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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 22:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
**As I just edited what I wrote, I realized that most of the time there is a Weave, and although Abeirans can't really access it (at least not easily), its still there. Under normal circumstances, that means a Torillian finding themselves accidentally on Abeir 'may' have slightly easier time accessing it than someone who has never had any experience with it. Lets just say you'd have to make SR on Wisdom, and if you make it you can access The Weave, but treat all spells as THREE levels higher. If you FAIL the roll, you can barely access it and treat all spells FIVE levels higher (so a 4th level spell would count as a Ninth level spell, and if you can't cast ninth level spells, well then, your poop out of luck). And if you get a critical failure ('1'), you can't access it at all - you'd have to completely learn magic again from scratch.
And thats just under NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. During the Spellplague, or at any time when The Weave isn't operating correctly (ToT, Karsus' Folly, etc), you'd have no chance of access. So when all those people first got shifted over into Abeir, they would not have been able to use any magic. At least, not at first (and even then, they chances were slim). I can definitely see a lot of panicky Mages making 'pacts' with whatever they could so they could get some semblance of their magic back. On the flipside, some of the people who had some small talent with magic in Abeir may have suddenly found themselves with 'godlike powers' (to their way of thinking) on Toril. Not that there would be too many of those, and they'd still have to learn new spells, but still, magic would suddenly be 'all around them', all the time. It would be like a Defiler from Athas suddenly appearing in The Realms - it would be a 'feast' to them.
In the Devil You Know (the last of Erin's novels), the characters cannot access the Weave while on Abeir. Simple, there is no Weave there, and a Torilian spellcaster in that world cannot use magic (not in traditional way, at least). That is specifically stated in the novel by a guy named Caisys the Vicelord, that happens to be one of the most powerful warlocks of Toril in the current age. And that novel happens in 1487 (the Weave having being restored to full normality in 1482, according to Bryseis Kakistos). The characters (Farideh, a warlock; Isltan, a wizard; Lorcan, a devil), simply could not use even a cantrip. But there were a few creatures in that cave that could use magic.
One could argue that they were in an anti-magic field, though. Because the novel contradicts the FRCG that says that, while in Abeir, dragons of Laerakond created living spells and that stuff. Also contradicts the fact that, in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, there were dragonborn spellcasters. They were "not common", and their arcane practices "unorthodox" compared to that of elves and humans, but they existed.
When I asked Ed about it, he said what I posted earlier. There is no Weave on Abeir. There is something that is not technically a "Weave", but a Torilian will say "this is the Weave". That something isn't THE Weave (as in, Toril's Weave) as is not Mystra, and Mystra is not connected to it in any form. Mystra is aware of that magical force, however, and can control it to some degree, but not entirely. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 22:49:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 00:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The throw-away line about Murghôm (and Semphar) having 'Dragon Princes' could easily be interpreted to mean Dragonborn, or even half-dragons
Well, while Semphar wasn't really touched in 4e lore, they developed (at least to some level) Murghôm, in the Brotherhood of the Griffon three first novels.
I've compiled info of the known dragon princes of Murghôm on the wiki.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Speaking of which, we've never really seen how Shou respond to Dragonborn or even half-dragons - they should be viewed with awe and reverence, given the culture.
BTW, how did this thread start talking about Murghôm? Do they all start blending together after awhile? 
Sadly, that was not regarded in 4e. We know some Abeiran parts appeared in Kara-Tur, but that it is all we know.
As for Murghôm, it appeared in the topic because Aldrick wanted to use it, xD
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, was Laerakond isolated or were there other "continents"/"islands" relatively nearboy?
We know Shyr was to the east of Laerakond, and we know that Tymanchebar and Akanûl were rivals (as Tymanther and Akanûl's current age enmity comes from that older rivalry), so that means that Shyr must have been close to Laerakond for that rivalry to exist.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Holy cow... I just realized that on the other side of all this, in Abeir, hell there may have been a LOT more death than there was on Toril.
I remember reading in some part that the Weave acted as some form of armor to protect Toril from the damage... (it was in the Herald novel). Well, Abeir doesn't have a Weave... (according to Ed there is something that a Torilian will mistake for a "weave", but technically isn't the Weave, as it not connected to Mystra—tough Mystra knows about it and can control it to some degree).
So, yes. Abeir suffered a lot worst than Toril, indeed...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
so the idea of them going out to explore some huge arsed area of continents full of humanoids with magic may just not be in the cards.
Maybe not in the first decades. But I can see explorers out to investigate the continent after the things became calmer. In Toril took ten years for that (the Wailing Years), so, it maybe took the same amount of time for Abeir. Or a little bit more... so, after 1400 DR I can see a few dragons exploring Maztica, and even one or two making their kingdoms there. Isn't something illogical.
And there is also the fact of what Ed said. The "Weave" of Abeir is different from that of Toril. In the Devil You Know, was literally non-existent for Torilians. I can see the Red Wizards as useless as Farideh and friends in TDYK those first years, trying to adapt to this more difficult to use magical rules (magic works easier for spontaneous casters —like dragons or sorcerers— than for mages or warlocks). The dragons and their servants, on the other hand, are experts in the use of magic without a Weave...
In this scenario, the Red Wizards are the loser side, in fact. Dragons can easily decimate them, as they have either no magic, and no knowledge of this new world to use as a tactical advantage. Is more likely that the Red Wizards survived because they struck some bargain with a powerful dragon (protection in exchange for something unique the Red Wizards can provide to the dragon) than by the force of arms.
Now that we talk about this, I remember why I came to Candlekeep. Well, I was a casual reader before, but I became a regular user because I was helping Seethyr with a few ideas of how could have Maztica evolved while in Abeir.
If you like, I can share those ideas with you. There are a few ideas that I don't want to fade into nothingness.
Yes, I believe Seethyr is the one who produced the Maztica supplement and a lot of the follow up stuff that was produced for DMs Guild. I'm actually trying to work "around" his work without messing with it. The one thing I'm not liking from his though is the assumption that the gods were gone for a century and the people over there kept on worshipping the same way until they returned. I honestly can't see that happening, given that these people were used to gods that actually interacted with them. After a generation, I see worship services almost stopping if there's no return on investment (faith becomes weaker when you've been getting actual healing and such and it stops... it becomes doubt and eventually despondence).
This is why one of the big things I'm proposing is that certain gods went over with their people. In many instances, it was whole pantheons. The one offshoot I have going with this is the domain of dweomerheart. Essentially, I'm sending a weakened but not dead Mystra over there along with several servitor deities who spend the last century trying to "nurse her back to health". Or it might be that its somehow Mystra I that took over when Cyric attacked Mystra II. The truth behind it doesn't need to be solid concrete yet.
Anyway, if we can accept this concept, then magic itself in Abeir was less impacted than say magic in Toril, because some of the weave went with it. Also, just like how the steelsky followed Laerakond but didn't take up the whole sky, maybe this "weave" is only "semi-solid" in the areas transferred to Abeir. I'm referring to these areas as the "lands of belief". So, in these areas, the weave starts to recover, and its due to the belief in the gods. As belief in the gods begins to spread in Abeir as well, this weave begins to take root. By the end of the century however, I'm not seeing a full fledged weave in Abeir.... but maybe enough people in other areas left behind have taken up worship of these transferred gods that SOME of the gods are able to leave a small portion of themselves there, get some faith energy, and thrive. This can help explain away anomalies like what we saw in Erin's novel for why surrounding a primordials bones that there was dead magic (though just being around a primordial's bones in and of itself can also be an explanation for a dead weave).
Now will the primordials wake up to challenge this? Maybe.... and once we settle how we're changing Toril... I think it would be an additional fun project to take our decisions for Toril and play out how to build an actual Abeir for use.
So, while you see these red wizards as weak and ruined, I see them as "taking a punch" and then adjusting quickly... because of all the human wizards of current day, I think the red wizards adjust to changes very quickly. Meanwhile, these dragons on Abeir, as we just discussed, they may have been seriously impacted without a weave to protect them. Also, time to a dragon isn't the same as time to a human. So, it may have been 50 years instead of 10 years before these dragons were ready to quit nit picking with their home territories and sent out feelers to find out what happened. Maybe a lot of these feelers weren't the dragons themselves, but servitors, and these servitors were decimated against a people familiar with the art.
Also, in certain areas of Anchorome and maybe even Maztica, the "gods" may have already have been Primordials. For instance, its heavily hinted that Ubtao is Qotal, which implies his family/pantheon is also Primordials. Up in the city of gold region, they worship "Great Spirits" that could also be Primordials. So, the dragons may show up, only to have a pissed off Primordial show up to challenge them because these primordials are enjoying faith energy.
Oh, speaking of faith energy, one other change. One of the things I've loved and adopted was something for DM's Guild that was highlighted in an article by WotC in Dragon+ about 8 months ago. It this article called Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess&test_epoch=0
Basically, you want divine magic... you gotta sacrifice. So, my version of the divine spellcasters while in Abeir is that the gods contact them, and all the clerics are converted. For Maztica... its basically what they had been used to. In other areas as well, it may have fit well. It would mostly be the Faerunian divine casters who have to adapt, which the red wizard society is more arcane focused, so I don't see the change being as bad... especially if the red wizards are more focused over the last century in capturing small bits of land and holding it, and not say going off into the rest of Abeir. In fact, one of the things that I've alluded to is Velsharoon telling the demilich Ythazz Buvarr that he is tasked with "protecting Cimbar and Soorenar until they are returned to Toril", which may have the United Tharchs discussing over the next century that this is a temporary thing and that they may return "home" and that they just need to mend up and weather the trials while in this other place.
sidebar: I'm also including a Metahel Pantheon that transferred, and that Metahel pantheon includes an alternate version of the Norse pantheon. The names are different, some of the relationships are different, some of the stories are altered, etc... but I'm laying the groundwork that maybe, just maybe, the disappearance and death of Tyr, Helm, Lathander, and the existence of some others that I've discussed such as Valigan Thirdborn, the red knight and eldath may be somehow crossing into this patheon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 00:59:18
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Markustay,
On your idea about spellcasters having to adjust when going to other places. This has been one of the things that has bothered me for a long time, because Torilians don't have a problem with they say travel to an outer plane that Mystra has no control over. It occurs to me that one of the things we've always discussed is the linkage of "the weave" to spirit/soul "energy". So, maybe Torilians to some kind of limited degree "carry" a bit of the weave with them like a battery or maybe more like a cable that crosses planar boundaries (yes, similar to a silver cord that an astral form has).
You know, this could very easily tie into my discussion above about "lands of belief" where the weave still exists and the gods are able to be worshipped while on Abeir. I think if we can develop this better (if this isn't enough) we can have the people transferred to Abeir actually be able to hold their own in many instances.
Also, interestingly enough, when some areas transfer BACK to Abeir (and what ARE those exactly... as we've been discussing keeping a lot of Tymanther, all of Akanul, and keeping Laerakond just shifted for a while now), but assuming some things transfer back to Abeir and we're not just stealing from Abeir... when they return they may have a "weave" that's seeded and can grow.
Oh, and regarding this personal link to the weave and say when Farideh et al transferred to Abeir temporarily we can come up with several reasons why they were "truly" cut off from the weave. A primordial's bones for instance creates an area of dead magic. Maybe Caisys' telling people that there would be no weave lessened their belief that there would be one, and the belief that there wouldn't be one took hold. Maybe because they weren't in the "lands of belief" area their link back to the weave was suppressed by something involving that portion of the world and something the primordials did to prevent the god's influence spreading into Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2017 01:04:02 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 00:59:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
When I asked Ed about it, he said what I posted earlier. There is no Weave on Abeir. There is something that is not technically a "Weave", but a Torilian will say "this is the Weave". That something isn't THE Weave (as in, Toril's Weave) as is not Mystra, and Mystra is not connected to it in any form. Mystra is aware of that magical force, however, and can control it to some degree, but not entirely.
