory is lost.
G) Godly interactions happen in Soorenar as several Zulkirs appear wanting to enter the Tower Terrible (Velsharoon's mortal abode). These Zulkirs (Yaphyll and Mythrell'aa) appear to be acting on the behalf of gods of magic (Leira and Savras) as well as a sentient crystal acting on behalf of Auppenser. They go in and release Velsharoon from his phylactery where he's entrapped. The gods then go off to do some secret mystery stuff which we can use to allude to how some gods are later returned. However, before he leaves, Velsharoon rewards Mimuay (acting as his mortal avatar temporarily) by creating undead from every dead body (Abeiran and Torilian) for say a hundred miles. Savras, Leira, and Auppenser all also place magics upon these undead to make them appear as they did in life, able to think and act as they did in life, and giving them the ability to see threats to the peoples of Cimbar and Soorenar.
H) eventually these separate trade enclaves start calling themselves the United Tharchs of Toril. They setup a new form of red wizard ruled government involving a council of Zulkirs overseeing the United Tharchs as a whole and local Aulkirs representing the various schools of magic. In addition, Tharchions of each Tharch are given more power to help prevent issues caused solely by wizards acting only in wizardly interests (i.e. this is a requirement to satisfy the people who were pissed off by the civil war).
I) eventually as well, some of these Tharchs begin expanding into new areas as well. For instance, cultural divides split the Lopango and some travel down and form the Tharch of the Western Pridelands in Northwestern Katashaka, and eventually that Tharch builds another Tharch in Northeastern Katashaka called the Tharch of New Eltabbar. The Tharch of Luneira begins working with islanders near Osse and form the small Tharch of Oslander Islands. Cimbar and Soorenar and some red wizards from Laothkund expand into the Shaar to form the Tharch of Peleveran.
J) The sundering happens. All of this stuff pops back to Toril. The Tharch of Laothkund makes immediate alliance with the city of Escalant which is where rebellious red wizards have been holed up. This Tharch renames itself the Tharch of the Wizard's Reach when Zulkir Lallara Mediocros appears (she had been missing ever since the invasion of Thay a decade earlier). The current Aulkir of Abjuration in Laothkund is challenged to a spell duel by Lallara and loses and forsakes his seat. She then challenges the United Tharchs Zulkir of Abjuration to a spell duel, and he loses as well. Being abjurers are highly respectful of spell dueling (probably more so than any other school of magic), there is some enmity felt, but the transition is relatively bloodless.
K) this may or may not happen... thinking on it. Many High Imaskari as well as a renegade faction of Halruaans appear in the Tharch of Peleveran and want to join the United Tharchs of Toril.
If this sounds like a path of interest to you, let me know. I've got a lot more material written, and I've been having fun writing it for the sheer joy of it. However, its becoming a bit unwieldy. I'm most invested in Peleveran, and the Lopango and Katashaka regions, followed by Esh Alakar. So I've really written very little for Luneira, Oslander Islands, Balduran Bay, Laothkund, Cimbar and Soorenar (other than the undead), etc...
Oh, and I have virtually nothing written for the ruined trade enclaves in the Serpent Kingdoms. I figured I'd leave that vague to allow for some adventuring in that region near Chult.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Jul 2017 14:53:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 15:19:55
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| Oh, and in the above... just following the spellplague, there's this strange cooperative ritualistic dream magic that involves Torilian spellcasters. None of them truly understand it, but all can recall themselves participating in it. It happens on 2 occasions. The first involves the moon. The second involves the sun. After the sun ritual, it seems that any spellcaster involved finds themselves extremely "fertile" or "potent" for the next say decade, and magical talent is common in these children. With red wizards and their multiple concubines, this results in a large number of births of magically talented folk in the United Tharchs. As a side effect, it does somewhat solidify more "control" for the next few decades into male control, as males are able to proliferate and produce more children. However, it also means these children are raised more by their mothers, and in many instances this means that Mulan cultural beliefs become a bit diluted (especially in the Lopango jungle). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 17:01:55
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Oh, and regarding the above. This link has a very basic image of the layout of my Tharchs. The Tharch names are in red.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8YVJTU1FxbVhSWmc/view?usp=sharing
Note, I hadn't included the Tharch of Laothkund in this. I kept thinking when the return happened that the wizard's reach would need to be reached out to by the returning red wizards, but it didn't click until 2 or 3 days ago when I started comparing the 3e and 4e map and realized Laothkund could have transferred to Abeir (which is weird, as I had realized it was gone before). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 22:32:21
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Sleyvas-
I actually like the idea of dropping them off in Maztica. That makes some sense. Maztica was taken to Abeir and was returned. We have no idea what it looks like now, but it has likely changed greatly. Something has to be done with it.
