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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 16:16:40
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Just correcting one thing from the above
>>Ao didn't chuck primordials in with the rest of the gods in the Time of Troubles>>
Yes he did. It was little known where they went (probably because most of them didn't do anything but sit there). But Kossuth definitely appeared in the realms to some firenewts down in chult.
From Serpent Kingdoms, page 37
"The fact that firenewts worship Kossuth instead of some aspect of the World Serpent provides further support for the theory that they were not created by the sarrukh. In fact, the firenewts are among the oldest and most faithful devotees of the Flamelord. Though cults of Kossuth are plentiful in Faerūn, the god truly seems to favor the firenewts. Their clerics teach that Kossuth imbued firenewts with flame when he freed them from the dominion of the World Serpent in the depths of the Burning Rift.
During the Time of Troubles, Kossuth appeared in the Burning Rift beneath the Peaks of Flame and chose a firenewt
blackguard named Chassan, overlord of a local tribe, as his avatar. Kossuth/Chassan led the firenewts into a brutal war with the pterafolk of the Chultengar, and the conflict lasted until the Avatar Crisis had ended. Kossuth returned to the planes, leaving the charred corpse of Chassan in his wake, but the god later rewarded Chassan's loyalty by allowing him to return to his tribe as a deathflame (a version of a death knight; see Chassan, below). Chassan, who still leads the Ack'ta tribe by the Flamelord's decree, is one of the few firenewt overlords who
also holds, sway over the clerics of Kossuth."
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 16:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I like what Wooly has said here - I don't think whether or not primordials can grant spells is the core issue differentiating them from gods. Edit: though I do think primordials are more than more powerful elementals - core 4e had them arising from the Inner Planes the same time the gods arose in the Outer Planes.
Primordials vs gods
Some of the difference between an elemental lord/primordial can be garnered from F&A:
quote:
Like all the elemental lords, Istishia is relatively unfeeling toward his followers on Abeir-Toril. His reactions are utterly unpredictable and thus, in an odd way, predictable in their unpredictability. The reasoning behind Istishia's actions is incomprehensible to most of Faerun's inhabitants, including his worshipers. The alien and uncaring stance of Istishia and the other elemental lords has led to the mistaken impression in the Realms that they are only lesser powers and their followers merely oddball cultists. During the Time of Troubles, Istishia was not spotted in the Realms.
Some things we know that are different between them:
Primordials arose from the Inner Planes, gods from the Outer Planes
Primordials don't seem very interested in garnering mortal worshipers or the affairs of mortals
Primordials seem to most mortals as "alien and uncaring"
Ao didn't chuck primordials in with the rest of the gods in the Time of Troubles
Primordials have been referred to as "powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might" - implying they're more physical than spiritual (FRCG)
Primordials fought the gods in the days before the Days of Thunder
Does whether these beings can or can't grant spells alter any of the above that differentiate gods from primordials? In my opinion, it doesn't.
The spells granted by primordials
Another question to consider might be what the nature of clerical magic is in the Realms. This is not something I'm an expert on, but I have imagined it as mortals praying for "divine beings" to cause certain effects the world, and in the Realms the Weave is an intermediary (when it is present). So, what it requires is a being powerful enough to cause these effects on the world - this might be a god, it might be a primordial. It could even be argued that this might be why primordials couldn't grant spells in 4e (if such a thing were definitively true) - because they were so used to granting spells through the Weave!
Note also that they are listed as deities in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, as there were in 3e and 2e, and thus can presumably grant spells.
An interesting thought experiment might be: what about warlocks? Arguably they are granted spells by a powerful patron - for instance, an archdevil such as Mephistopheles (or even a cambion like Lorcan) can allow warlocks to cast spells. Should a primordial not be able to do what a cambion can?
Perhaps a more interesting question might be: are the spellcasting followers of primordials not clerics at all - but warlocks? Faiths and Avatars, for better or worse, does have them having priests and specialty priests and such at various times - but what if these were actually all warlocks thinking they were priests.
I'd be inclined to follow the previous method of thinking - that primordials are "divine beings" that can grant spells, but they are not the same as gods. Deities (gods and primordials) have clerics, whereas warlocks can be in a bargaining agreement for power with basically anything - but it's a different sort of arrangement to that of a priest or cleric. Clerics need to keep the favour of their deity through regular prayer and devotions, whereas warlocks just need to make themselves useful - or sometimes all they need to do is keep to the letter of their pact agreement.
ie.
Deity = divine being such as gods and primordials
God = deity arising from stuff of Outer Planes
Primordial = deity arising from stuff of Inner Planes
Edit: Consider that even Orcus and Baphomet are "deities" in the Forgotten Realms by Faiths and Pantheons, and thus can presumably grant spells. Even past this, I don't think being an outer-planar being is prequisite to granting clerical spells.
On the WotC forums
I believe that these conversations existed, but I don't give them much weight. If it's not in a published book, (or said by Ed), it's not canon - it's authors giving their opinion on things. These opinions haven't gotten past the editorial process, and they're often given by people that don't understand the Realms from top to bottom - there are very few people that do, so editing and running things past Ed is very important. In this case, it seems that what they said went and contradicted the lore of Faiths and Avatars. Although I think my Weave-retcon mentioned above might be able to explain away that, I am still of the opinion that if it isn't published, it isn't canon. Not every Realms faithful expects to have to read forums to get the world, but they do expect to have to buy all the books.
Oh, and regarding warlocks and patrons. You just hit on something I was wondering about kind of with binders in 3e. Just why are religions so adamant about wiping out binders? Granted most of the vestiges as presented are twisted evil things, but there could just as easily be good trapped spirits... it just didn't fit the mold they were trying to setup (note there was an alternative product put out by someone with more vestiges that dealt with this and the idea of spirit/shamanism/pact magic that was really good for 3.5).
So, are warlock patrons and vestiges reaching into some kind of power furnace that's similar but different than what the divine deities do? Could it be that many gods started out doing this, until they had enough faithful that they could suddenly "upgrade" their "system" and now instead of making binders/warlocks/shamans/witch doctors... they instead make "clerics" or "druids". Maybe they don't want to see other binders, because this is a way for a new sun god to earn his way up and start stealing faith energy from them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 16:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
What about Ubtao? I realized the Father of the Dinosaurs now suddenly got considered an Primordial. He even got an outer realms spot for his followers to go in the afterlife, so he got all things a FR god is supposed to have. Druids, Clerics and an official Afterlife for his believers.
Didn't know Spelljammer gave all access to 1. and 2. level spells. Nice to know, in case some players leave FR with a cleric on a spelljammer! 
Maybe, just maybe.... Ubtao did something like Asmodeus did. Maybe he merged with a deity. Maybe he even did it so that the deity could live.
Also, a good question to ask is WHEN did Ubtao get an outer plane realm? Was it right after the ToT when Ao gave the Mulhorandi gods an outer plane? Was it after the 2e to 3e conversion where many other gods (such as Siamorphe, but a lot of other demigods that were planar bound) suddenly were given outer planar realms? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 16:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
My take is that Ubtao is a primordial, but like the the 4 elemental lords, he didn't lose the Dawn War, and was thus not shipped off to Abeir. The FRCG explains this, saying that he betrayed the primordials to side with the gods. So, he's still a primordial (came from the Inner Planes originally etc), but he was able to remain on Toril and have worshipers. Powers and Pantheons sets him out like their other deities (having clerics etc), because he is another deity (by the definition I gave above, anyway) - he has worshipers and can grant his priests powers. He's just a primordial, not a god.
My guess re: his Outer Planar dominion is that following the Dawn War the Inner Planes were no longer safe for "Ubtao the Deceiver" - the powers there would destroy him in vengeance if they had the chance. So, the gods allowed him to have a domain in the Outlands of the Outer Planes. He's a very special case - see his writeups in P&P and the FRCG about his relationship with Dendar the Night Serpent to see why the gods seem to value him so much.
...we got a bit off track from talking about the Jhaamdath pantheon, didn't we!
As for Ubtao, I always just ignore, which I shouldn't. In 1e,2e and most of 3e he was 'just some local deity down in Chult'. The GHotR drew some attention to him, and so now people notice him. I'm not sure I like him as primordial - its not a perfect fit - but I guess he is 'primal'. I may just use what you say, but put a slighlty different spin on it, based on previous lore: gods who access to the Weave can use it as a 'spell delivery system'. We've established this already, and it was even discussed a couple of times in Ed's thread. It was also surmised that it wasn't the only way for a deity to do this, but it was the easiest (thus, 'the gods' no longer had to be as 'hands on' as they once did). Cyric didn't understand this when he was first 'elevated', so he thought there was no other way to interact with his followers. This is all (quasi-)established, in that we had to figure all of this out because some things didn't make sense, and as I said, there was 'much discussion on the topic' back in the day (with input from Ed as well as other writers). So basically, Primordials CAN grant divine magic spells, but they have to do so using The Weave, and if they are denied access to that (as we assume all of Abeir is/was), then it all works. Deities do not "need to ask permission" from Mystra - thats a misconception. They only need The Weave if they want the 'easy way out' (Think of the primordials as being a 'legacy' program running on the operating system - you need to use an emulator to get them to work right; The Weave IS that emulator).