Hmm... Ed said the opposite on the latest AMA - that there IS a Weave. The rest of what you said matches up though.
quote:
There is a Weave there. It is not called the Weave or thought of as the Weave except by people from Toril. We have no idea how much of an influence Mystra has in it. Mystra knows that it is connected and that she can reach through it, but she is not dominant there, she is not the Weave of Abeir in the way she is the Weave of Toril.
I haven't gotten to the Devil You Know yet, but is it possible the Torilian casters just can't spells because they can't access the Torilian Weave? I imagine the Weave of Abeir would be a very different thing, which might explain why they can't use it to cast spells (unless they learn how from scratch). |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 29 Jul 2017 01:01:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 02:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In the Devil You Know (the last of Erin's novels), the characters cannot access the Weave while on Abeir. Simple, there is no Weave there, and a Torilian spellcaster in that world cannot use magic (not in traditional way, at least). That is specifically stated in the novel by a guy named Caisys the Vicelord, that happens to be one of the most powerful warlocks of Toril in the current age. And that novel happens in 1487 (the Weave having being restored to full normality in 1482, according to Bryseis Kakistos). The characters (Farideh, a warlock; Isltan, a wizard; Lorcan, a devil), simply could not use even a cantrip. But there were a few creatures in that cave that could use magic.
One could argue that they were in an anti-magic field, though. Because the novel contradicts the FRCG that says that, while in Abeir, dragons of Laerakond created living spells and that stuff. Also contradicts the fact that, in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, there were dragonborn spellcasters. They were "not common", and their arcane practices "unorthodox" compared to that of elves and humans, but they existed.
When I asked Ed about it, he said what I posted earlier. There is no Weave on Abeir. There is something that is not technically a "Weave", but a Torilian will say "this is the Weave". That something isn't THE Weave (as in, Toril's Weave) as is not Mystra, and Mystra is not connected to it in any form. Mystra is aware of that magical force, however, and can control it to some degree, but not entirely.
Except for one problem, there IS a Weave, which is precisely what I said. It doesn't matter if WotC says it, or Ed says it - there IS A WEAVE. We've been using it since first edition (and Ed before that, so he should know better LOL).
So you're going to say, "But MarkusTay, thats on Toril, not Abeir."
It is? It lays physically on Toril, like a blanket? You can go outside and pick a section of it up? NO - its an energy field that occupies the same space as Toril. It permeates it - its in and around EVERYTHING FR.
So where is Abeir? Is it in another Crystal Sphere? NO, we have been told that it lies within Realmspace. Hmmmmm... we've also been told, in the past, that the Weave permeates all of Realmspace. Its on all the planets in Realmspace... even the ones we can't see.
Abeir and Toril occupy the same physical space, but are out of sync with each other (vibrating at different quantum frequencies? Who the Hel knows). That means that The Weave definitely occupies the space Abeir is in. Now, it may be insanely hard to access (and most folks would think impossible), but thats not necessarily so. As long as folks can travel to and from a place - and thats always been possible with Abeir & Toril, albeit extremely difficult - then accessing something on the 'other side' of that barrier has to be possible (if physical matter can move through it, then so can energy, else everyone would come out the other end DEAD). Its about as hard as getting back and forth between Ravenloft and... anywhere else.
So the Weave is there, all around them, they just can't 'touch it' because like Toril, 'its out of sync'. However, things like that should only be problematic, not impossible, to epic casters and powerful gods. I'm sure the primordials were aware of the Weave back in Abeir - they could probably feel it. They just couldn't do anything with it. What Abeir does have is probably the more ancient (Eldritch) Raw magic, which Toril also has, but you can only access it through the filter of The Weave. Mortals don't have it in them to handle using that directly - it would burn them out. Thus, primordials and others (Elder Wurrms?) have to access the power and act as a conduit - in other words, 'make pacts'.
The two systems aren't really as different from each other as people are making them out - its just that on Toril, you make your pact with Mystra, and you get to use her Weave. She truly is 'the tyrant of magic'. All Shar did was copy her and build her own interface, and even Lolth tried to make a Weave.
Stop believing all the hype of Mystra's church - she was never the 'be all, end all' of magic. Thats just what she (and her clergy) marketed her as. Plenty of people were using magic on Toril without knowing about Mystra, or bothering with her Weave. What do you think Divine Magic is? Its a type of 'pact'. Abeir not having a Weave just means Mystra couldn't exert control over the place with hers. The magic is still there, you just have to figure out how to get to it.
And I still think Darksun is a place on Abeir.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jul 2017 02:45:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 02:59:10
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Yeah, they (designers/authors/'guys that work for wotC') avoid questions about how Weave-casters operate just fine outside of Realmspace. Since thats the case, it means most everything we know about the Weave is a lie (which is why they avoid that can-O-worms). When Elminster went to the world of the Saurials (and I STILL think that was abeir!), El was battling multiple dragons with just some little finger-wags. He wasn't hampered in any way, and even seemed to be enjoying himself. One thing I noticed is that he was curious about where he was, and didn't seem all that interested in rushing home (which backs-up my theory he may have been on Abeir at that time - something Mystra never told him about). In fact, the saurial 'wizard' even made a point of the magic there being totally different - he had to use some sort of weird 'exchange spell' to get himself to Toril. Yet, despite him saying right there in that novel that magic on his world worked very differently, there was the Old Mage, flinging spells left and right.
Pretty telling.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay,
On your idea about spellcasters having to adjust when going to other places. This has been one of the things that has bothered me for a long time, because Torilians don't have a problem with they say travel to an outer plane that Mystra has no control over. It occurs to me that one of the things we've always discussed is the linkage of "the weave" to spirit/soul "energy". So, maybe Torilians to some kind of limited degree "carry" a bit of the weave with them like a battery or maybe more like a cable that crosses planar boundaries (yes, similar to a silver cord that an astral form has).
You know, this could very easily tie into my discussion above about "lands of belief" where the weave still exists and the gods are able to be worshipped while on Abeir. I think if we can develop this better (if this isn't enough) we can have the people transferred to Abeir actually be able to hold their own in many instances.
Also, interestingly enough, when some areas transfer BACK to Abeir (and what ARE those exactly... as we've been discussing keeping a lot of Tymanther, all of Akanul, and keeping Laerakond just shifted for a while now), but assuming some things transfer back to Abeir and we're not just stealing from Abeir... when they return they may have a "weave" that's seeded and can grow.
Oh, and regarding this personal link to the weave and say when Farideh et al transferred to Abeir temporarily we can come up with several reasons why they were "truly" cut off from the weave. A primordial's bones for instance creates an area of dead magic. Maybe Caisys' telling people that there would be no weave lessened their belief that there would be one, and the belief that there wouldn't be one took hold. Maybe because they weren't in the "lands of belief" area their link back to the weave was suppressed by something involving that portion of the world and something the primordials did to prevent the god's influence spreading into Abeir.
Except for the series by Rich Baker, I haven't read any post-3e FR novels, so its hard for me to make comments on a lot of this.
The way I see it, anything that happens in an novel is hearsay, which means it could be inaccurate. Not that anyone is 'lying', but we are seeing/hearing/experiencing events through the characters, and what if they've been given false information? Also not through any malice - the people (from Abeir) they are interacting with could believe what they are saying is 100% true.
For example, one of the things I've thrown around before was that Abeir has two separate hemispheres that don't interact for some reason (there are lots of reasons why that could be), and what is 'true' for one may not be true for the other. One thing we do know about Abeir is that its where nearly all of the primordials wound-up after the Dawn War. So those 'Bones of the Primordials' may be all over the place in certain areas, making the whole region 'magically dead'. And people living there would think thats just how it is, everywhere.
But there could be another continent (or two) where that isn't the case. Or even just a remote island. The fact is, you can get from one world to the other, which means magic has to have 'punched through' somewhere. On some level, the magic of Abeir and the magic of Toril have to be compatible, because a Gate can be opened between the two, without everything just blowing up. the minute that portal opens up on Abeir - be it arcane, divine, or just 'magical chaos' - thats MAGIC, from TORIL... and its leaking into Abeir the moment that doorway opens.
But the truth is, its compatible because its the same. Its all really just 'magic'. The only thing different is who you are asking for it (same drug, different dealers). Mystra just has a near-monopoly on Toril (and we were never too sure about that, either - Faerûn is actually just a small part of the world, and even there, places don't bother with her, like the Old Empires and Chult). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jul 2017 03:10:00 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 03:52:40
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Here is what the FR Wiki has to say about magic on Abeir:
quote:
Magic manifested differently on Abeir than in Toril, as there was no Weave and no normal ways to contact any gods, as gods were wary about this world. Planar magic, such as that granted to warlocks by a pact, also worked differently and was more difficult to use than in Toril.
The only magic that worked normally on Abeir was that a creature could create on its own, such as the inherent elemental magic a primordial had in its body or a dragon's breath. Magic items also worked normally on Abeir, and Abeiran dragons usually scavenged primordial corpses in order to create powerful artifacts from their remains, such as the Breath of Petron.
Creating artificial portals to Abeir was nearly impossible, but a few natural portals connected Abeir and Toril.
Okay, so magic is wonky on Abeir. Magic items still function normally. Okay, so we have an out. It just requires us to alter the plot slightly.
Red Wizards end up on Abeir. "Oh noes! Mah magic don't work!" Lucky for them there is a Red Wizard who transported over who created a demi-plane. He has a magical artifact that allows him to open gateways to said demi-plane. It is actually an old Imaskari artifact. The Red Wizards, Mulan, their Maztican surfs, and maybe even Dragonborn from fallen Tymanchebar flee to them.
They have a demi-plane. They are no longer on Abeir. Their magic works fine now, and they are safe from the primordials, dragons, and other nasties. A capital city is built within this demiplane with this Red Wizard ruling it. Of course, he is a power hungry tyrant, the artifact gives him enormous power. He must go, and so he gets overthrown ten years or so down the line. The artifact falls into the hands of the Cult of Kossuth, who argue that only they can be a neutral holder of such an artifact. (Otherwise Red Wizards will be killing each other trying to seize control over it.)
Because they can work magic within the demiplane, and because magic items can be used in Abeir, they become master magical item crafters. They craft powerful magical artifacts aimed at fighting primordials and dragons, use the Dragonborn as foot soldiers, and basically establish an empire on Abeir. Okay, but why stop there?
Since they are on a demi-plane, they also open gates to other worlds as well--including Toril. They carefully control who goes through the Torillian gate, sending only their most trusted agents through. They collect information for them.
By connecting this plane to other worlds, it allows us to establish them in other settings like Greyhawk, and create a connection there. It also allows people, who want to use the Candlekanon cosmology, but also want to create a homebrew world, to connect it to the demiplane as well. So, this city basically becomes a nexus between many different worlds. They establish colonies on multiple worlds, becoming a multi-world spanning empire.
Post-Sundering, an invasion force from these Red Wizards appears somewhere on Toril. They've returned home, and have a bone to pick with Tam.
Setting something up like this allows us to canonically have a way to travel from Toril to Abeir (or from Abeir to Toril), as well as to other worlds such as Greyhawk. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 05:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This is why one of the big things I'm proposing is that certain gods went over with their people. In many instances, it was whole pantheons. The one offshoot I have going with this is the domain of dweomerheart. Essentially, I'm sending a weakened but not dead Mystra over there along with several servitor deities who spend the last century trying to "nurse her back to health". Or it might be that its somehow Mystra I that took over when Cyric attacked Mystra II. The truth behind it doesn't need to be solid concrete yet.
IIRC, Ed said that the current Mystra (Mystra the Third) is like a combination of Mystra I and Mystra II (like, the weakened Mystra II consumed all the memories of Mystra I that were stored in the Weave to survive, and was reborn as a new form of Mystra)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, in these areas, the weave starts to recover, and its due to the belief in the gods. As belief in the gods begins to spread in Abeir as well, this weave begins to take root. By the end of the century however, I'm not seeing a full fledged weave in Abeir.... but maybe enough people in other areas left behind have taken up worship of these transferred gods that SOME of the gods are able to leave a small portion of themselves there, get some faith energy, and thrive.
