| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 14:58:41
I know a lot of you know this already, but in my United Tharchs of Toril, I'm bringing back the Zulkirs (or former Zulkirs or other important folk from Thay). Some are even coming back in lesser tiers than Zulkirs (a position within a school of magic I'm calling an Aulkir that is like a Zulkir in a Tharch). Anyway, I like to find an interesting way to do it. However, I'm starting to get a little punchy for ideas, and I just hate using the same thing over and over. So, there's one left that I just realized last night would be great in the role instead of me making up someone else on the fly. Just to layout my current roster of the existing ones and what I'm doing with them to get them back, here goes.
Just to note as well, I've added some additional "Thulkir"/"Khazir" positions for spellcasters (think lesser version of Zulkir/Aulkir) following certain types of paths of arcane magic for which is less stringently defined how you enter said school. Yeah, I know sounds a bit cryptic, so just to clear that up, they are the Academy of Arcane Craftmanship, Sorcerer's Society, Fellowship of Battlemages, and Guild of Arcane Spymasters
Anyway, on to the list of who I'm bringing back and how, and hopefully someone can come up with something nice for Jorgmacdon Odesseiron, binder of Eltab and first Zulkir of Conjuration under Thayd, before the Zulkirate was formed.
Lallara Mediocros (Zulkir of Abjuration) - She was alive in 1478 when last we saw her in the novels in the area with Szass Tam that he had created for working the dread ring ritual. Also, Zulkir Lauzoril had been simply told to jump off a cliff, which he could easily survive. So, the two of them join forces and work together to break through Tam's defenses and alter his memories (using special spells that even work on undead) so that he believed that he had killed them both. When Tam leaves the special extradimensional space, Lallara and Lauzoril find themselves trapped and time begins to pass weirdly. The sundering 2.0 actually "pops" them out of this demiplane.
Jorgmacdon Odesseiron (Zulkir of Conjuration) - Note, he wasn't part of the Zulkirate. He was a Zulkir in that he was a lieutenant of Thayd's. I'm picturing him as Mulan, but having delved into many mysteries of ancient Narfell, Raumathar, and Imaskar. Also thinking to have him having an enslaved lesser demon lord/lady or former demon lord/lady. What is a good way to bring him back while he is in Abeir?
Yaphyll Sirtula (Zulkir of Divination) - Tam made her split herself in two and send a portion of herself into the future for a divination (from the novel Undead). Yaphyll "hit" the spellplague, which enabled her to free herself in the past from Tam. Its the future self which survived and transferred to Abeir.
Lauzoril Tavai (Zulkir of Enchantment) - There are actually 2 different Lauzorils. The first was a clone on Abeir in the city of Soorenar. His daughter, Mimuay, became a host for the avatar of Velsharoon. She touched the clone and Lauzoril awoke (note I'm also having her touch a clone of Dmitra Flass in Cimbar, though this clone does not have the memories of herself as a Zulkir, and she became an Aulkir of Illusion in the Tharch of Peleveran) .
Mythrell'aa (Zulkir of Illusion) - She faked her death during the Thayan civil war when Yaphyll told her that she would be seen to be dead at the hands of Szass Tam. She also used a special ritual to make everyone think her name was Mythrellan to make finding her harder. She then moved to a Netherese Enclave in orbit named Doubloon (renamed by her to Luneira).
Mimuay (Zulkir of Necromancy) - This is Lauzoril's daughter all grown up. I've written up a decent portion of her backstory advancing after the events of the novel, the Simbul's Gift, that introduced her. She is becoming instrumental in some of the things I'm doing, though I hadn't really planned for that. She's not so much coming back from the dead so much as I'm advancing her story.
Talaskos Murthrond (Zulkir of Transmutation) - This guys is from Dragon 427, the article on Worldfire. There's little lore, but the Hooded One said he was a Transmuter when asked. Here's what little we know.
Talaskos Murthrond is a handsome, purring-voiced former Zulkir of Thay who long ago foresaw Szass Tam’s rise, faked his own demise, and departed his homeland for a skulking existence spent hiding in remote places of Faerûn amid magical mists.
Anyway, longwinded I know, but what's an interesting way to bring back Jorgmacdon Odesseiron? I'm wondering if it might not involve Thayd somehow.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 22:05:10
But seriously, it would be fairly easy to say Khorvaire was on/in Abeir (along with the rest of Eberron) - its not such a stretch. Both are 'closed' worlds.
That would allow us to steal Khorvaire, Xendrik, and Aerenal, and leave Sarlona and Argonnessen (which are both perfect fits, come to think of it - the 'Dreaming Dark' in Eb could just be them trying to return to Toril). We got weirdies who connect to 'another world' through psionics, and a whole continent of dragony goodness - sounds like a win-win. Lets dismember Eberron in 5e!!! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 21:55:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That COULD be interesting. However, the main question becomes, if they're so advanced, why haven't we seen them showing up in the other regions? Having extremely advanced technology GENERALLY would imply that they'd be willing to explore, etc... There are probably ways we could get around this fact, but then if we work into those ways, do we suddenly remove the reason for having this magi-tech community?
With that thought in mind though, let's play through some ideas.
First off, I'd say whatever IS there shouldn't be human, as that opens up the majority of our options.
What if the people there breathe a special mixture of air, and its only because of creature or plant X that's there that they survive. Also, other people that visit there don't get enough oxygen without some kind of magical aid to stop the need to breathe. Also, maybe the air is slightly acidic or something, but whatever creature it is maybe either absorbs this acid or coats itself in some kind of slimecoat that prevents it bothering them. Benefits... magi-tech... downside... sounds like a creepy weird culture and maybe not fun
What if the people there are highly psionic and they perform their discovery of other regions by "riding" the minds of other individuals. Maybe they are somehow able to work as a variant of warlock patron (similar to vestiges). Could be interesting, but needs work.
Any other ideas?
Those are some pretty weird ideas. Kewl, but I don't know how much usage they'd be in an RPG setting (because if no-one can go there, thats its not much use, right?) Better for a novel, maybe, than a game-setting.
I was thinking keeping it simple. All Eberonese magic is based on the Dragonmarks, and what most people don't realize (except the few who have tried to explore) is that its a 'field effect' - an incredibly large one. The Dragonmarks are powered by the Dragonshards, which only lie on Khorvaire (in our version). That part's actually Eberron canon (except they say the Dragonshards are everywhere, just about).
So if you are flying in one of those advanced flying ships, and you leave the region where the 'Dragonshard radiation' is, the ship would loose power... which would be a VERY bad thing. Over time, they may have developed ships similar to Spelljammers (the water-capable kind), so that when the power started to run-out, they could switch to sail and keep going. that means if they sailed into Waterdeep harbor, no-one would be any the wiser. they'd probably also want to get their hands on Spelljamming helms, or maybe steal the Halruaan tech, so they could fly their ships the whole way.
It would also mean their mages would be greatly depowered. So they wouldn't be 'startin' sumthin' with the Realmsfolk because they wouldn't have their full power, and by the same token, the Faerûnians wouldn't be starting stuff on their home-turf because they have home-field advantage there. Nice and simple, i think, and keeps to the canon of both.
I already have Greyhawk and Mystarran ships docking at my version of Waterdeep; whats a few Eberronese ships as well? 
And since I've already swapped Katashaka for Xendrik, its all a nice, tidy fit. You guys are gonna hate me for this, but MY version of the Realms now combines nearly ALL of WotC's official settings (some of them are in Abeir). If they followed suit, they'd have an awful lot of material to draw from. Of course, all the setting-specific fans would fly into a rage, but that's kinda what I do best - make folks tear their hair out. 
Instead of 'Realmspace', it could just be D&Dspace.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 21:27:47
THIS is the thread we were talking about Osse, but they've all become somewhat cross-indexed lately. Its like one, giant 'mega-conversation'. LOL
So I was toying with Eberron in place of Osse yesterday (even did a fast & dirty mock-up to see what that would look like), and its a good fit, espeically if we flip it. So I decided to take another look at the IK/WM setting (which I think Eberron is a 'knock off' of), and I had forgotten they added a lot more to it since I played WM - they added Hordes, with new factions... and lots more land. Now, instead of just seeing a tiny corner of the continent, we can see the whole continent....
And low & behold, it is also a great fit! In fact, it works even better upside-down (just like Eberron... how coincidental...) In fact, when I went looking for a map of it, I found that people had already been comparing it to Khorvaire (so not even just the tropes, cultures, and ideas, but the landmass itself is now VERY similar). Anyhow, that my opinion on what might be a great fit for that landmass we've been calling Osse. Not that we could even make that psuedo-canonical (fanon, CandleKanon, etc), because it belongs to someone other than WotC.
And now I have this kewl picture in my head of Elminster 'dressing down' a Gunmage (he had a few choice words about Vangerdehast who made a wand that looked "like a gunne in the Lantanese fashion").  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 13:05:35
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But Eberron is more like low-magic. Usually, only player characters are the ones casting high powered spells (there is only one or two persons in all of Eberron capable of using resurrection spells, beyond player characters, for instance). On the other hand, magic items are more widespread on Eberron (just like on Abeir), as well as aimed to more mundane and practical applications. I guess that kind of applications will be more common on Abeir.
On the other hand, is very likely Abeir will have more psionic and primal magic than Toril, as well.
Yeah, one of the things I picture upon Halruaa's return is it being much more like Eberron. They've likely had the time to really hone up on their own personal territory and make small improvements. Meanwhile, where they were sparsely populated before, if they truly transferred somewhere with little outside threat, they may have moved to fill up a lot of the space of Halruaa. Like Eberron, I can picture some kind of mass transit system using things like magnetism magics that are triggered off and on by the activation of nearby devices of a similar nature. I can see their airships being even more developed so that they aren't just basically advanced blimps with magic (OR they have a lot more of those old airships with a handful of some new advanced kind).
