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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 21:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not a fan of the whole 'parallel evolution' thing - it was used in ST:tOS way too much. However, going with what Wooly just said (which sounds like my decade of proselytizing certain concepts has paid off  ), perhaps we can come up with a psuedo-scientific explanation for it.
Sure, parallel evolution makes no sense in a nominally scientific setting, but in a completely fantastical setting, with powerful gods and wizards? Seems like a perfect explanation to me. :)
We already have canonical parallel creation with Krynn anyway.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
Edited by - AuldDragon on 05 Mar 2017 21:23:09 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 23:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My thinking is that either there was a single, primal world (or sphere) where everything was done before, and then spread from that single common point, or that after this original place was lost, the same templates created there were just used over and over. Why create something wholly new when you've already got the plans for a proven working model?
On that idea, another name for core-4e's world is the "First Work".
quote:
From the Dungeon Master's Guide (4e), p160
The world has no proper name, but it bears a wide variety of prosaic and poetic names among those people who ever find need to call it anything but “the world.” It’s the creation, the middle world, the natural world, the created world, or even the First Work.
The dates of core-4e also give us some flexibility with how we use this "First Work": as pointed out in the main post, core-4e is supposed to take place less than 10,000 years after the Dawn War, lining up in FR with either the Days of Thunder or the Dawn Ages, depending on exact timing. So, that "First Work" could well have been destroyed long ago if that fits your personal cosmology, and I don't think you'd have to change anything.
At the moment I quite like the idea of the races (that date back to the Dawn War or before) all migrating in different ways from the First Work, and ending up on Abeir-Toril. The humans came through a portal in the Days of Thunder, the dwarves fought their former masters the giants from world to world until they ended up in those southern mountains near Zakhara, the elves migrated from their destroyed home of Tintageer in the Feywild, etc... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 01:09:47
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Well, for the most part, Oerth's cosmology is Planescape (The Great Wheel).
I have no idea about Krynn; my DL knowledge is just a very light understanding of some of the core concepts (and when it comes to Takhisis, I am totally confused).
In what way do we have 'parallel evolution' with Krynn? Are you talking about the ogres, because I figured-out a work around for that years ago (very simple really, and OD&D gave me the idea - in that setting, Ogres were goblinoids). My conclusion: 'Ogre' is just a generic, cross-setting term for any 'big brutish race' that arises.
FR even has three major groups of them, and only two are related (AFAIK).
The other races are easy enough, even the kender - just 'regional variants'. I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.
Hmph... maybe 'halflings' are the real race, and WE are just 'half-giants'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 03:10:57
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| Halflings weren't the real race in Dark Sun? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 04:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It also occurs to me that maybe the Far Realm (a concept I really hate, BTW) could have been the origin of all things. Maybe the Far Realm was once relatively normal, but then something was released or went wonky, and everything that could fled into the D&D multiverse and made sure to close the door behind them.
I feel your pain. I've rage against all the 'Lovecraftian' stuff that has been shoveled into The Realms since the end of 3e.
However, you seem to also be like me, in that you are 'coming around' to seeing the usefulness of some of that kind of lore, especially regarding the 'Time before time' kind of stuff, and the Obyriths, and the Godwar (what we FR fans used to call The war of Light & Darkness... which is a mouthful... and may not even be precisely the same event). I prefer t to remain in the 'distant past', with a lot of it below the surface (literally, like Aboleths, etc). I've never been a fan of Cthulhu stuff, but I know enough to know it works better when its all left mysterious, and NOT so damn overt (you know, like giant flying Aboleth cities, etc). You can't get that 'creepy' feel when you've turned Cthulhu into a Kaiju.
Well, I'm still undecided as to whether or not to even accept primordials -- I really dislike everything about the whole Abeir/Toril retcon, and that includes primordials.
And honestly, I'm going more from Spelljammer lore than anything else, which posited a panspermia theory for why the basic D&D races and critters keep appearing all over the place. And honestly, it's always made more sense to me, that way.
The Far Realm connection is for me a new idea... But since I'm not a fan of the Far Realm, it's more a "hey, this is an idea" thing than a "here's my theory" thing.
It'd not be the first time I put a new spin on something or speculated about something I didn't actually like or support. It's more of a thought exercise thing, for me. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 08:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, for the most part, Oerth's cosmology is Planescape (The Great Wheel).
Greyhawk's history is pretty light more than five hundred years prior to the present of the setting; about all that's known is that the Suel and Baklunish empires destroyed each other at some point, and the descent of the drow happened at some point too.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have no idea about Krynn; my DL knowledge is just a very light understanding of some of the core concepts (and when it comes to Takhisis, I am totally confused).