Keeping to this analogy (one I like to make quite often, because its a pure-logic based system, and if it works for computer-tech, it can work for our 'gods'), The Weave is Windows - its just a graphic user interface, and it makes 'computing (spellcasting) fun & easy'. There are older, harder methods out there to 'do magic' (other languages = other systems of magic, and Assembler is basically the 'primal magic' of the universe, and the most difficult to use). Elminster, BTW, sees all those "1's and 0's" (like Neo in the Matrix - he can literally 'see' the Weave and manipulate it directly. He does so in at least one novel).
SO, if we mortals are the 'users', then most of us can't deal with gods (the hardware?) directly - we need the GUI (The Weave). So old 'legacy' gods like primordials need the Weave to interact with us. Newer gods got kewl stuff like DirectX and optimized drivers. 
As for the thread 'going off-track'. Not really, not at all. I gave it the name I did knowing full-well where these threads go, and wanted the broader category so we COULD ramble on with different theories. We were choking-up at least four threads with this talk, and I want it all in one, chaotic place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2017 19:28:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 17:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Ah, I actually have a candidate for possibly to be known in Jhaamdath: Chronos, human god of time, patron of Yuir (now an aspect of Labelas Enoreth). It is possible to place the Yuir pantheon in Jhaamdath, too, if one want to have dead or wanished minor gods there.
He would make an EXCELLENT candidate, especially if my theory about the Chondathans actually being derived from an interloper 'Dathite' (Mediterranean) culture holds any water (there was a hint of that in one product, but that was it).
The Yuir Totems I like to keep as the last vestige of the original Fey (NOT elf) pantheon that was worshiped by the Green Elves of Toril (which would include the dark Elves), before the arrival of the High Elves (Gold, Silver, and I suppose Mithral). and were maybe even worshiped by 'early man' in Faerūn as well (after the draconic empires collapsed, the humans would have most-likely followed the elves lead, being the only other civilized culture around they could 'look up to').
Although, I suppose we could spin it in reverse - that Chronos was always Labelas to begin with; that (D&D) Earth humans got him from (D&D) Earth elves at some point (who may or may not exist on that version of Earth anymore*). He would have had all different names on Earth (like most of our gods did), and when the (theoretical) 'Dathites' went to Toril (abducted by Imaskar), they wound-up on a word where that god was already known, but as Labelas (which may or may not be his original name - he may have been a primordial that even the elves began to worship.
Although I have him as one of the 'big bads' of the universe - one of the first 11 (really twelve) 'Supernals' to have split-off from THE God (but its not an old man with a beard - its the universe itself, almost like a combination of 'The Force' and Marvel comics' Eternity). Without time right at the beginning, nothing would have gotten done.
However, I consider all those overpowers 'Ordials' - the 'Ordials of the Prime' (Material), or 'primordials', are just the lowest tier, so it could easily be confusing to mortals, who couldn't even begin to imagine something seevral tiers higher than 'The Gods'. Basically, each Supernal corresponds to a dimension (in RW Physics), so the number is flexible (because physics is uncertain as well). They are basically the sentience of a dimension itself, and are the most primal of the 'rules of the universe' (Physics). All the 'Ordials' are the rules of the universe - what we here call 'the sciences'. They are called 'Ordials' because they brought Order from chaos, after the first consciousness separated itself form the primal soup (GOD - or 'the universe' - from the Elemental Maelstrom that pre-existed the universe). They are literally 'the thoughts in god's mind', personified (and as I said, my version of 'The God' - both IG and RL - is something more akin to 'the Force', so don't get your knickers in a bunch if you don't like the concept of an 'all-powerful god', because its not really the same as what religions claim it to be).
Oh, and its not 'Good'. It actually pretty damn neutral. Its sole purpose, really, is to continue to exist, for its own benefit. This is why every creature in this (or rather, the D&D) universe has 'selfishness' - self-preservation - at its very core. We are all little bits of the greater. And easy to corrupt - that why Cthon - the FIRST of many - sits outside the universe, plotting and planning (at least, planning as best as 'pure chaos' can LOL), and has corrupted a myriad of gods, and trillions upon trillions of mortals. He taps into that primal selfishness and exploits it.
Now I am bordering on RW metaphysics, so I'll stop. You may have noticed I am neither an optimist, nor a pessimist. I am a realist. Things 'just are'. And yet, I still mange to believe in 'something greater'. Go figure.
*EDIT:
This one line gave me an idea for a novel/story. Where did Earth's 'fantastic creatures' all go, and why? I know other (some very good) fantasy authors have tackled this before, but my idea was more science (fiction) based. The idea is to tie 'The Weave' (so every planet should have one) to leylines and the planet's electromagnetic field. Altering said field would have a devastating effect on magical beings living on a planet.
The name of my novel? Dwarves are from Mars, Elves are from Venus.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2017 19:37:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 17:35:20
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| I'll agree with Markustay here. On THIS thread, let's just take it where it takes us. Its good concept throwing around. While I'd love to nail down who the Jhaamdath pantheon was, I'd more enjoy discussing the metaphysics of these magics instead. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 17:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't recall their being any sort of 'afterlife' for people who worshiped the elemental Lords, but then again, I'm far from being a Planescape expert. Usually, people go to the Divine Realm of their god, but do the Elemental guys even have their own Realms? I mean, aside form having some sort of domicile with the elemental planes.
Just did a REALLY quick investigation - when you die (in FR), you go to the Fugue, where you 'recognize' an agent of your god and go with them (and if you don't have a deity, then you are 'stuck', or go with a fiend...). Now, it specifically says that you go to the deity's realm in the Outer Planes. Elemental powers live in the Inner Planes - there is NO 'afterlife' there, as far as I can tell (and like I said, it was a super-fast look-through of the 3e setting guide). So, if I were to follow your rules, Starshade, Elemental powers are 'gods', but not deities (god has just become a generic, catch-all term for anything over exarch-level of power... and 'Exarch itself is a catch-all for anything not mortal, but not quite a full god - so, most powerful outsiders). 'Afterlifes' only exist in the Outer Planes.
I hadn't even thought of that - nice catch!
So, maybe those who worship elemental lords spend an afterlife as elementals? Maybe this is even how some tasked genies are formed?
I like your other ideas that were in the post above this one (although with heresies, I think a god would still 'answer the call' in most cases, and if it was a really bad heresy, maybe one of that god's enemies is doing it).
But genies I picture being 'the foreman' back when the universe was being created. They were probably the lowest tier of 'named' workers. I like mortals becoming fiends, because there is some RW folklore to go with all that, but people becoming genies? I'm just not seeing it... unless they are stupid enough to wish for it. Nowadays, they don't have much to do - not too many Crystal Spheres being made these days (although we do have that one scene from the 'gods' novel where Lathander IS trying to get Chauntea to go with him to see an new universe being formed... which is pretty confusing, because who/what is doing THAT?)
I found that whole scene really weird and disturbing. Lathander was like a horny Milf-hunter, and Chauntea was like the grandma slapping his hands away. It just felt... creepy.
Anyway, genies have grown bored (except, I guess, when some Supernals get together and decide to create a whole batch of new Crystal Spheres), and thats why they get in so much trouble now. I think there whole 'Wish' shtick goes back to that time when they were 'the builders' (I was in construction my whole life, and I am picturing the Primodials being like homeowners, hiring contractors - "I'd like some mountains over there (*POOF* - Mountains!), an maybe a lake over there... (*POOF* - Lake)".
But now you got me thinking - where could they have come from. I had assumed they were just created by the Primorialds (or rather, my over-group of Ordials), but maybe they are actually physical manifestations of the demiurge? Although they seem to have come from 'the stuff' of the elemental Planes itself, just like other Elementals, there is definitely something very different... almost 'noble' (as in 'nobility', not as in 'chivalrous') about them.
Perhaps the were Elemental Lords first attempt at creating races?
And I just realized something - I have it (in my HB lore) where the Elemental Lords were tasked with creating the mortal races (although, the whole concept of 'mortality' didn't really exist back then). Basically, they had to create races that could survive in the ecosystems they created, by themselves, with little to no real power, just by 'struggling' with the natural world. It was some sort of 'grand experiment' - to see if being could could 'evolve' on their own, without 'godly' interference. They probably tried several times, and made a lot of mistakes - they would have no idea how strong or weak they should make them - the balance had to be perfect. many probably just died-off (couldn't survive), whole others were maybe too powerful and didn't passed the basic requirements - I can see the Elementals Lords arguing, "Oh, come on! We only gave them THREE 'free passes' (wishes) each - you want them weaker than that?!" 
So they settled for races that all had the ability to somehow 'change' themselves to deal with life's challenges. The first four Creatori could do so in a physical sense, but the last - humanity - internalized the changes. They were highly adaptive because they could pick things up easier, and build things to counter those challenges. That goes with the D&D rules - that humans are just more adaptive than other races (and thus, are STILL the most successful of all the races - they can survive ANYWHERE, and practically anything).