SIDEBAR: That is one vastly different thing I'm picturing between Halruaa and my United Tharchs. Most of these new Tharchs, while much more widespread and holding a lot more land, will still be at the level of nice houses only for the red wizards themselves or say some academy that they build for training wizards, and the rest of the folk living in whatever ramshackle hut they can develop from the materials at hand. This would be because they've been basically expanding into a given area and then the next generation pushes the envelope out further. I'm picturing in the Lopango jungles coastal edges just before the spellplague that they had developed little more than the odd collection of bamboo or palm tree huts in New Kensten and Mictalarra with wooden palisades and simple ports. Then just as they're getting permanent settlements with say clay-fired brick or mud and rock, they expand to build the settlement of Zanzilaha as another major settlements and five or six small villages as part of the next generation. Then the following generation and the current one start having disagreements over racial purity, and expansion within the Lopango drops off and we have a movement of say 1/3 of the new generation down into Katashaka living out of simple huts again. The big differences would be the places where they took over someone else's somewhat developed residences (so like Esh Alakar in Anchorome and Peleveria/Hard Castle/Torsch in the Shaar) or areas like Balduran Bay where they've had a century and then some to develop and a huge influx of workers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 00:23:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, I was just now thinking, if Osse has really been in Abeir this whole time (which makes perfect sense, since no one's ever heard of it {in-setting}, we know nothing about it, and we've only met one person from it), then what is that big landmass to the SE of Kara-Tur? No-one at WotC has ever officially said that IS Osse - thats just a fan theory we've all agreed upon.
And so I was looking at it, thinking about what could be there. My first thought was, "lets do something different". Now, we've always pictured those non-Faerûnian landmasses as 'primitive' (how very 'great white hunter' of us), but what if at least one of them was technologically superior to The Realms? So then I thought, The Iron kingdoms (its magipunk), but that setting is only the west coast of a larger landmass. So my next thought was, what can i stick on the right side of it? In one map i did I had t hanging off the east end of the Greyhawk maps, but that's not the flavor I want. I want more magi/steampunk. So then I thought, Eberron! Its actually kind of related to IK/Warmachine (it seems to have been based off of the same predecessor {Lock & Load} as that setting... in MANY ways). So I went to look at the map of Eberron to see if I could slice-off the right side of something to match-up to IK, annnnddd.... Khorvaire is actually a pretty damn good fit for Osse, as-is! 
EDIT: Even better flipped upside down (I can even get the equator to line-up perfectly), because the terrain makes more sense. Visually, it looks better right-side up, but then we have weirdness with the climate. I just did a quick thing to see how it would look - its even sized perfectly. Aerenal would be better left right-side up, but then its different in its relationship to Khorvaire (and I should care about that why?)
Anyway, I find it somewhat redundant with what we already have in FR, and in my own games I've already stolen all the best parts and pasted them into my Misbegotten Realms. Most of the stuff about Dragonamrks & the Houses is down in Halruaa... which is a chain of Five large islands (and lots of smaller ones). MY Halruaa is basically Khorvaire, condensed.
And the Halruaan Airship Co. has bases in all the major cities. Just book passage and your off.
I supposed that's a little less jarring then the 'Great Cormyrian Railroad' I had been planning (just be wary of the Kara-Tur Express).
That COULD be interesting. However, the main question becomes, if they're so advanced, why haven't we seen them showing up in the other regions? Having extremely advanced technology GENERALLY would imply that they'd be willing to explore, etc... There are probably ways we could get around this fact, but then if we work into those ways, do we suddenly remove the reason for having this magi-tech community?
With that thought in mind though, let's play through some ideas.
First off, I'd say whatever IS there shouldn't be human, as that opens up the majority of our options.
What if the people there breathe a special mixture of air, and its only because of creature or plant X that's there that they survive. Also, other people that visit there don't get enough oxygen without some kind of magical aid to stop the need to breathe. Also, maybe the air is slightly acidic or something, but whatever creature it is maybe either absorbs this acid or coats itself in some kind of slimecoat that prevents it bothering them. Benefits... magi-tech... downside... sounds like a creepy weird culture and maybe not fun
What if the people there are highly psionic and they perform their discovery of other regions by "riding" the minds of other individuals. Maybe they are somehow able to work as a variant of warlock patron (similar to vestiges). Could be interesting, but needs work.
Any other ideas? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 00:20:43
But Eberron is more like low-magic. Usually, only player characters are the ones casting high powered spells (there is only one or two persons in all of Eberron capable of using resurrection spells, beyond player characters, for instance). On the other hand, magic items are more widespread on Eberron (just like on Abeir), as well as aimed to more mundane and practical applications. I guess that kind of applications will be more common on Abeir.
On the other hand, is very likely Abeir will have more psionic and primal magic than Toril, as well. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 21:59:56
Eberron in Abeir? 
That makes no sense - Eberron is HIGH magic, even more so than FR.
EDIT:
Unless... you could somehow spin the Dragonmarks as a bloodline (sorceror), or fetish-pact (Shaman/Warlock) with the tattoos as foci. Still, way too much magic to be in a non-magic setting. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 21:18:19
I guess I've "discovered" what I like Laerakond, though. Because is as civilized (in canon, I mean) to the level of Faerûn (or more, as Ed said that one can use Eberron stuff for Laerakond—that means that Laerakond is a little more advanced than Faerûn, at least in a techno-magical field). I do not know nothing of Kara-Tur, though...
But the point is that is not "primitive land with inferior civilization", like Maztica and Lopango and those... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 20:38:09
You know, I was just now thinking, if Osse has really been in Abeir this whole time (which makes perfect sense, since no one's ever heard of it {in-setting}, we know nothing about it, and we've only met one person from it), then what is that big landmass to the SE of Kara-Tur? No-one at WotC has ever officially said that IS Osse - thats just a fan theory we've all agreed upon.
And so I was looking at it, thinking about what could be there. My first thought was, "lets do something different". Now, we've always pictured those non-Faerûnian landmasses as 'primitive' (how very 'great white hunter' of us), but what if at least one of them was technologically superior to The Realms? So then I thought, The Iron kingdoms (its magipunk), but that setting is only the west coast of a larger landmass. So my next thought was, what can i stick on the right side of it? In one map i did I had t hanging off the east end of the Greyhawk maps, but that's not the flavor I want. I want more magi/steampunk. So then I thought, Eberron! Its actually kind of related to IK/Warmachine (it seems to have been based off of the same predecessor {Lock & Load} as that setting... in MANY ways). So I went to look at the map of Eberron to see if I could slice-off the right side of something to match-up to IK, annnnddd.... Khorvaire is actually a pretty damn good fit for Osse, as-is!
EDIT: Even better flipped upside down (I can even get the equator to line-up perfectly), because the terrain makes more sense. Visually, it looks better right-side up, but then we have weirdness with the climate. I just did a quick thing to see how it would look - its even sized perfectly. Aerenal would be better left right-side up, but then its different in its relationship to Khorvaire (and I should care about that why?)
Anyway, I find it somewhat redundant with what we already have in FR, and in my own games I've already stolen all the best parts and pasted them into my Misbegotten Realms. Most of the stuff about Dragonamrks & the Houses is down in Halruaa... which is a chain of Five large islands (and lots of smaller ones). MY Halruaa is basically Khorvaire, condensed.
And the Halruaan Airship Co. has bases in all the major cities. Just book passage and your off.
I supposed that's a little less jarring then the 'Great Cormyrian Railroad' I had been planning (just be wary of the Kara-Tur Express). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 12:39:53
BTW, the way I wrote up the above, its essentially that many of the wild human tribes that were in the area that was "Katashaka" (when all the continents were together) transferred to Abeir onto the continent that is called "Osse" by most of us (during the tearfall or the elven Sundering or possibly even some "other" sundering ). After some time, the continent of Osse actually transferred back to Toril. This basically implies that at some point there was another sundering before what we're calling Sundering 2.0... it just may not have involved Faerun, and so the Faerunians didn't notice.
Also, this transfer initially to Osse from Katashaka, perhaps it setup a center point in Katashaka that is transferred territory from Abeir holding ancient powerful entities that are primordial like but not elemental in nature. Essentially, I've mentioned them having this area with the Kaiju like monsters (the Nyama-nummo). Many of these beings have been asleep for centuries if not millennia, but perhaps their dreams are interacting with this world somehow. For example, in this area Ramenos (giant sleeping froglike god of batrachi), Merrshaulk (giant sleeping snake god), Camazotz (giant sleeping god of Bainligor) are all surrounded by their worshippers. Perhaps occasionally some of them are able to gain the attention of the sleeping "god" and the gods "dreaming" changes them.... and thus elder bainligor become revered ones, etc... Maybe the dreaming of these entities produces powerful forces (for instance, perhaps "The Sleeper" mentioned in GHotR actually dreams Tarrasques into existence when it "awakens" kind of like an avatar that it uses to interact with the world while the body still sleeps). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 01:22:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, I'm thinking there should be a MAJOR connection between Osse and Abeir. Maybe that large continent was never Osse (we have just assumed it was, just because of a single character). But what if 'Osse' has really been a place on Abeir? Maybe Gunggari has really been the first known (to us) example of an Abeiran who traveled to Toril? It would really help tie old lore to the new.
Second, I had some homebrew lore regarding how the Vedic pantheon made it into Toril (a few of those gods are mentioned being in the Malatra region of kara-Tur, in the K-T boxed set). Since they were unable to travel there by normal methods (some of their faithful got stuck in the Realms - I forget how I spun that part), they had to do so through Dreams. I'm sure I can find what I wrote (way back when) if I did a search here at the 'Keep. Anyhow, my whole thought-process there was that the Plane of Dreams was one of the few even Overgods could not block or control. Thus, the Malatrans 'dreamed' their gods into existence. Looking back now, with all thats past since I theorized all that, I'd say its an even better fit now than before.
And I recall people really dug my Arrow of Endless Death.
Hopefully I posted some of that here, and not all of it on the WotC forums.*
So yeah, it could work the same way for magic (Divine or Arcane) - the only way to access them, or even 'the Weave', is through dreams. Not a great connection - rather tenuous and weak at best - but at least its some sort of connection. As for needing an item - that sounds like totemic magic to me. Like a native-American's 'Medicine Bag'. Traditionally, such 'Totems' (fetishes, whatever) are custom-made for each person, so they can access 'the spirit-world' (the only place they can get magic from). However, with D&D, etc., in mind, there could be more powerful (artifact/relic?) items that could be used by anyone. You also usually get a 'spirit guide', which is normally an animal, but can be some type of 'nature spirit' (fey? elemental?), or even an ancestor, depending on the exact culture. In most case, 'the magic' works as it does in Zakhara - your spirit-guide fetches the spell you need. Its a one-at-a-time type of thing.