Your idea assumes people in Abeir will automatically begin to believe in gods just because a few Torilians did some magic tricks of faith. And if that didn't happened in Toril—the land where gods were commonplace and stuff—(as of 1479, the only region in Laerakond where gods were worshiped was the Windrise Ports—so a few cities—, and only as cults not full blown religions), I don't see how religions can have been founded in Abeir, the lands where gods were some novelty from only a hundred years before
There will be small cults to be sure, made up by those surviving Torilians and a few Abeirans that got conviced, but thriving or organized religions? It would be illogical. I doubt the gods will have gained a significant power from those cults. Sure, they didn't languished or died, but neither were powers to be reckoned with in Abeir.
There is also the fact that they were in the house of their enemies... if the gods feared beings like Entropy or Rorn (just individual primordials), well... those gods in Abeir needed to be really careful, because they were in the wrong neighborhood. I don't see starting religions as something different to paint big bulleyes—with neon lights—on their foreheads.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ubtao is Qotal, which implies his family/pantheon is also Primordials.
This is worse. I don't see the primordials having love for the guy who betrayed them in the Dawn War...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, while you see these red wizards as weak and ruined, I see them as "taking a punch" and then adjusting quickly... because of all the human wizards of current day, I think the red wizards adjust to changes very quickly.
I don't see them as weak, just a powerless. They adapt quicky, yes, in world were magic is granted. In Abeir, magic is not granted (or, as Markustay said, is not granted by those spoiled by the Weave).
First of all were the Wailing Years. Those years were "no magic", because of the Spellplague. Magic returned in 1395. Without a Weave, in Abeir may have take more time to return.
Second, is the fact that the Spellplague did kill or made mad nearly all spellcasters. It has to have affected most of those red wizards as well. So, the surviving red wizards capable of using magic were few.
Third, even as magic returned, spellcasters of Toril had to relearn how to use magic, because their older formulas (the vancian magic) didn't worked anymore. And they had the Weave (damaged and all, but somehow still functional). That's why warlocks became a thing in the Realms (lorewise): many preferred to make pacts than to reinvent and then re-learn the whole theory of magic. The War Wizards of Cormyr began to train as Purple Dragons becuase they were useless as mages (this eventually did rise to a school of swordmages).
For the spellcasters in Abeir will have been even harder to regain their magic.
Now, I'm not saying that our idea is rubbish. Just that, is very difficult to reconcile it with canon.
However, I can see other ways for those Red Wizards to survive. They may have become something like the Mages of Saruun (Nentir Vale mages): mages that are also merchants. I can see them surviving by offering their services to dragons instead of fighting them. And there will be many swordmages in their ranks.
EDIT: I also like Aldrick idea of Red Wizard artificers.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
latest AMA - that there IS a Weave. The rest of what you said matches up though.
He says that there is a "Weave", but isn't the Weave. There is something that someone from Toril will say "this is the Weave", but what is seems, this "Weave" of Abeir is something different to the Weave of Toril.
We also have to take into account that there is a published novel that specifically says that there isn't a Weave in Abeir (The Devil You Know). IIRC, Ed is the second level of canon priority. So, as I understand it, what Ed says cannot contradict established canon.
So, the only solution here is that the "Weave" of Abeir is not technically a Weave, but another kind of arcane source (maybe a gestalt magical energy pool, a la Eberron?). But, from the point of view of a Torilian, it will be a Weave.
When I asked Erin about it, she said this (I hope it helps).
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
4. In The Devil You Know, Caysis says that a person cannot use magic on Abeir, because there is no Weave. This is confirmed by Farideh and Ilstan being unable to use their spells while on Verthishai Loech Ternesh. However, the FRCG talks about spells in ancient Abeir (such as that sentient magic that made the dwarves of Durnlynbold/Raurokh flee from their homes).
My doubt is: how magic works on Abeir? There were no wizards, warlocks or divine casters, but there were sorcerers? That can explain that living spell, and also, dragons are somehow innate casters.
That's all. Thanks in advance.
That is the gist. There are no gods, and so there is no Mystra, and so there is no Weave, per se. The plane is largely sealed from the Hells (although this may be only since Asmodeus became a god). All magic in Abeir has to account for that. Which means all the interesting wild cases probably have lots of room to grow! And lots of spaces for new kinds of magic ideas!
The Dawn Titans had magic, and so I like the idea of Dawn Titan artifacts and remnants being magic sources. Dragons too. If it's self-contained, self-generating, then I think it's fair.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When Elminster went to the world of the Saurials (and I STILL think that was abeir!)
Do you remember that world from Dragonlance that had some uber dragons... I believe that was Abeir, xDD
I mean it. The dragons of Abeir were the steeds of the primordials. Those kinds of dragons just need to be more powerful than normal ones. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Jul 2017 05:31:39 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 05:39:52
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I hope to get to the Devil You Know eventually, but not there yet... is it possible that when Erin says "there is no Weave" she means no Weave like we know it on Toril? She uses "per se", so there's a lot of room to move there!
Maybe it might help to illustrate how I think about things using weave and Weave as different things.
I imagine that a "weave" of sorts exists on all planets with magic - the potential for magic residing in the life energies of that planet, flowing through and around everything. These flows intercross and connect naturally, in a "weave-like" pattern. On Toril, Mystra has inserted part of herself into that flow, and directly controls how it operates - becoming the weave itself. Toril's weave is thus a controlled construct known as The Weave.
So, Abeir has a weave, but it's a naturally occurring mess - it's not The Weave.
I imagine when Erin says "there is no Mystra, and so there is no Weave, per se", she means there is no presence of Mystra, and therefore The Weave cannot be present - though there is still the raw potential for magic on Abeir, which exists as a naturally occuring weave.
I've based this concept on what Ed has said about the Weave here in his scrolls, as well as what he's said about magic on other planets, and that AMA talk, but I won't pretend it's the only way to interpret all this stuff. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 29 Jul 2017 05:42:34 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 06:02:08
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| I do like that interpretation, though. Is pretty much like the "weave" Albanon uses in Oath of Vigilance (Nentir Vale novel). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 14:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, they (designers/authors/'guys that work for wotC') avoid questions about how Weave-casters operate just fine outside of Realmspace. Since thats the case, it means most everything we know about the Weave is a lie (which is why they avoid that can-O-worms). When Elminster went to the world of the Saurials (and I STILL think that was abeir!), El was battling multiple dragons with just some little finger-wags. He wasn't hampered in any way, and even seemed to be enjoying himself. One thing I noticed is that he was curious about where he was, and didn't seem all that interested in rushing home (which backs-up my theory he may have been on Abeir at that time - something Mystra never told him about). In fact, the saurial 'wizard' even made a point of the magic there being totally different - he had to use some sort of weird 'exchange spell' to get himself to Toril. Yet, despite him saying right there in that novel that magic on his world worked very differently, there was the Old Mage, flinging spells left and right.
Pretty telling.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Markustay,
On your idea about spellcasters having to adjust when going to other places. This has been one of the things that has bothered me for a long time, because Torilians don't have a problem with they say travel to an outer plane that Mystra has no control over. It occurs to me that one of the things we've always discussed is the linkage of "the weave" to spirit/soul "energy". So, maybe Torilians to some kind of limited degree "carry" a bit of the weave with them like a battery or maybe more like a cable that crosses planar boundaries (yes, similar to a silver cord that an astral form has).
You know, this could very easily tie into my discussion above about "lands of belief" where the weave still exists and the gods are able to be worshipped while on Abeir. I think if we can develop this better (if this isn't enough) we can have the people transferred to Abeir actually be able to hold their own in many instances.
Also, interestingly enough, when some areas transfer BACK to Abeir (and what ARE those exactly... as we've been discussing keeping a lot of Tymanther, all of Akanul, and keeping Laerakond just shifted for a while now), but assuming some things transfer back to Abeir and we're not just stealing from Abeir... when they return they may have a "weave" that's seeded and can grow.
Oh, and regarding this personal link to the weave and say when Farideh et al transferred to Abeir temporarily we can come up with several reasons why they were "truly" cut off from the weave. A primordial's bones for instance creates an area of dead magic. Maybe Caisys' telling people that there would be no weave lessened their belief that there would be one, and the belief that there wouldn't be one took hold. Maybe because they weren't in the "lands of belief" area their link back to the weave was suppressed by something involving that portion of the world and something the primordials did to prevent the god's influence spreading into Abeir.
Except for the series by Rich Baker, I haven't read any post-3e FR novels, so its hard for me to make comments on a lot of this.
The way I see it, anything that happens in an novel is hearsay, which means it could be inaccurate. Not that anyone is 'lying', but we are seeing/hearing/experiencing events through the characters, and what if they've been given false information? Also not through any malice - the people (from Abeir) they are interacting with could believe what they are saying is 100% true.
For example, one of the things I've thrown around before was that Abeir has two separate hemispheres that don't interact for some reason (there are lots of reasons why that could be), and what is 'true' for one may not be true for the other. One thing we do know about Abeir is that its where nearly all of the primordials wound-up after the Dawn War. So those 'Bones of the Primordials' may be all over the place in certain areas, making the whole region 'magically dead'. And people living there would think thats just how it is, everywhere.
But there could be another continent (or two) where that isn't the case. Or even just a remote island. The fact is, you can get from one world to the other, which means magic has to have 'punched through' somewhere. On some level, the magic of Abeir and the magic of Toril have to be compatible, because a Gate can be opened between the two, without everything just blowing up. the minute that portal opens up on Abeir - be it arcane, divine, or just 'magical chaos' - thats MAGIC, from TORIL... and its leaking into Abeir the moment that doorway opens.
But the truth is, its compatible because its the same. Its all really just 'magic'. The only thing different is who you are asking for it (same drug, different dealers). Mystra just has a near-monopoly on Toril (and we were never too sure about that, either - Faerûn is actually just a small part of the world, and even there, places don't bother with her, like the Old Empires and Chult).
Just some quick excerpts. I too want Abeir to be the place of the Saurials. I can't remember the argument some folk gave against it, BUT it was compelling enough that I gave up. HOWEVER, if Ao twinned Toril, who is to say that at the same time he didn't twin some of the other worlds on realmspace? I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to say having one of the other planets in realmspace be "in sync" with Abeir and it being the home of the Saurials. In fact, I think one of the planets closer to the sun has a huge lizard folk population. anyway, sidebarring that idea.
On the weave thing. There is another piece of this puzzle that definitely points to Abeir having a "weave" that may be compatible with Toril's, and that's Ed's own article in Dragon 427 called Worlds Afire at least discusses the concept of spellcasters using the power to mix the "weaves" of multiple worlds to increase their personal power. In it he actually discusses a former Zulkir of Thay who faked his own death who is studying such magics "and is a threat". I decided to actually take this Zulkir and make him a current Zulkir of the United Tharchs of Toril and have him actually BE in Abeir (and secretly maybe he is one of the few folks who discovered a way to travel back and forth, and even prior to the sundering he was gathering information for the United Tharchs of Toril that would aid their return in say the decade leading up the Sundering 2.0). This guy could prove very useful as a tool for history, and then after the Sundering, maybe he is greatly weakened because he can't draw on Abeir's power anymore.... or maybe he can? Maybe he spied "the Maw of the Godswallower" and it was this magical source of destruction that he somehow decided to "tap". Since I'm looking to have this section of Toril which is now "destroyed" actual "suck over" the area I'm calling the "Red Mineral Forest of Shyr" to fill the void.... maybe this Zulkir and his Worldfire experiments kind of caused this. Might need work.
From that article
Secrets of the Art
A few terms are known only to bards (among whom they are embroidered to mean all manner of fanciful things), a handful of clergy of Mystra, sages of the Art, and ambitious, boldly experimenting wizards.
