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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe

Netherlands
423 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  08:08:16  Show Profile  Visit Tyranthraxus's Homepage  Click to see Tyranthraxus's MSN Messenger address Send Tyranthraxus a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I recently got my hands on the 1E PHB (finally! ) but I don't really understand how the multiple attacks for fighter classes work. I flipped through the PHB and DMG but couldn't find a clear explanation.

I assume it works the same as in 2E but I haven't played it for over a decade, and even back then I didn't fully understand how it worked.

1/1 is pretty straight forward, so is 2/2 but how about 3/2? At what point can a fighter make his extra attack?

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  10:49:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus

I recently got my hands on the 1E PHB (finally! ) but I don't really understand how the multiple attacks for fighter classes work. I flipped through the PHB and DMG but couldn't find a clear explanation.

I assume it works the same as in 2E but I haven't played it for over a decade, and even back then I didn't fully understand how it worked.

1/1 is pretty straight forward, so is 2/2 but how about 3/2? At what point can a fighter make his extra attack?



3/2 means three attacks per two rounds. In one round, they get one attack. The next round, they get two. In the third round, back to one, then two again in the fourth.

I don't recall if it was one attack in the very first round, or two, but either way, it alternates. Same for 5/2: two attacks, then three, then two, etc.

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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  11:35:59  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall if it was one attack in the very first round, or two, but either way, it alternates. Same for 5/2: two attacks, then three, then two, etc.


Aye spot on, 1 attack in round one and two attacks in round 2 - I seem to recall most DM's at the time I played with house-ruled that the extra attack in round two went at the end of the round regardless of initiative (similar to how the 2 bow attacks/round were handled).

Looking back now, getting multiple attacks in a round was ground breaking at the time, I still remember everyone going WOW and wanting to play a fighter or ranger

Just one nitpicking point though - I am sure the extra attacks appeared in Unearthed Arcana as part of weapon specialisation and not in the original PHB. Has there been some editing of the original PHB for the modern audience perhaps? Its seems somewhat strange to herald it as a reprint when in fact it is not?

Cheers

Damian

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe

Netherlands
423 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  14:38:17  Show Profile  Visit Tyranthraxus's Homepage  Click to see Tyranthraxus's MSN Messenger address Send Tyranthraxus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall if it was one attack in the very first round, or two, but either way, it alternates. Same for 5/2: two attacks, then three, then two, etc.


Aye spot on, 1 attack in round one and two attacks in round 2 - I seem to recall most DM's at the time I played with house-ruled that the extra attack in round two went at the end of the round regardless of initiative (similar to how the 2 bow attacks/round were handled).

Looking back now, getting multiple attacks in a round was ground breaking at the time, I still remember everyone going WOW and wanting to play a fighter or ranger

Just one nitpicking point though - I am sure the extra attacks appeared in Unearthed Arcana as part of weapon specialisation and not in the original PHB. Has there been some editing of the original PHB for the modern audience perhaps? Its seems somewhat strange to herald it as a reprint when in fact it is not?

Cheers

Damian



Thanks for explaining. I own the revised version of the PHB (the one with the Jeff Easley cover), maybe they added the multiple attack rule in this version?

I also found out about OSRIC, a 1E retro clone, and it says the extra attack is on every odd round.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6239 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  15:27:49  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AD&D 1E Player's Handbook -

Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers of sufficient level receive multiple melee attacks per melee round (up to 2/1), detailed in a table on p.25. Monks also receive multiple melee attacks per melee round (up to 4/1), detailed on p.31 (Monks get this number of attacks regardless whether they fight armed or unarmed, and they can always apply their per-level damage bonus). Multi-classed and Dual-classed Fighters (and Bards) have attacks per round determined by their levels in the Fighter class.

The text also refers to the COMBAT chapter, which states on p.104: "Fighters able to strike more than once during a round will attack once before opponents not able to do so, regardless of initiative, but if the opponent is a fighter and in melee then initiative applies. Position and weapon length [initiative modifiers, weapon speed factor, etc] will sometimes affect the order of attack in melee combat."

Of course p.25 also appends this ad-hoc little Gygaxian paragraph: "Note: This excludes melee combat with monsters (q.v.) of less than one hit die (d8) and non-exceptional (0 level) humans and semi-humans, i.e. all creatures with less than one eight-sided hit die. All of these creatures entitle a fighter to attack once for each of his or her experience levels (See COMBAT)."
[No further explanation or examples are provided in the COMBAT chapter.]

In plain English, a level 7 Fighter with 3/2 attacks per melee round gets one attack on the first round and two on the next. In those rounds when he has two attacks he gets one right away and the second during normal initiative ... unless his opponent also gets multiple attacks in the same round, in which case each attacker rolls initiative for their first attacks, then rolls normal initiative (along with everybody else) for their second attacks. The Fighter gets one attack per round for each experience level when in melee against worthless opponents (<1HD or 0-level), in this example he would have seven attacks per round vs kobolds or bar wenches. (The convoluted Gygaxian wording makes it unclear whether these attacks are in addition to or instead of the Fighter's usual 3/2 attacks, I've seen DMs go either way, this issue can get a little ridiculous at high levels and is apparently discussed in some ancient gaming magazine. Optional combat rules from the DMG can impose a practical limit of about 4-12 opponents based on maximum number of surrounding hexes/attackers, attacker movement rates, and grappling/pummelling/overbearing tactics.)