And yes, I realize I just 'boiled down' thousands of different tribal cultures and traditions in a few generic sentences, but HEY, this is D&D and we have to wrap rules around stuff.
*EDIT:
Nope, couldn't find any of it. {sigh}
And the wotC forums are long gone. I only remember a couple of details.
Yeah, this is what I wrote up so far for the Tharch of Oslander Islands as an overview of Osse's history (which I'm very open to tweaking, as I'm not happy with it) and the actual Tharch itself. Your idea that Gunggari Ulmarra actually crossed the planar boundary between Abeir and Toril BEFORE the spellplague occurred isn't a bad one. It would of course mean that's what's over there now (or rather pre-spellplague) is not Osse but someplace else that no one ever developed.
Personally too, I don't know how much of Osse I'd want to have transfer over to Abeir. After all, we wouldn't have to transfer the whole continent. It didn't happen for Faerun, so it may have only been a portion. This is why I only detailed a handful of islands and a portion of the coastline of the actual continent... that way we could leave the vast portion of the continent maybe for others to do something with. It could possibly be interesting to have a portion have transferred, a century passed, and now they transfer back and create repercussions as a result.
BTW, one of the things I was very interested in having with Osse was a lot of jungle giants on the interior. We had joked at one point about how it sounded a little like Avatar's natives, and the more I think on it, that might not be bad. Especially throwing in the "dream magic" along with some kind of "mind bonding" and psionic talents.
Osse
The history of the people of Osse is a rich oral history filled with references to the dreamtime and contains numerous tales filled with fantastic “great spirits”, talking animals, and the ghosts of their ancestors. Just how many of these tales are true and how many simple allegories meant to teach children the ways to live their lives is exceptionally hard given that the storytellers themselves are often unaware of the truth of such things. There is in fact a belief amongst their people that through their storytelling certain facts can be changed about their world. They call this strange storytelling magic Alcheringa, and it is generally a long, ritualistic form of cooperative magic which often involves stressing the body with dancing, sweats, and hunger, while making the mind more malleable and open by fatigue, the smoking of various pipeweeds, and use of various alchemical extracts. The participants enter a state of almost wakeful dreaming, during which to outside viewers it is obvious that some kind of connection is established between their group minds based upon their interactions. For those outside these rituals, their antics can be entertaining, if not even somewhat comical to those who have no understanding of what is happening. The exact effects that are made upon the world by these rituals are hard to interpret, but there can be no doubting how much those involved believe that they have affected their world through their dreams. Thus, new stories are born, and since they may have changed the world in ways that the outsiders didn't see, they are true, but only to some.
However, many of the stories do share common backgrounds. For instance, many older Osse stories speak of three different eras. First there was the “Time of Great Dreaming” when their people were led by powerful shamans who called upon the power of the na'amnumoans, or powerful spirit beasts from the land of nightmares. Little is remembered from this time, other than the stories of great battles between gigantic opponents, and the stories of humans who descended into bestial forms.
Then suddenly there came the “Era of Stone Sky”, in which the sky suddenly changed from blue to a light stone-like gray and they found themselves in another land entirely. The very earth itself was known to fly in the sky, and apparently it had formed a great glowing, grey barrier which blocked out the sky. Even the clouds had changed, for thunderous skies were said to bring green and copper hued clouds. Luckily, the trappings of their civilization had transferred with them, and they were able to prosper for a time. Unfortunately, they also found that their magic did not work as it had during the time of great dreaming. Their dream shamans were no longer able to call upon the aid of the na'amnumoans.
However, it seemed that in this new land the spirits were more tied to the world around them, creating a special form of magic energy which they called incarnum. They learned of this magic by talking with the spirits, great and small, particularly Olorborem, the spirit of imagination and the life-giving clouds and rainbows. Slowly, spirit shamans and totemists, able to harness the power of spirits of the ancestors, animals, and plants to aid them. Some of these cultures grew strong in power through ritual sacrifice of their enemies and entrapping their spirits to serve them. It is whispered that for a time, they awakened intelligence within the beasts that surrounded them as well, and as a result many villages were known to live and work alongside these noble animals. Of course, the fact that even today talking thylacines, a form of marsupial wolf with tiger-like stripes; Ossean ursines, a small marsupial resembling a mixture of dog and bear particularly noted for the strength of its bite; marsupial lions, kangaroos, and small numbats number amongst most Osse villages lends credence to this story. It was even said that many humans took to taming giant hawks, falcons, and ospreys and forming villages on the great skystones.
Although this period of relative peace and prosperity lasted for a long time, the “Era of Stone Sky” also held a darker period, for the arrival of conquering dragons and dragonborn caught many villages unawares. The humans were taken away to serve as slaves or food for their dragon overlords, meanwhile periodic raids upon Osse tribes continued for millenia. The dragons generally avoided the skystone villages, as their dragonborn soldiers were unable to fly up to them without aid, and thus these societies began to draw more and more of their earthbound cousins to them. Eventually, the dragon overlords began to move onto Ossean soil, so that they could more easily raid for slaves and food. Soon, much of the northern and western coasts were filled with foreign colonies.
The turning point came when these humans of Osse led a small raid against one of the less powerful dragon overlords and captured over a dozen dragon eggs and more importantly, the spirits of hundreds of dragonborn which were absorbed into specially prepared totems. Using a variation on the ancient arts of dream magic and powerful incarnum, they were able to split the spirits within the dragon eggs and transform a willing human into a creature somewhat resembling dragonborn, but possessing wings and a tail. These gliding, dragonmen were near fearless and upon their death, many were known to explode with elemental energies. The humans of Osse, with the aid of many human slaves already within the draconic colonies, soon infiltrated several other dragon colonies and made off with over a hundred dragon eggs. However, based on knowledge gained from the human slaves, they also planted evidence to make the various overlords suspect their fellows rather than the primitive humans. By the time the dragons realized it was the humans who had turned against them, an army of thousands of these dragonmen had been created to serve the humans in their Skystone villages.
The fury of the dragons knew no bounds, and even though they could not easily transport their dragonborn soldiers to assault the Skystone villages, several dragons moved against each of the nearest tribe to them. They were not prepared for the dragonmen, many of whom dived down in suicide flights from the backs of giant hawks to rend and tear at reptilian wings, forcing their enemies to crash to earth. Many dragons were caught unawares when they simply bit into a dragonman, only to have them explode in their mouth. The devastation was amazing, but it further incited riots amongst the overlords' colonies, as dragonborn saw in the dragonmen a reflection of themselves opposing their masters. Within a short time, all dragons had been slain in Osse, and their holdings seized by their servants. A new friendship was forged between dragonborn and human, as many of the transformed humans bred with dragonborn.
Several centuries later, the age known as “The Return of Blue Sky” came when the sky suddenly turned back to blue and a sun, moon, and stars once again appeared. At the same time, the Skystone villages came crashing to earth, destroying much of the civilization which had begun to flourish once again. Their once friendly dragonborn neighbors blamed the humans for the changes which had occurred, for their once great cities had been destroyed by earthquakes generated as they settled into the new world. These dragonborn cultures sank into barbarism, many of them turning to hunting and eating humans as a means of survival, forcing many human tribes toward the eastern and southern coasts.
Portions of the continent had even slid into the sea, leaving strings of hundreds of small islands and dangerous underwater obstacles surrounding Osse's northern and western coast. Over time, these islands saw immigrants from the lands of Kara-Tur and the western edge of Zakhara, but most of these settlements were due to ships being run aground and unprepared for a long stay. Usually their inhabitants did not survive more than a decade due to lack of resources or dragonborn capturing them, but the larger islands along the eastern coast proved a more fertile environment.
Some of these immigrants managed to move inland, resulting in a blending of their cultures to a degree. The idea of alcheringa, or dream magic, has always been strong in Osse, and the art of tattoo magics in various forms is explored by many tribes. Many spirits of far off Kara-Tur have become accepted into their society, and spirit shamans, druids, and totemists are all relatively common. Giant wood or stone carved totem defenders, tied to local spirits of crabs, rams, koalas, kangaroos, kylacines, marsupial lions, emu, goanna, crocodiles, bunyips (an odd seal-shark hybrid able to come on land), and the strange diprotodon (a herbivorous marsupial mammal somewhat resembling an extremely large, pigeon-toed, bear with a giant nose), are a common site in many villages. Sorcerers are rare, but not unheard of like wizards or wu-jen, though they do tend to be segregated from their communities, often imposing self isolation after an accident due to lack of control of their powers. Some tribes have embraced a variety of pact magics, usually with nature spirits or even genies. However, some tribes favor darker powers which favor ritual sacrifice of sentient beings in return for power, and such tribes often favor cannibalism as well.
Though many had heard the stories of the “Era of Stone Sky”, many natives of Osse believed these stories to be simple embellishments meant to impress small children. The idea of floating stone cities and a sky of stone seemed a little too much of a stretch for the imagination. Then a century ago, the sky turned a metallic silver hue and the earthmotes rose. Overnight, the moon had changed in appearance, revealing two great seas, several smaller lakes, three brightly shining mountain ranges, and what appeared to be small collections of sprawling cities. They knew they were no longer in the world that they had known. More importantly, they knew that the old stories must be true.
Once again, the shamans of the many tribes felt the power of great dream magic, for in their dreams the moon was reborn as a part of a great ritual involving many different far flung peoples. The next evening, the moon appeared in the night sky looking just as it had in the old world, desolate but beautiful. A few weeks later, they dreamed of a ritual to call upon Tama'nui'tera, lord of the sun, and Maoi, the trickster god which ensnared the sun with coconut tree vines and beat it with a jawbone to slow it down as it traversed the sky. The next morning, to their amazement, they saw the sun in the sky, being held back by Maoi so as to provide more time in the light for his children.
When the red wizards, led by the tattoo covered Mythrell'aa, appeared on a flying boat descending from the sky to the East Ossean island of Kalgooratha, it was only natural that the natives treated them with awed fascination. However, it was the appearance of Zulkir Mythrell'aa herself that truly dazzled the people of Osse, for the illusionist's pale, blue-white skin did appear to glow with an inner light. Also, she was covered head to toe with strange tattoos which all swore were powerful signs of Alcheringa, though none could exactly recall what they looked like later. Then Mythrell'aa did tell the story of how she and her people had come from one of the Tears of the moon, and as she spoke images formed in the air showing the majesty of Luneira. She spoke of how her people needed to seed the earth, and they brought strange beasts and tools unlike anything that the Oslanders had ever seen. In return for allowing them to share the land and providing aid to work the land, the red wizards offered to teach the islanders of agriculture, animal husbandry, and boat building. Moreover, they would dedicate themselves as protectors of the people of the islands, for all knew that this strange new world would bring with it great danger.