Dragonlance was incorporated into the Great Wheel pretty quickly after its publication. In Dragonlance Adventures, it basically only mentions three locations, with absolutely no details; one of those is "The Abyss" as the home of Takhisis and the evil gods (and said in Planescape to be a lack of understanding by the clueless of Krynn, using that term to refer to *all* the lower planes). Some have called these three names an independent cosmology, but I've seen no evidence from early material that it was intended to be.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In what way do we have 'parallel evolution' with Krynn? Are you talking about the ogres, because I figured-out a work around for that years ago (very simple really, and OD&D gave me the idea - in that setting, Ogres were goblinoids). My conclusion: 'Ogre' is just a generic, cross-setting term for any 'big brutish race' that arises.
I'm talking about almost every race on Krynn, minus a few that are canonically from elsewhere (such as the Yaggol, who are degenerate illithids), which are either the creation of the gods or alterations of the existing races to new ones by the Greystone of Gargath. Ogres (the original ones, who were beautiful), humans, gnomes, elves, and standard animals were all created by the gods (dragons arose independently from the world itself). Standard ogres, goblins, giants, and minotaurs were bred by and from the original irda-like stock; the Greystone created thanoi (walrus-men) from minotaurs, trolls from giants, and kobolds, hobgoblins, and bugbears from goblins. The Greystone created dwarves and kender from gnomes (who were originally created from human stock by Reorx). Magical beasts such as pegasi and griffons arose from normal animals because of the Greystone. Finally, the Greystone created the dimernesti and dargonesti aquatic elves from earlier elven stock.
Did they "evolve" the way we know it in the real world? No, but they "evolved" in a magical way that mirrored the creation/evolution of such races on other worlds. Astinus of Palanthus recorded at least the Greystone events, so we know they happened. Many of these elements are detailed in Dragonlance Adventures and Tales of the Lance, as well as other early products.
Dragonlance is a co-equal setting; if its canon says that common creatures arose independently there, changing that to fit a unified origin favored by a non-Dragonlance fan places Dragonlance in a subordinate position, and that strikes me as unfair to fans of the other setting. It's the same reason I dismiss the elements of the Complete Book of Elves that states the elves of Krynn were immigrants from off-world; Dragonlance canon overrides non-Dragonlance explanations for Dragonlance elements.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings.
I don't see it as problematic, especially considering Athas had gods at that time.
Local canon supercedes external canon when there's a conflict. There's no canonical Greyhawk origin for most of its races (although there is for some--derro on Oerth were created from Suel experiments for example), and they had their own descent of the drow. But the elves of Greyhawk have no firm origin, so they could be from offworld (although they really don't resemble FR elves, so they can't be from there, or from the same sources as FR's immigrant elves).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 16:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.
Actually, this isn't all that weird. And it is supported by FR Lore, since Yondalla is specifically referenced as the Halfling name for Chauntea. Which means that the Halflings are the race created by Chauntea... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 02:59:09
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| Wasn't Yondalla a separate entity until 4e, when they tried to make some gods "aspects" of other gods? In the SCAG she is listed as a separate goddess, so... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 03:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
We already have canonical parallel creation with Krynn anyway.
Bit of a sidetrek, but does anyone know good resources for learning about the prehistory and cosmology of Krynn and Oerth?
Well, I can help you with Krynn, since it's a world I've been involved with since it's earliest publications.
As for Oerth, I'd recommend the Canonfire site. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 06:47:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, I can help you with Krynn, since it's a world I've been involved with since it's earliest publications.
As for Oerth, I'd recommend the Canonfire site.
I'll have a look at that. I'm looking to create a comprehensive cosmology of the planes for my own FR game, with connections to other known worlds including Krynn, Oerth, and potentially Athas. I think it would be really cool if their histories could be worked into a document to be looked at alongside the history of the Realms. A Grand History of the Multiverse, if you will.
Aligning the Calendars
As far as I can tell from quick searches, the pre-history of Krynn and Oerth doesn't seem to go back more than about ten thousand years. Without knowing anything about the settings beyond the superficial, my guess is that to work them into a multiverse-wide chronology their worlds would have to have been created later than Abeir-Toril. Or, the worlds were there, but the gods didn't start really working with them until later. That is, if you want the meetings of the Three Wizards and such forth to be true (or at least possible), which I do.
From googling about it seems there's contradictory information out there on the corresponding years in different crystal spheres. This source puts 1361 DR was 581 CY on Oerth, and 358 AC on Krynn. Assuming time flows the same in the different spheres (though some sources say that it doesn't), that puts the current year of 1491 DR on Toril as 711 CY on Oerth and 488 AC on Krynn. I know there was once a BRJ resource out there on this, but it seems to be down.
Krynn
This source puts the creation of the world of Krynn at around 10,000 PC (-8,997 DR) - around the same time as the end of the last Crown War and the beginning of the Founding Time on Toril. The creation of mortals seems to occur at around 9,000 PC (-7,997 DR), which is around the time of the arrival of Calim, the Early Dynastic Period of Imaskar, and the Mindstalker Wars in Shanatar. However, other sources don't give a date for the creation of Krynn, so I'm not sure what the situation is.
Is it possible the "Age of Starbirth" and time of creation was actually spread out over a much longer time?