I also had to laugh at the magical ritual to make the Mulan more fertile. I actually had something similar in mind, though a great deal darker. One of the things that I had in mind was linking up a heretical cult of Kossuth, who essentially saw the Mulan people as being descendants of deities. That is what gave them the right to rule other people and races--they were literally of divine blood. "Children of the Old Gods." To that end they were obsessed with Mulan bloodlines, and they spent decades capturing or persuading Mulans who had descended from various Mulan incarnations. Basically, they were running a magical eugenics project, attempting to keep the Mulan bloodlines pure, and filling them with as many incarnation descendants as possible.
Anyway, basically with the aid of renegade Red Wizards this cult captures some powerful descendants of incarnations. A Red Wizard, skilled in the art of Transmutation, transforms the females into hideous beings capable of giving birth to entire litters of Mulan. The transmutation rituals also change the embryos that grow in these creatures, allowing certain features to "breed true." As a result, they look different from the Mulan back home and are basically a whole new race of humans (not merely an ethnic group). These "true Mulan" that breed with non-Mulan always produces sterile off-spring that often have other side effects (horrible mutations or just general mental instability).
Anyway, I went down this path for similar reasons as you did. I needed to boost the Mulan population, but I also believe what makes the Mulan unique is their belief in their own races supremacy. That was one of the things that irked me with how they handled the enclaves in 4th Edition. They basically opened up becoming a Red Wizard to non-Mulan. However, canonically the Mulan are extremely racist--even with Mulhorandi--who are generally seen as the "good" Mulan (who just happened to keep non-Mulan slaves).
The other thing that made Mulan unique was their religious nature, and their connection/interaction with the various incarnations of the Mulan deities.
Anyway, what do you think happened to Maztica in Abeir if the Thayan Mulans got ported over in large enough numbers? Do you think they managed to carve out an empire there... an empire that has returned to Toril--basically becoming a magical empire across the sea? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 23:55:39
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| Mind, in Abeir there are dragons more powerful than the ones from Toril (see Gauwervyndhal for an example), as well as primordials (like Karshimis). I really doubt the Thayans were free to create an empire in Maztica (or any Abeiran land), unless they made an alliance of sorts with the dragon overlords of Abeir. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Mind, in Abeir there are dragons more powerful than the ones from Toril (see Gauwervyndhal for an example), as well as primordials (like Karshimis). I really doubt the Thayans were free to create an empire in Maztica (or any Abeiran land), unless they made an alliance of sorts with the dragon overlords of Abeir.
But we do not know where Maztica ended up on Abeir, do we? For all we know it ended up somewhere in the remote ocean, a continent all of its own.
As for dragons and primordials, give them a couple of powerful magical artifacts and a few archwizards who know how to work together. I am sure they can manage so long as they are not swarmed. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 04:50:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Mind, in Abeir there are dragons more powerful than the ones from Toril (see Gauwervyndhal for an example), as well as primordials (like Karshimis). I really doubt the Thayans were free to create an empire in Maztica (or any Abeiran land), unless they made an alliance of sorts with the dragon overlords of Abeir.