Tharch of the Oslander Islands
This Tharch was established months after the transfer to Abeir occurred by red wizards from the Tharch of Luneira. The Luneiran red wizards had watched the continent of Osse even when it had passed beneath them before the Spellplague. Some had even visited it only to discover that the natives believed in a strange form of dream magic which they referred to as Alcheringa, which the red wizards laughed at as an inherently inferior magic. Then the spellplague occurred, and the interest in cooperative dream magic grew. In addition, the people of Luneira lacked the terrestrial rains necessary to grow crops. So, descending from the stars in their sky ships, the red wizards contacted the simple people of the eastern islands just off the coast of Osse.
But this meeting was not one of conquering invaders come to bring bloody war to Osse. With the transfer to Abeir, the sky had turned steel gray, the sun and moon had disappeared, and the stars in the night sky were different. To the Oslander natives, the pale-skinned Mulans covered in strange and magical tattoos, and wearing elaborate and beautiful clothing and jewelry, seemed to be spirits of the moon descended from the heavens. To add to the fact, they actually brought a large number of the tribal elders aboard their ship and brought them to their flying city amongst the newly formed and solidified “Tears of Selune”. To the natives, this was indeed powerful Alcheringa and these spokesmen convinced their fellow tribesmen to welcome the outsiders.
The Mulan visitors were allowed to build a small village of their own in return for presents of simple magic potions, glass jewelry, collections of seeds and food spices, several simple plowshares and draft animals, and a small collection of musical instruments. They also educated these natives in the use of new farming implements and the care of new plants, and the red wizards used their weather control magics to confirm that their first crop was bountiful enough that the natives might share with their new neighbors. This also taught the red wizards which crops grew well in this new environment, and they soon setup an agreement with the natives to aid them in their trials and tribulations in return for a portion of the crops and the occasional gift of new land in return for additional gifts.
As a result, the red wizards have not expanded very far into the surrounding territory, but they have built up a very healthy relationship with the Oslanders. Over time, they have settled into 3 villages located on the coastline of the original island known as Kalgooratha by the natives. They send their flying ships on a regular basis to the villages that they control to collect their tribute and meet with their local representatives to see if there are any issues that they can aid with. The local representatives usually serve in six month stints, during which time they are treated as honored visitors by the natives. The natives supply their small children to serve as simple servants to clean, prepare meals, take care of small gardens, and generally perform the menial but simple tasks that the red wizards would typically use slaves for. The females amongst Oslanders are also very much attracted to their Mulan benefactors, and as a result a growing amount of the population are less honey golden or bronze skinned and instead more pale-skinned. They continue to grow their hair, which is typically dark, thick and wavy, and are very fond of decorating it with flowers.
It has become somewhat of a tradition amongst the Kalgooratha islanders to send their elders to make a pilgrimage to visit the moon with their immediate family before they die. The red wizards usually have no issues with this simple request, and it is a common thing for ships arriving and departing from the island of Kalgooratha to have Oslander natives who have spent a week or two on holiday at the Tharch of Luneira. As a result, many Oslander natives now make several trips to the great “Sky City” in the latter part of their lives, usually once or twice with their parents and possibly once or twice with themselves or their spouses. The islanders consider it especially rejoiceful if they are able to get a glimpse of Zulkir Mythrell'aa, whom they refer to as “The Painted Lady” for her tendency to periodically change her coloration of her skin, hair, and body art in outlandish colors that no human would possess.
Zulkir Mythrell'aa earned this measure of interest and respect in the years immediately following the spellplague, when a mated pair of green dragons and their dragonborn servants attacked the island of Kalgooratha and the Mulan settlement which had been newly established there. Many Oslander natives were slain in the assault, but none of the survivors would ever forget the sudden appearance of the blue-skinned woman with purple polka dots on her arms and whose entire body was wreathed in green flames. Within seconds, she had slain one of the dragons, its heart giving out of sheer fright it appeared. It dropped from the sky and crushed numerous of its dragonborn servants beneath its dying bulk. The other dragon tried to flee, but Mythrell'aa and her fellow red wizards followed it back in secret to another island just to the north. She then used compulsion magic on the dragon and had it murder all of its remaining dragonborn servants, then slew it while it was in its weakened state.
The red wizards then seized this northerly island and its crude structures for their own. Apparently the dragons and dragonborn had not dwelt there long, having murdered another culture of islanders and moved into their simple huts. The reason they had been drawn to the Island of Kalgooratha had been their sightings of flying ships travelling there from the moon. The red wizards renamed this island New Alaor, and set about setting up a ship building and lumber harvesting community. They use these ships to periodically hunt game, explore, and harvest lumber from the nearby continent of Osse. Over the past hundred years, several times they have run across dragonborn, dragons, and genasi with ties to Abeir, though the extent to which Osse has been overrun they have yet to put in a concerted effort to discover, for the threat has stayed primarily confined to the continent itself.
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 19:53:21
I found that place searching for Nentir Vale stuff. They guy who compiled that info did a great job. He almost saved all (if not all) of what it was in the WotC forums.
But, this bring about another... obstacle for the Tharchs to overcome (yet another, yeahs). We have forgotten why Abeir is so... wrong, compared to Toril. Because is cthulhu-land! Yeah, beyond Shyr and Laerakond, Abeir was a world of abominations, aboleths, Cthulhu, and those... You have to read novels such as the ones from the Abolethic Sovereignty series or Stardeep to get all the lore... but this is mentioned in Stardeep:
quote:
"Would have surprised me if you had." Kiril scrubbed away the wetness on her cheeks. "The Cerulean Sign is a rune of power created when things were not as they are today. Before men, or even elves walked the world, when the continents were divided differently than now, entities strange and powerful fought. When the future was a toss-up between sanity and abomination. [...] The Cerulean Sign was forged to oppose creatures that oozed down from mad realms to colonize Abeir-Toril. To a large extent, those long-vanished defenders of the virgin world succeeded. Abominations, both godlike and inconsequential, were pushed back. Abeir was forgotten. Mortal races eventually inherited the earth."
Meaning that potentially Cthulhu and friends are still living in Abeir (as it proved by the fact that Xxiphu—the kingdom-city of the Abolethic Sovereignty, the first aboleth of the Realms—was on Abeir before the Spellplague, according to the Neverwinter Campaign Setting [p.90]). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 19:03:20
Hey! The Kara-Tur redux thread is there! YAY!!!
There was so much good in that thread, and the Utter East one. The stuff I am looking for is in one of those two.
thanks for the link! |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 18:52:21
You can always search for your post in Secrets of the Archmages. searching there is tricky, though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 18:11:32
First, I'm thinking there should be a MAJOR connection between Osse and Abeir. Maybe that large continent was never Osse (we have just assumed it was, just because of a single character). But what if 'Osse' has really been a place on Abeir? Maybe Gunggari has really been the first known (to us) example of an Abeiran who traveled to Toril? It would really help tie old lore to the new.
Second, I had some homebrew lore regarding how the Vedic pantheon made it into Toril (a few of those gods are mentioned being in the Malatra region of kara-Tur, in the K-T boxed set). Since they were unable to travel there by normal methods (some of their faithful got stuck in the Realms - I forget how I spun that part), they had to do so through Dreams. I'm sure I can find what I wrote (way back when) if I did a search here at the 'Keep. Anyhow, my whole thought-process there was that the Plane of Dreams was one of the few even Overgods could not block or control. Thus, the Malatrans 'dreamed' their gods into existence. Looking back now, with all thats past since I theorized all that, I'd say its an even better fit now than before.
And I recall people really dug my Arrow of Endless Death.
Hopefully I posted some of that here, and not all of it on the WotC forums.*
So yeah, it could work the same way for magic (Divine or Arcane) - the only way to access them, or even 'the Weave', is through dreams. Not a great connection - rather tenuous and weak at best - but at least its some sort of connection. As for needing an item - that sounds like totemic magic to me. Like a native-American's 'Medicine Bag'. Traditionally, such 'Totems' (fetishes, whatever) are custom-made for each person, so they can access 'the spirit-world' (the only place they can get magic from). However, with D&D, etc., in mind, there could be more powerful (artifact/relic?) items that could be used by anyone. You also usually get a 'spirit guide', which is normally an animal, but can be some type of 'nature spirit' (fey? elemental?), or even an ancestor, depending on the exact culture. In most case, 'the magic' works as it does in Zakhara - your spirit-guide fetches the spell you need. Its a one-at-a-time type of thing.
And yes, I realize I just 'boiled down' thousands of different tribal cultures and traditions in a few generic sentences, but HEY, this is D&D and we have to wrap rules around stuff.
*EDIT:
Nope, couldn't find any of it. {sigh}
And the wotC forums are long gone. I only remember a couple of details. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 15:37:53
There is a tribe of "dream" giants (cloud giants from Abeir*) that are transferred from Abeir to Toril in the Sundering 2.0. They have really powerful magic items. The item that Gilgeam gave to Graz'zt in exchange for the demon army was one of theirs. Those items have to do with "dream" magic. So, yeah, dream magic seems to be the magic of Abeir (or at least, the easy one).
*I guess Erin include them in the novels to connect the novel to the current metaplot at the moment, Storm's King Thunder, because beyond explaining stuff that is unrelated to the plot (the dream magic stuff, mainly), those giants have nothing do in the plot... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 15:02:22
Noting, in the above, the intent here would be for the gods that have gone to Abeir to be requiring their priests to use idols and for arcane spellcasters to have to use special arcane focus' they gain through dream interactions with deities. In the above, other gods may work for different people (i.e. Talos may work for many evokers, but some may choose one of the elemental lords... some may choose Helm for abjuration, etc... and basically all of these gods are maybe acting in Abeir as a channel to the weakened Mystra's weave that still works through transferred dweomerheart but feeding from the interaction themselves... Mortals don't truly understand it, BUT it does make them question the all powerful nature of Mystra that they previously assumed... and its not until later in the century that people actually start dreaming of Mystra).