Oerth
As far as I can tell, there aren't really any concrete dates for anything earlier than about 1,000 years before the present day in Greyhawk. The oldest calendar is that of 'Suloise', which would be at 7,006 SD in 1491 DR, or about -5,515 DR at 0 SD. This correlates with the height of High Shanatar and the founding of Jhaamdath's cities. I doubt 0 SD is the creation of the Greyhawk world though.
From what I can tell, Gygax purposefully left Greyhawk's prehistory open to DMs so they could do what they wanted with it. It was blank by purpose, not by neglect.
Athas
I don't really have any idea where to start on this one, it's way out of my wheelhouse and I don't have the energy to tackle it today.
Can they fit?
As far as I can tell, yes. At least I don't see anything that excludes all that Dawn War stuff happening, as irrelevant as it may be to the settings. All three spheres and their worlds may have even been created around the same time as Abeir-Toril, only being populated by the gods much later.
Interested to see what people more experienced with such things have to say. I foresee integrating Planescape and Spelljammer in my future too... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 15:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Wasn't Yondalla a separate entity until 4e, when they tried to make some gods "aspects" of other gods? In the SCAG she is listed as a separate goddess, so...
I thought that equivalency pre-dated 4e (thought I had read it in Faiths & Pantheons)... but, perhaps I am mistaken. It wouldn't be the first time. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 19:00:39
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| I looked at both their descriptions in Faiths and Pantheons, along with Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Avatars, and I couldn't find anything mentioning Yondalla and Chauntea being aspects of each other, unless I missed something. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2017 : 03:33:13
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| My copy of Player's Guide to Faerun finally arrived today! Now I have more references lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2017 : 15:34:49
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| I'm waiting to see that updated theory :D |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2017 : 20:49:35
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Who's? Mine? Or everyones?
@AuldDragon - I actually go with Complete Elves on this one. I think (as in, 'the way I spin things IMG... which actually has ZERO bearing on the game LOL) that 'local lore' is more of 'legends' stemming from the 'dawn of time', which could refer to the very earliest beginnings of civilization on the world, or even some sort of 'racial memory' from the first World (which was destroyed during the Dawn War).
The 'First World' theory goes all the way back to the very first issue of Dragon magazine, in an article written by Gygax himself (under a pseudonym). It was the world that 'all other worlds are mere reflection'of. I'v been running with that for years, building upon it for every cosmology/religion/'Creation theory' both RW and imagined, so it would continue to be all-inclusive. I've shared bits and pieces of that over the years, mostly here, but also for awhile on the WotC site (back in its heyday). I refer to it as my 'Theory of Everything'.
I picture the original 'cosmology' (not really so much a cosmology at that point, as it was 'just the way things were shaping-up) very close to that of the Norse (and Yggdrasil is probably a vestige leftover from that). 'The World' was just one ginormous, flat plane. The Prime Material Plane. Then you had some sort of 'headquarters' for the gods - an early precursor to 'heaven' (the upper planes) that sat 'above the world', and then you also had some grimy 'underbelly' of the universe, where all the crap got dumped, and all the ugly infrastructure got laid (kind of like NYC's subway/tunnel systems... on steroids). This would be our proto-hells (lower planes).
Then in 4e/5e all of this became sort-of canon.I say 'sort of', because there is quite a bit that still contradicts itself, and certainly contradicts prior lore, but basically, it all comes down to some 'first world' that was shattered (Sundered) and split into all the Crystal Spheres (and planes) we see now today. I guess all 'the Gods' (pretty much anything higher than 'mortal level' back then) scrambled to save as much as they could. I like the premise set forth in Guide to Hell - that two Uber-dragons (Gods, really, of an insane magnitude) created the Great Wheel. I believe the story itself is a 'legend', but based on fact.
And not all worlds would have been created at the same time - this is where we can get our differing 'start dates' for the various settings. And depending on the Gods involved (in its creation), different worlds would have different 'rules', like whether it would be an 'open' or 'closed' Sphere. Of course, a lot of that could have aso happened over time (with some Powers getting upset when others tried to interlope on their 'creation'). I think Abeir was created at this time, but I think it was more of a 'leftovers box' - like those legos you didn't use when your built your thingy. Made other worlds had an Abeir-equivalent', or maybe Ao was one of the BBG's and he got handed the bits and pieces of 'scrap' to save for later (and this how we get weird amalgams, like the 4e world of Nerath... which may have even been Abeir). Perhaps Ravenloft is also something akin to this - some half-formed proto-Power trying to grab bits and pieces for itself, to hobble together a world (and who knows? maybe someday Ravenloft will be able to break-free from the shadows, and have its own Crystal Sphere, once there is enough mass).
