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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  00:49:20  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I will be running a campaign set in an alternate reality version of FR where the heroes failed to stop Orcus in the Throne of Bloodstone adventure 50+ years ago. The demon prince of the undead managed to enter the Realms and using powerful plot-magic, has partially drawn Toril into the Abyss itself. Other demon lords have entered the fray (Grazz't, Lolth, and Demogorgon, and possibly others) as each attempts to claim Toril for their own and add it as a new layer in their realms. The gods are limited in what they can do because Toril is already partially in the Abyss, but they can use their avatars.

Orcus controls a huge region around Damara, Vaasa, and the areas eastward.

Lolth controls much of the Underdark and some traditionally elvish areas aboveground.

Grazz't makes his home in Waterdeep (unless you can think of a better place)

Demogorgon actually has the least area, controlling Chult and the neighboring areas, possibly up to the Moonshaes.

The campaign will be fairly bleak in nature, with the good guys struggling mightily just to survive. Would love to get some ideas on how these demon lords might change the areas under their control, how other demon lords or celestial/infernal beings might be involved, etc...

It should go without saying that I am not interested in opinions about how this would never work because of X, Y or Z.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 02 Jun 2017 00:51:49

xaeyruudh
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  01:49:33  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grazzt in Waterdeep. Wow. That would change things a bit. Here's a couple of ideas that come to me...
* Laeral reclaims the Stronghold of The Nine and the Crown of Horns. She thus gains the cooperation (of sorts) of Myrkul and resumes her old identity as the Witch Queen of the North. Grazzt fiddles with the mythal-like spellguards put in place by the elves, Ahghairon, and Khelben -- among other things this makes teleporting in and out of Waterdeep impossible for non-demons. Halaster works loosely with Laeral by magically sucking important people into an upper sublevel of Undermountain (unaffected by the teleport ban because it's just beneath the sewers) and pushing them through portals to various cities in other parts of the Realms (Marsember, Telflamm, Lushpool, whatever). Demons rule the city above, but I think Grazzt enjoys having mortal thralls (especially fearful innocent ones) so the demons are under strict orders not to kill humans, dwarves, etc... tho killing elves might be approved if he's in the mood to tweak Lolth's ears.

Demogorgon in Chult... hm. This likely means that the Shining Sea and a growing expanse of the Trackless and Great Seas are turning swampy. Green water, patches of unexplainable boiling, horribly mutated oceanic and swamp-dwelling monsters, and so forth. He doesn't give a rip about mortals, so PC races are probably a vanishing minority on land, replaced by alkiliths and other weird demons. Speaking of land, that's gonna be swampy too. Ugh... imagine the mosquitoes!

Lolth has Evermeet, right? This is an awesome dark twist. Evermeet still pristine, but perhaps all the elves are turned into drow. The water around Evermeet is probably messed up too, since this will be the battleground for any confrontations between her and Demogorgon. A new breed of aquatic elf mixing drow and malenti? Lolth-touched and Faerzress-infused krakens/morkoths... lots of interesting possibilities. Alternately Lolth has Cormanthor, that could work too -- especially if you add WotC's plotline of resurrecting Myth Drannor, with the obvious twist that drow are rebuilding it, or the elves who rebuilt it are transformed into drow. An interesting part of this twisted version of Faerun could be portals being built to link many drow communities across the Underdark, allowing Lolth to raise armies of thousands of drow anywhere in Faerun within minutes. Wait, what's that sound... I do believe Corellon is having a psychotic episode!

Orcus is what really caught my attention. He's already got a useful canon foothold in the demoncysts spread across Narfell's historic reach. If he can control Eltab and Soneillon, he has two powerful champions (also liabilities to him, but it's not like he's afraid of being killed). His armies grow as the populations of Impiltur, Damara, Narfell, the Great Dale, and the western Endless Waste fall and are raised as undead.

Lots of possibilities. My question is: what's your "endgame?" What does PC success look like in this scenario?
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  03:52:29  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh, lots of interesting ideas you've got there. Why would Laeral do such an obviously self-destructive thing? Unless maybe it was out of pure desperation as everything she loved crumbled around her.

I think of Grazz't as the type of demon prince who would actually want to largely keep humanity intact, albeit twisted to his dark desires. So, take the type of evil inherent in a cosmopolitan city like Waterdeep and amplify it a thousand-fold. Nobles hunting the poor for sport, debaucherous galas, that sort of thing. Lots of humanoid demons like succubi/incubi and alu-fiends. I could see Halaster's Undermountain being a refuge of sorts...