One of these terms is lurking regard, the belief that many spells have their own sentience (gained from mysterious bodiless creatures drifting in the world). This is why spells betimes appear to aid and abet certain spellcasters (and other creatures) while betraying
or frustrating others.
A second secret of the Art is paronder, the notion that Mystra or some other entity or mysterious natural force of the multiverse promotes a sort of cosmic balance, so that those who wreak havoc will later have havoc visited upon them, those who act kindly will be treated with kindness, and so on.
A third is worldfire, the concept of draining the energies of one world or plane of existence through a magical conduit, ravaging it locally in the process, to empower a spellcaster in another beyond the powers they would normally be able to wield.
All these terms are based in reality—things that have happened and can be made to happen again—but they are often exaggerated far beyond what can be achieved by most experimenters in most conditions. The Sundering is not “most conditions,” however.
Worldfire
It so happens, Elminster has let slip, that some dabblers in worldfire are seeking to take advantage of the moving apart of Abeir and Toril to drain life from one world to make themselves mighty in the other. Mystra has specifically forbidden her Chosen and other servitors to work directly against these dabblers; the risk of their conduit magic successfully draining silver fire from her Chosen and causing real and lasting damage to her, the Weave, and both Abeir and Toril is too great.
She urges those loyal to her, however, to make mortal adventurers, dragons, and all magically powerful beings aware of the dangers of such dabblings, in hopes they will thwart worldfire-seekers. Accordingly, Elminster wants Faerûn to be aware of three current users of worldfire, wizards who can, through magic of their own devising, call upon energy they are “robbing Abeir of ” to cast more spells than they should be able to—spells that deal greater damage and have larger areas of effect than the same spells cast by others. These three are Roroebryn, Talaskos Murthrond, and Velvroame.
Roroebryn “The Stag” is so called because he often disguises himself with an illusion spell that changes his facial features and gives him insubstantial but seemingly real antlers. He seeks wealth and petty political power, always gravitating to bustling cities where he can subvert matriarchs and patriarchs of wealthy families or high-ranking civic officials, thereby bettering himself. He loves gaining new spells.
Talaskos Murthrond is a handsome, purring-voiced former Zulkir of Thay who long ago foresaw Szass Tam’s rise, faked his own demise, and departed his homeland for a skulking existence spent hiding in remote places of Faerûn amid magical mists.
“Velvroame” is the alias of a renegade witch of Rashemen who rejected the traditions and society of her heritage in favor of a life spent mastering shapeshifting magics and seeking to rule various sorts of
shapeshifters, proclaiming herself “The Everchanging Queen,” a quasi-deity all such creatures should obey.
Elminster warns that several cabals of wizards, such as the Seekers of Forgotten Dooms in Selgaunt and the Wondermasters of Athkatla, are experimenting with combining spells to drain life from afar and portals to link planes of existence. He further advises they may soon join the ranks of worldfire wielders.
and a footnote later states
Worldfire, Elminster stresses, is merely a catchy invented word. Unlike spellfire, there is no fire involved and few wild discharges of energy. The very nature of this quite real, dangerous-to-all practice forces it to be a firmly controlled, covert draw of energy from afar, not any sort of raging conflagration or ray or beam of ravening destruction—though, in some cases, such energy can intensify spells that unleash fiery destruction.
Also, these notes on that Zulkir
Although his habit of conjuring magical mists (sometimes including various gaseous or amorphous creatures that will fight at his command) has led some individuals to mistakenly believe Murthrond was
related to the mysterious “Mistmaster” of the northwestern High Forest (in the Sword Coast North), Elminster doesn’t believe the two have ever met, let alone collaborated on anything or learned from each other. Murthrond has become a recluse who prefers to watch,
withdraw, and wait patiently for the best moment to strike—very different from most authoritarian zulkirs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 14:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This is why one of the big things I'm proposing is that certain gods went over with their people. In many instances, it was whole pantheons. The one offshoot I have going with this is the domain of dweomerheart. Essentially, I'm sending a weakened but not dead Mystra over there along with several servitor deities who spend the last century trying to "nurse her back to health". Or it might be that its somehow Mystra I that took over when Cyric attacked Mystra II. The truth behind it doesn't need to be solid concrete yet.
IIRC, Ed said that the current Mystra (Mystra the Third) is like a combination of Mystra I and Mystra II (like, the weakened Mystra II consumed all the memories of Mystra I that were stored in the Weave to survive, and was reborn as a new form of Mystra)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, in these areas, the weave starts to recover, and its due to the belief in the gods. As belief in the gods begins to spread in Abeir as well, this weave begins to take root. By the end of the century however, I'm not seeing a full fledged weave in Abeir.... but maybe enough people in other areas left behind have taken up worship of these transferred gods that SOME of the gods are able to leave a small portion of themselves there, get some faith energy, and thrive.
Your idea assumes people in Abeir will automatically begin to believe in gods just because a few Torilians did some magic tricks of faith. And if that didn't happened in Toril—the land where gods were commonplace and stuff—(as of 1479, the only region in Laerakond where gods were worshiped was the Windrise Ports—so a few cities—, and only as cults not full blown religions), I don't see how religions can have been founded in Abeir, the lands where gods were some novelty from only a hundred years before
There will be small cults to be sure, made up by those surviving Torilians and a few Abeirans that got conviced, but thriving or organized religions? It would be illogical. I doubt the gods will have gained a significant power from those cults. Sure, they didn't languished or died, but neither were powers to be reckoned with in Abeir.
There is also the fact that they were in the house of their enemies... if the gods feared beings like Entropy or Rorn (just individual primordials), well... those gods in Abeir needed to be really careful, because they were in the wrong neighborhood. I don't see starting religions as something different to paint big bulleyes—with neon lights—on their foreheads.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ubtao is Qotal, which implies his family/pantheon is also Primordials.
This is worse. I don't see the primordials having love for the guy who betrayed them in the Dawn War...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, while you see these red wizards as weak and ruined, I see them as "taking a punch" and then adjusting quickly... because of all the human wizards of current day, I think the red wizards adjust to changes very quickly.
I don't see them as weak, just a powerless. They adapt quicky, yes, in world were magic is granted. In Abeir, magic is not granted (or, as Markustay said, is not granted by those spoiled by the Weave).
First of all were the Wailing Years. Those years were "no magic", because of the Spellplague. Magic returned in 1395. Without a Weave, in Abeir may have take more time to return.
Second, is the fact that the Spellplague did kill or made mad nearly all spellcasters. It has to have affected most of those red wizards as well. So, the surviving red wizards capable of using magic were few.
Third, even as magic returned, spellcasters of Toril had to relearn how to use magic, because their older formulas (the vancian magic) didn't worked anymore. And they had the Weave (damaged and all, but somehow still functional). That's why warlocks became a thing in the Realms (lorewise): many preferred to make pacts than to reinvent and then re-learn the whole theory of magic. The War Wizards of Cormyr began to train as Purple Dragons becuase they were useless as mages (this eventually did rise to a school of swordmages).
For the spellcasters in Abeir will have been even harder to regain their magic.
Now, I'm not saying that our idea is rubbish. Just that, is very difficult to reconcile it with canon.
However, I can see other ways for those Red Wizards to survive. They may have become something like the Mages of Saruun (Nentir Vale mages): mages that are also merchants. I can see them surviving by offering their services to dragons instead of fighting them. And there will be many swordmages in their ranks.
EDIT: I also like Aldrick idea of Red Wizard artificers.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
latest AMA - that there IS a Weave. The rest of what you said matches up though.
He says that there is a "Weave", but isn't the Weave. There is something that someone from Toril will say "this is the Weave", but what is seems, this "Weave" of Abeir is something different to the Weave of Toril.
We also have to take into account that there is a published novel that specifically says that there isn't a Weave in Abeir (The Devil You Know). IIRC, Ed is the second level of canon priority. So, as I understand it, what Ed says cannot contradict established canon.
So, the only solution here is that the "Weave" of Abeir is not technically a Weave, but another kind of arcane source (maybe a gestalt magical energy pool, a la Eberron?). But, from the point of view of a Torilian, it will be a Weave.
When I asked Erin about it, she said this (I hope it helps).
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
4. In The Devil You Know, Caysis says that a person cannot use magic on Abeir, because there is no Weave. This is confirmed by Farideh and Ilstan being unable to use their spells while on Verthishai Loech Ternesh. However, the FRCG talks about spells in ancient Abeir (such as that sentient magic that made the dwarves of Durnlynbold/Raurokh flee from their homes).
My doubt is: how magic works on Abeir? There were no wizards, warlocks or divine casters, but there were sorcerers? That can explain that living spell, and also, dragons are somehow innate casters.
That's all. Thanks in advance.
That is the gist. There are no gods, and so there is no Mystra, and so there is no Weave, per se. The plane is largely sealed from the Hells (although this may be only since Asmodeus became a god). All magic in Abeir has to account for that. Which means all the interesting wild cases probably have lots of room to grow! And lots of spaces for new kinds of magic ideas!
The Dawn Titans had magic, and so I like the idea of Dawn Titan artifacts and remnants being magic sources. Dragons too. If it's self-contained, self-generating, then I think it's fair.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When Elminster went to the world of the Saurials (and I STILL think that was abeir!)
Do you remember that world from Dragonlance that had some uber dragons... I believe that was Abeir, xDD
I mean it. The dragons of Abeir were the steeds of the primordials. Those kinds of dragons just need to be more powerful than normal ones.
I can see on this piece, we're going to have disagreements. My concepts for Abeir basically revolve around various godly domains that were connected to Toril's world tree basically "disconnecting" from Toril as a result of the spellplague and he moving of lands and the godly domains "reconnect" to Abeir instead (which previously had no such domains as well as no access to the abyss). Maybe these godly domains did exactly like the abyss did and somehow transferred themselves from the outer planes to connect into the elemental chaos. Maybe they somehow spawned an alternate astral plane for Abeir. Maybe even that's what Abeir's steelsky IS is an "alternate" astral plane, and if you actually fly up to it, you can enter it if you know how.
If one can accept this basic concept, then a lot of other things can fall into place. I get that the religions won't take off like hotcakes in the surrounding regions, but the seeds may grow (maybe not in time to be useful for our campaigns, but I also don't see a lot of people planning to use Abeir itself... mostly they want to figure out how it all affected Toril). I also get that 100 years is a blink in the eyes of the primordials, and it may take another 500 to a thousand years before they start waking up again if they truly went to sleep.
I get that Erin had one guy (a very shady fiendish figure who wasn't from Abeir mind you, so his knowledge is questionable) who told them that magic wasn't working in Abeir. However, he didn't necessarily travel the whole world and his knowledge may be localized to this one area (which may be magic dead for a myriad of reasons).
So, the question, as it often comes down to with canon, is just HOW canon is it... how valid is the resource telling you things... a lot of what Toril knows of Abeir is from pre-spellplague... and they're freaking guessing because they didn't even know Abeir existed (and vice versa). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 18:10:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can see on this piece, we're going to have disagreements.
I don't see it as a source of disagreement. I do like your idea of the Tharchs. However, I see that it strays too much from what is being established in canon.
And while is true that maybe nobody will be using Abeir, there are a few premises that are still in place in current canon:
1. Abeir is a no-gods land (and this is more true now than ever, thanks to Ao rewriting the Tablets of Fate).
2. Magic is harder to work in Abeir than in Toril.
3. Abeir is a harsh land dominated by dragons and primordials. For humanocentric nations, we already have plenty of those in Toril.
If we can somehow develop your Tharchs without invalidating those premises, the idea would be canon-friendly, making it useful for more than just one "world-state".
EDIT: Mind, there is an easy solution to this. You can work on your idea as you conceived it for your campaign, but provide an "alternative point of view" for those who want to work as close possible to canon. Like a mini-toolbox of ideas or something like that. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Jul 2017 19:11:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 19:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can see on this piece, we're going to have disagreements.