I have a list of the Faerunian gods that I think transferred over (some were already there, but not actively promoting worship, such as the elemental lords). Note, in the below list, I put some names in question marks. This is because I'm leaving it open as to who was actually answering in that deities name. For instance, did Tyr and Helm really die? I have a Metahel Pantheon with a Hemdahl and a Anachtar that are very similar, as well as a Sifya who is similar to the red knight, and a Frethander who is similar to Lathander, a Thoros who is somewhat similar to Talos, and an Eldunna that's similar to Eldath.
Akadi, Bane (?), Bhaal, Deneir, Eldath, Finder Wyvernspur, Gargauth, Grumbar, Helm (?), Istishia, Karsus, Kossuth, Lathander(?), Leira, Nobanion, Mask, Mystra (initially, her presence was faint in Abeir, but over the century she regained her strength, much sooner than she appeared back in Toril), Savras, Selune, Sharess (?) , Talos, The Red Knight (?), Tyr (?), and Velsharoon. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 13:58:12
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, Gilgeam healing Mira's ankle was a plot point in the novel. Though he used a magic talisman to heal her, his magic was "undeniable divine". So, he can produce divine magic, yet he needed a talisman to do it (a talisman he stoled from the "dream" giants).
OHHHHH, I didn't catch THAT piece (talisman from the "dream" giants), and actually maybe we can dovetail that into something useful that fulfills my storyline a little.
So, one of the big things I'm doing (even before I read Erin's novels and realized dream magic would be big there), is I'm having the spellcasters of the Toril in their dreams cast a kind of cooperative magic. They didn't INTEND to do it, but they are. The first one makes the look of the moon look like it did on Toril (now the question some may ask ask here.... is that the moon or Leira's illusion... I don't intend to answer, and most of the people on the surface of Toril don't know about the illusion). The second dream magic causes a sun deity to appear to be "interacting" with the sun in ways that were only theoretically spoken of on Toril (for instance, Re pulling the sun behind him). All the mortal spellcasters see these other groups at work (picture orderly Thayans, but through some mist they see Mazticans studiously working together with pluma magic, hishna magic, totem magic for the Azuposi in the City of Gold etc...). In fact, over in Maztica/Anchorome, their magic may be little affected since it is item based. Anyway, perhaps when these spellcasters awake, they have an arcane focus tied to the god who most closely fits their form of magic (for instance, Talos/Malyk for evokers, Velsharoon for necromancers, Leira for illusionists, Savras for diviners, Auppenser for enchanters (as a form of mind control magic), Karsus for transmuters, and the red knight (Sifya?) might even work for abjurers since abjuration is about planning. That leaves conjurers, and I'm pretty certain I can find a match up there (Gargauth COULD fit here actually). Other pantheons, such as the Mulhorandi may use different gods (Thoth, Set, Isis). For other spellcasting classes (like bards) there could be options like Finder.
So, maybe all spellcasters have to perform some form of dream magic to gain an arcane focus, and if they lose it they're screwed. Initially the Torilians get theirs, but as the generations progress, they have to study up on this dream magic (which I was working towards anyway). This fits in quite well with my belief idea as well... believing in dreams. Hell, maybe the Torilians actually begin to understand it via studying the basis behind pluma, hishna, and totem magic of the Mazticans and Azuposi.
This is only after Velsharoon is freed from his phylactery, and I'm basically playing with the idea that the manifestations of the gods of magic are actually one of the main driving forces on Abeir. One of the main ones is Leira in all this, because maybe she (and maybe Mask) are hiding their presence from the sleeping primordials. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 03:37:46
Well, Gilgeam healing Mira's ankle was a plot point in the novel. Though he used a magic talisman to heal her, his magic was "undeniable divine". So, he can produce divine magic, yet he needed a talisman to do it (a talisman he stoled from the "dream" giants). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 02:59:18
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Everything quoted as canon is pre-spellplague except for the one tidbit where Erin sent people over. We've just established some basic concepts like the world of Abeir may have just been devastated or changed by things transferring. We sure as heck know Toril was. So, the world may have been ruled by dragons before... and maybe it isn't anymore. Maybe just like how a comet hitting earth killed off the big lizards here, maybe that just happened there (in a different way though... I'd hate to blot out the sun... or maybe I wouldn't and that's why Lathander went over, to create a low orbit sun within the atmosphere).
Yes and not. As per The Devil You Know, we have the following of current Abeir:
1. Shyr is still dominated by genasi and Karshimis (the whole Gilgeam's return and rebellion revolves around this).
2. Dragons are still the "Tyrants" and vayemniri (dragonborn) are still either their slaves or rebel against them (as per what Gilgeam, Namshita and Somni tell to Dahl Peredur). So, this means dragons are still rulers of their empires near Shyr.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The reason why I want to make these changes is simple... everything in Abeir that we hear just points to anyone that transferred over gets oppressed. Its boring.
This is the same thing I think about Unther and Mulhorand, xD A land of slavery and death. Of oppression and devolved civilizations. Of yet another humanocentric powers, but these ones dark and optionless. Yet many fans of the Realms will go mad if you try to change the Old Empires into better lands. Heck, they already did it in 4e.
I can find here many people who was really happy when High Imaskar (a land of progress, of no oppression, of civilization, of options) was destroyed by a bunch of people who love being enslaved and brutalized (the Mulhorandi).* And I can bet my lunch of today (napolitan pizza) that many would have been even more happy if Tymanther (another place of freedom, civilization and options) had disappeared in the Sundering as well, replaced by an even more oppressive land (Unther). Heck, the guys of WotC had to bring Unther back because of that.
So, I don't see a problem with Abeir being a brutal land of oppression and no gods. Is the "core" of its being. The land of "darkness" opposed to the land of "light" that is Toril. Is the land of hard guys who fight oppression. Or oppress others. True heroes and villains, compared to those spoiled ones of Toril (I can compare living in Abeir with living in Athas).
As I said, I like your idea of the Tharchs. Is just that to explain why it works, we will have to ignore a lot of canon, change the "core idea" of Abeir, and install yet another humanocentric power in the Realms. It can work, and it has a lot of potential (even I see its potential, and I don't like the idea of making a humanocentric nation in Abeir—there are lots of those in Toril already). Just I'm being childish here.
*The SCAG says that the current Mulhorandi God-Kings have abolished slavery, yeah. That makes no sense reading the Old Empires sourcebook, or the 3rd Campaign Setting. Mulhorandi see slavery a good thing, they are no better than Tevinter.
But at least hints that New Mulhorand has possibilities...
Ok, good point on the part where we may have more than just Caisys telling us there's no wizardry. We have the Untherites (though I'm not sure that they ever said it, but it would have likely been brought up). In fact, is it ever outright said that Gilgeam's priests don't cast spells. I know that they made it out like he was using an amulet to cast the healing spell on the person with Dahl. I'm now remembering why I got a little p.o.'d in reading Erin's last book. Loved the story. Hated the implications as a result. Same way I felt about the Thayan Civil War trilogy.
Note, the amulet to cast divine spells thing for the priests, that WOULD work with the rules I said I wanted to enforce for Abeir (i.e. no clerics, only people using the Priestess: Ancient world Divine Class from DM's Guild) wherein they need to sacrifice for their divine magic. It also enforces the need for a holy symbol or altar to worship at to renew your spell slots. So, basically you can't just renew your bigger slots in the field unless you visit a holy site.
Maybe the same could happen in Abeir with wizardry, as in you can't use an arcane focus in place of the actual material components, and maybe you need the focus as well. Or perhaps their arcane focus has to be something from something that's magical. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 22:24:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: This post should have been posted about three hours ago - I forgot to hit 'post' before I went out. So it is 'out of sequence' - my bad. 
I'm not saying to over-write canon, I'm just saying we can reinterpret the things we do know, especially if we use logic like I did above. You can't say "Abeir has no Weave', when Abeir is IN Realmspace (canon factoid) and ALL of Realmspace has the Weave permeating it (also a canon factoid). Its there - you just can't access it. Thus,for all intents and purposes (and to the viewpoint of everyone on both worlds) there is no Weave around Abeir... but there is.
Something (akin to the Godwall?) is 'blocking' the energy of The Weave from getting through. Whatever 'wavelength' Abeir is sitting at on the quantum spectrum, that 'frequency' in banned. However, magic items made with the Weave still work, which means you can bring a 'piece of the Weave' with you. Same thing with gates/Portals as I said above - if the Gate opens, that 'doorway' itself is a part of Weave magic... that is appearing in Abeir.
Here's my problem with the whole thing. Abeir and Toril overlap. I used to toy with the possibility that its actually in the same orbit, but on the exact opposite side of the sun (a fairly common trope). It would have some sort of 'force field' around it, that lets light in but its diffused (the 'silver sky'), but on the other side its completely BLACK. Thus, from thew outside, you'd have to practically bump into it to find it. I was rather found of that theory.
Buuuuut... we've been told numerous times now that its in the same 'space', just 'out of sync' with Toril. And even though Abeir is inside Realmspace where the Weave permeates everywhere, there is no Weave (access) and no magic on Abeir. A Torillian caster going there - note I do not say 'journeying' - finds themselves devoid of magic. YET, if a Torillian caster goes just about anywhere else in the universe - trillions upon trillions of places the Weave does not touch at all - they still have their magic, usually at full capacity.
So how the heck is any of that possible? The only way any of that works is if we said The Weave is EVERYWHERE in the muliverse itself, and that makes no sense, and goes against lots of other canon. That means Torillian mages do NOT need the Weave at all (its all just a big lie), which means they should be able to 'do magic' on Abeir... which is in Realmspace... with the Weave.
And if we try to blame it all on 'Magic Dead Zones' (and Abeir apparently being a HUGE one), then we have this logic: The only place 'Magic dead Zones' exist is inside Realmspace... where the Weave is. Thus, wherever the Weave ISN'T (the entirety of the rest of the universe), Mages do not have these problems. There are NO 'Magic Dead Zones'. They only exist where the weave exists.
Which can only lead me to one conclusion - the Weave doesn't enhance magic, it limits and/or prohibits it. Without one, magic works just fine.
Realmspace is unique in the fact that raw magic cannot be accessed directly. I think there is a Weave on Abeir, but it is the same Weave as on Toril, it is just out of sync because Abeir is out of sync. Therefore, accessing magic on Abeir is intensely difficult--like a radio station with lots of static.