Who says the dragon overlords even knew Maztica was there. Hell the people of Faerun didn't for centuries. If it was far enough away from the other continents, they may have never travelled out to find it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 05:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Sleyvas-
I actually like the idea of dropping them off in Maztica. That makes some sense. Maztica was taken to Abeir and was returned. We have no idea what it looks like now, but it has likely changed greatly. Something has to be done with it.
I also had to laugh at the magical ritual to make the Mulan more fertile. I actually had something similar in mind, though a great deal darker. One of the things that I had in mind was linking up a heretical cult of Kossuth, who essentially saw the Mulan people as being descendants of deities. That is what gave them the right to rule other people and races--they were literally of divine blood. "Children of the Old Gods." To that end they were obsessed with Mulan bloodlines, and they spent decades capturing or persuading Mulans who had descended from various Mulan incarnations. Basically, they were running a magical eugenics project, attempting to keep the Mulan bloodlines pure, and filling them with as many incarnation descendants as possible.
Anyway, basically with the aid of renegade Red Wizards this cult captures some powerful descendants of incarnations. A Red Wizard, skilled in the art of Transmutation, transforms the females into hideous beings capable of giving birth to entire litters of Mulan. The transmutation rituals also change the embryos that grow in these creatures, allowing certain features to "breed true." As a result, they look different from the Mulan back home and are basically a whole new race of humans (not merely an ethnic group). These "true Mulan" that breed with non-Mulan always produces sterile off-spring that often have other side effects (horrible mutations or just general mental instability).
Anyway, I went down this path for similar reasons as you did. I needed to boost the Mulan population, but I also believe what makes the Mulan unique is their belief in their own races supremacy. That was one of the things that irked me with how they handled the enclaves in 4th Edition. They basically opened up becoming a Red Wizard to non-Mulan. However, canonically the Mulan are extremely racist--even with Mulhorandi--who are generally seen as the "good" Mulan (who just happened to keep non-Mulan slaves).
The other thing that made Mulan unique was their religious nature, and their connection/interaction with the various incarnations of the Mulan deities.
Anyway, what do you think happened to Maztica in Abeir if the Thayan Mulans got ported over in large enough numbers? Do you think they managed to carve out an empire there... an empire that has returned to Toril--basically becoming a magical empire across the sea?
Yeah, the breeding thing though also means all cultures have an increase in spellcasters, and that's partly because I have my storyline that basically all the gods of magic that served Mystra (minus Azuth) were sent to Abeir, and even some gods that served other deities but who COULD serve Mystra in some magical context. So basically Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Deneir, maybe Finder... maybe the red knight (I'm playing a game of was it her or was it this Metahel goddess Sifya, the golden haired war mother, Lady of Skill in Battle). So, while magic was messed up in Toril, it wasn't as bad in Abeir, and Mystra was there healing.
And before someone says gods can't be in Abeir... well then why can primordials have come to Toril???? The rules changed after the spellplague.
Anyway, you asked what happened during the spellplague years. Did they form an empire. Yes, but not like where they control everything. They're trying to hold themselves together and slowly expand. They're trying to not lose their identity as they form their own small societies in disparate parts of the world that are far apart. Picture it something like the British Empire and in each of these areas they're having to deal with the native populations to get what they want. They are expanding and they are becoming powerful. In some places they're even improving the world around them (for instance, the formerly hunter/gatherer animal-humanoid tribes of Katashaka are becoming more civilized), but that doesn't make them good either.... However, some of the Tharchs aren't holding on that well. The Lopangans are becoming more focused on the gods and not worried about racial purity. The people of Esh Alakar are becoming intrigued with technology and losing their focus on expanding their empire (a growing researcher faction is forming there).
So, its not "hey, the red wizards are back and they're the new threat". Its more of "hey, lets go check out Katashaka"... "There's red wizards there that you can trade with or go to for aid if you're desperate, but be careful, you can't trust them... you can usually get a good deal in their cities though, better than you would those bloodthirsty cat people or those crazed bat folk". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Jul 2017 05:15:32 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 14:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Who says the dragon overlords even knew Maztica was there. Hell the people of Faerun didn't for centuries. If it was far enough away from the other continents, they may have never travelled out to find it.