I put Demogorgon in Chult because I couldn't think of a better place. He seems to like salt water and jungles so I think it fits. The mosquitos? Chasme demons you mean!

I hadn't even thought of Evermeet. On the one hand, an evil Evermeet could be really interesting. On the other, it seems like if any place in the Realms would be able to defend itself, it would be Evermeet (especially since the entire Elven pantheon would probably assist). I could definitely see Cormanthor being overrun by Drow seeking to acquire the lost magics of Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor. Lots of potential there.

Completely forgot about the Nars and demonbinding, but that totally works. I'll have to read up on demoncysts since I've never heard of that. I wonder, would Eltab remain bound or would the power of the Abyss flooding into him give him the strength to break free...

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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  08:12:05  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I think a couple of assumptions have to be made, before your campaign premise makes sense.

* Mystra's Chosen are scattered/shattered. If the events of H1-H4 happened 50+ yrs ago, your current year is 1400ish, right? Within the time frame of 4e. That's perfect -- Mystra is out of commission, Elminster and nearly every other major spellcaster in the Realms is insane and/or vulnerable to spontaneous combustion (to put it mildly) so they can't prevent something major like a demon prince appearing in Faerun. Perhaps the gods were unable to prevent it as well. It's certainly easy to understand how an avatar would be unable to stop Orcus/Grazzt/Demogorgon, particularly when the Weave is unraveling.

Okay, one assumption.

In this situation, it's safer (and more interesting) for Myrkul to use his old Crown artifact rather than walk around in a bipedal avatar. He's relatively incognito in the crown.

With a minor bit of hand-waving you can declare that (in your campaign at least) Laeral's mind and body are shielded (perhaps 50% magic resistance or a hefty bonus to saves, and total immunity to non-Myrkulian attempts to break or bend her will) by mind-melding with Myrkul, allowing her to draw on his power (the power of Hades, indirectly) partially to augment/stabilize her grip on the Weave and thus use magic more freely than she would be able to without that alliance. From Myrkul's perspective... Laeral may or may not be as "strong" as his avatar, but if she gets herself killed he loses nothing... he just gets her killer to put on the crown and thus gets himself a new avatar.

Totally agreed on the desperation. The crown of horns would not be Laeral's first choice of great things to do. At the dawn of the Spellplague she would realize what's happening, but not how to fix it. She would know when Elminster goes loopy, she would know that the Simbul is busy taking care of him. Khelben is gone. Alustriel has her own issues to deal with. I haven't read the Lady Penitent novels, but Qilu is busy with that. I forget what happened to Storm and Dove, but they have problems too. Laeral is kinda on her own, facing Grazzt and the new Dark Waterdeep. Over a bit of time she'll reach out to her contacts... the Harpells (probably no help)... Halaster (some help)... even Larloch (????)... even with mortal allies, though, the Spellplague is a problem. Enter Myrkul, with a whisper here and there... it won't take too many attacks and narrow escapes before she's sufficiently desperate to consider Myrkul's deal. Wholeheartedly welcome him into her mind? Never. But she knows that if they can survive this Spellplague craziness, and "reboot" Mystra, everything will work out. Her sisters, Elminster, Mystra herself will not allow Myrkul to keep her. She also knows that Myrkul won't willingly let her die... he didn't do it last time she wore the crown, and she's more useful to him now. She just needs to have faith, and backbone... and if there's two things Laeral has truckloads of, it's courage and faith in her sisters and Mystra.

I think your high opinion of Evermeet and its defenders might be precisely the reason why it should fall to Lolth. Unless of course you're really set on Cormanthor for whatever reason, that could be great too. I just think that *every* fan of the Realms agrees that "if any place in the Realms would be able to defend itself, it would be Evermeet." That means it's far more eye-opening and disheartening when they find out it's fallen. If Evermeet has fallen, what hope do mortals have? Well, the PCs have their work cut out for them. It also eliminates Evermeet from the list of possible allies, making the players think harder and the PCs reach deeper to find their own strength and resourcefulness. Cormanthor would be fine... just kinda expected/predictable, ya know? Just my opinion: make the world your own!