A Weave, or something akin to it, is necessary in order to access raw magic in order to perform magic in Realmspace. Only deities or similar beings (such as fiends) can grant this power. No deities on Abeir means that none of those things is possible, magic is effectively locked away.
Magic items and supernatural abilities are able to "tune into" the Weave, which is out of sync, and thus still function properly. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 22:16:59
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Like I said previously, this is a simple problem to solve. Just give the Red Wizards an Imaskari artifact that allows them to travel to a demi-plane. They will no longer be on Abeir and thus could use magic normally. They can build the capital city of their empire in this plane, and connect it to other places--including Toril.
It is the easiest solution to the problem. Magic items still work on Abeir, so they can craft magical items to help fight the primordials and dragons. Their city becomes a sanctuary for those fleeing the oppression of the primordials and dragons, and in turn, this gives them more power and influence. Red Wizards perfecting the art of magical item creation is not out of character, considering 3rd Edition turned them into Thaymart, and that was pretty much the role they played with the enclaves.
====
I don't see a problem with the Tharchs as sleyvas propose them. I guess, I don't want to fully accept his idea because it will make a new power of humans in Abeir. Its my pet peeve in action.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Anyway, back to my point with Mulhorand and slavery.
This is why I compare Mulhorand with the Tevinter Imperium of Dragon Age lore. They see slavery in the same light, and some people even sell themselves to slavery in Tevinter, because is better than to live as poor in other lands. Yet, as one of the protagonists of the games says:
"You would think that is better for me to be a slave than a free person?"
Its a good dichotomy of black vs grey, instead of black vs white.
But that only redeems Mulhorand, not Unther... while I can live with Mulhorand (even 3e Mulhorand) back, I see Unther as filling up the place other, not stereotypical evil nation (there are many there already... Thay, for instance) could have used better.
Though, I can understand people who likes the place. I do like Abeir as an expy of Athas in the Realms. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 22:14:13
EDIT: This post should have been posted about three hours ago - I forgot to hit 'post' before I went out. So it is 'out of sequence' - my bad.
I'm not saying to over-write canon, I'm just saying we can reinterpret the things we do know, especially if we use logic like I did above. You can't say "Abeir has no Weave', when Abeir is IN Realmspace (canon factoid) and ALL of Realmspace has the Weave permeating it (also a canon factoid). Its there - you just can't access it. Thus, for all intents and purposes (and to the viewpoint of everyone on both worlds) there is no Weave around Abeir... but there is.
Something (akin to the Godwall?) is 'blocking' the energy of The Weave from getting through. Whatever 'wavelength' Abeir is sitting at on the quantum spectrum, that 'frequency' in banned. However, magic items made with the Weave still work, which means you can bring a 'piece of the Weave' with you. Same thing with gates/Portals as I said above - if the Gate opens, that 'doorway' itself is a part of Weave magic... that is appearing in Abeir.
Here's my problem with the whole thing. Abeir and Toril overlap. I used to toy with the possibility that its actually in the same orbit, but on the exact opposite side of the sun (a fairly common trope). It would have some sort of 'force field' around it, that lets light in but its diffused (the 'silver sky'), but on the other side its completely BLACK. Thus, from thew outside, you'd have to practically bump into it to find it. I was rather found of that theory.
Buuuuut... we've been told numerous times now that its in the same 'space', just 'out of sync' with Toril. And even though Abeir is inside Realmspace where the Weave permeates everywhere, there is no Weave (access) and no magic on Abeir. A Torillian caster going there - note I do not say 'journeying' - finds themselves devoid of magic. YET, if a Torillian caster goes just about anywhere else in the universe - trillions upon trillions of places the Weave does not touch at all - they still have their magic, usually at full capacity.
So how the heck is any of that possible? The only way any of that works is if we said The Weave is EVERYWHERE in the muliverse itself, and that makes no sense, and goes against lots of other canon. That means Torillian mages do NOT need the Weave at all (its all just a big lie), which means they should be able to 'do magic' on Abeir... which is in Realmspace... with the Weave.
And if we try to blame it all on 'Magic Dead Zones' (and Abeir apparently being a HUGE one), then we have this logic: The only place 'Magic dead Zones' exist is inside Realmspace... where the Weave is. Thus, wherever the Weave ISN'T (the entirety of the rest of the universe), Mages do not have these problems. There are NO 'Magic Dead Zones'. They only exist where the weave exists.
Which can only lead me to one conclusion - the Weave doesn't enhance magic, it limits and/or prohibits it. Without one, magic works just fine. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 21:53:38
I agree that abolishing slavery in Mulhorand was a mistake, but more on that in a moment...
====
Like I said previously, this is a simple problem to solve. Just give the Red Wizards an Imaskari artifact that allows them to travel to a demi-plane. They will no longer be on Abeir and thus could use magic normally. They can build the capital city of their empire in this plane, and connect it to other places--including Toril.
It is the easiest solution to the problem. Magic items still work on Abeir, so they can craft magical items to help fight the primordials and dragons. Their city becomes a sanctuary for those fleeing the oppression of the primordials and dragons, and in turn, this gives them more power and influence. Red Wizards perfecting the art of magical item creation is not out of character, considering 3rd Edition turned them into Thaymart, and that was pretty much the role they played with the enclaves.
====
Anyway, back to my point with Mulhorand and slavery. I always saw things a bit differently. There is a strong bias that slavery = evil. However, I would argue that it depends on the type of slavery and how the slaves are treated. In many ways, being a slave can be indistinguishable from being a serf or a peasant, literally tied to the land and forced to work for the lord.
I always viewed Mulan societies as unequal but fairly just places--maybe even better places to live, depending on who you were than other places in the world. The Mulan viewed themselves as this sort of pinnacle of humanity, decadent and civilized. Other peoples, in their eye, tended to be backward unlettered savages. The Mulan peoples are the bringers of enlightenment, the people who uplift the barbarians of this land so that they may know culture, and the proper way to live. Of course, they will never *BE* Mulan, after all--some things are too deeply inbred in the lesser peoples--but they can still strive to better themselves and they should do so. The Gods choose as they will, and the Gods choose some to rule and others to serve. They have just chosen the Mulan people to rule, as evidenced by the favor they showed to them by appearing in the flesh.
It's this sort of mentality to permeates Mulan cultures. It's a sort of culture that has this whole Divine Right + Manifest Destiny + Colonial Power feel to it. So, it is not like they are engaging in chattel slavery, where the slaves are actively abused and harmed. In fact, in Mulhorand, the slaves were owned by the good aligned cults. Slaves are given opportunities to advance themselves and their families through service, and many of them are even given some form of education or trade.
So, in a sort of irony, it could be possible for a slave in Mulhorand to rise to have more power and influence than a peasant in Cormyr. For example, if you serve well, show some sort of natural aptitude for something, you could find yourself being placed into the service of a powerful family. Serving that family well grants additional power and prestige, and if you are speaking and acting on their behalf, you are basically the equivalent of a noble in another land. Are you "free?" No, but loyal service is rewarded, and natural talents and developing useful skills are highly valued. So, it wouldn't be weird in Mulhorand to see decadent, powerful, wealthy slaves overseeing entire estates while overseeing other slaves. Meaning that it would basically be a situation where a slave is "owning" slaves (although they would really belong to his Mulan masters--which really belong to the cults, lol).
Anyway, that was how I extrapolated things and played out Mulhorand. I mean, it's good aligned churches owning slaves. They -HAVE- to have a different concept of freedom and individual rights culturally in order to maintain their goodness.
EDIT: I do not want to paint the life of the average slave of the Mulan as glamorous or anything like that--it is not. However, when we talk about the average slave in the Mulan cultures--especially Mulhorand--I think we should be thinking about things in the same context that we think about peasants and nobility in Cormyr. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 20:35:07
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Everything quoted as canon is pre-spellplague except for the one tidbit where Erin sent people over. We've just established some basic concepts like the world of Abeir may have just been devastated or changed by things transferring. We sure as heck know Toril was. So, the world may have been ruled by dragons before... and maybe it isn't anymore. Maybe just like how a comet hitting earth killed off the big lizards here, maybe that just happened there (in a different way though... I'd hate to blot out the sun... or maybe I wouldn't and that's why Lathander went over, to create a low orbit sun within the atmosphere).
Yes and not. As per The Devil You Know, we have the following of current Abeir:
1. Shyr is still dominated by genasi and Karshimis (the whole Gilgeam's return and rebellion revolves around this).
2. Dragons are still the "Tyrants" and vayemniri (dragonborn) are still either their slaves or rebel against them (as per what Gilgeam, Namshita and Somni tell to Dahl Peredur). So, this means dragons are still rulers of their empires near Shyr.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The reason why I want to make these changes is simple... everything in Abeir that we hear just points to anyone that transferred over gets oppressed. Its boring.
This is the same thing I think about Unther and Mulhorand, xD A land of slavery and death. Of oppression and devolved civilizations. Of yet another humanocentric powers, but these ones dark and optionless. Yet many fans of the Realms will go mad if you try to change the Old Empires into better lands. Heck, they already did it in 4e.
I can find here many people who was really happy when High Imaskar (a land of progress, of no oppression, of civilization, of options) was destroyed by a bunch of people who love being enslaved and brutalized (the Mulhorandi).* And I can bet my lunch of today (napolitan pizza) that many would have been even more happy if Tymanther (another place of freedom, civilization and options) had disappeared in the Sundering as well, replaced by an even more oppressive land (Unther). Heck, the guys of WotC had to bring Unther back because of that.
So, I don't see a problem with Abeir being a brutal land of oppression and no gods. Is the "core" of its being. The land of "darkness" opposed to the land of "light" that is Toril. Is the land of hard guys who fight oppression. Or oppress others. True heroes and villains, compared to those spoiled ones of Toril (I can compare living in Abeir with living in Athas).
As I said, I like your idea of the Tharchs. Is just that to explain why it works, we will have to ignore a lot of canon, change the "core idea" of Abeir, and install yet another humanocentric power in the Realms. It can work, and it has a lot of potential (even I see its potential, and I don't like the idea of making a humanocentric nation in Abeir—there are lots of those in Toril already). Just I'm being childish here.
*The SCAG says that the current Mulhorandi God-Kings have abolished slavery, yeah. That makes no sense reading the Old Empires sourcebook, or the 3rd Campaign Setting. Mulhorandi see slavery a good thing, they are no better than Tevinter.