They were the 'pet' race of the Gaea (life), before she sacrificed herself by merging with the dying Ymir (the Prime Material). They are 'the Race of Destiny' (there's something about the Gith and illithids in all that, but I don't want to really go off on a side-side-side tangent). Gaea, you see, is the missing 'Fifth Element'. Over the years, many others have stepped-up to take her place, but none have ever become as powerful as the other elemental lords (that covers the fact that many Eastern philosophies still have a 'Fifth Element'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2017 19:39:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 19:20:37
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As for warlocks, I don't really know enough about them. I didn't like the 3e version, but I hear they did cool things with them in 4e.
But once again, I can see that just being a Feat - connecting to 'something' to siphon its energy off. Perhaps instead of 'Divine Conduit', just rename it 'Spirit Conduit', or some-such ('Energy Conduit' sounds too modern, methinks).
Of course, I'm still approaching this as a 'classless' system problem. I just turn the four base classes - Fighter, Mage, Cleric, & Rogue - into 'aptitudes'; Combat, Magic, Channeling (or 'spirituality'), and Stealth. You take levels of those instead of having class levels, and everything builds off that (there are 'synergies', like Combat and Channeling, so you could build a paladin-type character). Then everything else - like spells - become skills you need a prerequisite aptitude in.
Hmmmm.. If I reorder them, and change Channeling/Spirituality to 'Theology' (I don't love it), I could have a game system called C.A.S.T - Combat, Arcane, Stealth, & Theology. I find anagrams VERY important in marketing - Fallout's system is called S.P.E.C.I.A.L. and its absolutely brilliant (Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility and Luck).
"The CAST© system allows you to build an entire cast of characters - anything you can imagine, you can be". Something like that. Maybe if TEGG is still planning a game system, they should talk to me.
EDIT: The only problem with that is that I have been considering adding a fifth - some type of 'Mentalism' discipline.
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@Wooly (and whoever else) - Did you ever read the excellent Screwtape letters by C.S.Lewis? It demonstrates something very similar to what you put forth: that 'outsiders' (demons & devils in that work) come to Earth in an intern-like relationship. They get a mortal 'client' (someone they attach themselves to) and 'work on them'. The whole book is letters back and forth between the young Demon Screwtape, and his Uncle (his sponsor) Wormwood. Its a pretty cool read (even if your not into the whole religious angle of the thing). Screwtape gives his uncle updates, and Wormwood gives him advice about corrupting mortals. I'd recommend it to anyone who runs - or plays in - fantasy RPGs. Its a great take on Devils. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2017 16:21:29 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 14:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Random thought of the day (and it goes here, because I can't think of anywhere else it could possibly fit):
As I am doing my map research, I come across things like this: "such-&-such was built on top of the ruins of an earlier settlement... which, in-turn, was built on top of an even earlier settlement..." (ad infinitum, 'cause its The Realms). So I laughingly thought to myself, "maybe the planet used to be really tiny, and they just keep building on top of everything". And then my mind immediately jumped to Underdark - something unique to D&D settings.
What if... the Underdark used to be the surface? 
What if 'The Gods' (Ao, whatever) just keep piling on new raw material - locales from other worlds, or whatever. Even powerful mortals do this (summoning material from the elemental planes and elsewhere to build stuff). This is sort of what happened to Miyeritar - it got BURIED (notice the entire moor is surrounded by high cliffs). So what if Corellon didn't really 'drive the dark elves underground', but rather, buried them alive? 
Except, the persnikity bastiches survived... and they're pretty upset about things.
Now all of that is kind of silly (is it, though?), but it does make me wonder, with all this 'building on top of stuff', are there any FR settlements that have so many layers of ruins below them that the bottom layer goes all the way into the Underdark? Is this whats happening in Calimshan in some of the lore - the Drow are literally living in some of the truly ancient ruins of Coramshan, long buried (by Tidal Waves and what-not)?
Is the Underdark really just "Faerūn's Basement"? 
P.S. - I did mention some 'god stuff' here, so it sort of fits with the very wide-ranging thread topic. 
I had a thought along these lines with one of my many heretical hypothesis. Essentially, since in Norse mythology IIRC the Elves/Dwarves were something a bit more akin to the Drow, and toiled underground creating magical weapons for the gods... What if Corellon and the Surface Elves were the ones exiled/banished/rebelled instead of the Drow?
There has always been the question of "Why do Drow have all these special abilities if they were Cursed by Corellon?" Well, if all the surface elves were originally Drow... and had to give up their magical abilities because Corellon was the one that was really cursed/exiled that would make some sense... AND since we've already got some traction on the whole "evil sun god" thing with Pelor/Amaunator. That lends some credibility to the idea that Corellon's elves were willing to be "evil" and forsake their heritage to be able to be on the surface and see the Sun. Nothing too firm or fully though out on this, but it's been rolling around in my head for a while now. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 16:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I had a thought along these lines with one of my many heretical hypothesis. Essentially, since in Norse mythology IIRC the Elves/Dwarves were something a bit more akin to the Drow, and toiled underground creating magical weapons for the gods... What if Corellon and the Surface Elves were the ones exiled/banished/rebelled instead of the Drow?
There has always been the question of "Why do Drow have all these special abilities if they were Cursed by Corellon?" Well, if all the surface elves were originally Drow... and had to give up their magical abilities because Corellon was the one that was really cursed/exiled that would make some sense... AND since we've already got some traction on the whole "evil sun god" thing with Pelor/Amaunator. That lends some credibility to the idea that Corellon's elves were willing to be "evil" and forsake their heritage to be able to be on the surface and see the Sun. Nothing too firm or fully though out on this, but it's been rolling around in my head for a while now.
In my stuff I did for the Elven Netbook (Elves of Faerūn) project, I wrote that while Corellon cursed them, Lolth blessed them - she turned their weaknesses (like their new aversion to light) into positives.
I said she had given them their special vision*, and also a connection to Faerzress, which gave them their unique powers. The fact that they are smaller than other elves was just evolution - larger drow (who can't move as freely in confined spaces) would not have lasted as long as smaller, more lithe/agile drow ('survival of the fittest').
I then had to write a 3 or five level 'paragon path' to give them back those powers in 3e (which is why I am now a big fan of race-specific feats for racial abilities - it alleviates the need to do that silly EcL{sp?} thing to have a powerful PC race).
And although I like your hypothesis, there is one major snafu - Elves receive sustenance from the sun, similar to how plants do. Thats in the CBoE. This is why elves held in captivity for too long 'wither and die'. The only way to rectify that is to do what I did, in reverse - say that Corellon 'blessed them' by turning their aversion to sunlight into nourishment instead.
*In that article, I wrote that drow have a 'nictitating membrane' in their eyes, like a second, translucent eyelid, which allowed them to switch between their regular vision and Infra vision, and by only partially closing it, they could have the Darkness vision introduced in 3e. I think I also postulated that perhaps this was something unique to only certain groups of drow (thus leaving it open as to which a DM preferred to use). It wasn't a perfect solution, but its the only way to get all the lore to stay cohesive (Menzoberranzan had a heat-based clock, and it they no longer had infra-vision, a major part of that city's lore would have been obliterated).
More than a few people were not happy with that solution, but I invited them all to come up with a better way to explain the changes between editions. I'm still waiting... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2017 17:58:51 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 11:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) Torm's appearance during the ToT was a purely cosmetic thing. (...)
IIRC, in the avatar novels, while Torm was surrounded by priests who kept him from seeing the world around him - in an "ideal" environment - he used his powers to awaken a golden lion statue. When alerted about the coming of Bane he decided to fight for the mortals and protect the city, and so he needed to gather all of his power. So, he absorbed the living statue and his human form merged with it; that's why his form was a golden skinned man with a lion head. After that, he turned giant, growing in size after the sacrifice of many who gave their lives to save their city and loved ones. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 13:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) Torm's appearance during the ToT was a purely cosmetic thing. (...)
IIRC, in the avatar novels, while Torm was surrounded by priests who kept him from seeing the world around him - in an "ideal" environment - he used his powers to awaken a golden lion statue. When alerted about the coming of Bane he decided to fight for the mortals and protect the city, and so he needed to gather all of his power. So, he absorbed the living statue and his human form merged with it; that's why his form was a golden skinned man with a lion head. After that, he turned giant, growing in size after the sacrifice of many who gave their lives to save their city and loved ones.
If this isn't a perfect example of how "the story" changes in our heads over time, and thereby how it might change in the minds of the "actual" people living in the realms in just a short time. I read these stories back in what... late 80's or early 90's? So, its almost 30 years later, and I'd totally forgotten that detail. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 13:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) Torm's appearance during the ToT was a purely cosmetic thing. (...)
IIRC, in the avatar novels, while Torm was surrounded by priests who kept him from seeing the world around him - in an "ideal" environment - he used his powers to awaken a golden lion statue. When alerted about the coming of Bane he decided to fight for the mortals and protect the city, and so he needed to gather all of his power. So, he absorbed the living statue and his human form merged with it; that's why his form was a golden skinned man with a lion head. After that, he turned giant, growing in size after the sacrifice of many who gave their lives to save their city and loved ones.