So, the 'Big Bang' happened a LONG time ago, but its still going on (sort of like RW science, eh?) Piece are still being swapped-around between worlds. As for Toril, it seems to be some sort of 'Cosmic Crossroads', and was probably a piece of that proto-world that had some sort of significance (like the 'Grand Central Station' of that First World?) But ALL worlds we have today (D&D and otherwise, if we go with an 'Omniverse') are parts of that first world, and thus, the in-setting legends of their creations could stem from that first World. Maybe Corellon created elves on one world, but someone else did it on Krynn (which were just huge 'neighborhoods' on that First World). 'The Gods' were building the universe (simple model that it was at that time) - think 'Time Bandits' (and YES, the dwarves were created at that time to help with its constructions, as were the terrestrial dragons & giants).
So the way I look at it, all the individual settings creation-theories and legends are right, up to a point, but are also wrong, because they don't take into account that they were all apart of something greater once. So between THAT, and all the cross-setting immigration (planer, SJ, 'malfunctioning portals', deific interloping, and even mad archwizards stealing entire populations), that is why we have so many similar things on so many different worlds. And despite some planes being 'closed' (Athas, and perhaps Eberron, etc), there still seems to be some cross-pollination, despite an active attempt to stop it.
Who knows, maybe Athas was the Halfling 'homeworld', and that could apply to SJ, but it could also apple to its position on the First World - its where certain gods created the halflings. This is why Hin have become the 'eternal wanderers' - their world became 'burnt out' of magic, and can no longer be reached by normal means.
Of course, that blows my theory that there must be some sort of urchin-like, furry-legged 'Ling' humanoid out there somewhere (fauns?). One that was apparently very charming and had a 'way with women'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2017 21:35:11 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 04:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 05:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who's? Mine? Or everyones?
Everyones. Even if it just theories and fan stuff, it helps me to improve my realmslore, that is sadly very, very minimal. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 09:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.
Githyanki are originaly humans so how could a semi-reptilian evolve from them? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 16:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.
Githyanki are originaly humans so how could a semi-reptilian evolve from them?
They could have wound up somewhere that favored those reptilian features, or they could have picked up some disease that caused those features and then bred true, or it could have been a magical, forced evolution. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 18:26:16
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And as an aside to the whole 'panspermia' (MAN, I HATE that word LOL) thing, I think THE 'Desent of the Drow' only happened once, on ONE World - Toril. I've gone over this many times, in many other threads. Only Elves with the Ilythiir bloodline (which may have been 'different' because it had already been tainted by fiends), were affected, but since ALL elves came from 'Faerie' originally (THAT from the Evermeet novel, and later the GHotR expands on it further concerning the Wood Elves), the Ilithiir bloodline was also spread in the Elven 'diaspora' to other worlds, and all of them were forced to change, even though they had nothing to do with the stuff on Toril (did I mention the Seldarine SUCK?)
But others came to be through the Panspermia thing, both through SJ, and through planer connections. However, in the case of the drow (and few other races of The Night Below), there was a third option - the Underways (The Underland from Beyond Countless Doorways - a most excellent 3rd-party 3e product). I suppose in this post-4e time, I would connect all of that to the Feydark of the Fewild (thus making the 'Underland' a part of the Feywild).
I specifically connected the Greyhawk drow to The Realms - and say they were an even more conservative group of Lloth worshipers (if one could imagine such a thing), that found their way to GH through those Underways, and continue to maintain contact - and trade - with some parts of FR for quite some time, before finally 'losing their way'. I went this way with them in the Elven netbook project (Elves of Faerûn) because there is a list of 'known drow cities' in an FR source (2e DotU) that includes Erelhei-Cinlu, and several drow Noble Houses are also mentioned from Greyhawk... in an FR product. More recently, in a conversion I am currently working on, I plan to reestablish that connection, to explain some of the 'oddness' with placing Nentir Vale in the Forgotten Realms. Hopefully I'll be able to put that up on the DM's Guild.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.
I know - I was just simplifying for brevity's sake (something I almost never do, because this happens LOL). I'm not a fan of psionics (as presented in D&D), but I've always been fascinated by Darksun - sadly, I'v never gotten a chance to play in it. It was a very good example - perhaps the BEST example - of the extremes you can push D&D to when you want to - no generic, 'kitchen sink' setting there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.
Githyanki are originaly humans so how could a semi-reptilian evolve from them?
Because humans themselves evolved from reptiles, who evolved from fish, who evolved from more primitive lifeforms...
and ALL of that is still in our DNA, and accessible, if 'needed'.
Our conscious mind isn't aware of that. Our subconscious only remembers it in a dream. But our reptilian brain - it lives there... waiting.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Mar 2017 18:37:28 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 19:48:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And as an aside to the whole 'panspermia' (MAN, I HATE that word LOL) thing, I think THE 'Desent of the Drow' only happened once, on ONE World - Toril. I've gone over this many times, in many other threads. Only Elves with the Ilythiir bloodline (which may have been 'different' because it had already been tainted by fiends), were affected, but since ALL elves came from 'Faerie' originally (THAT from the Evermeet novel, and later the GHotR expands on it further concerning the Wood Elves), the Ilithiir bloodline was also spread in the Elven 'diaspora' to other worlds, and all of them were forced to change, even though they had nothing to do with the stuff on Toril (did I mention the Seldarine SUCK?)