But at least hints that New Mulhorand has possibilities... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 19:53:59
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can see on this piece, we're going to have disagreements.
I don't see it as a source of disagreement. I do like your idea of the Tharchs. However, I see that it strays too much from what is being established in canon.
And while is true that maybe nobody will be using Abeir, there are a few premises that are still in place in current canon:
1. Abeir is a no-gods land (and this is more true now than ever, thanks to Ao rewriting the Tablets of Fate).
2. Magic is harder to work in Abeir than in Toril.
3. Abeir is a harsh land dominated by dragons and primordials. For humanocentric nations, we already have plenty of those in Toril.
If we can somehow develop your Tharchs without invalidating those premises, the idea would be canon-friendly, making it useful for more than just one "world-state".
EDIT: Mind, there is an easy solution to this. You can work on your idea as you conceived it for your campaign, but provide an "alternative point of view" for those who want to work as close possible to canon. Like a mini-toolbox of ideas or something like that.
Everything quoted as canon is pre-spellplague except for the one tidbit where Erin sent people over. We've just established some basic concepts like the world of Abeir may have just been devastated or changed by things transferring. We sure as heck know Toril was. So, the world may have been ruled by dragons before... and maybe it isn't anymore. Maybe just like how a comet hitting earth killed off the big lizards here, maybe that just happened there (in a different way though... I'd hate to blot out the sun... or maybe I wouldn't and that's why Lathander went over, to create a low orbit sun within the atmosphere).
The reason why I want to make these changes is simple... everything in Abeir that we hear just points to anyone that transferred over gets oppressed. Its boring. At least with some other options, like the gods were over there (fearing for their lives) and trying desperately to protect their people. You could also have the dragon lords come in and the people fight back... maybe some win.. maybe some don't... For instance, I'm taking the areas around the serpent kingdoms and opening them up for non-humans to have punted the human cultures that were there and then get transferred over to Toril when the land moves back. A portion of the humans that were there fled over to where Fort Flame/Balduran Bay is.
But maybe even in these other areas, while there are human communities that are surviving, maybe they aren't thriving. For instance, up in Anchorome, there's the lands of the insect men and the Poscadar elves. Maybe those insect men really took off because they had some spellweavers amongst them, and maybe they even enslaved some Abeirans (which ones... don't know... dragonborn, genasi, saurials, lizard folk, something else).
All of this by simply allowing that magic wasn't necessarily totally broken and that some gods went over to protect their people (which we kind of see, with Gilgeam showing up, and some possibility that the Mulhorandi may have had their own deities in some form). The gods that were there may even have had to go over in a form like manifestations were in Unther/Mulhorand (and thus, really had to fear those primordials). I had actually been playing with this idea in mind for the most part (i.e. the gods being physical entities that maybe were holed up in specific places... maybe not even known where these places were by their worshippers). If they were there as manifestations, they would be free to act as a separate entity than their full godly self in Toril. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 18:10:10
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can see on this piece, we're going to have disagreements.
I don't see it as a source of disagreement. I do like your idea of the Tharchs. However, I see that it strays too much from what is being established in canon.
And while is true that maybe nobody will be using Abeir, there are a few premises that are still in place in current canon:
1. Abeir is a no-gods land (and this is more true now than ever, thanks to Ao rewriting the Tablets of Fate).
2. Magic is harder to work in Abeir than in Toril.
3. Abeir is a harsh land dominated by dragons and primordials. For humanocentric nations, we already have plenty of those in Toril.
If we can somehow develop your Tharchs without invalidating those premises, the idea would be canon-friendly, making it useful for more than just one "world-state".
EDIT: Mind, there is an easy solution to this. You can work on your idea as you conceived it for your campaign, but provide an "alternative point of view" for those who want to work as close possible to canon. Like a mini-toolbox of ideas or something like that. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 14:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This is why one of the big things I'm proposing is that certain gods went over with their people. In many instances, it was whole pantheons. The one offshoot I have going with this is the domain of dweomerheart. Essentially, I'm sending a weakened but not dead Mystra over there along with several servitor deities who spend the last century trying to "nurse her back to health". Or it might be that its somehow Mystra I that took over when Cyric attacked Mystra II. The truth behind it doesn't need to be solid concrete yet.
IIRC, Ed said that the current Mystra (Mystra the Third) is like a combination of Mystra I and Mystra II (like, the weakened Mystra II consumed all the memories of Mystra I that were stored in the Weave to survive, and was reborn as a new form of Mystra)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, in these areas, the weave starts to recover, and its due to the belief in the gods. As belief in the gods begins to spread in Abeir as well, this weave begins to take root. By the end of the century however, I'm not seeing a full fledged weave in Abeir.... but maybe enough people in other areas left behind have taken up worship of these transferred gods that SOME of the gods are able to leave a small portion of themselves there, get some faith energy, and thrive.
Your idea assumes people in Abeir will automatically begin to believe in gods just because a few Torilians did some magic tricks of faith. And if that didn't happened in Toril—the land where gods were commonplace and stuff—(as of 1479, the only region in Laerakond where gods were worshiped was the Windrise Ports—so a few cities—, and only as cults not full blown religions), I don't see how religions can have been founded in Abeir, the lands where gods were some novelty from only a hundred years before
There will be small cults to be sure, made up by those surviving Torilians and a few Abeirans that got conviced, but thriving or organized religions? It would be illogical. I doubt the gods will have gained a significant power from those cults. Sure, they didn't languished or died, but neither were powers to be reckoned with in Abeir.
There is also the fact that they were in the house of their enemies... if the gods feared beings like Entropy or Rorn (just individual primordials), well... those gods in Abeir needed to be really careful, because they were in the wrong neighborhood. I don't see starting religions as something different to paint big bulleyes—with neon lights—on their foreheads.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ubtao is Qotal, which implies his family/pantheon is also Primordials.
This is worse. I don't see the primordials having love for the guy who betrayed them in the Dawn War...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, while you see these red wizards as weak and ruined, I see them as "taking a punch" and then adjusting quickly... because of all the human wizards of current day, I think the red wizards adjust to changes very quickly.
I don't see them as weak, just a powerless. They adapt quicky, yes, in world were magic is granted. In Abeir, magic is not granted (or, as Markustay said, is not granted by those spoiled by the Weave).
First of all were the Wailing Years. Those years were "no magic", because of the Spellplague. Magic returned in 1395. Without a Weave, in Abeir may have take more time to return.
Second, is the fact that the Spellplague did kill or made mad nearly all spellcasters. It has to have affected most of those red wizards as well. So, the surviving red wizards capable of using magic were few.
Third, even as magic returned, spellcasters of Toril had to relearn how to use magic, because their older formulas (the vancian magic) didn't worked anymore. And they had the Weave (damaged and all, but somehow still functional). That's why warlocks became a thing in the Realms (lorewise): many preferred to make pacts than to reinvent and then re-learn the whole theory of magic. The War Wizards of Cormyr began to train as Purple Dragons becuase they were useless as mages (this eventually did rise to a school of swordmages).
For the spellcasters in Abeir will have been even harder to regain their magic.
Now, I'm not saying that our idea is rubbish. Just that, is very difficult to reconcile it with canon.
However, I can see other ways for those Red Wizards to survive. They may have become something like the Mages of Saruun (Nentir Vale mages): mages that are also merchants. I can see them surviving by offering their services to dragons instead of fighting them. And there will be many swordmages in their ranks.
EDIT: I also like Aldrick idea of Red Wizard artificers.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
latest AMA - that there IS a Weave. The rest of what you said matches up though.
He says that there is a "Weave", but isn't the Weave. There is something that someone from Toril will say "this is the Weave", but what is seems, this "Weave" of Abeir is something different to the Weave of Toril.
We also have to take into account that there is a published novel that specifically says that there isn't a Weave in Abeir (The Devil You Know). IIRC, Ed is the second level of canon priority. So, as I understand it, what Ed says cannot contradict established canon.
So, the only solution here is that the "Weave" of Abeir is not technically a Weave, but another kind of arcane source (maybe a gestalt magical energy pool, a la Eberron?). But, from the point of view of a Torilian, it will be a Weave.
When I asked Erin about it, she said this (I hope it helps).
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
4. In The Devil You Know, Caysis says that a person cannot use magic on Abeir, because there is no Weave. This is confirmed by Farideh and Ilstan being unable to use their spells while on Verthishai Loech Ternesh. However, the FRCG talks about spells in ancient Abeir (such as that sentient magic that made the dwarves of Durnlynbold/Raurokh flee from their homes).
My doubt is: how magic works on Abeir? There were no wizards, warlocks or divine casters, but there were sorcerers? That can explain that living spell, and also, dragons are somehow innate casters.
That's all. Thanks in advance.
That is the gist. There are no gods, and so there is no Mystra, and so there is no Weave, per se. The plane is largely sealed from the Hells (although this may be only since Asmodeus became a god). All magic in Abeir has to account for that. Which means all the interesting wild cases probably have lots of room to grow! And lots of spaces for new kinds of magic ideas!
The Dawn Titans had magic, and so I like the idea of Dawn Titan artifacts and remnants being magic sources. Dragons too. If it's self-contained, self-generating, then I think it's fair.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When Elminster went to the world of the Saurials (and I STILL think that was abeir!)
Do you remember that world from Dragonlance that had some uber dragons... I believe that was Abeir, xDD
I mean it. The dragons of Abeir were the steeds of the primordials. Those kinds of dragons just need to be more powerful than normal ones.
I can see on this piece, we're going to have disagreements. My concepts for Abeir basically revolve around various godly domains that were connected to Toril's world tree basically "disconnecting" from Toril as a result of the spellplague and he moving of lands and the godly domains "reconnect" to Abeir instead (which previously had no such domains as well as no access to the abyss). Maybe these godly domains did exactly like the abyss did and somehow transferred themselves from the outer planes to connect into the elemental chaos. Maybe they somehow spawned an alternate astral plane for Abeir. Maybe even that's what Abeir's steelsky IS is an "alternate" astral plane, and if you actually fly up to it, you can enter it if you know how.