Ah, but if he had the ability to make the statue so much bigger, he could have changed the head to something else, as well.
And there had to be a reason that statue was handy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 00:14:52
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Precisely, Wooly. I would just say that there was a lion-statue in Torm's temple because that was an older, more primal representation of the god, thus just reaffirming the theory he may have a relationship to Asl... Nobanion.
As I think I said above, I would spin him as an exarch of the ancient primal power - a 'saint' that humans would feel more at home worshiping. When the original 'Lion God' left Toril (maybe during the Sundering, or possibly later), he left behind his Chosen, and Torm was among them (and may be the only survivor, or other Faerūnian powers may also have been ex-Chosen of Nobanion... although I think that name/alias is only a recent affectation).
When the 'Beast King' god returned (which may have had to do with the fall of Mystryl, or the Dawn Cataclysm), Torm was already a full Greater God in his own right. The two would have a good relationship, but that's probably as far as it goes. In other words, its been so long that its probably not even possible to simply reabsorb that power back into himself (without a major fight), and why would he want to? Two 'gods of good' are better than one.
EDIT:
Okay, we know who Nobanion is... what if his main purpose is to build worlds? He represents the raw 'physicality' of nature, whilst Larue represents the primal energy of it. Although 'the Gods' build the worlds/spheres, they use him as a sort of 'catalyst' to help congeal the proto-matter (the regathered bits of the first World) into planets. He also shows up whenever there is an instability within the sphere, in order to use his power to 'reset' the structure to a more stable environment (so, whenever there is 'cosmic chaos', like during the ToT, or Spellplague, or the other two major events I mentioned above). He's like the 'template' that they can roll things back to.
That fits with his nature in FR, his "on again, off again" appearances, what we know of his 'true' nature, and also his relationship with Larue (the two aspects of the Prime Material - Elements & Energies). He's the dude who can make a streetlamp grow like a tree.
He's 'Creation' personified. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 May 2017 00:23:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 04:42:36
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I started thinking about our buddy Aumanator today, while reading about Amun-Ra in a National Geographic magazine (while sitting in a doctor's office waiting for my mom). Amun + At'ar = Aumanator. This lends credence to the theory that maybe Amaunator is just a northern alias for the Pharonic deity Ra (or a conjoined deity with another - At'ar).
I've become infatuated with the idea of Ushas being At'ar. We know that the Vedic Pantheon is active in the Malatra region (southern Kara-Tur), and some aspect may have worked its way into Bedine mythos back when the Bedine were still in Zakhara (there is a region where Zakhara and K-T meet, around Tempat Larang, where 'cultural contamination' was most likely). This deity has names in several different mythologies, and in Old English she was known as Źostre, which is where we get 'Easter' from. Its about rebirth, and Lathander seems to be about rebirth (his own, Aumanator's, the stuff with the Dawn cataclysm). Perhaps At'ar/Ushas was absorbed by Amun-Ra to become Aumanator, and when they split again (perhaps that was what the Dawn Cataclysm was really about? A self-regeneration?), She became Lathander and took on a male aspect (a holdover from being part of Amun). Perhaps 'Lathander' is from some language and means something important (the Left hand of Aumanator, while Amun was the right hand?)
So we get this cryle of death & rebirth with the sun deities, which is actually an old theory - I'm just pasting some new stuff to it. That 'Eostre' is also a Dawn Goddess, and also symbolizes rebirth (Easter) is very cool, since the pantheon seems to undergo some sort of 'cosmic rebirth' whenever Lathander stirs the pot (perhaps even recently - he/she came back, and that caused the chain-reaction which allowed all the others to return). It would be really cool if they spun Lathander as female in 5e. I think it would be a fresh take on things, and also help to further separate it from Aumanator (who may just be Amun-Ra at this point, without his At'ar half).
This all ties into my theory that pantheons are mostly a mortal creation, because they help with religion, but amongst the gods themselves it probably means very little (just 'clubs' they belong to, in most cases). In D&D, we should just toss the whole concept out when we are speaking in terms of the Over-Cosmology (Great Wheel/Planescape). Gods take whatever forms they want, whatever aspects they want (so they can appear as totally different beings in other pantheons), and can basically do whatever they want. 'Good' or 'Lawful' deities/Arch-somethings might stay true to alliances/friendships they've made (those pantheons), but even when there are familial connections between them (and what does that really mean, exactly, when we are talking about sentient nuclear reactors, in essence), they could form hundreds - if not thousands - of these types of connections. The 'web' of Machiavellian politics in the Upper Planes would be serpentine, indeed.
So I think much of what we read - of what we 'know' - be it from FR sources, other D&D sources, and even RW mythological sources, is just human misunderstanding of the great 'Celestial Bureaucracy' (I think the Asians might have come the closest to whats truly going on). Its all one huge mega-pantheon, with 'cliches' and 'clubs' and temporary alliances all over the place. Think of like Washington D.C. on a cosmic scale (I guess fiends would by lobbyists LOL). Its weird, because while I like to have an unlimited number of choices when it comes to deities (I allow just about everything), at the same time, I think the actual number of wholly different Powers is much smaller than folks realize - thats its the same large group over and over again, in different incarnations. Its mortal religions that add all the trappings to it all.
And on some level (apologies in advance if this offends anyone), that would mean Jesus = Lathander as well. 'The Sun/Son', with the 'father' being the 'High God' (Amun-Ra of the Pharonics, or the conjoined being Aumanator).That brings in the whole Easter/rebirth thing in even tighter. I could even elaborate further here, but I feel I may have already crossed a line. Still, its interesting to make connections between Nobanion (Aslan) and Lathander now, as well (the arrival of one heralds the arrival of the other - more rebirth?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 May 2017 03:37:06 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 20:15:27
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Just going to chime in briefly here. I have enjoyed the theological discussions I have been a part of in these halls, but I'm behind the conversation again lol. They happen so fast!
While I am not wholly against the idea of the gods being "aspects" of each other (the sun god being one deity in truth but manifesting differently across cultures), I tend to lean more towards the idea of them each being separate deities (there being a separate sun god for each culture/religion). I could be wrong, of course. They're gods, after all, and often beyond our mortal understanding, but I think they are each their own "person", if you will. I haven't dug through the lore as extensively as some of the scribes here have (honestly, I'm impressed, whether I agree or not), but based on what I do know, I tend to think of each pantheon as its own. Gods are among my favorite features of the Realms, so that is likely influencing my opinion (the more the merrier, lol).
Now, this doesn't mean pantheons can't be taken in/absorbed by others. We have seen this happen, but as a whole I think each god is its own entity. Even if it was "created" by an overgod of sorts, it has since taken on its own personality, with its own goals. Of course, when they appear before mortals, they pick a form we understand (thus avatars), and they may or may not actually be "humanoid", though they can take on that form even among each other, as we have seen.
In my RW theological musings, I used to think that maybe the gods of the various polytheistic religions were aspects of each other, manifesting differently based on culture/religion (Zeus was also Ra and Odin, for example). But now I am more inclined to believe they are in fact each separate "supreme" deities of the various faiths. The same applies to the Realms.
EDIT: I'm not totally adverse to certain deities being aspects of each other, at least at one time. Or, they were once one deity (like Tyche), and then were "split" and became their own entity. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 May 2017 23:03:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 22:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I started thinking about our buddy Aumanator today, while reading about Amun-Ra in a National Geographic magazine (while sitting in a doctor's office waiting for my mom). Amun + At'ar = Aumanator. This lends credence to the theory that maybe Amaunator is just a northern alias for the Pharonic deity Ra (or a conjoined deity with another - At'ar).
I've become infatuated with the idea of Ushas being At'ar. We know that the Vedic Pantheon is active in the Malatra region (southern Kara-Tur), and some aspect may have worked its way into Bedine mythos back when the Bedine were still in Zakhara (there is a region where Zakhara and K-T meet, around Tempat Larang, where 'cultural contamination' was most likely). This deity has names in several different mythologies, and in Old English she was known as Źostre, which is where we get 'Easter' from. Its about rebirth, and Lathander seems to be about rebirth (his own, Aumanator's, the stuff with the Dawn cataclysm). Perhaps At'ar/Ushas was absorbed by Amun-Ra to become Aumanator, and when they split again (perhaps that was what the Dawn Cataclysm was really about? A self-regeneration?), She became Lathander and took on a male aspect (a holdover form being part of Amun). Perhaps 'Lathander' is from some language and means something important (the Left hand of Aumanator, while Amun was the right hand?)
So we get this cryle of death ^ rebirth with the sun deities, which is actually an old theory - I'm just pasting some new stuff to it. That '#274;ostre' is also a Dawn Goddess, and also symbolizes rebirth (Easter) is very cool, since the pantheon seems to undergo some sort of 'cosmic rebirth' whenever Lathander stirs the pot (perhaps even recently - he/she came back, and that caused the chain-reaction which allowed all the others to return). It would be really cool if they spun Lathander as female in 5e. I think it would be a fresh take on things, and also help to further separate it from Aumanator (who may just be Amun-Ra at this point, without his At'ar half).