Maztica in Toril was an unknown place to others because it has no historical importance to Faerunians or Kara-Turans, and barely had anything that made it shine on its own. It was a backwater place of uncivilized people (compared to other civilizations in Toril, I mean). That's why nobody cried when Maztica went to Abeir: they weren't losing anything. Well, Maybe the Amnians cried... but that's just one country.
Laerakond (the continent whose spot potentially Maztica filled up while on Abeir) on the other hand, has the first draconic empire of Abeir (Melabrauth), the most important draconic empire at the moment the Spellplague happened (Skelkor), the most important place for the cultists of the primordials worldwide in Abeir (Fimbrul), the "capital" of sorts of the Eminence of Araunt (Norglast), and the most important trade hub of all Abeir (the Windrise Ports and the Dusk Ports).
While Maztica has nothing in Toril, the place it was replacing had all the spotlight of Abeir. I really doubt the dragons would ignore the place that replaced the shining beacon of civilization of their world (and that happen to be free of important powers... like, yeah, a landless dragon cannot oppose Gauwer or Melautaur to make its own kingdom in Laerakond... but hey, there is no one of importance in this new chunk of earth—I can picture a powerful draconic empire in current Maztica right now).
The only way for dragons not having knowing (in a whole century) about Maztica is to say that Maztica did not occupied Laerakond's spot on Abeir. And that is highly unlikely.
And even so, there is the fact that the Spellplague has made all the more shiny. Hardly doubt Maztica went to Abeir quietly. The lands of Abeir that came to Toril, did so in a catastrophically way (see Akanûl), and all of the world noticed. Is obvious the lands of Toril that went to Abeir did so in a similar way there, as well. I mean, I can ignore a small city here and there (Halrua, Mezro), but a whole continent? Hardly. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 15:23:28 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 14:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the breeding thing though also means all cultures have an increase in spellcasters, and that's partly because I have my storyline that basically all the gods of magic that served Mystra (minus Azuth) were sent to Abeir, and even some gods that served other deities but who COULD serve Mystra in some magical context. So basically Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Deneir, maybe Finder... maybe the red knight (I'm playing a game of was it her or was it this Metahel goddess Sifya, the golden haired war mother, Lady of Skill in Battle). So, while magic was messed up in Toril, it wasn't as bad in Abeir, and Mystra was there healing.
And before someone says gods can't be in Abeir... well then why can primordials have come to Toril???? The rules changed after the spellplague.
Yeah, the rules may have changed... but, primordials abide themselves by different rules. They do not need faith to be powerful. The gods need faith to even be alive, even if powerless.
There are no cults to gods in Abeir. I can picture those gods really powerless. Like, to the level of Enlil in Erin's novels. So, really weak deities that will not change that world in any meaningful way unless they can raise whole established religions. Difficult task to do in less than a century.
As for the Red Knight, she was active in the post-Spellplague Toril (was an exarch of Tempus). I guess Deneir was in the remains of the Weave, and Mystra was inside a bear (there is a novel about it). So I doubt they went to Abeir. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 15:03:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 16:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the breeding thing though also means all cultures have an increase in spellcasters, and that's partly because I have my storyline that basically all the gods of magic that served Mystra (minus Azuth) were sent to Abeir, and even some gods that served other deities but who COULD serve Mystra in some magical context. So basically Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Deneir, maybe Finder... maybe the red knight (I'm playing a game of was it her or was it this Metahel goddess Sifya, the golden haired war mother, Lady of Skill in Battle). So, while magic was messed up in Toril, it wasn't as bad in Abeir, and Mystra was there healing.
And before someone says gods can't be in Abeir... well then why can primordials have come to Toril???? The rules changed after the spellplague.
Yeah, the rules may have changed... but, primordials abide themselves by different rules. They do not need faith to be powerful. The gods need faith to even be alive, even if powerless.
There are no cults to gods in Abeir. I can picture those gods really powerless. Like, to the level of Enlil in Erin's novels. So, really weak deities that will not change that world in any meaningful way unless they can raise whole established religions. Difficult task to do in less than a century.