But others came to be through the Panspermia thing, both through SJ, and through planer connections. However, in the case of the drow (and few other races of The Night Below), there was a third option - the Underways (The Underland from Beyond Countless Doorways - a most excellent 3rd-party 3e product). I suppose in this post-4e time, I would connect all of that to the Feydark of the Fewild (thus making the 'Underland' a part of the Feywild).
Well, this makes sense if you take into account that there is only one Feywild (Faerie) in the whole multiverse (according to the Heroes of the Feywild 4e sourcebook).
EDIT:
The info is on a sidebar called "Many worlds, one Feywild" (p. 10) that explains that the material published in that book and in the 4e Manual of the Planes regarding the Feywild applies to all worlds, official or homemade. Exact quote:
"Whether your campaign takes place in the region of the Nentir Vale, the world of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting or the Eberron campaign setting, some other published setting, or a world of your DM's creation, you can use the material in this book with little or no alteration. For all practical purposes, the Feywild exists as described in these pages (and in sources such as Manual of the Planes) regardless of the mortal world to which it is connected. You can view this consistency as a mysterious property of the Feywild - its features mirror every world at once - or as a convenience to make this material as useful as possible to the game." |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Mar 2017 20:02:19 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2017 : 21:18:42
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I've always had a hard time accepting that halflings could "evolve" into dragons and angels, lol.
Note that Dark Sun lore doesn't explicitly describe "halflings" as the same "halflings" one would find in the Realms or in a Player's Handbook. And Athas has been destroyed over ages, it's been transformed by cataclysms and been wasted away by magical abuses, it's (almost) entirely disconnected from other planes and worlds, it's even suffered from wars and deaths of the old gods (or so they say).
Look at how much the Realms have been reshaped by cataclysms, magical abuses, conflicts and "deaths" of gods. Some of the "old" races were lost or changed, some "new" races were introduced. Dark Sun was always a post-apocalyptic setting, a barren wasteland of a world circling a poisoned sun, all the lore about it being a lush and rich and thriving world is presented in the context of ancient myths. The Realms were always a lush and rich and thriving setting with an ongoing history of change so the changes themselves (along with their impact) seems far more immediate. I suppose it's not impossible the races of the Realms will "evolve" into stronger, harder, smarter versions over the ages - one could even argue that they've already been doing that since they "populated" the Realms in 1E. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2017 : 02:07:37
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| I see the Feywild as having "connections" to multiple planes. Or, at least any plane that has seen "fey" creatures. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2017 : 02:23:23
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An "infinite" Ethereal plane surrounds each Prime. Presumably one could travel between Primes by travelling an "infinite" distance through the deepest fathoms of the Deep Ethereal - but nobody ever has, it's just a hard (and probably futile) option, while one could instead easily use the Ethereal as an interface to the Astral or the Inner Planes, an "infinite" distance and travel time vs an extraplanar "shortcut" towards the destination. Mileage doesn't apply on the planes - nobody can walk an infinite distance (especially when burdened by enough provisions for an infinite journey) but anyone can walk short distances between things like gates and pools and portals.
I imagine the Demiplane of Shadow (Shadowfell) might be similarly "infinite" - except that it's bounded by shadows, mixtures of lightness and darkness, and shadows can only be found in proximity to other places (places with light sources and dark objects, lol). No shadows between worlds would mean no passage through the Shadowfell between worlds - and there's not a whole lot to see in the Phlogiston between spheres, lol.
And the Feywild is also transitive. And the Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) is also transitive. And the Demiplane of Time (Temporal Prime) is also transitive. But they can't just be accessed from anywhere anytime, they can only be reached when conditions are right - indeed, they are sometimes impossible to avoid and will spontaneously manifest when conditions are perfect. But conditions always change, so links to/from these planes also always change. These demiplanes might constantly overlap with the Prime(s), they might always be "moving" in relation to each other, but they are utterly closed off and impossible to access when conditions are wrong.
Yes, there might be "one" Feywild which spans all the worlds of D&D, constantly co-existing on some other "layer" of congruent reality. Worlds lacking links to the Feywild (like elves and fey, sylvan glades, ley lines and druidic stone circles, etc) may never even know the Feywild exists. Many creatures (not just elves, but pixies and brownies and even goblins) have been "collected" from other places by the Feywild or "deposited" to other places from the Feywild.
I think the simplest and best approach is this:
If you consider the Prime Material Plane (ie, a campaign world) to be a unique plane in itself, along with a bunch of Alternate Prime Material Planes (ie, other campaign worlds) then each one should have it's "own" Ethereal and Feywild and Demiplanes.
If you consider the Prime Material Plane to be "one" shared cosmos-spanning plane (which contains all campaign worlds) then the "one" Ethereal, Feywild, etc should be equally boundless.