This all ties into my theory that pantheons are mostly a mortal creation, because they help with religion, but amongst the gods themselves it probably means very little (just 'clubs' they belong to, in most cases). In D&D, we should just toss the whole concept out when we are speaking in terms of the Over-Cosmology (Great Wheel/Planescape). Gods take whatever forms they want, whatever aspects they want (so they can appear as totally different being sin other pantheons), and can basically do whatever they want. 'Good' or 'Lawful' deities/Arch-somethings might stay true to alliances/friendships they've made (those pantheons), but even when there are familial connections between them (and what does that really mean, exactly, when we are talking about sentient nuclear reactors, in essence), they could form hundreds - if not thousands - of these types of connections. The 'web' of Machiavellian politics in the Upper Planes would be serpentine, indeed.
So I think much of what we read - of what we 'know' - be it from FR sources, other D&D sources, and even RW mythological sources, is just human misunderstanding of the great 'Celestial Bureaucracy' (I think the Asians might have come the closest to whats truly going on). Its all one huge mega-pantheon, with 'cliches' and 'clubs' and temporary alliances all over the place. Think of like Washington D.C. on a cosmic scale (I guess fiends would by lobbyists LOL). Its weird, because while I like to have an unlimited number of choices when it comes to deities (I allow just about everything), at the same time, I think the actual number of wholly different Powers is much smaller than folks realize - thats its the same large group over and over again, in different incarnations. Its mortal religions that add all the trappings to it all.
And on some level (apologies in advance if this offends anyone), that would mean Jesus = Lathander as well. 'The Sun/Son', with the 'father' being the 'High God' (Amun-Ra of the Pharonics, or the conjoined being Aumanator).That brings in the whole Easter/rebirth thing in even tighter. I could even elaborate further here, but I feel I may have already crossed a line. Still, its interesting to make connections between Nobanion (Aslan) and Lathander now, as well (the arrival of one heralds the arrival of the other - more rebirth?)
I personally prefer to link Lathander as a god of the Aearee (the Phoenix) who has interloped from Maztica.
Your idea though of Amon + At'ar is something I was talking about last month. I like the idea that "it" was another "two-faced" deity that got separated out, possibly by Moander's corruption (creating the twisted goddess At'ar, and casting Amon into the place where vestiges go). However, let's go back to one of your earlier theories for a moment... what if Amon is a Primordial of Fire with ties to the Sun and At'ar is the goddess who helps him channel divine energy, such that together they appear as Amaunator.
If we were to also link Amon to Ra, then perhaps the death of Ra at the hands of Gruumsh (-1071 DR) was a precursor to the death of Amaunator.... in other words, maybe Amon was serving as a conduit for two different gods in two different pantheons (i.e. At'ar and Ra)... and when Ra died, Amon lost a lot of worship energy and started floundering (and we know the sun eclipsed). Then throw in Utu dying in the same year against the orc gods (and maybe Utu also had a shared bond with Amon).
We then know that Horus-Re took over as the "sun god" for the Mulhorandi, but maybe he was really only a god of light with no control over the sun. Or maybe he turned to an entirely different fire primordial for power over the sun.... such as Kossuth?
So, what if in the midst of all these issues, some other powerful being casts Amon (or possibly pulls Amon) into the place where vestiges go? What if it even happens during the Karsus debacle? This could explain why Amon hates Karsus. If it were Eurynome who pulled Amon into the place where vestiges go (because he aided the gods against the Titans), that could also explain THEIR enmity.
During the time while Amon was weakening from only having At'ar feeding him divine energy (so like from -1071 DR to , perhaps Lathander spread from the Aearee pantheon (where Lathander was an aspect of the Phoenix... or maybe the Phoenix is a primordial entity of fire) into Jhaamdath and other areas of Faerun.
So, when the primordial Amon is cast into the place where vestiges go, then At'ar must find another primordial to help her by being her conduit to the sun. She turns to Kozah (a primordial power of fire and other elements who may or may not be Talos at the time)... or maybe Kozah and Eurynome do something to TIE her to Kozah, whom she weds. Kozah begins gaining the divine energy of people worshipping the sun. However, Kozah's corrupting influence she finds repugnant, and she pleads with Jergal for death. Jergal agrees to grant her death if she will "breed" with him (thus the whole story of her slipping into his tent at night). Jergal ends up granting her death, as she is "reborn" in Lathander/the phoenix (having granted her divine energy into Lathander much as Ra did with Horus-Re).
So, what happened? Well, in 1374 DR, apparently some follower of Lathander, Daelegoth Orndeir, recovers the Shard of the Sun, a holy relic of Amaunator. Daelegoth then casts a powerful ritual Amaunator's Eternal Sun that effectively creates a second sun in Realmspace. This possibly frees Amon? It may have also have done something to Lathander due to his previous linkage to At'ar.
On a slightly interesting aside here... it is kind of interesting to me that around the time that a new orb/conduit of "growth"/"light" energy appears in the realms, a conduit of "destruction"/"blackness" was also released shortly thereafter in the form of Entropy. There's possibly several twists that could be opened with this, especially with the idea that at the same time Talos disappeared, and when Amaunator goes away, Talos comes back and Entropy is caged again.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 May 2017 23:29:47 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 23:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I started thinking about our buddy Aumanator today, while reading about Amun-Ra in a National Geographic magazine (while sitting in a doctor's office waiting for my mom). Amun + At'ar = Aumanator. This lends credence to the theory that maybe Amaunator is just a northern alias for the Pharonic deity Ra (or a conjoined deity with another - At'ar).
I've become infatuated with the idea of Ushas being At'ar. We know that the Vedic Pantheon is active in the Malatra region (southern Kara-Tur), and some aspect may have worked its way into Bedine mythos back when the Bedine were still in Zakhara (there is a region where Zakhara and K-T meet, around Tempat Larang, where 'cultural contamination' was most likely). This deity has names in several different mythologies, and in Old English she was known as Źostre, which is where we get 'Easter' from. Its about rebirth, and Lathander seems to be about rebirth (his own, Aumanator's, the stuff with the Dawn cataclysm). Perhaps At'ar/Ushas was absorbed by Amun-Ra to become Aumanator, and when they split again (perhaps that was what the Dawn Cataclysm was really about? A self-regeneration?), She became Lathander and took on a male aspect (a holdover form being part of Amun). Perhaps 'Lathander' is from some language and means something important (the Left hand of Aumanator, while Amun was the right hand?)
So we get this cryle of death ^ rebirth with the sun deities, which is actually an old theory - I'm just pasting some new stuff to it. That '#274;ostre' is also a Dawn Goddess, and also symbolizes rebirth (Easter) is very cool, since the pantheon seems to undergo some sort of 'cosmic rebirth' whenever Lathander stirs the pot (perhaps even recently - he/she came back, and that caused the chain-reaction which allowed all the others to return). It would be really cool if they spun Lathander as female in 5e. I think it would be a fresh take on things, and also help to further separate it from Aumanator (who may just be Amun-Ra at this point, without his At'ar half).
This all ties into my theory that pantheons are mostly a mortal creation, because they help with religion, but amongst the gods themselves it probably means very little (just 'clubs' they belong to, in most cases). In D&D, we should just toss the whole concept out when we are speaking in terms of the Over-Cosmology (Great Wheel/Planescape). Gods take whatever forms they want, whatever aspects they want (so they can appear as totally different being sin other pantheons), and can basically do whatever they want. 'Good' or 'Lawful' deities/Arch-somethings might stay true to alliances/friendships they've made (those pantheons), but even when there are familial connections between them (and what does that really mean, exactly, when we are talking about sentient nuclear reactors, in essence), they could form hundreds - if not thousands - of these types of connections. The 'web' of Machiavellian politics in the Upper Planes would be serpentine, indeed.
So I think much of what we read - of what we 'know' - be it from FR sources, other D&D sources, and even RW mythological sources, is just human misunderstanding of the great 'Celestial Bureaucracy' (I think the Asians might have come the closest to whats truly going on). Its all one huge mega-pantheon, with 'cliches' and 'clubs' and temporary alliances all over the place. Think of like Washington D.C. on a cosmic scale (I guess fiends would by lobbyists LOL). Its weird, because while I like to have an unlimited number of choices when it comes to deities (I allow just about everything), at the same time, I think the actual number of wholly different Powers is much smaller than folks realize - thats its the same large group over and over again, in different incarnations. Its mortal religions that add all the trappings to it all.
And on some level (apologies in advance if this offends anyone), that would mean Jesus = Lathander as well. 'The Sun/Son', with the 'father' being the 'High God' (Amun-Ra of the Pharonics, or the conjoined being Aumanator).That brings in the whole Easter/rebirth thing in even tighter. I could even elaborate further here, but I feel I may have already crossed a line. Still, its interesting to make connections between Nobanion (Aslan) and Lathander now, as well (the arrival of one heralds the arrival of the other - more rebirth?)