I don't see it as a source of disagreement. I do like your idea of the Tharchs. However, I see that it strays too much from what is being established in canon.
And while is true that maybe nobody will be using Abeir, there are a few premises that are still in place in current canon:
1. Abeir is a no-gods land (and this is more true now than ever, thanks to Ao rewriting the Tablets of Fate).
2. Magic is harder to work in Abeir than in Toril.
3. Abeir is a harsh land dominated by dragons and primordials. For humanocentric nations, we already have plenty of those in Toril.
If we can somehow develop your Tharchs without invalidating those premises, the idea would be canon-friendly, making it useful for more than just one "world-state".
EDIT: Mind, there is an easy solution to this. You can work on your idea as you conceived it for your campaign, but provide an "alternative point of view" for those who want to work as close possible to canon. Like a mini-toolbox of ideas or something like that.
Everything quoted as canon is pre-spellplague except for the one tidbit where Erin sent people over. We've just established some basic concepts like the world of Abeir may have just been devastated or changed by things transferring. We sure as heck know Toril was. So, the world may have been ruled by dragons before... and maybe it isn't anymore. Maybe just like how a comet hitting earth killed off the big lizards here, maybe that just happened there (in a different way though... I'd hate to blot out the sun... or maybe I wouldn't and that's why Lathander went over, to create a low orbit sun within the atmosphere).
The reason why I want to make these changes is simple... everything in Abeir that we hear just points to anyone that transferred over gets oppressed. Its boring. At least with some other options, like the gods were over there (fearing for their lives) and trying desperately to protect their people. You could also have the dragon lords come in and the people fight back... maybe some win.. maybe some don't... For instance, I'm taking the areas around the serpent kingdoms and opening them up for non-humans to have punted the human cultures that were there and then get transferred over to Toril when the land moves back. A portion of the humans that were there fled over to where Fort Flame/Balduran Bay is.
But maybe even in these other areas, while there are human communities that are surviving, maybe they aren't thriving. For instance, up in Anchorome, there's the lands of the insect men and the Poscadar elves. Maybe those insect men really took off because they had some spellweavers amongst them, and maybe they even enslaved some Abeirans (which ones... don't know... dragonborn, genasi, saurials, lizard folk, something else).
All of this by simply allowing that magic wasn't necessarily totally broken and that some gods went over to protect their people (which we kind of see, with Gilgeam showing up, and some possibility that the Mulhorandi may have had their own deities in some form). The gods that were there may even have had to go over in a form like manifestations were in Unther/Mulhorand (and thus, really had to fear those primordials). I had actually been playing with this idea in mind for the most part (i.e. the gods being physical entities that maybe were holed up in specific places... maybe not even known where these places were by their worshippers). If they were there as manifestations, they would be free to act as a separate entity than their full godly self in Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 20:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Everything quoted as canon is pre-spellplague except for the one tidbit where Erin sent people over. We've just established some basic concepts like the world of Abeir may have just been devastated or changed by things transferring. We sure as heck know Toril was. So, the world may have been ruled by dragons before... and maybe it isn't anymore. Maybe just like how a comet hitting earth killed off the big lizards here, maybe that just happened there (in a different way though... I'd hate to blot out the sun... or maybe I wouldn't and that's why Lathander went over, to create a low orbit sun within the atmosphere).
Yes and not. As per The Devil You Know, we have the following of current Abeir:
1. Shyr is still dominated by genasi and Karshimis (the whole Gilgeam's return and rebellion revolves around this).
2. Dragons are still the "Tyrants" and vayemniri (dragonborn) are still either their slaves or rebel against them (as per what Gilgeam, Namshita and Somni tell to Dahl Peredur). So, this means dragons are still rulers of their empires near Shyr.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The reason why I want to make these changes is simple... everything in Abeir that we hear just points to anyone that transferred over gets oppressed. Its boring.
This is the same thing I think about Unther and Mulhorand, xD A land of slavery and death. Of oppression and devolved civilizations. Of yet another humanocentric powers, but these ones dark and optionless. Yet many fans of the Realms will go mad if you try to change the Old Empires into better lands. Heck, they already did it in 4e.
I can find here many people who was really happy when High Imaskar (a land of progress, of no oppression, of civilization, of options) was destroyed by a bunch of people who love being enslaved and brutalized (the Mulhorandi).* And I can bet my lunch of today (napolitan pizza) that many would have been even more happy if Tymanther (another place of freedom, civilization and options) had disappeared in the Sundering as well, replaced by an even more oppressive land (Unther). Heck, the guys of WotC had to bring Unther back because of that.
So, I don't see a problem with Abeir being a brutal land of oppression and no gods. Is the "core" of its being. The land of "darkness" opposed to the land of "light" that is Toril. Is the land of hard guys who fight oppression. Or oppress others. True heroes and villains, compared to those spoiled ones of Toril (I can compare living in Abeir with living in Athas).
As I said, I like your idea of the Tharchs. Is just that to explain why it works, we will have to ignore a lot of canon, change the "core idea" of Abeir, and install yet another humanocentric power in the Realms. It can work, and it has a lot of potential (even I see its potential, and I don't like the idea of making a humanocentric nation in Abeir—there are lots of those in Toril already). Just I'm being childish here.
*The SCAG says that the current Mulhorandi God-Kings have abolished slavery, yeah. That makes no sense reading the Old Empires sourcebook, or the 3rd Campaign Setting. Mulhorandi see slavery a good thing, they are no better than Tevinter.
But at least hints that New Mulhorand has possibilities... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Jul 2017 20:56:10 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 21:53:38
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I agree that abolishing slavery in Mulhorand was a mistake, but more on that in a moment...
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Like I said previously, this is a simple problem to solve. Just give the Red Wizards an Imaskari artifact that allows them to travel to a demi-plane. They will no longer be on Abeir and thus could use magic normally. They can build the capital city of their empire in this plane, and connect it to other places--including Toril.
It is the easiest solution to the problem. Magic items still work on Abeir, so they can craft magical items to help fight the primordials and dragons. Their city becomes a sanctuary for those fleeing the oppression of the primordials and dragons, and in turn, this gives them more power and influence. Red Wizards perfecting the art of magical item creation is not out of character, considering 3rd Edition turned them into Thaymart, and that was pretty much the role they played with the enclaves.
====
Anyway, back to my point with Mulhorand and slavery. I always saw things a bit differently. There is a strong bias that slavery = evil. However, I would argue that it depends on the type of slavery and how the slaves are treated. In many ways, being a slave can be indistinguishable from being a serf or a peasant, literally tied to the land and forced to work for the lord.
I always viewed Mulan societies as unequal but fairly just places--maybe even better places to live, depending on who you were than other places in the world. The Mulan viewed themselves as this sort of pinnacle of humanity, decadent and civilized. Other peoples, in their eye, tended to be backward unlettered savages. The Mulan peoples are the bringers of enlightenment, the people who uplift the barbarians of this land so that they may know culture, and the proper way to live. Of course, they will never *BE* Mulan, after all--some things are too deeply inbred in the lesser peoples--but they can still strive to better themselves and they should do so. The Gods choose as they will, and the Gods choose some to rule and others to serve. They have just chosen the Mulan people to rule, as evidenced by the favor they showed to them by appearing in the flesh.
It's this sort of mentality to permeates Mulan cultures. It's a sort of culture that has this whole Divine Right + Manifest Destiny + Colonial Power feel to it. So, it is not like they are engaging in chattel slavery, where the slaves are actively abused and harmed. In fact, in Mulhorand, the slaves were owned by the good aligned cults. Slaves are given opportunities to advance themselves and their families through service, and many of them are even given some form of education or trade.
So, in a sort of irony, it could be possible for a slave in Mulhorand to rise to have more power and influence than a peasant in Cormyr. For example, if you serve well, show some sort of natural aptitude for something, you could find yourself being placed into the service of a powerful family. Serving that family well grants additional power and prestige, and if you are speaking and acting on their behalf, you are basically the equivalent of a noble in another land. Are you "free?" No, but loyal service is rewarded, and natural talents and developing useful skills are highly valued. So, it wouldn't be weird in Mulhorand to see decadent, powerful, wealthy slaves overseeing entire estates while overseeing other slaves. Meaning that it would basically be a situation where a slave is "owning" slaves (although they would really belong to his Mulan masters--which really belong to the cults, lol).
Anyway, that was how I extrapolated things and played out Mulhorand. I mean, it's good aligned churches owning slaves. They -HAVE- to have a different concept of freedom and individual rights culturally in order to maintain their goodness.
EDIT: I do not want to paint the life of the average slave of the Mulan as glamorous or anything like that--it is not. However, when we talk about the average slave in the Mulan cultures--especially Mulhorand--I think we should be thinking about things in the same context that we think about peasants and nobility in Cormyr. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 29 Jul 2017 22:13:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 22:14:13
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EDIT: This post should have been posted about three hours ago - I forgot to hit 'post' before I went out. So it is 'out of sequence' - my bad. 
I'm not saying to over-write canon, I'm just saying we can reinterpret the things we do know, especially if we use logic like I did above. You can't say "Abeir has no Weave', when Abeir is IN Realmspace (canon factoid) and ALL of Realmspace has the Weave permeating it (also a canon factoid). Its there - you just can't access it. Thus, for all intents and purposes (and to the viewpoint of everyone on both worlds) there is no Weave around Abeir... but there is.
Something (akin to the Godwall?) is 'blocking' the energy of The Weave from getting through. Whatever 'wavelength' Abeir is sitting at on the quantum spectrum, that 'frequency' in banned. However, magic items made with the Weave still work, which means you can bring a 'piece of the Weave' with you. Same thing with gates/Portals as I said above - if the Gate opens, that 'doorway' itself is a part of Weave magic... that is appearing in Abeir.
Here's my problem with the whole thing. Abeir and Toril overlap. I used to toy with the possibility that its actually in the same orbit, but on the exact opposite side of the sun (a fairly common trope). It would have some sort of 'force field' around it, that lets light in but its diffused (the 'silver sky'), but on the other side its completely BLACK. Thus, from thew outside, you'd have to practically bump into it to find it. I was rather found of that theory.
Buuuuut... we've been told numerous times now that its in the same 'space', just 'out of sync' with Toril. And even though Abeir is inside Realmspace where the Weave permeates everywhere, there is no Weave (access) and no magic on Abeir. A Torillian caster going there - note I do not say 'journeying' - finds themselves devoid of magic. YET, if a Torillian caster goes just about anywhere else in the universe - trillions upon trillions of places the Weave does not touch at all - they still have their magic, usually at full capacity.
So how the heck is any of that possible? The only way any of that works is if we said The Weave is EVERYWHERE in the muliverse itself, and that makes no sense, and goes against lots of other canon. That means Torillian mages do NOT need the Weave at all (its all just a big lie), which means they should be able to 'do magic' on Abeir... which is in Realmspace... with the Weave.
And if we try to blame it all on 'Magic Dead Zones' (and Abeir apparently being a HUGE one), then we have this logic: The only place 'Magic dead Zones' exist is inside Realmspace... where the Weave is. Thus, wherever the Weave ISN'T (the entirety of the rest of the universe), Mages do not have these problems. There are NO 'Magic Dead Zones'. They only exist where the weave exists.
Which can only lead me to one conclusion - the Weave doesn't enhance magic, it limits and/or prohibits it. Without one, magic works just fine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jul 2017 22:17:59 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 22:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Like I said previously, this is a simple problem to solve. Just give the Red Wizards an Imaskari artifact that allows them to travel to a demi-plane. They will no longer be on Abeir and thus could use magic normally. They can build the capital city of their empire in this plane, and connect it to other places--including Toril.
It is the easiest solution to the problem. Magic items still work on Abeir, so they can craft magical items to help fight the primordials and dragons. Their city becomes a sanctuary for those fleeing the oppression of the primordials and dragons, and in turn, this gives them more power and influence. Red Wizards perfecting the art of magical item creation is not out of character, considering 3rd Edition turned them into Thaymart, and that was pretty much the role they played with the enclaves.