And simply having access to a plane doesn't immediately/automatically grant "full" access to the entire plane. Everything is always local. Two distant "corners" of the Feywild (or the Shadowfell, or Thay, or Los Angelos) might appear to be entirely different worlds with entirely different laws of "physics", quirks, properties, terrain, and inhabitants. An aspect of the Feywild visited from Cormanthyr would share little with an aspect of the Feywild visited from Yellowstone Park. |
[/Ayrik] |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2017 : 02:42:24
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This is a response to something in the ice asteroids thread which I thought would be better placed here, as it's pretty off topic. Just to try and understand what Markustay was saying in that thread, I'm going to try and integrate it with what we know about the cosmology with some of my own theories. Credit for the idea fully goes to the originators, I'm just trying to understand it.
Main Theory of Wildspace and Beyond
At the beginning time of the gods and primordials, there is the Astral Plane, the Elemental Chaos, and the True Ethereal.
The primordials start moving elements into the True Ethereal so they can create and uncreate worlds. This is the beginning of playing with "matter", forging prototype worlds and unforging them just as fast. Forming as connections between these clumps of physical matter is the Phlogiston - streams of energy that are later called the Flow. This is a byproduct of the actions of the primordials rather than something they consciously choose to create - a reaction of the True Ethereal. The True Ethereal condenses into streams of energy flowing from clump of matter to clump of matter, leaving void behind in the spaces between. This void, or the absence of Phlogiston, has the same properties as real world space.
There is no permanence to any of the primordials' protoworlds, partly due to permanence being anathema to the primordials, but also due to the influence of the raw Phlogiston connecting them.
The gods take an interest in these creations, but desire to give them permanence - something which cannot exist while matter is touched by the raw Phlogiston. They thus create the crystal spheres, enclosing the protoworlds and separating them from the raw Phlogiston. What is left behind inside the spheres is what the primordials built - protoworlds - which drift in void (RW space, or the absence of Phlogiston). Thus each crystal sphere holds something like a real-world solar system, real-world space included. This is the Material Plane.
The raw Phlogiston, which once connected all matter in the void, is thus removed from the crystal spheres, and now only connects the crystal spheres rather than the matter within them. This is all that remains of the True Ethereal - flows of Phlogiston running between crystal spheres, with void in between the flows.
However, a memory or remnant of the True Ethereal remains, inside the crystal spheres - the Border Ethereal. This exists as a connection between the Material Plane and the True Ethereal (the Phlogiston and the void outside the crystal spheres). The part of the Border Ethereal that exists over the RW space between planets is known as "wildspace".
This is the "misty realm of timeless nothingness crafted by Ao from the raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston" mentioned in the FRCG. That's all is in the crystal spheres at this point - protoworlds drifting within a void (Material Plane), overlaid by a memory of the True Ethereal (Border Ethereal). Removing the raw Phlogiston thus allows the gods to give the creations permanence, which triggers the Dawn War, etc.
What Spelljammers then do is NOT fly through the true physical space between planets (like RW spaceships), but instead fly through the border ethereal between planets, or wildspace (at least, this definition of wildspace). Wildspace being the part of the Border Ethereal existing "over" normal "RW space" can account for the weird gravity effects, it not being cold, etc. When a Spelljammer "lands" on a planet or something, the Spelljamming helms guide them out of the Border Ethereal back into the Material Plane. This passing between the Border Ethereal and the Material Plane may not even be perceptible to spelljammers, so it feels like you're just passing through the atmosphere of a world - but in fact you're passing between planes. This is all due to the influence of the spelljamming helm.
Another way of saying this is that RW space DOES exist outside the planets, but wildspace does too - and it's the part of the Border Ethereal extending over "space".
Almost as an aside, I imagine the Deep Ethereal as being different to the True Ethereal. As the Deep Ethereal serves as a connection between the Border Ethereals of the Material Plane, the Elemental Planes and the Feywild and Shadowfell, I imagine it as being a deeper memory of the True Ethereal, a memory that remembers the paths the primordials used to traverse between those planes when they were forging their creations. The primordials after all must have forged pathways as they came between the Elemental Chaos and the True Ethereal, and forged more pathways as they created the Feywild and the Shadowfell by flinging away bright and dark bits of matter. So the Deep Ethereal is just a deeper version of the Border Ethereal, and the True Ethereal is more like the original state of matter before the coming of the primordials and their inadvertent creation of the Phlogiston and the void. The Phlogiston and the void outside the Crystal Spheres can still be called the True Ethereal, but it's not the same as its original state.
Keen to hear thoughts.
Edit 1:
True Ethereal, or Plane of Magical Energy?