Info on demoncysts (and Eltab and Soneillon) is in the 3e book Champions of Ruin. I thought I remembered seeing some in Unapproachable East too, but I don't see it now. Baaaasically there's patches of the Abyss hidden just underground all over the place in the regions that used to be Narfell. Damara, Vaasa, Impiltur, the Great Dale, Thesk, Thay. Many of these patches already contain demons, who are understandably miffed about being imprisoned on Toril since the fall of Narfell. Lots of allies for Orcus, just waiting to be dug up and freed.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 02 Jun 2017 08:13:11
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  08:16:27  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's worth noting that Larloch (and Aumvor, among others) lived through the loss of all magic during the fall of Netheril. They will not be unprepared for it to happen again, as the Fall taught them that Mystra is not invulnerable.

Therefore, the Spellplague (or the invasion of demon princes) will not destroy them. If you want to use them for something, they're available.

(I suggest that the PCs could be manipulated into doing a few favors for one or both of them, through several layers of intermediaries so they don't immediately know who they're working for... building a rapport over time that allows Larloch/whoever to be one of those heavy-hitting allies the PCs are going to need if the campaign calls for them to banish one of the demon princes. But remember that Larloch doesn't necessarily care if demons take over Waterdeep, and he cares even less about Evermeet, so he won't suicide for the PCs' benefit. He'll provide an assist, if he can do so conveniently and without risking his skeletal neck, but he'll want to get something good for himself out of the deal.)


Edited by - xaeyruudh on 02 Jun 2017 08:35:52
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  17:31:37  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My knowledge of FR only extends to the material created for 2e and a bit of 3e, but more importantly, I think that many of the events in the years after 1359 would be altered. Also, because the Time of Troubles is less than one year prior to this event (1359 according to the official timeline), I think it would be best to not have both, as that seems a bit overkill. Obviously, this greatly changes the Realms, but quite a bit less so than the event itself. However, I could possibly take pieces of both discarded major events and incorporate them. Or, alternatively, by moving the event forward a few months, it could have occurred during the Time of Troubles, which would certainly explain why the gods and Chosen were unable to prevent it. Actually, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of combining the event with the ToT.

This would mean that Myrkul is dead, but the Crown still contains a piece of his divine spark.

I could see Khelben and Laeral (if she isn't using the Crown) taking refuge in Undermountain and having an uneasy alliance with Halaster.

As for Evermeet, I'm basing the defenses on the 2e book Elves of Evermeet. I do think Lolth could probably take it given enough time and resources, although Cormanthor would be way easier. My players don't really know anything about Evermeet, so it wouldn't be the sort of crushing blow you might be thinking -- they'd just be like "oh, okay."

I like the idea of Orcus using the Demoncysts. I imagine he did that early on in order to build his army. Now that Toril is partially in the Abyss, it's easy for demons to enter the Realms, but at the start of it all Orcus would have to use every resource he could find.

I'm trying to decide what to do with Eltab. Is he free? Or are the Zulkir's of Thay using every magic at their disposal to keep him imprisoned so that he doesn't get his revenge on them?

If this event is combined with the ToT, then all arcane magic would be highly unstable and no divine magic would exist. Even if not combined, there would be some effects from Toril's proximity to the Abyss: Wish-type spells are fulfilled by the Demon Princes. Clerics turn as 1 level lower and can't recover high-level spells.







Edited by - valarmorgulis on 02 Jun 2017 17:34:22
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  19:58:47  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

My knowledge of FR only extends to the material created for 2e and a bit of 3e, but more importantly, I think that many of the events in the years after 1359 would be altered. Also, because the Time of Troubles is less than one year prior to this event (1359 according to the official timeline), I think it would be best to not have both, as that seems a bit overkill. Obviously, this greatly changes the Realms, but quite a bit less so than the event itself. However, I could possibly take pieces of both discarded major events and incorporate them. Or, alternatively, by moving the event forward a few months, it could have occurred during the Time of Troubles, which would certainly explain why the gods and Chosen were unable to prevent it. Actually, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of combining the event with the ToT.

This would mean that Myrkul is dead, but the Crown still contains a piece of his divine spark.

I could see Khelben and Laeral (if she isn't using the Crown) taking refuge in Undermountain and having an uneasy alliance with Halaster.

As for Evermeet, I'm basing the defenses on the 2e book Elves of Evermeet. I do think Lolth could probably take it given enough time and resources, although Cormanthor would be way easier. My players don't really know anything about Evermeet, so it wouldn't be the sort of crushing blow you might be thinking -- they'd just be like "oh, okay."