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I don't see a problem with the Tharchs as sleyvas propose them. I guess, I don't want to fully accept his idea because it will make a new power of humans in Abeir. Its my pet peeve in action.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Anyway, back to my point with Mulhorand and slavery.
This is why I compare Mulhorand with the Tevinter Imperium of Dragon Age lore. They see slavery in the same light, and some people even sell themselves to slavery in Tevinter, because is better than to live as poor in other lands. Yet, as one of the protagonists of the games says:
"You would think that is better for me to be a slave than a free person?"
Its a good dichotomy of black vs grey, instead of black vs white.
But that only redeems Mulhorand, not Unther... while I can live with Mulhorand (even 3e Mulhorand) back, I see Unther as filling up the place other, not stereotypical evil nation (there are many there already... Thay, for instance) could have used better.
Though, I can understand people who likes the place. I do like Abeir as an expy of Athas in the Realms. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Jul 2017 22:27:58 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2017 : 22:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: This post should have been posted about three hours ago - I forgot to hit 'post' before I went out. So it is 'out of sequence' - my bad.
I'm not saying to over-write canon, I'm just saying we can reinterpret the things we do know, especially if we use logic like I did above. You can't say "Abeir has no Weave', when Abeir is IN Realmspace (canon factoid) and ALL of Realmspace has the Weave permeating it (also a canon factoid). Its there - you just can't access it. Thus,for all intents and purposes (and to the viewpoint of everyone on both worlds) there is no Weave around Abeir... but there is.
Something (akin to the Godwall?) is 'blocking' the energy of The Weave from getting through. Whatever 'wavelength' Abeir is sitting at on the quantum spectrum, that 'frequency' in banned. However, magic items made with the Weave still work, which means you can bring a 'piece of the Weave' with you. Same thing with gates/Portals as I said above - if the Gate opens, that 'doorway' itself is a part of Weave magic... that is appearing in Abeir.
Here's my problem with the whole thing. Abeir and Toril overlap. I used to toy with the possibility that its actually in the same orbit, but on the exact opposite side of the sun (a fairly common trope). It would have some sort of 'force field' around it, that lets light in but its diffused (the 'silver sky'), but on the other side its completely BLACK. Thus, from thew outside, you'd have to practically bump into it to find it. I was rather found of that theory.
Buuuuut... we've been told numerous times now that its in the same 'space', just 'out of sync' with Toril. And even though Abeir is inside Realmspace where the Weave permeates everywhere, there is no Weave (access) and no magic on Abeir. A Torillian caster going there - note I do not say 'journeying' - finds themselves devoid of magic. YET, if a Torillian caster goes just about anywhere else in the universe - trillions upon trillions of places the Weave does not touch at all - they still have their magic, usually at full capacity.
So how the heck is any of that possible? The only way any of that works is if we said The Weave is EVERYWHERE in the muliverse itself, and that makes no sense, and goes against lots of other canon. That means Torillian mages do NOT need the Weave at all (its all just a big lie), which means they should be able to 'do magic' on Abeir... which is in Realmspace... with the Weave.
And if we try to blame it all on 'Magic Dead Zones' (and Abeir apparently being a HUGE one), then we have this logic: The only place 'Magic dead Zones' exist is inside Realmspace... where the Weave is. Thus, wherever the Weave ISN'T (the entirety of the rest of the universe), Mages do not have these problems. There are NO 'Magic Dead Zones'. They only exist where the weave exists.
Which can only lead me to one conclusion - the Weave doesn't enhance magic, it limits and/or prohibits it. Without one, magic works just fine.
Realmspace is unique in the fact that raw magic cannot be accessed directly. I think there is a Weave on Abeir, but it is the same Weave as on Toril, it is just out of sync because Abeir is out of sync. Therefore, accessing magic on Abeir is intensely difficult--like a radio station with lots of static.
A Weave, or something akin to it, is necessary in order to access raw magic in order to perform magic in Realmspace. Only deities or similar beings (such as fiends) can grant this power. No deities on Abeir means that none of those things is possible, magic is effectively locked away.
Magic items and supernatural abilities are able to "tune into" the Weave, which is out of sync, and thus still function properly. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 02:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Everything quoted as canon is pre-spellplague except for the one tidbit where Erin sent people over. We've just established some basic concepts like the world of Abeir may have just been devastated or changed by things transferring. We sure as heck know Toril was. So, the world may have been ruled by dragons before... and maybe it isn't anymore. Maybe just like how a comet hitting earth killed off the big lizards here, maybe that just happened there (in a different way though... I'd hate to blot out the sun... or maybe I wouldn't and that's why Lathander went over, to create a low orbit sun within the atmosphere).
Yes and not. As per The Devil You Know, we have the following of current Abeir:
1. Shyr is still dominated by genasi and Karshimis (the whole Gilgeam's return and rebellion revolves around this).
2. Dragons are still the "Tyrants" and vayemniri (dragonborn) are still either their slaves or rebel against them (as per what Gilgeam, Namshita and Somni tell to Dahl Peredur). So, this means dragons are still rulers of their empires near Shyr.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The reason why I want to make these changes is simple... everything in Abeir that we hear just points to anyone that transferred over gets oppressed. Its boring.
This is the same thing I think about Unther and Mulhorand, xD A land of slavery and death. Of oppression and devolved civilizations. Of yet another humanocentric powers, but these ones dark and optionless. Yet many fans of the Realms will go mad if you try to change the Old Empires into better lands. Heck, they already did it in 4e.
I can find here many people who was really happy when High Imaskar (a land of progress, of no oppression, of civilization, of options) was destroyed by a bunch of people who love being enslaved and brutalized (the Mulhorandi).* And I can bet my lunch of today (napolitan pizza) that many would have been even more happy if Tymanther (another place of freedom, civilization and options) had disappeared in the Sundering as well, replaced by an even more oppressive land (Unther). Heck, the guys of WotC had to bring Unther back because of that.
So, I don't see a problem with Abeir being a brutal land of oppression and no gods. Is the "core" of its being. The land of "darkness" opposed to the land of "light" that is Toril. Is the land of hard guys who fight oppression. Or oppress others. True heroes and villains, compared to those spoiled ones of Toril (I can compare living in Abeir with living in Athas).
As I said, I like your idea of the Tharchs. Is just that to explain why it works, we will have to ignore a lot of canon, change the "core idea" of Abeir, and install yet another humanocentric power in the Realms. It can work, and it has a lot of potential (even I see its potential, and I don't like the idea of making a humanocentric nation in Abeir—there are lots of those in Toril already). Just I'm being childish here.
*The SCAG says that the current Mulhorandi God-Kings have abolished slavery, yeah. That makes no sense reading the Old Empires sourcebook, or the 3rd Campaign Setting. Mulhorandi see slavery a good thing, they are no better than Tevinter.
But at least hints that New Mulhorand has possibilities...
Ok, good point on the part where we may have more than just Caisys telling us there's no wizardry. We have the Untherites (though I'm not sure that they ever said it, but it would have likely been brought up). In fact, is it ever outright said that Gilgeam's priests don't cast spells. I know that they made it out like he was using an amulet to cast the healing spell on the person with Dahl. I'm now remembering why I got a little p.o.'d in reading Erin's last book. Loved the story. Hated the implications as a result. Same way I felt about the Thayan Civil War trilogy.
Note, the amulet to cast divine spells thing for the priests, that WOULD work with the rules I said I wanted to enforce for Abeir (i.e. no clerics, only people using the Priestess: Ancient world Divine Class from DM's Guild) wherein they need to sacrifice for their divine magic. It also enforces the need for a holy symbol or altar to worship at to renew your spell slots. So, basically you can't just renew your bigger slots in the field unless you visit a holy site.
Maybe the same could happen in Abeir with wizardry, as in you can't use an arcane focus in place of the actual material components, and maybe you need the focus as well. Or perhaps their arcane focus has to be something from something that's magical. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 03:37:46
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| Well, Gilgeam healing Mira's ankle was a plot point in the novel. Though he used a magic talisman to heal her, his magic was "undeniable divine". So, he can produce divine magic, yet he needed a talisman to do it (a talisman he stoled from the "dream" giants). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 13:58:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, Gilgeam healing Mira's ankle was a plot point in the novel. Though he used a magic talisman to heal her, his magic was "undeniable divine". So, he can produce divine magic, yet he needed a talisman to do it (a talisman he stoled from the "dream" giants).
OHHHHH, I didn't catch THAT piece (talisman from the "dream" giants), and actually maybe we can dovetail that into something useful that fulfills my storyline a little.
So, one of the big things I'm doing (even before I read Erin's novels and realized dream magic would be big there), is I'm having the spellcasters of the Toril in their dreams cast a kind of cooperative magic. They didn't INTEND to do it, but they are. The first one makes the look of the moon look like it did on Toril (now the question some may ask ask here.... is that the moon or Leira's illusion... I don't intend to answer, and most of the people on the surface of Toril don't know about the illusion). The second dream magic causes a sun deity to appear to be "interacting" with the sun in ways that were only theoretically spoken of on Toril (for instance, Re pulling the sun behind him). All the mortal spellcasters see these other groups at work (picture orderly Thayans, but through some mist they see Mazticans studiously working together with pluma magic, hishna magic, totem magic for the Azuposi in the City of Gold etc...). In fact, over in Maztica/Anchorome, their magic may be little affected since it is item based. Anyway, perhaps when these spellcasters awake, they have an arcane focus tied to the god who most closely fits their form of magic (for instance, Talos/Malyk for evokers, Velsharoon for necromancers, Leira for illusionists, Savras for diviners, Auppenser for enchanters (as a form of mind control magic), Karsus for transmuters, and the red knight (Sifya?) might even work for abjurers since abjuration is about planning. That leaves conjurers, and I'm pretty certain I can find a match up there (Gargauth COULD fit here actually). Other pantheons, such as the Mulhorandi may use different gods (Thoth, Set, Isis). For other spellcasting classes (like bards) there could be options like Finder.
So, maybe all spellcasters have to perform some form of dream magic to gain an arcane focus, and if they lose it they're screwed. Initially the Torilians get theirs, but as the generations progress, they have to study up on this dream magic (which I was working towards anyway). This fits in quite well with my belief idea as well... believing in dreams. Hell, maybe the Torilians actually begin to understand it via studying the basis behind pluma, hishna, and totem magic of the Mazticans and Azuposi.
This is only after Velsharoon is freed from his phylactery, and I'm basically playing with the idea that the manifestations of the gods of magic are actually one of the main driving forces on Abeir. One of the main ones is Leira in all this, because maybe she (and maybe Mask) are hiding their presence from the sleeping primordials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 15:02:22
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Noting, in the above, the intent here would be for the gods that have gone to Abeir to be requiring their priests to use idols and for arcane spellcasters to have to use special arcane focus' they gain through dream interactions with deities. In the above, other gods may work for different people (i.e. Talos may work for many evokers, but some may choose one of the elemental lords... some may choose Helm for abjuration, etc... and basically all of these gods are maybe acting in Abeir as a channel to the weakened Mystra's weave that still works through transferred dweomerheart but feeding from the interaction themselves... Mortals don't truly understand it, BUT it does make them question the all powerful nature of Mystra that they previously assumed... and its not until later in the century that people actually start dreaming of Mystra).
I have a list of the Faerunian gods that I think transferred over (some were already there, but not actively promoting worship, such as the elemental lords). Note, in the below list, I put some names in question marks. This is because I'm leaving it open as to who was actually answering in that deities name. For instance, did Tyr and Helm really die? I have a Metahel Pantheon with a Hemdahl and a Anachtar that are very similar, as well as a Sifya who is similar to the red knight, and a Frethander who is similar to Lathander, a Thoros who is somewhat similar to Talos, and an Eldunna that's similar to Eldath.