A level 4 Monk gets 5/4 attacks per melee round; so he gets one attack per round for three melee rounds, then two attacks on the fourth melee round. His multiple attack works the same way as for a Fighter; it strikes before any normal attacks, unless the opponent also has multiple attacks in which case both roll initiative. High-level Monks can have more attacks than high-level Fighters but do not gain the Fighter's extra attacks vs worthless opponents. A 13th level Monk gets 5/2 attacks per round and a 13th level Fighter gets 2/1 (which = 4/2) attacks per round; so on the first round they each get two attacks (each rolls initiative and attacks, then each rolls normal initiative and attacks again), on the second round the Monk gets to attack the Fighter before initiative is rolled then they both get two attacks (again each rolls initiative and attacks, twice).

Things can get a little tricky when multiple attacks are used against multiple targets who each have different rates of attack; in practice this usually doesn't happen a lot unless a character is in melee against a big pack of trash being led by a worthy champion ... and even then, PCs most often concentrate on tanking all their attacks against the big targets first (or hacking a path towards these targets) while hoping their allies will deal with the lesser mob.

AD&D 1E Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survival Guide -

The introduction of Weapon (and Non-Weapon) Proficiency rules assumes that all characters of any level are always limited to one clumsy attack per round unless they have spent a Proficiency Slot in the weapon type they're using.

AD&D 1E Unearthed Arcana -

Weapon Specialization rules (p.18) will increase the specialist's number of attacks per round when using that weapon. This basically adds +1/2 attacks per melee round (up to 5/2) for all melee weapon types; it also increases the base attacks per round with ranged and thrown weapons. Bonuses from Double Specialization do not further increase attack rate. Only Fighters and Rangers can use Weapon Specialization and Double Specialization (and the Ranger is limited at early levels because allocation of his Weapon Proficiency slots is somewhat predetermined, as described on p.22).

Barbarians and Cavaliers are treated as a subclass of Fighters but cannot use Weapon Specialization; Cavaliers do gain faster multiple attack rates with their "Weapon of Choice", detailed on p.14-15. Paladins also cannot use Weapon Specialization, and they are now treated as a subclass of Cavalier instead of a subclass of Fighter (a largely meaningless rule, unless it maybe affects multiple attacks vs worthless opponents). Although not explicitly stated, it's usually accepted that Monks are not a Fighter subclass (they are actually a Thief subclass) and they cannot use Weapon Specialization.

A few magical items (Crossbow of Speed, Shortsword of Quickness, etc) can increase number of attacks per round.

The AD&D 2E rules detailing multiple attacks are a bit cleaner overall (at least the tables are presented in a more uniform manner and most of the relevant rules are all in the PHB), although in 2E the second and subsequent melee attacks in a single round are normally determined after all combatants have completed their first attacks. The rule about warriors attacking worthless opponents is reprinted and reworded (in the DMG) in such a way that confusion about it remains unresolved.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2012 18:08:43
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  17:56:58  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall if it was one attack in the very first round, or two, but either way, it alternates. Same for 5/2: two attacks, then three, then two, etc.


Aye spot on, 1 attack in round one and two attacks in round 2 - I seem to recall most DM's at the time I played with house-ruled that the extra attack in round two went at the end of the round regardless of initiative (similar to how the 2 bow attacks/round were handled).





That shows you how well I read the rules, for nearly twenty years I have remembered it as two attacks in the first round and one in the second.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  19:04:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always had to roll initiative for all attacks... Of course, when I played my kensai in 2E, between his specialization and the already fast speed of a katana, my character often got both of his attacks in before anyone else got their first/only attack!

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Mar 2012 19:05:06
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2012 :  20:43:27  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

AD&D 1E Player's Handbook -
Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers of sufficient level receive multiple melee attacks per melee round (up to 2/1), detailed in a table on p.25.


Ta muchly - I went and reread my PHB

Cheers

Damian

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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DestroyYouAlot
Seeker

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2012 :  15:07:21  Show Profile  Visit DestroyYouAlot's Homepage  Send DestroyYouAlot an AOL message  Send DestroyYouAlot a Yahoo! Message Send DestroyYouAlot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, folks.

AD&D (1e) initiative is a much-discussed topic on several forums, but here's a pretty exhaustive rundown, attempting to reconcile all the various rules presented in the DMG:

http://knights-n-knaves.com/dmprata/ADDICT.pdf

Suffice it to say that it's simpler than it looks, but that many DMs simplify things in their games (keep in mind that most of the text here covers edge cases).

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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
569 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  09:34:50  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Explained well!!!

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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