As for the Red Knight, she was active in the post-Spellplague Toril (was an exarch of Tempus). I guess Deneir was in the remains of the Weave, and Mystra was inside a bear (there is a novel about it). So I doubt they went to Abeir.
Gods can exist in more than one place at a time. Keep that in mind. Also bear in mind that what sages "think" isn't always correct. That's a basic premise we all have to accept. They don't have PROOF of what EXACTLY happened to say Deneir. They have their interpretation of what they have seen (most likely in dreams). On the red knight, yes, I know she's in Toril. This is why with the Metahel, I've essentially recreated an altered version of the Norse Mythos, and included a god named Sifya. I'm then leaving it REAL vague... Is Sifya the same as the red knight? Are they separate entities and one was answering the prayers of the other while in Abeir to get more power? What happens when they return to Toril? We don't know the exact mechanics of how "gods" work, and it should be left a mystery until we absolutely NEED to know.
For the gods that were say in the Maztican Pantheon... all of their followers transferred to Abeir. They wouldn't be weakened. Same with the gods of the people of Anchorome and Katashaka. Their people went there. Theoretically, same can be said of the Mulhorandi and Untherites that transferred.
So, the problem becomes if I were to say have dweomerheart transfer/reanchor itself to Abeir. However, remember, back in 3rd edition, Mystra ORDERED her chosen to leave the red wizards alone. By what I'm proposing, the red wizards occupied "nooks" in these other cultures edges in order to survive and even multiply enormously. This means that while for the first generation, those gods of magic may have been suffering, they would have grown more strong over the past century. When they return to Toril, it won't necessarily be as all powerful gods, but they will not be starved.... and those gods of magic will protect Mystra as she further heals. I can see Azuth returning to the ranks to help protect her. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 16:57:20
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The throw-away line about Murghôm (and Semphar) having 'Dragon Princes' could easily be interpreted to mean Dragonborn, or even half-dragons (thats what I was picturing in my head, at least for one of those countries - the half-human descendants of Gaumahavi, the Purple Dragon. I was also picturing a metallic dragon vs chromatic thing going on there between the two (which would explain why two countries with such extremely powerful rulers haven't interacted with the rest of the world, AT ALL). Also, they have a history of hating each other, and at the end of 3e, Semphar belonged to Shou-Lung, not Mulhorand (it switched hands because of the Tuigan War).
Giving the Shou's predilection to honoring 'goodly' (Celestial) dragons, and their pre-Spellplague ownership of Semphar, I would peg that one as the realm of the metallic dragons... but it could really go either way.
Speaking of which, we've never really seen how Shou respond to Dragonborn or even half-dragons - they should be viewed with awe and reverence, given the culture.
BTW, how did this thread start talking about Murghôm? Do they all start blending together after awhile?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 16:58:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 18:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Who says the dragon overlords even knew Maztica was there. Hell the people of Faerun didn't for centuries. If it was far enough away from the other continents, they may have never travelled out to find it.
Maztica in Toril was an unknown place to others because it has no historical importance to Faerunians or Kara-Turans, and barely had anything that made it shine on its own. It was a backwater place of uncivilized people (compared to other civilizations in Toril, I mean). That's why nobody cried when Maztica went to Abeir: they weren't losing anything. Well, Maybe the Amnians cried... but that's just one country.
Laerakond (the continent whose spot potentially Maztica filled up while on Abeir) on the other hand, has the first draconic empire of Abeir (Melabrauth), the most important draconic empire at the moment the Spellplague happened (Skelkor), the most important place for the cultists of the primordials worldwide in Abeir (Fimbrul), the "capital" of sorts of the Eminence of Araunt (Norglast), and the most important trade hub of all Abeir (the Windrise Ports and the Dusk Ports).