Akadi, Bane (?), Bhaal, Deneir, Eldath, Finder Wyvernspur, Gargauth, Grumbar, Helm (?), Istishia, Karsus, Kossuth, Lathander(?), Leira, Nobanion, Mask, Mystra (initially, her presence was faint in Abeir, but over the century she regained her strength, much sooner than she appeared back in Toril), Savras, Selune, Sharess (?) , Talos, The Red Knight (?), Tyr (?), and Velsharoon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2017 : 15:37:53
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There is a tribe of "dream" giants (cloud giants from Abeir*) that are transferred from Abeir to Toril in the Sundering 2.0. They have really powerful magic items. The item that Gilgeam gave to Graz'zt in exchange for the demon army was one of theirs. Those items have to do with "dream" magic. So, yeah, dream magic seems to be the magic of Abeir (or at least, the easy one).
*I guess Erin include them in the novels to connect the novel to the current metaplot at the moment, Storm's King Thunder, because beyond explaining stuff that is unrelated to the plot (the dream magic stuff, mainly), those giants have nothing do in the plot... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 18:11:32
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First, I'm thinking there should be a MAJOR connection between Osse and Abeir. Maybe that large continent was never Osse (we have just assumed it was, just because of a single character). But what if 'Osse' has really been a place on Abeir? Maybe Gunggari has really been the first known (to us) example of an Abeiran who traveled to Toril? It would really help tie old lore to the new.
Second, I had some homebrew lore regarding how the Vedic pantheon made it into Toril (a few of those gods are mentioned being in the Malatra region of kara-Tur, in the K-T boxed set). Since they were unable to travel there by normal methods (some of their faithful got stuck in the Realms - I forget how I spun that part), they had to do so through Dreams. I'm sure I can find what I wrote (way back when) if I did a search here at the 'Keep. Anyhow, my whole thought-process there was that the Plane of Dreams was one of the few even Overgods could not block or control. Thus, the Malatrans 'dreamed' their gods into existence. Looking back now, with all thats past since I theorized all that, I'd say its an even better fit now than before.
And I recall people really dug my Arrow of Endless Death. 
Hopefully I posted some of that here, and not all of it on the WotC forums.*
So yeah, it could work the same way for magic (Divine or Arcane) - the only way to access them, or even 'the Weave', is through dreams. Not a great connection - rather tenuous and weak at best - but at least its some sort of connection. As for needing an item - that sounds like totemic magic to me. Like a native-American's 'Medicine Bag'. Traditionally, such 'Totems' (fetishes, whatever) are custom-made for each person, so they can access 'the spirit-world' (the only place they can get magic from). However, with D&D, etc., in mind, there could be more powerful (artifact/relic?) items that could be used by anyone. You also usually get a 'spirit guide', which is normally an animal, but can be some type of 'nature spirit' (fey? elemental?), or even an ancestor, depending on the exact culture. In most case, 'the magic' works as it does in Zakhara - your spirit-guide fetches the spell you need. Its a one-at-a-time type of thing.
And yes, I realize I just 'boiled down' thousands of different tribal cultures and traditions in a few generic sentences, but HEY, this is D&D and we have to wrap rules around stuff.
*EDIT:
Nope, couldn't find any of it. {sigh}
And the wotC forums are long gone. I only remember a couple of details. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jul 2017 18:21:24 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 18:52:21
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| You can always search for your post in Secrets of the Archmages. searching there is tricky, though. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 19:03:20
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Hey! The Kara-Tur redux thread is there! YAY!!!
There was so much good in that thread, and the Utter East one. The stuff I am looking for is in one of those two.
thanks for the link! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2017 : 19:53:21
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I found that place searching for Nentir Vale stuff. They guy who compiled that info did a great job. He almost saved all (if not all) of what it was in the WotC forums.
But, this bring about another... obstacle for the Tharchs to overcome (yet another, yeahs). We have forgotten why Abeir is so... wrong, compared to Toril. Because is cthulhu-land! Yeah, beyond Shyr and Laerakond, Abeir was a world of abominations, aboleths, Cthulhu, and those... You have to read novels such as the ones from the Abolethic Sovereignty series or Stardeep to get all the lore... but this is mentioned in Stardeep:
quote:
"Would have surprised me if you had." Kiril scrubbed away the wetness on her cheeks. "The Cerulean Sign is a rune of power created when things were not as they are today. Before men, or even elves walked the world, when the continents were divided differently than now, entities strange and powerful fought. When the future was a toss-up between sanity and abomination. [...] The Cerulean Sign was forged to oppose creatures that oozed down from mad realms to colonize Abeir-Toril. To a large extent, those long-vanished defenders of the virgin world succeeded. Abominations, both godlike and inconsequential, were pushed back. Abeir was forgotten. Mortal races eventually inherited the earth."
Meaning that potentially Cthulhu and friends are still living in Abeir (as it proved by the fact that Xxiphu—the kingdom-city of the Abolethic Sovereignty, the first aboleth of the Realms—was on Abeir before the Spellplague, according to the Neverwinter Campaign Setting [p.90]). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Jul 2017 20:24:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 01:22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First, I'm thinking there should be a MAJOR connection between Osse and Abeir. Maybe that large continent was never Osse (we have just assumed it was, just because of a single character). But what if 'Osse' has really been a place on Abeir? Maybe Gunggari has really been the first known (to us) example of an Abeiran who traveled to Toril? It would really help tie old lore to the new.
Second, I had some homebrew lore regarding how the Vedic pantheon made it into Toril (a few of those gods are mentioned being in the Malatra region of kara-Tur, in the K-T boxed set). Since they were unable to travel there by normal methods (some of their faithful got stuck in the Realms - I forget how I spun that part), they had to do so through Dreams. I'm sure I can find what I wrote (way back when) if I did a search here at the 'Keep. Anyhow, my whole thought-process there was that the Plane of Dreams was one of the few even Overgods could not block or control. Thus, the Malatrans 'dreamed' their gods into existence. Looking back now, with all thats past since I theorized all that, I'd say its an even better fit now than before.
And I recall people really dug my Arrow of Endless Death.
Hopefully I posted some of that here, and not all of it on the WotC forums.*
So yeah, it could work the same way for magic (Divine or Arcane) - the only way to access them, or even 'the Weave', is through dreams. Not a great connection - rather tenuous and weak at best - but at least its some sort of connection. As for needing an item - that sounds like totemic magic to me. Like a native-American's 'Medicine Bag'. Traditionally, such 'Totems' (fetishes, whatever) are custom-made for each person, so they can access 'the spirit-world' (the only place they can get magic from). However, with D&D, etc., in mind, there could be more powerful (artifact/relic?) items that could be used by anyone. You also usually get a 'spirit guide', which is normally an animal, but can be some type of 'nature spirit' (fey? elemental?), or even an ancestor, depending on the exact culture. In most case, 'the magic' works as it does in Zakhara - your spirit-guide fetches the spell you need. Its a one-at-a-time type of thing.
And yes, I realize I just 'boiled down' thousands of different tribal cultures and traditions in a few generic sentences, but HEY, this is D&D and we have to wrap rules around stuff.
*EDIT:
Nope, couldn't find any of it. {sigh}
And the wotC forums are long gone. I only remember a couple of details.
Yeah, this is what I wrote up so far for the Tharch of Oslander Islands as an overview of Osse's history (which I'm very open to tweaking, as I'm not happy with it) and the actual Tharch itself. Your idea that Gunggari Ulmarra actually crossed the planar boundary between Abeir and Toril BEFORE the spellplague occurred isn't a bad one. It would of course mean that's what's over there now (or rather pre-spellplague) is not Osse but someplace else that no one ever developed.
Personally too, I don't know how much of Osse I'd want to have transfer over to Abeir. After all, we wouldn't have to transfer the whole continent. It didn't happen for Faerun, so it may have only been a portion. This is why I only detailed a handful of islands and a portion of the coastline of the actual continent... that way we could leave the vast portion of the continent maybe for others to do something with. It could possibly be interesting to have a portion have transferred, a century passed, and now they transfer back and create repercussions as a result.
BTW, one of the things I was very interested in having with Osse was a lot of jungle giants on the interior. We had joked at one point about how it sounded a little like Avatar's natives, and the more I think on it, that might not be bad. Especially throwing in the "dream magic" along with some kind of "mind bonding" and psionic talents.
Osse
The history of the people of Osse is a rich oral history filled with references to the dreamtime and contains numerous tales filled with fantastic “great spirits”, talking animals, and the ghosts of their ancestors. Just how many of these tales are true and how many simple allegories meant to teach children the ways to live their lives is exceptionally hard given that the storytellers themselves are often unaware of the truth of such things. There is in fact a belief amongst their people that through their storytelling certain facts can be changed about their world. They call this strange storytelling magic Alcheringa, and it is generally a long, ritualistic form of cooperative magic which often involves stressing the body with dancing, sweats, and hunger, while making the mind more malleable and open by fatigue, the smoking of various pipeweeds, and use of various alchemical extracts. The participants enter a state of almost wakeful dreaming, during which to outside viewers it is obvious that some kind of connection is established between their group minds based upon their interactions. For those outside these rituals, their antics can be entertaining, if not even somewhat comical to those who have no understanding of what is happening. The exact effects that are made upon the world by these rituals are hard to interpret, but there can be no doubting how much those involved believe that they have affected their world through their dreams. Thus, new stories are born, and since they may have changed the world in ways that the outsiders didn't see, they are true, but only to some.
However, many of the stories do share common backgrounds. For instance, many older Osse stories speak of three different eras. First there was the “Time of Great Dreaming” when their people were led by powerful shamans who called upon the power of the na'amnumoans, or powerful spirit beasts from the land of nightmares. Little is remembered from this time, other than the stories of great battles between gigantic opponents, and the stories of humans who descended into bestial forms.
Then suddenly there came the “Era of Stone Sky”, in which the sky suddenly changed from blue to a light stone-like gray and they found themselves in another land entirely. The very earth itself was known to fly in the sky, and apparently it had formed a great glowing, grey barrier which blocked out the sky. Even the clouds had changed, for thunderous skies were said to bring green and copper hued clouds. Luckily, the trappings of their civilization had transferred with them, and they were able to prosper for a time. Unfortunately, they also found that their magic did not work as it had during the time of great dreaming. Their dream shamans were no longer able to call upon the aid of the na'amnumoans.
However, it seemed that in this new land the spirits were more tied to the world around them, creating a special form of magic energy which they called incarnum. They learned of this magic by talking with the spirits, great and small, particularly Olorborem, the spirit of imagination and the life-giving clouds and rainbows. Slowly, spirit shamans and totemists, able to harness the power of spirits of the ancestors, animals, and plants to aid them. Some of these cultures grew strong in power through ritual sacrifice of their enemies and entrapping their spirits to serve them. It is whispered that for a time, they awakened intelligence within the beasts that surrounded them as well, and as a result many villages were known to live and work alongside these noble animals. Of course, the fact that even today talking thylacines, a form of marsupial wolf with tiger-like stripes; Ossean ursines, a small marsupial resembling a mixture of dog and bear particularly noted for the strength of its bite; marsupial lions, kangaroos, and small numbats number amongst most Osse villages lends credence to this story. It was even said that many humans took to taming giant hawks, falcons, and ospreys and forming villages on the great skystones.
Although this period of relative peace and prosperity lasted for a long time, the “Era of Stone Sky” also held a darker period, for the arrival of conquering dragons and dragonborn caught many villages unawares. The humans were taken away to serve as slaves or food for their dragon overlords, meanwhile periodic raids upon Osse tribes continued for millenia. The dragons generally avoided the skystone villages, as their dragonborn soldiers were unable to fly up to them without aid, and thus these societies began to draw more and more of their earthbound cousins to them. Eventually, the dragon overlords began to move onto Ossean soil, so that they could more easily raid for slaves and food. Soon, much of the northern and western coasts were filled with foreign colonies.