I like the idea of Orcus using the Demoncysts. I imagine he did that early on in order to build his army. Now that Toril is partially in the Abyss, it's easy for demons to enter the Realms, but at the start of it all Orcus would have to use every resource he could find.

I'm trying to decide what to do with Eltab. Is he free? Or are the Zulkir's of Thay using every magic at their disposal to keep him imprisoned so that he doesn't get his revenge on them?

If this event is combined with the ToT, then all arcane magic would be highly unstable and no divine magic would exist. Even if not combined, there would be some effects from Toril's proximity to the Abyss: Wish-type spells are fulfilled by the Demon Princes. Clerics turn as 1 level lower and can't recover high-level spells.



I like the juxtaposition concept of Undermountain as a Refuge from the Demon Lords, with Khelben, Laeral, and Halaster as a desperate alliance.

If you're going down the road of letting the Demon Lords loose on the landscape... Let Eltab finally have dominion over Thay, while Sonellion tries to play Orcus & Eltab against each other for control of the lands between Vaasa & Thay.

Have the remnants of the Red Wizards & the Witches of Rashemen create a different sort of desperate Alliance while caught between the powers of Orcus & Eltab.

Good stuff, valarmorgulis.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  17:11:35  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Read up a bit more on Eltab. During the ToT he was imprisoned under Eltabbar and his bonds were already weakening, so yes, I'll have Eltab get dominion over Thay. Szass Tam does not yet have the Death Moon Orb or Thakorsil's Seat, and therefore no means with which to bind the demon lord. So, he will flee -- current location unknown.

One thing I'm working on is how much of the canon ToT I want to keep. Some of my first thoughts are:

* Keep the destruction of Bane, but possibly change how it happens.
* No elevation of Cyric or anyone else to godhood
* Iyachtu Xvim destroyed by Orcus?
* Waukeen, Siamorphe captured by Grazz't?
* Tiamat raises a dragon army and conquers Unther?
* Do the demon princes kill any of the gods and thereby gain more power? Does Lolth kill Shar? Do they work together to create the Shadowweave? Ilbrandul?
* I'd like for Mystra to drain her Chosen of the gifts she gave them. Possibly because she is weakened but not killed by Helm, or because some other event occurs that weakens her greatly. Or maybe she does it in order to maintain control over the Weave and prevent all magic from failing.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 07 Jun 2017 17:23:22
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  18:43:29  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

During the ToT he was imprisoned under Eltabbar and his bonds were already weakening, so yes, I'll have Eltab get dominion over Thay.


Nice idea.


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Keep the destruction of Bane, but possibly change how it happens.


Why? Bane contributes to the dark and oppressive flavor of this version of the Realms.


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* No elevation of Cyric or anyone else to godhood



Total agreement from me.


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Iyachtu Xvim destroyed by Orcus?


Alternatively, Bane could put Iyachtu in charge of Zhentil Keep --
or Mulmaster, for another twist. Either way the Zhentarim remains a sinister force from the Moonsea to the Sword Coast. If Iyachtu rules Zhentil Keep, then Fzoul rises to great importance and Manshoon keeps a low profile -- maybe he relocates to Voonlar or Daggerdale and changes the political situation there. If Iyachtu rules Mulmaster, Zhentil Keep remains basically ruled by the Zhentarim and both ends of the Moonsea are under the heavy hand of Bane.


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Tiamat raises a dragon army and conquers Unther?


It seems reasonable to me that dragons would be disturbed (and some routed from their lairs) by the influx of demons. Many of them might be open to Tiamat's implied or explicit command to retake the Realms for the glory of dragonkind.

You could roll out 3e's Tchazzar as Tiamat's champion and enforcer, making her "pitch" to various dragons far more effective.


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Do the demon princes kill any of the gods and thereby gain more power? Does Lolth kill Shar? Do they work together to create the Shadowweave? Ilbrandul?


It's your call of course, but I would avoid killing Shar or any of the other major evil gods. A confrontation where Lolth absorbs Shar (keeping both churches intact) might be interesting, though...


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* I'd like for Mystra to drain her Chosen of the gifts she gave them.