You could also switch out "True Ethereal" for something entirely different without breaking this theory. The third original plane might not have been "ethereal" at all, but could have been pure magical energy, for example. The Phlogiston would then be condensed magical energy flowing between clumps of matter brought by the primordials, and later between crystal spheres. The Border Ethereal would then be the memory or remnant of the presence of this magical energy. The Weave of Mystra could then tap into this - the Weave could literally be a weave of strong connections between this memory of magical energy and the Material Plane. Spells cast through the Weave would then access the energy of the Material Plane, combined with the magical energy accessible through the Ethereal connections (which Mystra makes accessible).
Edit 2:
Prime Material Plane vs Material Planes
You could also think about the Material Plane inside the Crystal Spheres as being individual Material Planes (eg. Material Plane of Toril, Material Plane of Krynn, etc), while thinking of the grander picture of the crystal spheres enclosed within the phlogiston and void outside as all part of the greater Prime Material Plane. This way you can refer to both concepts (of separate Material Planes and an all-encompassing Prime Material Plane). I personally would argue that there is only the Prime Material, and the crystal spheres just enclose sections of the Prime, so that what's inside the crystal spheres are not true "planes" in themselves. By this definition, the "Prime Material Plane" is what has become of the sectioned-up True Ethereal: part phlogiston, part void, part crystal spheres. But, Prime Materials vs separate Materials seems pretty open to individual interpretation.
Feywild and Shadowfell
I'd imagined that the Feywild and Shadowfell exist mainly as bright/dark versions of the planets existing on alternate planes (after all, they're the too dark and too bright bits of the original planets), with void in between those bright/dark planets. That void is still Feywild and Shadowfell (or Feyspace and Shadowspace), but no one has the means to traverse them - except for the gods. So the Feywild and Shadowfell are just planes overlaying the Prime Material, and as in the Prime Material, no one knows how to traverse the "space between", which is why the Border Ethereal of the Prime Material (wildspace) is used. Thus you can't travel between the Feywild of Oerth and the Feywild of Toril without some sort of crossing or portal, or going via other planes.
A second possibility could be that the Feywild and Shadowfell are infinite, traversable planes without void between the planets and crystal spheres. However, this definition makes less immediate sense to me with how those planes were created by the primordials - it doesn't make instant sense to me that there would be infinite amounts of "matter" to create such planes. However, it does make more immediate sense for any theory involving the panspermia of elves out of the Feywild.
A third way of looking at it could be to say that Feyspace/Shadowspace is traversable, and that's how elves move between the Feywilds of different Crystal Spheres. Perhaps they even use the Feywild's version of the Border Ethereal, just as mortals on the Prime Material use their Border Ethereal to move between different material plane crystal spheres. The problem I see with this though is that it adds another whole method of travel, overcomplicating things and leads to a question of why the fey would ever travel through "Material Plane Border Ethereal" wildspace.
I personally prefer the first definition for these planes, explaining away panspermia and other things with portals/crossings between the different "pockets" of Feywild and Shadowfell, and keeping Feyspace/Shadowspace untraversable. You could even make crossings between the different Feywild planets/spheres really common to make it feel more connected, and similarly with the Shadowfell. It might even make sense, considering how much time Corellon used to spend in the Feywild, and how much influence he has on so many different worlds.
Edit 3:
The Border Ethereal on other planes
We know that the Border Ethereal also exists throughout the Inner Planes and the Feywild and Shadowfell, presumably seeping through them from the True Ethereal as the primordials forged paths between planes. This wouldn't be exactly the same as the Border Ethereal on the Material Plane, which is a remnant/memory of the True Ethereal - instead, it's just a bit of it that has seeped through. So, both are "remnants" in a way, which is why they function the same, but they have different aetiologies. It's worth noting that "wildspace" only refers to the portion of the Border Ethereal over the void between planets in the Material Plane, and "wildspace" is the only part of the Border Ethereal that Spelljammers traverse. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Mar 2017 05:45:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2017 : 21:55:54
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Nicely done - you've managed to reinterpret some of my ideas (and others) into something more cohesive (sometimes its hard to put what I am picturing into words). 
WE have to imagine that there are more 'directions' we can travel in than just 3, when we factor-in other dimensions. Thats how it is with the 'Border Ethereal'. You can move forward into and 'go deeper' ('back' would just back you out of the ethereal in the Prime), or move 'up' or 'down' and move into the Feywild or Shadowfell, respectively. If you go 'left' or 'right' you can move 'sideways' in the Ethereal, and reach other Prime Worlds. This is all besides the direction of 'here and now' - you can move in what would feel like a normal fashion, and just stay in the Border Ethereal, which has settlements and inhabitants of its own (Moorcock's Mittlemarch). Its basically what Ed and C.S. Lewis call 'The Woods Between the Worlds' - just a border-realm which connects everything else, if you know the proper way to move through it (for example, gods and fiends might know other 'directions' to head in, so they can move in and out of their 'home turf'). Basically, my concept is that EVERYTHING actually passes through this first, even if its only just an incredibly small 'slice' of it ("the veil between the worlds"). Maybe its really some sort of 'cosmic lubricant', that keeps all the planes from rubbing directly together.