The turning point came when these humans of Osse led a small raid against one of the less powerful dragon overlords and captured over a dozen dragon eggs and more importantly, the spirits of hundreds of dragonborn which were absorbed into specially prepared totems. Using a variation on the ancient arts of dream magic and powerful incarnum, they were able to split the spirits within the dragon eggs and transform a willing human into a creature somewhat resembling dragonborn, but possessing wings and a tail. These gliding, dragonmen were near fearless and upon their death, many were known to explode with elemental energies. The humans of Osse, with the aid of many human slaves already within the draconic colonies, soon infiltrated several other dragon colonies and made off with over a hundred dragon eggs. However, based on knowledge gained from the human slaves, they also planted evidence to make the various overlords suspect their fellows rather than the primitive humans. By the time the dragons realized it was the humans who had turned against them, an army of thousands of these dragonmen had been created to serve the humans in their Skystone villages.
The fury of the dragons knew no bounds, and even though they could not easily transport their dragonborn soldiers to assault the Skystone villages, several dragons moved against each of the nearest tribe to them. They were not prepared for the dragonmen, many of whom dived down in suicide flights from the backs of giant hawks to rend and tear at reptilian wings, forcing their enemies to crash to earth. Many dragons were caught unawares when they simply bit into a dragonman, only to have them explode in their mouth. The devastation was amazing, but it further incited riots amongst the overlords' colonies, as dragonborn saw in the dragonmen a reflection of themselves opposing their masters. Within a short time, all dragons had been slain in Osse, and their holdings seized by their servants. A new friendship was forged between dragonborn and human, as many of the transformed humans bred with dragonborn.
Several centuries later, the age known as “The Return of Blue Sky” came when the sky suddenly turned back to blue and a sun, moon, and stars once again appeared. At the same time, the Skystone villages came crashing to earth, destroying much of the civilization which had begun to flourish once again. Their once friendly dragonborn neighbors blamed the humans for the changes which had occurred, for their once great cities had been destroyed by earthquakes generated as they settled into the new world. These dragonborn cultures sank into barbarism, many of them turning to hunting and eating humans as a means of survival, forcing many human tribes toward the eastern and southern coasts.
Portions of the continent had even slid into the sea, leaving strings of hundreds of small islands and dangerous underwater obstacles surrounding Osse's northern and western coast. Over time, these islands saw immigrants from the lands of Kara-Tur and the western edge of Zakhara, but most of these settlements were due to ships being run aground and unprepared for a long stay. Usually their inhabitants did not survive more than a decade due to lack of resources or dragonborn capturing them, but the larger islands along the eastern coast proved a more fertile environment.
Some of these immigrants managed to move inland, resulting in a blending of their cultures to a degree. The idea of alcheringa, or dream magic, has always been strong in Osse, and the art of tattoo magics in various forms is explored by many tribes. Many spirits of far off Kara-Tur have become accepted into their society, and spirit shamans, druids, and totemists are all relatively common. Giant wood or stone carved totem defenders, tied to local spirits of crabs, rams, koalas, kangaroos, kylacines, marsupial lions, emu, goanna, crocodiles, bunyips (an odd seal-shark hybrid able to come on land), and the strange diprotodon (a herbivorous marsupial mammal somewhat resembling an extremely large, pigeon-toed, bear with a giant nose), are a common site in many villages. Sorcerers are rare, but not unheard of like wizards or wu-jen, though they do tend to be segregated from their communities, often imposing self isolation after an accident due to lack of control of their powers. Some tribes have embraced a variety of pact magics, usually with nature spirits or even genies. However, some tribes favor darker powers which favor ritual sacrifice of sentient beings in return for power, and such tribes often favor cannibalism as well.
Though many had heard the stories of the “Era of Stone Sky”, many natives of Osse believed these stories to be simple embellishments meant to impress small children. The idea of floating stone cities and a sky of stone seemed a little too much of a stretch for the imagination. Then a century ago, the sky turned a metallic silver hue and the earthmotes rose. Overnight, the moon had changed in appearance, revealing two great seas, several smaller lakes, three brightly shining mountain ranges, and what appeared to be small collections of sprawling cities. They knew they were no longer in the world that they had known. More importantly, they knew that the old stories must be true.
Once again, the shamans of the many tribes felt the power of great dream magic, for in their dreams the moon was reborn as a part of a great ritual involving many different far flung peoples. The next evening, the moon appeared in the night sky looking just as it had in the old world, desolate but beautiful. A few weeks later, they dreamed of a ritual to call upon Tama'nui'tera, lord of the sun, and Maoi, the trickster god which ensnared the sun with coconut tree vines and beat it with a jawbone to slow it down as it traversed the sky. The next morning, to their amazement, they saw the sun in the sky, being held back by Maoi so as to provide more time in the light for his children.
When the red wizards, led by the tattoo covered Mythrell'aa, appeared on a flying boat descending from the sky to the East Ossean island of Kalgooratha, it was only natural that the natives treated them with awed fascination. However, it was the appearance of Zulkir Mythrell'aa herself that truly dazzled the people of Osse, for the illusionist's pale, blue-white skin did appear to glow with an inner light. Also, she was covered head to toe with strange tattoos which all swore were powerful signs of Alcheringa, though none could exactly recall what they looked like later. Then Mythrell'aa did tell the story of how she and her people had come from one of the Tears of the moon, and as she spoke images formed in the air showing the majesty of Luneira. She spoke of how her people needed to seed the earth, and they brought strange beasts and tools unlike anything that the Oslanders had ever seen. In return for allowing them to share the land and providing aid to work the land, the red wizards offered to teach the islanders of agriculture, animal husbandry, and boat building. Moreover, they would dedicate themselves as protectors of the people of the islands, for all knew that this strange new world would bring with it great danger.
Tharch of the Oslander Islands
This Tharch was established months after the transfer to Abeir occurred by red wizards from the Tharch of Luneira. The Luneiran red wizards had watched the continent of Osse even when it had passed beneath them before the Spellplague. Some had even visited it only to discover that the natives believed in a strange form of dream magic which they referred to as Alcheringa, which the red wizards laughed at as an inherently inferior magic. Then the spellplague occurred, and the interest in cooperative dream magic grew. In addition, the people of Luneira lacked the terrestrial rains necessary to grow crops. So, descending from the stars in their sky ships, the red wizards contacted the simple people of the eastern islands just off the coast of Osse.
But this meeting was not one of conquering invaders come to bring bloody war to Osse. With the transfer to Abeir, the sky had turned steel gray, the sun and moon had disappeared, and the stars in the night sky were different. To the Oslander natives, the pale-skinned Mulans covered in strange and magical tattoos, and wearing elaborate and beautiful clothing and jewelry, seemed to be spirits of the moon descended from the heavens. To add to the fact, they actually brought a large number of the tribal elders aboard their ship and brought them to their flying city amongst the newly formed and solidified “Tears of Selune”. To the natives, this was indeed powerful Alcheringa and these spokesmen convinced their fellow tribesmen to welcome the outsiders.
The Mulan visitors were allowed to build a small village of their own in return for presents of simple magic potions, glass jewelry, collections of seeds and food spices, several simple plowshares and draft animals, and a small collection of musical instruments. They also educated these natives in the use of new farming implements and the care of new plants, and the red wizards used their weather control magics to confirm that their first crop was bountiful enough that the natives might share with their new neighbors. This also taught the red wizards which crops grew well in this new environment, and they soon setup an agreement with the natives to aid them in their trials and tribulations in return for a portion of the crops and the occasional gift of new land in return for additional gifts.
As a result, the red wizards have not expanded very far into the surrounding territory, but they have built up a very healthy relationship with the Oslanders. Over time, they have settled into 3 villages located on the coastline of the original island known as Kalgooratha by the natives. They send their flying ships on a regular basis to the villages that they control to collect their tribute and meet with their local representatives to see if there are any issues that they can aid with. The local representatives usually serve in six month stints, during which time they are treated as honored visitors by the natives. The natives supply their small children to serve as simple servants to clean, prepare meals, take care of small gardens, and generally perform the menial but simple tasks that the red wizards would typically use slaves for. The females amongst Oslanders are also very much attracted to their Mulan benefactors, and as a result a growing amount of the population are less honey golden or bronze skinned and instead more pale-skinned. They continue to grow their hair, which is typically dark, thick and wavy, and are very fond of decorating it with flowers.
It has become somewhat of a tradition amongst the Kalgooratha islanders to send their elders to make a pilgrimage to visit the moon with their immediate family before they die. The red wizards usually have no issues with this simple request, and it is a common thing for ships arriving and departing from the island of Kalgooratha to have Oslander natives who have spent a week or two on holiday at the Tharch of Luneira. As a result, many Oslander natives now make several trips to the great “Sky City” in the latter part of their lives, usually once or twice with their parents and possibly once or twice with themselves or their spouses. The islanders consider it especially rejoiceful if they are able to get a glimpse of Zulkir Mythrell'aa, whom they refer to as “The Painted Lady” for her tendency to periodically change her coloration of her skin, hair, and body art in outlandish colors that no human would possess.
Zulkir Mythrell'aa earned this measure of interest and respect in the years immediately following the spellplague, when a mated pair of green dragons and their dragonborn servants attacked the island of Kalgooratha and the Mulan settlement which had been newly established there. Many Oslander natives were slain in the assault, but none of the survivors would ever forget the sudden appearance of the blue-skinned woman with purple polka dots on her arms and whose entire body was wreathed in green flames. Within seconds, she had slain one of the dragons, its heart giving out of sheer fright it appeared. It dropped from the sky and crushed numerous of its dragonborn servants beneath its dying bulk. The other dragon tried to flee, but Mythrell'aa and her fellow red wizards followed it back in secret to another island just to the north. She then used compulsion magic on the dragon and had it murder all of its remaining dragonborn servants, then slew it while it was in its weakened state.
The red wizards then seized this northerly island and its crude structures for their own. Apparently the dragons and dragonborn had not dwelt there long, having murdered another culture of islanders and moved into their simple huts. The reason they had been drawn to the Island of Kalgooratha had been their sightings of flying ships travelling there from the moon. The red wizards renamed this island New Alaor, and set about setting up a ship building and lumber harvesting community. They use these ships to periodically hunt game, explore, and harvest lumber from the nearby continent of Osse. Over the past hundred years, several times they have run across dragonborn, dragons, and genasi with ties to Abeir, though the extent to which Osse has been overrun they have yet to put in a concerted effort to discover, for the threat has stayed primarily confined to the continent itself.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2017 : 12:39:53
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BTW, the way I wrote up the above, its essentially that many of the wild human tribes that were in the area that was "Katashaka" (when all the continents were together) transferred to Abeir onto the continent that is called "Osse" by most of us (during the tearfall or the elven Sundering or possibly even some "other" sundering ). After some time, the continent of Osse actually transferred back to Toril. This basically implies that at some point there was another sundering before what we're calling Sundering 2.0... it just may not have involved Faerun, and so the Faerunians didn't notice.
Also, this transfer initially to Osse from Katashaka, perhaps it setup a center point in Katashaka that is transferred territory from Abeir holding ancient powerful entities that are primordial like but not elemental in nature. Essentially, I've mentioned them having this area with the Kaiju like monsters (the Nyama-nummo). Many of these beings have been asleep for centuries if not millennia, but perhaps their dreams are interacting with this world somehow. For example, in this area Ramenos (giant sleeping froglike god of batrachi), Merrshaulk (giant sleeping snake god), Camazotz (giant sleeping god of Bainligor) are all surrounded by their worshippers. Perhaps occasionally some of them are able to gain the attention of the sleeping "god" and the gods "dreaming" changes them.... and thus elder bainligor become revered ones, etc... Maybe the dreaming of these entities produces powerful forces (for instance, perhaps "The Sleeper" mentioned in GHotR actually dreams Tarrasques into existence when it "awakens" kind of like an avatar that it uses to interact with the world while the body still sleeps). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Need interesting way to bring back someone