I agree that this makes sense for your campaign.
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:02:27  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I'd like to keep the focus on the Demon Princes rather than the dark gods as the primary evils. I'll be DMing a solo campaign with a friend and he might play a former blackguard of Bane, and he has expressed a desire that his character be dealing with a huge sense of loss. Bane's death would provide that. Also, I like the idea of the Baneliches squabbling with each other, and the repercussions that Bane's death would have on the Zhentarim. That said, I don't imagine Bane will stay dead forever. Before his death, he will conquer all of the Moonsea, although I'm not sure if he would use the Zhentarim to do so.

I've changed Bane's portfolio to center around "might" more than hatred and strife. I want him to be an evil god that would actually appeal to a significant number of people. Compared to say, Loviatar or even Shar, who really have little reason to be worshiped.

Wasn't Iyachtu imprisoned at this time? I suppose someone could release him.

Yes, I think I'll have Shar and Lolth team up or combine. Possibly to create a Shadowweave, since who weaves better than the Weaver herself?. Mystra might drain the Chosen in order to keep the Weave from being overtaken by the Shadoweave (thinking of it more like a parasite or virus than a completely separate Weave).

I'll need to do some research on Tchazzar, but sounds promising.


Edited by - valarmorgulis on 07 Jun 2017 19:13:17
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:24:12  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

Read up a bit more on Eltab. During the ToT he was imprisoned under Eltabbar and his bonds were already weakening, so yes, I'll have Eltab get dominion over Thay. Szass Tam does not yet have the Death Moon Orb or Thakorsil's Seat, and therefore no means with which to bind the demon lord. So, he will flee -- current location unknown.

One thing I'm working on is how much of the canon ToT I want to keep. Some of my first thoughts are:

* Keep the destruction of Bane, but possibly change how it happens.



Wow... Lots of possibilities with this. I'm thinking that maybe folks in the Realms are becoming so doubtful of the so-called "good" gods, they're actually wondering if the Return of Bane might be the kind of thing that might be needed to save Toril from the Abyss. Especially, because Helm could be seen as a short-sighted god of law that enabled the Demon Lords actions... Because he harmed Mystra, and she was unable to oppose the Abyssal incursion.

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* No elevation of Cyric or anyone else to godhood


Maybe keep Mask as Godsbane?... Perhaps the sword is essential to defeat the Demon Lords... Perhaps the Demon Lords know this and are actively looking for the sword...


quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Iyachtu Xvim destroyed by Orcus?


I like the idea of Xvim trying to portray himself as a "heroic defender" of Toril that battled against Orcus and the other Demon Lords, while the so-called "good" gods fought with each other and allowed the Demon Lords to invade Faerun.

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Waukeen, Siamorphe captured by Grazz't?


Maybe Waukeen and Siamorphe are using their capture as an opportunity to try and convince Grazzt to give up his ambitions on Toril, and take his rightful throne as ruler of the Nine Hells.

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Tiamat raises a dragon army and conquers Unther?


Definitely... and maybe Unther is better off for it? Unther could be seen as relatively stable under the rule of Tiamat and her Dragon Armies. The people of Faerun could be abandoning their traditional faiths and praying that Dragons will swoop in and rescue them from the Demons.

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

* Do the demon princes kill any of the gods and thereby gain more power? Does Lolth kill Shar? Do they work together to create the Shadowweave? Ilbrandul?
* I'd like for Mystra to drain her Chosen of the gifts she gave them. Possibly because she is weakened but not killed by Helm, or because some other event occurs that weakens her greatly. Or maybe she does it in order to maintain control over the Weave and prevent all magic from failing.



I like the idea that Lolth tries to kill Shar. Maybe Shar and Mystra are so wounded by their respective battles with Lolth and Helm that the only way they can prevent Lolth from subsuming Shar, and prevent the Weave from unraveling following Mystra's death... is for Shar and Mystra to either combine into a new entity or be absorbed by Selune... Lolth gets some control over the Shadowweave... Shar and Mystra are gone, but the Weave remains intact, and all the chosen lose their powers.

...Lots of possibilities with this Abyss-Toril concept.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:27:30  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

Well, I'd like to keep the focus on the Demon Princes rather than the dark gods as the primary evils. I'll be DMing a solo campaign with a friend and he might play a former blackguard of Bane, and he has expressed a desire that his character be dealing with a huge sense of loss. Bane's death would provide that. Also, I like the idea of the Baneliches squabbling with each other, and the repercussions that Bane's death would have on the Zhentarim. That said, I don't imagine Bane will stay dead forever. Before his death, he will conquer all of the Moonsea, although I'm not sure if he would use the Zhentarim to do so.