I personally prefer to link Lathander as a god of the Aearee (the Phoenix) who has interloped from Maztica.
Your idea though of Amon + At'ar is something I was talking about last month. I like the idea that "it" was another "two-faced" deity that got separated out, possibly by Moander's corruption (creating the twisted goddess At'ar, and casting Amon into the place where vestiges go). However, let's go back to one of your earlier theories for a moment... what if Amon is a Primordial of Fire with ties to the Sun and At'ar is the goddess who helps him channel divine energy, such that together they appear as Amaunator.
If we were to also link Amon to Ra, then perhaps the death of Ra at the hands of Gruumsh (-1071 DR) was a precursor to the death of Amaunator.... in other words, maybe Amon was serving as a conduit for two different gods in two different pantheons (i.e. At'ar and Ra)... and when Ra died, Amon lost a lot of worship energy and started floundering (and we know the sun eclipsed). Then throw in Utu dying in the same year against the orc gods (and maybe Utu also had a shared bond with Amon).
We then know that Horus-Re took over as the "sun god" for the Mulhorandi, but maybe he was really only a god of light with no control over the sun. Or maybe he turned to an entirely different fire primordial for power over the sun.... such as Kossuth?
So, what if in the midst of all these issues, some other powerful being casts Amon (or possibly pulls Amon) into the place where vestiges go? What if it even happens during the Karsus debacle? This could explain why Amon hates Karsus. If it were Eurynome who pulled Amon into the place where vestiges go (because he aided the gods against the Titans), that could also explain THEIR enmity.
During the time while Amon was weakening from only having At'ar feeding him divine energy (so like from -1071 DR to -339 DR) , perhaps Lathander spread from the Aearee pantheon (where Lathander was an aspect of the Phoenix... or maybe the Phoenix is a primordial entity of fire) into Jhaamdath and other areas of Faerun.
So, when the primordial Amon is cast into the place where vestiges go, then At'ar must find another primordial to help her by being her conduit to the sun. She turns to Kozah (a primordial power of fire and other elements who may or may not be Talos at the time)... or maybe Kozah and Eurynome do something to TIE her to Kozah, whom she weds. Kozah begins gaining the divine energy of people worshipping the sun. However, Kozah's corrupting influence she finds repugnant, and she pleads with Jergal for death. Jergal agrees to grant her death if she will "breed" with him (thus the whole story of her slipping into his tent at night). Jergal ends up granting her death, as she is "reborn" in Lathander/the phoenix (having granted her divine energy into Lathander much as Ra did with Horus-Re).
Hell, maybe even Lathander is the "child" of Jergal and At'ar (with At'ar "dying" while giving birth to Lathander) and "the Phoenix" was involved as well. Thus was "born" the 3 part sun heresy (Jergal as dusk, Phoenix as dawn, and At'ar as the noon sun). It might also explain Lathander's interest in births.
So, what happened? Well, in 1374 DR, apparently some follower of Lathander, Daelegoth Orndeir, recovers the Shard of the Sun, a holy relic of Amaunator. Daelegoth then casts a powerful ritual Amaunator's Eternal Sun that effectively creates a second sun in Realmspace. This possibly frees Amon? It may have also have done something to Lathander due to his previous linkage to At'ar.
On a slightly interesting aside here... it is kind of interesting to me that around the time that a new orb/conduit of "growth"/"light" energy appears in the realms, a conduit of "destruction"/"blackness" was also released shortly thereafter in the form of Entropy. There's possibly several twists that could be opened with this, especially with the idea that at the same time Talos disappeared, and when Amaunator goes away, Talos comes back and Entropy is caged again.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 May 2017 23:39:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 00:18:48
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And I just realized I had NOT listed the Phoenix amongst my bird folk deities of Katashaka. Interestingly, the story of Heresa Hesi kind of ties well with the Phoenix. Heresa Hesi on earth is a South American entity known as the Vulture King who was beautiful because he hid the jewels of the sun, moon and stars in his feathers. Then the great puma beat him up and made him give them up. Heresa Heri then goes off to the darkness of some cave. Heresa Hesi has some ties to death, so the idea that "the sun" is "born" from "death"... and throwing in that its all bird deities. Its all story and allegory, but it kind of fits.
What I'm throwing in my stuff for Katashaka.
The Phoenix, lord of Rebirth, youth, renewal, dawn, and fire said to once have been held prisoner in a gem by Heresa Heri, the Vulture King, the Phoenix was released by the great Puma. As a result, the Phoenix is worshipped by both bird and cat folk. It is said that the great griffins, lammasu, sphinxes, and even such lesser creatures as tressym and other winged cats can be linked to the Phoenix.
Heresa Heri, The Vulture King: god of the night sky, gem magics, disease, and death. It is believed that he once hid the sun, moonlight, and starlight as gems amongst his feathered headdress, and with them, he was the most beautiful bird of all. He was forced to release these gems through threats by a great puma, and he has never forgiven the cat folk since.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 04:23:55
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@CorellonsDevout and Sleyvas - Lathander = rebirth = 'The Phoenix' all still works.
Part of my Over-Cosmology musings is that these beings - in their natural state - don't actually look like what mortals see them as. In fact, their true forms might be 'beyond mortal ken', so when we mortals gaze upon them (or rather, their Avatars), what we are actually seeing is an illusion/projection within our own minds that 'masks' the true form which our brains can't handle (I'm starting to touch upon some of my RW theories on things like cryptids and paranormal phenomena). What this means is we have to throw out the entire concept of 'sex' for these beings; they might have a preference how they appear to their faithful (maybe based on the time they were mortal themselves), but I would imagine many of the more ancient powers would be androgynous. Thus, Lathander IS 'rebirth Incarnate', and in that can be Ushas, representing the rising sun each morning, and also The Phoenix, and even Jesus. Its a concept given sentience. WE mortals give it (physical) form when we choose to worship it.
So, if all that is true (the "gods are unknowable"), then everything we know about pantheons CorellonsDevout can also be true, in regards to mortal perception. Those 'rules' (the actual folklore/dogma of the mythos itself) will hold true whenever they manifest to a particular group. Loki might appear as Loki to folks worshiping the Norse pantheon, or as 'Coyote' amongst other cultures, or even as a gnome, or a small dragon (I don't feel like looking up those names). Since our perceptions are tainted by our preconceptions, people (mortals) will see and experience what they expect to (including the level of 'evil' they see in the god).
Thus all versions/pantheons can be true - and be unique from world to world or even from region to region - and at the same time there would be this 'Archtype' in the Great Wheel that would represent all these varying aspects. In FR - or any setting/region for that matter - the mortals would not understand any of this, so what we read in the setting guides - or RW mythology texts - IS true (for those people). It doesn't matter if a dozen or more sun Gods on Toril are really 'the same guy' somewhere up the foodchain, because it has no bearing on the setting at all. This 'Over-Cosmology' thing is more for Planescape/The Great Wheel, which has almost nothing to do with the day-to-day lives of mortals in The Prime Material. It doesn't really matter to the folks of Krynn if Takhisis is Tiamat or not.
The same, and yet different, all at the same time. We can have our cake and eat it too. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 May 2017 17:45:20 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 06:04:54
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Your point about the gods being "sexless" goes along with one of the points I made in my previous post. They appear to mortals in forms we understand. The Seldarine, for example, are often depicted as both male and female, though they often "appear" as one or the other, as a "preferred" form.
As I said, I am not entirely adverse to Markustay's idea, I just like the idea of a "broad" pantheon, if you will, and not just for mortal perception. Or, (I'll use the sun god as an example) perhaps there was originally one sun god, and it diverged into multiple entities, and these entities became individuals, so they are only now marginally connected to the original sun god (in this case by the fact that they represent the sun). So, Lathander is a different deity from the other sun gods (with the exception of maybe Amaunataur. I haven't fully figured that out yet), and he is his own "being", but he is connected to the other sun gods in the fact that he came from the original "overgod of the sun". This allows for the gods to be different entities with different personalities, but still connected by an overgod. And, since some of the gods created the races, and thus came before mortals, then the mortals couldn't have "conceived" them. The race's culture is shaped by the deity as much as the deity may be shaped by the culture.
For immigrant deities, it -could- be explained by the entities/aspects of the original overgod moving to another world, and by this point they would be separate enough from the overgod. In the case of deities being absorbed by other deities, they could be absorbing other "aspects" of an overgod, if we continue with the overgod idea. Another reason I prefer the "broad pantheon" approach is that there are different ways gods can be created. The overgod concept might explain the existence of the older deities, but deities can also give birth to other deities, and mortals can become deities. It's not a "one size fits all", and I think it is even more complicated than deities all being aspects of each other. Again, I am not completely adverse to the deities stemming from an overgod of sorts (like an original deity of the sun), but, as I stated in this post, they got to the point where they are separate deities, with their own personalities (to the point where they could even rebel against the overgod, if they chose), even if they represent the same thing (the sun in this case) and have similar portfolios. Because the gods are "unknowable", then it makes equal sense that they are in fact each their own being, and the deities in each pantheon are separate from the deities in other pantheons who have similar portfolios. Because the planes are in fact vast, and they allow for the existence of multiple sun gods, whether an original sun overgod created them, or whether they came from something else entirely. So, even if they did come from a single entity of the sun at one point, they are no longer tied to that being. They have their own followers, belong to their own pantheons, realms, etc.