While Maztica has nothing in Toril, the place it was replacing had all the spotlight of Abeir. I really doubt the dragons would ignore the place that replaced the shining beacon of civilization of their world (and that happen to be free of important powers... like, yeah, a landless dragon cannot oppose Gauwer or Melautaur to make its own kingdom in Laerakond... but hey, there is no one of importance in this new chunk of earth—I can picture a powerful draconic empire in current Maztica right now).
The only way for dragons not having knowing (in a whole century) about Maztica is to say that Maztica did not occupied Laerakond's spot on Abeir. And that is highly unlikely.
And even so, there is the fact that the Spellplague has made all the more shiny. Hardly doubt Maztica went to Abeir quietly. The lands of Abeir that came to Toril, did so in a catastrophically way (see Akanûl), and all of the world noticed. Is obvious the lands of Toril that went to Abeir did so in a similar way there, as well. I mean, I can ignore a small city here and there (Halrua, Mezro), but a whole continent? Hardly.
Good point. That being said, let's play devil's advocate for a second. It may help us, or it may lead us elsewhere.
How much transferred to Abeir versus how much transferred to Toril. I'm not seeing those transfers as necessarily equal. With the 4e FRCG, we only hear about Laerakond and not any surrounding territories (and the Lopango peninsula and the entire continent of Anchorome would have been attached if it were similar... and Katashaka is VERY close to where Maztica was, so that also raises eyebrows).
So, was Laerakond isolated or were there other "continents"/"islands" relatively nearboy? Let's go with the idea that there were other locations relatively close by. All of a sudden we have effectively 3 continents dropped "on top of" those areas probably similar to what occurred in Unther/Chessenta/Chondath. Holy cow... I just realized that on the other side of all this, in Abeir, hell there may have been a LOT more death than there was on Toril. In fact, maybe a lot of the cultures that would have come to investigate, maybe they were outright fricking killed from having a couple continents drop on them. The resulting tidal waves could have devastated the coastlines of even continents far away. Heck, the dragon lords may just be tasked with maintaining their existing infrastructure, so the idea of them going out to explore some huge arsed area of continents full of humanoids with magic may just not be in the cards. If they did send out a few exploratory missions and those ended up dead, they may have just dropped the idea and just focused on rebuilding. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 18:27:37
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| Wow, in thinking about the above, I think I finally came up with a damn good reason for something that was bugging me. What was that? Why did Talos disappear? Well.... Talos likes destruction. If dropping 3 continents from Toril onto much of Abeir's lands and creating tidal waves that devastate other continents isn't a damn good reason for the god of destruction to want to go there at that moment, I don't know what is.... He must have loved it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 20:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The throw-away line about Murghôm (and Semphar) having 'Dragon Princes' could easily be interpreted to mean Dragonborn, or even half-dragons
Well, while Semphar wasn't really touched in 4e lore, they developed (at least to some level) Murghôm, in the Brotherhood of the Griffon three first novels.
I've compiled info of the known dragon princes of Murghôm on the wiki.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Speaking of which, we've never really seen how Shou respond to Dragonborn or even half-dragons - they should be viewed with awe and reverence, given the culture.
BTW, how did this thread start talking about Murghôm? Do they all start blending together after awhile?
Sadly, that was not regarded in 4e. We know some Abeiran parts appeared in Kara-Tur, but that it is all we know.
As for Murghôm, it appeared in the topic because Aldrick wanted to use it, xD
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, was Laerakond isolated or were there other "continents"/"islands" relatively nearboy?
We know Shyr was to the east of Laerakond, and we know that Tymanchebar and Akanûl were rivals (as Tymanther and Akanûl's current age enmity comes from that older rivalry), so that means that Shyr must have been close to Laerakond for that rivalry to exist.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Holy cow... I just realized that on the other side of all this, in Abeir, hell there may have been a LOT more death than there was on Toril.
I remember reading in some part that the Weave acted as some form of armor to protect Toril from the damage... (it was in the Herald novel). Well, Abeir doesn't have a Weave... (according to Ed there is something that a Torilian will mistake for a "weave", but technically isn't the Weave, as it not connected to Mystra—tough Mystra knows about it and can control it to some degree).