I've changed Bane's portfolio to center around "might" more than hatred and strife. I want him to be an evil god that would actually appeal to a significant number of people. Compared to say, Loviatar or even Shar, who really have little reason to be worshiped.

Wasn't Iyachtu imprisoned at this time? I suppose someone could release him.

Yes, I think I'll have Shar and Lolth team up or combine. Possibly to create a Shadowweave, since who weaves better than the Weaver herself?. Mystra might drain the Chosen in order to keep the Weave from being overtaken by the Shadoweave (thinking of it more like a parasite or virus than a completely separate Weave).

I'll need to do some research on Tchazzar, but sounds promising.





I just saw this after I wrote my previous post, so we're totally on the same page with Bane as a potential foil to the Demon Lords, excellent.

Maybe have Xvim remain imprisoned... Or maybe Xvim was released when Orcus launched an attack on Zhentil Keep? Xvim flees to the Ruins of Myth Drannor (both potential plot-points for a former Blackguard of Bane).

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 07 Jun 2017 19:31:11
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:41:04  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... yes, I could see the endgame for Shar and Mystra being that they combine with Selune into one after Lolth betrays Shar and wrests complete control over the Shadowweave... possibly with Selune participating out of fear that Shar's darkness would overtake Mystra over time... we'll see.

I generally dislike Xvim because of his weird name, but this might be a good opportunity for him to play an interesting role.

I see Bane or Xvim as being the bulwark against Orcus, somewhat justifying his worship.

I'm curious about how Grazz't's presence in Waterdeep changes things. I've read that one of Grazz't's big plans is to subsume a world into the Abyss, so perhaps he is driving that part of it. Siamorphe might even support him so long as he keeps nobles in power.

I like the idea of Tiamat providing stability to Unther. I'm thinking a new southern empire here.


Edited by - valarmorgulis on 07 Jun 2017 19:43:42
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:42:11  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Alternatively, Bane could put Iyachtu in charge of Zhentil Keep -- or Mulmaster, for another twist. Either way the Zhentarim remains a sinister force from the Moonsea to the Sword Coast. If Iyachtu rules Zhentil Keep, then Fzoul rises to great importance and Manshoon keeps a low profile -- maybe he relocates to Voonlar or Daggerdale and changes the political situation there. If Iyachtu rules Mulmaster, Zhentil Keep remains basically ruled by the Zhentarim and both ends of the Moonsea are under the heavy hand of Bane.



Yeah, I think having Xvim & the Zhentarim taking control of Mulmaster to "protect" the holy place that Bane fell to Toril when he was cast out of the heavens, and trying to unify the cities of the Moonsea against the Demon Lords helps reinforce the concept of Bane as a possible savior of the Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

It seems reasonable to me that dragons would be disturbed (and some routed from their lairs) by the influx of demons. Many of them might be open to Tiamat's implied or explicit command to retake the Realms for the glory of dragonkind.

You could roll out 3e's Tchazzar as Tiamat's champion and enforcer, making her "pitch" to various dragons far more effective.



Definitely. Imaging that what the Realms needs is a supremely powerful Red Dragon to save it from the Demon Lords, is tremendous.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

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Edited by - Cyrinishad on 07 Jun 2017 19:44:46
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:46:40  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In that case I'd need some demon prince in the south to provide that threat. I was planning on putting Demogorgon in Chult, which is too far away. Maybe Eltab in Thay.

With the Death Moon Orb and Thakorsil's Seat still in Larloch's possession, who does he bind? Or do the PCs need to get the artifacts from Larloch to use them?

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 07 Jun 2017 19:49:03
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:50:38  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis


I'm curious about how Grazz't's presence in Waterdeep changes things. I've read that one of Grazz't's big plans is to subsume a world into the Abyss, so perhaps he is driving that part of it. Siamorphe might even support him so long as he keeps nobles in power.



What if they convince him to try and subsume Evermeet instead of Toril? Maybe Lolth wants to help him do it, so that they become King & Queen of the Abyss, and bring all the Elves into the Abyss with them...

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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  19:52:36  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

In that case I'd need some demon prince in the south to provide that threat. I was planning on putting Demogorgon in Chult, which is too far away. Maybe Eltab in Thay.