Overgods do come into play at some point, of course (Ao, for instance), but I'm going back and forth on the idea of the deities stemming from a more "condensed" pantheon of overgods, which then created more deities. It isn't my go-to, but I'm open to it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 14 May 2017 15:53:23 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 12:44:02
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| There is a lot of theoretical work one could do on gendered and sexless deities, specially due to real mythologies often got genderless, or ambiguous origin deities. In real life, its often the creators, titans, first gods of chaos powers who is dual gendered or androgynous. The later "ordered" gods and goddesses got real genders. And D&D's Primordials, and a lot of the chaotic or monstrous deities certainly fits! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 19:02:08
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I don't think we are seeing things all that different CorellonsDevout - I think in MANY cases, these 'Aspects' break-off from the main deity (in much the way sub-species diverge into entirely new species over time through evolution) and become 'their own thing'. For example, in the case of Herne and Malar both are aspects of some more primal 'Hunter God'. Malar seems the closer of the two to the archtype, while Herne seems to have become more 'civilized' and is something humans would have felt more comfortable worshiping. Both of these gods seem to be multispheric themselves*, and over time (untold millennia) the two have diverged so much they don't even recognize each other as the same being anymore. Hence the scene in Elaine Cunnigham's Evermeet novel where Malar kills Herne (and yet, we have evidence of Herne being around at a much later date in The Realms, so that was simply one version of 'Herne' that one version of 'Malar' killed and absorbed his power). In fact, we might even assume that the Malar in that story (because of the other events taking place) was THE Malar - The primal hunter archtype, who was simply 'collecting' some of his wayward (and offensive to him) aspects. The further an aspect is separated from the original, and the more time mortal religion has to shape the aspect, the more it becomes its own, new deity. If all this holds true, then part of the 'cosmic Struggle' of the gods includes them keeping track of all these "minnie-me's" running around, and them trying to keep their faiths 'on-track' (because divergence would lead to a break-away, and a loss of power). This could be one reason why most gods just concentrate on one, or just a handful of worlds, rather than try to be everywhere at once - even a God would have limits to how much control it could exert over its own faith when they are spread thin like that. The tighter the focus, the tighter the control. It may be that Bane lost control of Toril for a time when he became multispheric, and thats why Xvim was able to seize his church. That would go a long way in answering the question: "Why don't all gods go multispheric?" (for the same reason why human empires tended to crumble when they spread themselves too thin).
I can't believe my footnote was longer than my post - sorry. 
*I don't even like the concept of 'multispheric' anymore. Let's think of Gods as 'Supers': One of their powers is to create autonomous clones (so maybe Naruto Ninja? LOL). They are constantly creating these things (and I think the power-level of them is completely adjustable - the ones written-up in 2e were just the 'standard model') to send out on various missions (liaisons, battles, impress the Faithful, etc). They normally just real them back in when they are done, but some are on 'deep' assignments, like developing a following in a new sphere. After a time the Archtype god repairs/recovers the loss of that bit of power, and it may even forget about that Avatar after awhile (after all, they are literally thinking of thousandss of things all at once - (D&D) gods are NOT infallible). They may even think they 'lost it' - that probably happens a lot. Some local power kills the avatar for stepping on its turf. They are so used to this attrition that they probably just shrug it off (these uber-multispheric archtypes, I mean). But some of these Autonomous Avatars may have just diverged so far from the original they break-away, and become something new.
My point is, that the whole 'multispheric' thing as we've known it in the past is a sham, really. It never really worked right even in 2e. 'The Gods' in Planescape, for the most part, should be the archtypes, and the ones that are sphere-specific are precisely that; clones of the original operating on their own. The trick for these archtype gods is to try and keep these Avatars as close to their original selves as possible, and that means more 'hands on', which is a juggling game, considering everything else a God has on its plate (so only a very foolish - or ancient - Power would try to spread into more than one new sphere at a time). So now that Bane is back in FR (that happened in 3e, didn't it?), that may have just been the Archtype (Core) Bane sending another avatar to Realmspace to reestablish control over his church. That doesn't make our (FR) Bane any less real, it just means its connection to its Great-Wheel self isn't as cut-&-dried as we once thought.
And I can definitely see how all of this would rub Realms fans the wrong way, because for you guys its all about FR, and the D&D/TSR/WotC stuff is secondary. But for someone like me, who 'came over' from another setting himself (does that make ME an interloper? ), I have to try and reconcile all this 'multi-world' over-setting stuff with what we know of local (setting-specific) lore AND RW mythology. 2e did a bang-up job with Planescape, but I think it could be better. If anything, it adds a whole 'nother level of intrigue to the Cosmology (powerful beings trying to subjugate/absorb/corrupt avatars of other beings, etc). Just picture Shar corrupting a version of Lathander - Darkhander. That would be pretty cool, no? I even recall a canon story (I think by Ed!) wherein an avatar of Mystra (I think) was captured by Sharites who were trying to 'corrupt' it. So maybe I'm not very far off base with all of this. Maybe if you corrupt enough 'pieces' of an Archtype God, you can corrupt the God itself (some sort of negative feedback loop). Another reason of why gods need to be VERY careful how thin they spread themselves.
Just more food for thought. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 May 2017 19:14:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2017 : 23:59:24
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So now I am thinking of 'The Great Game' of the cosmos being played-out by the gods is akin to Risk, or more like one of those more complex wargames where certain 'territories' are worth more than others.
So basically, if we think of it in terms of Risk, the more territories you control (spheres you spread into), the more 'units' (Avatars) you can create. The more Avatars you can create, the more you can spread... but you run the risk of spreading too thin. DvR would be your unit-limit (how many 'pieces' you can put on each territory). You can only max-out at 20 in any one place (which works as a great equalizer - it doesn't matter how ancient or powerful a God is, he still has the same upward limit as anyone else... mostly.. of how many 'units' (Avatars/DvR's) he can use in a sphere. Gods like Mystra might learn to 'cheat' (meta-game?) by hiding some DvR's inside mortals (Chosen/demipowers), to artificially increase their DvR potential beyond twenty (Mystra min-maxes! She's a Power-Gamer!)
But what about 'production boosts'? Those territories you can take (in some games) that give you extra production? (in this case, Elan Points, which is what I call the energy of 'Faith'). Well, a High-Magic world would probably give you a boost, but why would that be in terms of how it all works? Well, suppose a god gets 1 Elan pt. per day per level of the mortal, on average (there are hundreds of other factors, but lets call that the 'base' for someone who has a God and pays it the minimum amount of lip-service per day). A High-Magic world tends to be a 'World of Heroes', so in most instances those are the ones that would be the most sought-after. A magically-dead world, like our Earth, probably isn't much of a prize (although it may have once been). Not a lot of High-Level characters running around here, in D&D game terms.
On the other hand, population probably also plays a large part. Even if you are getting the bare minimum per person, a planet with an extremely large pop. might be desirable whether it has magic or not. (so maybe Earth is still being fought-over?) A planet like Toril (or Oerth, or even tiny Krynn) has not only tons of humans, but has dozens if not hundreds of other intelligent races that could qualify as 'worshipers'. Of course, maybe there is also a 'quality' thing in regards to species as well (after all, one human worshiping you should be worth a dozen or so kobolds). Now I'm thinking about dragons - 'High level' in regards to pure power, but they aren't really all that great about the worshiping thing. Thus, the average human might be worth more elan than a powerful dragon (or maybe just the same, and humans outnumber dragons thousands to one).
So faith-wise, human worshipers might be the 'best bang for the buck' in regards to gods wanting followers. Dwarves and Elves would follow close behind, but they've got their own specific pantheons and are somewhat xenophobic. Gods making 'Grand Moves' in the multiverse, trying to take-over entire spheres (pushing-out, destroying, or absorbing other similar gods), and then you'd have things like Fiends that could be random unknowns (like barbarian raiders in some games, that don't belong to any other player but can still cause you some damage).
And now I'm thinking I want to play 'Great Wheel Risk' (Plaescape Risk?)
It might also make a helluva CCG... Hmmmm.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2017 00:08:01 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2017 : 23:16:36
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| just a note, your formula for elan needs some work. It should be something like the square or cube of the character's level, or some other formula that's not linear and gives much more of a boost for having powerful followers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2017 : 02:25:17
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Its just real basic. It gets multiplied by how much actual 'Faith' the character has. Just being level twenty shouldn't provide that much more than level one unless you are actively promoting your deity: ie., "Blood and souls for Arioch!"
My favoritist character of all time used to scream that every time he went into battle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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NieveMac
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 09:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Precisely, Wooly. I would just say that there was a lion-statue in Torm's temple because that was an older, more primal representation of the god, thus just reaffirming the theory he may have a relationship to Asl... Nobanion.