So, yes. Abeir suffered a lot worst than Toril, indeed...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
so the idea of them going out to explore some huge arsed area of continents full of humanoids with magic may just not be in the cards.
Maybe not in the first decades. But I can see explorers out to investigate the continent after the things became calmer. In Toril took ten years for that (the Wailing Years), so, it maybe took the same amount of time for Abeir. Or a little bit more... so, after 1400 DR I can see a few dragons exploring Maztica, and even one or two making their kingdoms there. Isn't something illogical.
And there is also the fact of what Ed said. The "Weave" of Abeir is different from that of Toril. In the Devil You Know, was literally non-existent for Torilians. I can see the Red Wizards as useless as Farideh and friends in TDYK those first years, trying to adapt to this more difficult to use magical rules (magic works easier for spontaneous casters —like dragons or sorcerers— than for mages or warlocks). The dragons and their servants, on the other hand, are experts in the use of magic without a Weave...
In this scenario, the Red Wizards are the loser side, in fact. Dragons can easily decimate them, as they have either no magic, and no knowledge of this new world to use as a tactical advantage. Is more likely that the Red Wizards survived because they struck some bargain with a powerful dragon (protection in exchange for something unique the Red Wizards can provide to the dragon) than by the force of arms.
Now that we talk about this, I remember why I came to Candlekeep. Well, I was a casual reader before, but I became a regular user because I was helping Seethyr with a few ideas of how could have Maztica evolved while in Abeir.
If you like, I can share those ideas with you. There are a few ideas that I don't want to fade into nothingness. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 21:27:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
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Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 21:29:14
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My assumption has always been that Abeir must use 'Raw' magic, which is actually more powerful, but much more difficult to use and harness (it harkens back to primorduial times, when just about everyone was some sort of 'Celestial Being', even the Creator Races. Their being able to use it was just hard-wired into what they were.
Over the years, 'mortals' have become less and less connected with the metaphysical, and thus, less able to manipulate Raw Magic. In that same interim, The Weave has been slowly evolving and growing more complex, taking on more and more of the roles other types of magic and/or 'Powers' (gods) used to handle directly. I suppose you could say that Torillians have become 'spoiled' through this ease-of-use.* A Torillian stuck on Abeir would have to try and access The Weave, which was 'out of phase' with the world they were in, or they would have to learn new ways of doing magic.**
I also assume most other worlds have some sort of 'magical web' around them, either held by a singular deity of magic (as it is in Realmspace), or by a group of them. I'd go out on a limb and say Toril's is probably one of the most powerful and intricate, with others being similar in nature, but not as all-encompassing. Which is why when Faerûnians travel to other worlds, they can still 'do magic', although it probably takes a few days for them to acclimate themselves to new way of doing things. Even Elminster would require a few hours.
*This goes back to my theory that psionic talent is synergistic with magical ability - Elminster being the single greatest example of that (he can literally 'see' magic all around him, and manipulate it in its raw form). Beings of godly power (just about anything above the 'mortal' tier) nearly all have some degree of psionics, which is why magic comes naturally to them. I would imagine this should hold true for dragons (Elves also have a very evolved sense of 'empathy'), but perhaps the terrestrial ones have lost most of their ability, like a vestigial appendage they no longer bother to use (I can definitely see most dragons communicating psionically - after all, its not like they're going to have human-like vocal chords).
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
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Originally posted by sleyvas
Holy cow... I just realized that on the other side of all this, in Abeir, hell there may have been a LOT more death than there was on Toril.
I remember reading in some part that the Weave acted as some form of armor to protect Toril from the damage... (it was in the Herald novel). Well, Abeir doesn't have a Weave... (according to Ed there is something that a Torilian will mistake for a "weave", but technically isn't the Weave, as it not connected to Mystra—tough Mystra knows about it and can control it to some degree).
So, yes. Abeir suffered a lot worst than Toril, indeed...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
so the idea of them going out to explore some huge arsed area of continents full of humanoids with magic may just not be in the cards.