If one can accept this basic concept, then a lot of other things can fall into place. I get that the religions won't take off like hotcakes in the surrounding regions, but the seeds may grow (maybe not in time to be useful for our campaigns, but I also don't see a lot of people planning to use Abeir itself... mostly they want to figure out how it all affected Toril). I also get that 100 years is a blink in the eyes of the primordials, and it may take another 500 to a thousand years before they start waking up again if they truly went to sleep.
I get that Erin had one guy (a very shady fiendish figure who wasn't from Abeir mind you, so his knowledge is questionable) who told them that magic wasn't working in Abeir. However, he didn't necessarily travel the whole world and his knowledge may be localized to this one area (which may be magic dead for a myriad of reasons).
So, the question, as it often comes down to with canon, is just HOW canon is it... how valid is the resource telling you things... a lot of what Toril knows of Abeir is from pre-spellplague... and they're freaking guessing because they didn't even know Abeir existed (and vice versa). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 14:20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, they (designers/authors/'guys that work for wotC') avoid questions about how Weave-casters operate just fine outside of Realmspace. Since thats the case, it means most everything we know about the Weave is a lie (which is why they avoid that can-O-worms). When Elminster went to the world of the Saurials (and I STILL think that was abeir!), El was battling multiple dragons with just some little finger-wags. He wasn't hampered in any way, and even seemed to be enjoying himself. One thing I noticed is that he was curious about where he was, and didn't seem all that interested in rushing home (which backs-up my theory he may have been on Abeir at that time - something Mystra never told him about). In fact, the saurial 'wizard' even made a point of the magic there being totally different - he had to use some sort of weird 'exchange spell' to get himself to Toril. Yet, despite him saying right there in that novel that magic on his world worked very differently, there was the Old Mage, flinging spells left and right.
Pretty telling.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay,
On your idea about spellcasters having to adjust when going to other places. This has been one of the things that has bothered me for a long time, because Torilians don't have a problem with they say travel to an outer plane that Mystra has no control over. It occurs to me that one of the things we've always discussed is the linkage of "the weave" to spirit/soul "energy". So, maybe Torilians to some kind of limited degree "carry" a bit of the weave with them like a battery or maybe more like a cable that crosses planar boundaries (yes, similar to a silver cord that an astral form has).
You know, this could very easily tie into my discussion above about "lands of belief" where the weave still exists and the gods are able to be worshipped while on Abeir. I think if we can develop this better (if this isn't enough) we can have the people transferred to Abeir actually be able to hold their own in many instances.
Also, interestingly enough, when some areas transfer BACK to Abeir (and what ARE those exactly... as we've been discussing keeping a lot of Tymanther, all of Akanul, and keeping Laerakond just shifted for a while now), but assuming some things transfer back to Abeir and we're not just stealing from Abeir... when they return they may have a "weave" that's seeded and can grow.
Oh, and regarding this personal link to the weave and say when Farideh et al transferred to Abeir temporarily we can come up with several reasons why they were "truly" cut off from the weave. A primordial's bones for instance creates an area of dead magic. Maybe Caisys' telling people that there would be no weave lessened their belief that there would be one, and the belief that there wouldn't be one took hold. Maybe because they weren't in the "lands of belief" area their link back to the weave was suppressed by something involving that portion of the world and something the primordials did to prevent the god's influence spreading into Abeir.
Except for the series by Rich Baker, I haven't read any post-3e FR novels, so its hard for me to make comments on a lot of this.
The way I see it, anything that happens in an novel is hearsay, which means it could be inaccurate. Not that anyone is 'lying', but we are seeing/hearing/experiencing events through the characters, and what if they've been given false information? Also not through any malice - the people (from Abeir) they are interacting with could believe what they are saying is 100% true.
For example, one of the things I've thrown around before was that Abeir has two separate hemispheres that don't interact for some reason (there are lots of reasons why that could be), and what is 'true' for one may not be true for the other. One thing we do know about Abeir is that its where nearly all of the primordials wound-up after the Dawn War. So those 'Bones of the Primordials' may be all over the place in certain areas, making the whole region 'magically dead'. And people living there would think thats just how it is, everywhere.
But there could be another continent (or two) where that isn't the case. Or even just a remote island. The fact is, you can get from one world to the other, which means magic has to have 'punched through' somewhere. On some level, the magic of Abeir and the magic of Toril have to be compatible, because a Gate can be opened between the two, without everything just blowing up. the minute that portal opens up on Abeir - be it arcane, divine, or just 'magical chaos' - thats MAGIC, from TORIL... and its leaking into Abeir the moment that doorway opens.
But the truth is, its compatible because its the same. Its all really just 'magic'. The only thing different is who you are asking for it (same drug, different dealers). Mystra just has a near-monopoly on Toril (and we were never too sure about that, either - Faerûn is actually just a small part of the world, and even there, places don't bother with her, like the Old Empires and Chult).
Just some quick excerpts. I too want Abeir to be the place of the Saurials. I can't remember the argument some folk gave against it, BUT it was compelling enough that I gave up. HOWEVER, if Ao twinned Toril, who is to say that at the same time he didn't twin some of the other worlds on realmspace? I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to say having one of the other planets in realmspace be "in sync" with Abeir and it being the home of the Saurials. In fact, I think one of the planets closer to the sun has a huge lizard folk population. anyway, sidebarring that idea.
On the weave thing. There is another piece of this puzzle that definitely points to Abeir having a "weave" that may be compatible with Toril's, and that's Ed's own article in Dragon 427 called Worlds Afire at least discusses the concept of spellcasters using the power to mix the "weaves" of multiple worlds to increase their personal power. In it he actually discusses a former Zulkir of Thay who faked his own death who is studying such magics "and is a threat". I decided to actually take this Zulkir and make him a current Zulkir of the United Tharchs of Toril and have him actually BE in Abeir (and secretly maybe he is one of the few folks who discovered a way to travel back and forth, and even prior to the sundering he was gathering information for the United Tharchs of Toril that would aid their return in say the decade leading up the Sundering 2.0). This guy could prove very useful as a tool for history, and then after the Sundering, maybe he is greatly weakened because he can't draw on Abeir's power anymore.... or maybe he can? Maybe he spied "the Maw of the Godswallower" and it was this magical source of destruction that he somehow decided to "tap". Since I'm looking to have this section of Toril which is now "destroyed" actual "suck over" the area I'm calling the "Red Mineral Forest of Shyr" to fill the void.... maybe this Zulkir and his Worldfire experiments kind of caused this. Might need work.
From that article
Secrets of the Art
A few terms are known only to bards (among whom they are embroidered to mean all manner of fanciful things), a handful of clergy of Mystra, sages of the Art, and ambitious, boldly experimenting wizards.
One of these terms is lurking regard, the belief that many spells have their own sentience (gained from mysterious bodiless creatures drifting in the world). This is why spells betimes appear to aid and abet certain spellcasters (and other creatures) while betraying
or frustrating others.
A second secret of the Art is paronder, the notion that Mystra or some other entity or mysterious natural force of the multiverse promotes a sort of cosmic balance, so that those who wreak havoc will later have havoc visited upon them, those who act kindly will be treated with kindness, and so on.
A third is worldfire, the concept of draining the energies of one world or plane of existence through a magical conduit, ravaging it locally in the process, to empower a spellcaster in another beyond the powers they would normally be able to wield.
All these terms are based in reality—things that have happened and can be made to happen again—but they are often exaggerated far beyond what can be achieved by most experimenters in most conditions. The Sundering is not “most conditions,” however.
Worldfire
It so happens, Elminster has let slip, that some dabblers in worldfire are seeking to take advantage of the moving apart of Abeir and Toril to drain life from one world to make themselves mighty in the other. Mystra has specifically forbidden her Chosen and other servitors to work directly against these dabblers; the risk of their conduit magic successfully draining silver fire from her Chosen and causing real and lasting damage to her, the Weave, and both Abeir and Toril is too great.
She urges those loyal to her, however, to make mortal adventurers, dragons, and all magically powerful beings aware of the dangers of such dabblings, in hopes they will thwart worldfire-seekers. Accordingly, Elminster wants Faerûn to be aware of three current users of worldfire, wizards who can, through magic of their own devising, call upon energy they are “robbing Abeir of ” to cast more spells than they should be able to—spells that deal greater damage and have larger areas of effect than the same spells cast by others. These three are Roroebryn, Talaskos Murthrond, and Velvroame.
Roroebryn “The Stag” is so called because he often disguises himself with an illusion spell that changes his facial features and gives him insubstantial but seemingly real antlers. He seeks wealth and petty political power, always gravitating to bustling cities where he can subvert matriarchs and patriarchs of wealthy families or high-ranking civic officials, thereby bettering himself. He loves gaining new spells.
Talaskos Murthrond is a handsome, purring-voiced former Zulkir of Thay who long ago foresaw Szass Tam’s rise, faked his own demise, and departed his homeland for a skulking existence spent hiding in remote places of Faerûn amid magical mists.
“Velvroame” is the alias of a renegade witch of Rashemen who rejected the traditions and society of her heritage in favor of a life spent mastering shapeshifting magics and seeking to rule various sorts of
shapeshifters, proclaiming herself “The Everchanging Queen,” a quasi-deity all such creatures should obey.
Elminster warns that several cabals of wizards, such as the Seekers of Forgotten Dooms in Selgaunt and the Wondermasters of Athkatla, are experimenting with combining spells to drain life from afar and portals to link planes of existence. He further advises they may soon join the ranks of worldfire wielders.
and a footnote later states
Worldfire, Elminster stresses, is merely a catchy invented word. Unlike spellfire, there is no fire involved and few wild discharges of energy. The very nature of this quite real, dangerous-to-all practice forces it to be a firmly controlled, covert draw of energy from afar, not any sort of raging conflagration or ray or beam of ravening destruction—though, in some cases, such energy can intensify spells that unleash fiery destruction.
Also, these notes on that Zulkir
Although his habit of conjuring magical mists (sometimes including various gaseous or amorphous creatures that will fight at his command) has led some individuals to mistakenly believe Murthrond was
related to the mysterious “Mistmaster” of the northwestern High Forest (in the Sword Coast North), Elminster doesn’t believe the two have ever met, let alone collaborated on anything or learned from each other. Murthrond has become a recluse who prefers to watch,
withdraw, and wait patiently for the best moment to strike—very different from most authoritarian zulkirs. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 06:02:08
I do like that interpretation, though. Is pretty much like the "weave" Albanon uses in Oath of Vigilance (Nentir Vale novel). |
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