As I think I said above, I would spin him as an exarch of the ancient primal power - a 'saint' that humans would feel more at home worshiping. When the original 'Lion God' left Toril (maybe during the Sundering, or possibly later), he left behind his Chosen, and Torm was among them (and may be the only survivor, or other Faerūnian powers may also have been ex-Chosen of Nobanion... although I think that name/alias is only a recent affectation).
When the 'Beast King' god returned (which may have had to do with the fall of Mystryl, or the Dawn Cataclysm), Torm was already a full Greater God in his own right. The two would have a good relationship, but that's probably as far as it goes. In other words, its been so long that its probably not even possible to simply reabsorb that power back into himself (without a major fight), and why would he want to? Two 'gods of good' are better than one.
EDIT:
Okay, we know who Nobanion is... what if his main purpose is to build worlds? He represents the raw 'physicality' of nature, whilst Larue represents the primal energy of it. Although 'the Gods' build the worlds/spheres, they use him as a sort of 'catalyst' to help congeal the proto-matter (the regathered bits of the first World) into planets. He also shows up whenever there is an instability within the sphere, in order to use his power to 'reset' the structure to a more stable environment (so, whenever there is 'cosmic chaos', like during the ToT, or Spellplague, or the other two major events I mentioned above). He's like the 'template' that they can roll things back to.
That fits with his nature in FR, his "on again, off again" appearances, what we know of his 'true' nature, and also his relationship with Larue (the two aspects of the Prime Material - Elements & Energies). He's the dude who can make a streetlamp grow like a tree.
He's 'Creation' personified.
One small point of order to you and Woolly: according to Tantras, the second book of the Avatar trilogy, the lion statue in question was brought to Torm's temple by his priesthood from a ruined and abandoned temple of Waukeen in the city. So as much as you make some very interesting connections between Torm and Nobanion via the lion statue and Torm's lion-headed avatar he created from it, I'm afraid the statue itself says nothing about Torm's possible primal origins or a connection to Aslan. Why Waukeen had such a statue in her temple is never explained, although I would guess it has to do with the fact that as goddess of merchants and money she would naturally have an affinity for anything associated with the upper class (lions=kings) or riches in general (lions being usually gold-colored). Or perhaps it's because of her appearance, which has always seemed vaguely Egyptian to me.
That said, there is another possible connection between Torm and Nobanion, or at least something which could explain Torm's avatar and his affinity for lions besides bravery and nobility fitting the god of paladins. Champions of Valor details the magical artifact known as Chalsembyr's Heart, named for the kingdom where Torm served when he was a mortal. The sword was created by clerics of the faith to help locate Chalsembyr (many Tormites believe their deity has hidden the location as part of a test of their faith, and that if they find it they will receive great wisdom and divine power). And one of this artifact's most prominent features is a leonine motif--where the cross guard and blade meet is the raised head of a lion face-on on one side and in profile on the other, and the cross guards themselves are lion's paws. So perhaps lions were part of the heraldry or coat-of-arms of Chalsembyr and this is why Torm has a connection with lions. Chalsembyr predates the arrival of Nobanion on Toril, but perhaps his more primordial self still has a connection with the kingdom... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 15:23:02
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Given this information.... that Bertold's seekings of Torm's original kingdom while holding Chalsembyr's Heart led him down to the southern section of the Eastern Shaar... well, it kind of makes me wonder if the kingdom of Chalsembyr wasn't down in the Shaar.... and even, was he possibly not even human. Maybe he was a wemic. At the same time, many of the Mulan gods also have ties to lions, so while I'm not saying he might be an interloping Mulan god.... he might have come from an area where lion motifs were very much part of local religions. We also know that his first mention is in -256 DR in regards the start of the spreading of the teachings of the Adama down in Durpar (where its said that the Adama faith promotes several gods ethos).
From GHotR entry for -256 DR
Belief in the Adama promotes the tenets of the faiths of Zionel (Gond), Curna (Oghma), Lucha (Sźlune), Torm, and Waukeen.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 18:50:55
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Well, the thing is, Torm is curiously a Norse name, short form of Tormod/Tormodr, literally "Thor's Courage", or "Thunder's Courage".
Torm's mutal kill with Bane, also reminded me of various mutual kills during the Ragnarok (which the Time of Troubles a bit was) - Tyr and Gramr; Thor and Jormungandr/the Midgar Serpent; Loki and Heimdall.
Torm's rebirth, and elevation, can in turn be compared to Baldr's return and elevatio (if Torm's elevation is kinda lesser).
So Torm in many ways come of to me as Tyr's own version of Thor, seeing Tyr is something of a father figure to Torm. And while Tyr is the main Paladin and Lawfull Good Power, Torm seeims more popular, at least in some ways, like Thor was more popular than Odin in some ways. We even had Torm take over Tyr's position, like Thor did a few times in Marvel comics.
Especially that some think Tyr, is on some level, the same deity as Odin, the god/power just having two faces (just war (Tyr) and unjust war (Odin)). This is based on Mitra-Varuna dvanda, as these two were technically two separate gods, yet so closelly connected. With Tyr being Mithra, and Odin - Varuna.
Multiple of Odin (many) names had "Tyr" in them, possibly further cemeting the connection between them, but it's sommewhat problematic, as Tyr can as well refer to any god, as it literally means "God". Although I did find researchers tying some to Tyr specifically - like Hangatyr - the Hanged God/God of the Hanged, which not only alluded to Odin being hanged from Yddgrasil, but also him coming to the hanged crminals, getting information from them before death. The thing is, this aproaches of Tyr's sphere of influence - justice and law.
This though, connects a bit to Durpar, seeing the "Vedic" connections I mentioned above.
So I allways thought of Torm as a human worshipper of Tyr, from somewere (hence posibly even the name). But in context, Torm could could been originally a wemic, but I think he allways had a connection to Tyr, and is an ascended worshipper of The Maimed God... |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Mar 2018 21:15:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2018 : 21:59:16
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Interesting.
I think this is a perfect time to apply Occam's Razor - we already have a 'long lost {fallen} kingdom' in the eastern Shaar - Veldorn. Just because its called that now (since the monsters took it over) doesn't mean that was always its name. So lets say Chalsembyr 'fell' for whatever reason, and then some 'shady types' took it over, but eventually their own monstrous allies took it from them, and it became 'The Beastlands'.
There is some cool stuff down there we could possibly connect it to, like The Castle of Al'Hanar. What if those knights were originally Tyr's or Torm's, and they were 'perverted' by Myrkul (or Jergal)? Like maybe there was a Paldin-esque kind of kingdom blossoming down there, but it was short lived (a century or two), before the 'forces of evil' moved against them, and at the same time, there was 'rot within'. Something like that.*
And then a few survivors may have fled toward Ulgarth, which would explain the European-like feudal culture going on there, when there is nothing like that anywhere else in the area.
Also, we have 'Norse' (Northmen) in that region, in the Utter East. Konigheim was settled by them. There is even a Northmen operating out of the Corsair Islands down in Zakhara (Al-Qadim canon).
So, after reading some deeper stuff about the Norse creation myths, there was actually a trio of gods (Aesir) who 'built the cosmos' Odin, Vili & Ve. Everyone always seem to forget about the other two. Since Odin represents 'The Sky', I would hazard to guess the other two may have represented earth/firmament (Midgard) and 'The Waters'. Nothing I read - it just seems strange to me the Norse would have had these three, when just Odin would have sufficed. Unfortunately, almost nothing is known about them. So here's my current thoughts (barely the tiniest fragment of an idea) - I've equated Nobanion and Lurue to two integral parts of 'the Creation'. They may even be vestiges of something else. So what if Vili & Ve are just Norse=specific names for the 'Lion and the Unicorn"? So they go about the D&Dverse collecting the 'Cosmic Soup' into Crystal Spheres; Lurue representing 'Raw Magic', and Nobanion representing Will (the concept of forcing 'Law' onto something - to bring forth order from chaos, which ties him to the whole Lion/Royalty thing). Not sure what part Odin plays, then, but perhaps Odin = Ao? Nobanion/Aslan forces matter and energy together into a ball, Lurue 'blows on it' to breath life into it, and as it coalesces in a Crystal Sphere, Ao(din) sets the rules or whatever? Something along those lines? Thus we have Odin, Vili, & Ve creating the Spheres after the Arch of Heaven (and the First World) were destroyed.
Of course, then in my own Overcosmology I'd have to make the three of them Eternals, because thats way too much power for a normal 'God' (but still less than necessary for a Supernal). Norse Odin seems to be all-powerful at times, and fairly weak at others. its confusing. A dude that can create a universe definitely outclasses Marvel-Odin (maybe - they did some stuff with the Aesir after I stopped reading - there was some sort of 'Council of High Gods', or some-such).
*EDIT:
I just realized - 'Medieval Knights' in a Middle-Eastern like region sounds a LOT like the Knights Templar. Maybe there is an 'Ark of the Covenant' type relic hidden down there somewhere in old Chalsembyr? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2018 22:02:55 |
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Jhaamdath Pantheon and 'all things cosmic'