Maybe not in the first decades. But I can see explorers out to investigate the continent after the things became calmer. In Toril took ten years for that (the Wailing Years), so, it maybe took the same amount of time for Abeir. Or a little bit more... so, after 1400 DR I can see a few dragons exploring Maztica, and even one or two making their kingdoms there. Isn't something illogical.
And there is also the fact of what Ed said. The "Weave" of Abeir is different from that of Toril. In the Devil You Know, was literally non-existent for Torilians. I can see the Red Wizards as useless as Farideh and friends in TDYK those first years, trying to adapt to this more difficult to use magical rules (magic works easier for spontaneous casters —like dragons or sorcerers— than for mages or warlocks). The dragons and their servants, on the other hand, are experts in the use of magic without a Weave...
In this scenario, the Red Wizards are the loser side, in fact. Dragons can easily decimate them, as they have either no magic, and no knowledge of this new world to use as a tactical advantage. Is more likely that the Red Wizards survived because they struck some bargain with a powerful dragon (protection in exchange for something unique the Red Wizards can provide to the dragon) that by the force of arms.
Now that we talk about this, I remember why I came to Candlekeep. Well, I was a casual reader before, but I became a regular user because I was helping Seethyr with a few ideas of who could have Maztica evolved while in Abeir.
If you like, I can share those ideas with you. There are a few ideas that I don't want to fade into nothingness.
I probably quoted more than I should have (I wanted to address several things, but for now I'll just go with the top-most one).
I really LIKE the idea the Weave 'mitigated' the damages. It reminds me of the Doctor Who episode where he first meets Riversong (although its not the first time she meets him... typical DW). When the Library realized people were all going to die, it saved them by storing their 'data' in transport (like the teleporters in Star trek). they became part of the library. The Doctor figured that out, and how to access and bring them back. So I picture the weave doing at least some of that - maybe everything didn't die, or wind up on one world or another - maybe their 'data' (soul?) got stored-away, until such a time it could bring them back. The same may have happened for physical locations (it reduces a place to pure energy and stores it, and then provides a 'fake' ruin in its place).
We know The Weave can (and has) acted as a storage-area for souls/personas before - the whole thing with 'Weave Ghosts'. In fact, maybe some of these stored people were active as Weave ghosts during the lost century.
Heck, its really no different than 'Blueflame' thingies. In the case of those, specific personas were linked to specific items, but in reality, everyone was 'stored' in the same place - The Weave itself. The items were more like a 'key' to gain access t a particular stored person, place, or thing.
**As I just edited what I wrote, I realized that most of the time there is a Weave, and although Abeirans can't really access it (at least not easily), its still there. Under normal circumstances, that means a Torillian finding themselves accidentally on Abeir 'may' have slightly easier time accessing it than someone who has never had any experience with it. Lets just say you'd have to make SR on Wisdom, and if you make it you can access The Weave, but treat all spells as THREE levels higher. If you FAIL the roll, you can barely access it and treat all spells FIVE levels higher (so a 4th level spell would count as a Ninth level spell, and if you can't cast ninth level spells, well then, your poop out of luck). And if you get a critical failure ('1'), you can't access it at all - you'd have to completely learn magic again from scratch.
And thats just under NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. During the Spellplague, or at any time when The Weave isn't operating correctly (ToT, Karsus' Folly, etc), you'd have no chance of access. So when all those people first got shifted over into Abeir, they would not have been able to use any magic. At least, not at first (and even then, they chances were slim). I can definitely see a lot of panicky Mages making 'pacts' with whatever they could so they could get some semblance of their magic back. On the flipside, some of the people who had some small talent with magic in Abeir may have suddenly found themselves with 'godlike powers' (to their way of thinking) on Toril. Not that there would be too many of those, and they'd still have to learn new spells, but still, magic would suddenly be 'all around them', all the time. It would be like a Defiler from Athas suddenly appearing in The Realms - it would be a 'feast' to them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 21:53:17 |
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Need interesting way to bring back someone