With the Death Moon Orb and Thakorsil's Seat still in Larloch's possession, who does he bind? Or do the PCs need to get the artifacts from Larloch to use them?



Put Baphomet and Yeenoghu in the South... I can see Gnolls, Minotaurs, and Were-Beasts running rampant over the South... Before the Dragons swoop in.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 07 Jun 2017 19:55:13
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  20:07:42  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baphomet/minotaurs + dragon army is a bit too similar to Dragon Lance IMO. But Yeenoghu is perfect, can't believe I totally forgot about him. Would he be able to provide any sort of opposition to Tiamat and her dragons?

If Myth Drannor were to be conquered by the drow, what would they rename it?

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 07 Jun 2017 20:32:29
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Wooly Rupert
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

If Myth Drannor were to be conquered by the drow, what would they rename it?



Myth Drownor.

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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  20:39:55  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

If Myth Drannor were to be conquered by the drow, what would they rename it?



Myth Drownor.



Ha! The Master of Mischief strikes again!

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  20:42:54  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL. That will definitely be the derisive title given to it by adventurers in the Realms.

I assume even the Srinshee and baelnorns wouldn't be able to stop Lolth and her minions from taking the ruins.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 07 Jun 2017 20:45:08
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  21:51:59  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

In that case I'd need some demon prince in the south to provide that threat. I was planning on putting Demogorgon in Chult, which is too far away. Maybe Eltab in Thay.


In canon, the South hasn't paid much attention to goings-on in the North for the past several centuries. That does not need to be the case in your Realms. Either way, it's entirely possible that Orcus taking over the Vaasa-Narfell swath of the North is enough to galvanize the south. Even if you're trying to stick to canon (outside of the demon princes specifically) Narfell attacked Mulhorand and Unther at least once in the past... and the southern empires have very long memories. If you have Eltab taking over Thay, that's *very* close, and guarantees some kind of military buildup across Mulhorand, Unther, and Chessenta. And Murghom, if they have the means. If they don't have the means, then Eltab might be taking control of Murghom as well.

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

With the Death Moon Orb and Thakorsil's Seat still in Larloch's possession, ... do the PCs need to get the artifacts from Larloch to use them?


I like this idea! Larloch has no real reason to be personally afraid of the demons or their masters as long as the Weave is intact, but threats to the Weave and perversions of Mystra (merging with Shar, Lolth, or Selune) would definitely predispose him in PCs' favor.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  21:56:52  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

Siamorphe might even support him so long as he keeps nobles in power.



What if they convince him to try and subsume Evermeet instead of Toril? Maybe Lolth wants to help him do it, so that they become King & Queen of the Abyss, and bring all the Elves into the Abyss with them...



Siamorphe is Lawful, at least in canon, so I think she would have to be seduced or dominated in order to go along with Grazzt's plan. However, given Grazzt's nature, either of those are entirely possible.

I don't see Grazzt and Lolth helping each other (it's just not a CE thing to do), but it's totally possible that they feign an alliance, each trying to mislead each other and *pretending* to help the other while actually working toward destroying each other.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  22:01:18  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

Baphomet/minotaurs + dragon army is a bit too similar to Dragon Lance IMO. But Yeenoghu is perfect, can't believe I totally forgot about him. Would he be able to provide any sort of opposition to Tiamat and her dragons?


I agree that Yeenoghu is perfect, and especially after seeing the other demon princes get involved he would definitely jump in and try to get a piece of the Toril pie. Gnolls are all about the pie!

How about Malar in place of Baphomet? Maybe he's actually a demon masquerading as a god, maybe not, but it doesn't really matter. He's cunning rabid hunger, personified, and tearing up armies (dragons, people, whatever) is right up his alley. If it bleeds, Malar's licking his chops.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  22:03:04  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

I assume even the Srinshee and baelnorns wouldn't be able to stop Lolth and her minions from taking the ruins.


Depends entirely on the needs of your campaign, in my opinion.

If you want Lolth to win, then the Srinshee can't stop her.

If you want Lolth to lose, the Srinshee can stop her.
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  22:13:13  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, sure. But I'd like to know the most "realistic" answer as well. So, for example, if Lolth would easily overpower the Srinshee, then I'd want to think of some allies the Srinshee could bring in to defeat Lolth. That said, I'll probably allow the drow to take the ruins of Myth Drannor. With it still being ruins, I'm not even sure the Srinshee would attempt to defend it.
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