And here's the thing - and I've discussed this at-length elsewhere in regards to Faerie: time/distance compression. Since the Ethereal world isn't 'real', at least not in the sense that we know it, it is anchored to the real world by landmarks. These are usually settlements with mortal (prime Material) beings in them, but they could also be 'places of wonder' (ancient ruins, some sort of powerful edifice or natural terrain feature, a place where an 'ancient battle took place' {magical or otherwise}, or just some site that has become 'legendary' for whatever reason). These will almost always have a corresponding 'echo' in the Border Ethereal, and in the Feywild and Shadowfell... as you move 'further' from the Prime, these 'echoes' become fainter. Like a stone skipping on water.
Time & distance become 'compressed' in these other planes, because they are somewhat smaller than the Prime. The Border Ethereal may be the closest to us in size, but even that is much smaller (1/2, maybe?) But this is also relative to the distance to the 'anchor'. In toher words, when you are within another planer city, it would seem roughly the same size and shape as the RW version. Then as you moved away from that 'anchor point', they distance (and time) would distort. A few miles away, and you'd probably be traveling 1/2 as much to reach the same places, and it would continue to dwindle as you moved further away from an anchor-point. But if you start to approach a different anchor-point, it would start to 'normalize' again. This is why trips through the Feywild (or any other plane for that matter) could take different amounts of time, depending on what route is taken. Sometimes what appears to be 'going out of your way' could actually be much quicker. Usually, only denizens of those planes would know the fastest routes. Thus, when you travel far from a singularity (the center of a crystal sphere, when in the Border Ethereal), the distances would be insanely compressed ('hyperspace'), and this is why you can travel so quickly through space in SJ.
Time works similar, but with one major caveat - it also bends around powerful beings. So the same trip to the same spot in the feywild could take one day, or you could be gone a hundred years, depending on whom you interacted with (and just because you think you were talking to the same fey doesn't make it so). Time is a construct - it isn't real (natural). It was created so that there could be 'continuity' in the universe. The more powerful the beings in the area, the more time wraps itself around it (and 'heavenly bodies' count as 'beings' in a fantasy milieu). Mortals are so spread-out on their worlds, with powerful members everywhere (usually), that time 'levels out' and appears to remain static for the entire planet (and in most cases, this is true). Beings from the Prime are always powerful anchors, regardless of 'level' - its part of their nature (or rather, the nature of Prime Material itself). Time becomes fairly constant to them, even if its flowing differently all around them (which is why you think only one day passed, and really a hundred years passed back home.. or the opposite).
This is why is fairly safe to deal with lesser planer beings - like pixies in the feywild, etc - than it is to deal with more powerful ones. 'Domain Lords' (any being that can actually control the local landscape somewhat, and even the creatures in it) - which would include an archfiend, or a 'fairy Queen', etc (and DEFINITELY 'a god'), would warp time the worst for a mortal, and are therefor dangerous, even when the being itself is benign (you go to the fairy queen to get a magical doll for your young daughter, and return home to find she is now an old crone, etc). Basically, the greater the 'power' you are around, the greater the distortions you could suffer (although most Gods try to set themselves to the mortals 'home time' to avoid this, otherwise god-worshiper relations would just fall apart). Most of these very powerful beings ('Powers') can exert their will to slow or speed up the time around them, but mostly its just the gods who bother to do this (other outsiders just don't care enough). This is why you could walk into a temple, and have a sumptuous feast with your deity, and they can tell you all sorts of wondrous things, and teach you stuff, and then give you a quest, and you'll think all of that took one whole day, a least, but to your friends waiting outside, only a few minutes passed. And thats what could happen while on the Prime Material - it gets so much worse when you leave it. Gods are cool like that; time is fairly innocuous to them.
Bottom line: 'Mass' (and energy) actually create Time & Space (distance) around them, and the further you move from those points, the more irrelevant they become. This model works both in our magical theory, but in RW physics as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2017 22:09:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2017 : 22:19:31
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And as an addendum to all of that above, I picture Cerilia (Birthright) being IN the Border Ethereal (the 'Middle Marches'). It has 'Domain Lords' - Regents and awnsheghlien (abominations) that have powers similar to RL's Domain Lords, or even personages like Amlaruil of Evermeet (or archfey, demon lords, etc, etc).
It could also possibly be somewhere in the Feywild, if you don't care the Mittlemrach/Border Ethereal concepts.
I like placing it there (in one of these 'transitive' planes), because it makes some of its toys accessible. Its version of Fomorians always fit the Fey version better than the standard D&D variety, and it also has this dichtomony with its own Shadoworld that is very similar to the 4e (and 5e) concept of the Shadowfell. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2017 : 03:21:18
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My single problem with the "Wildspace = Border Ethereal space =/= Prime Material space" alternate hypothesis is that it goes against the canon lore for what we know about Spelljamming.
But the reason I like it as an alternative is because the weird physics of Spelljamming (air pockets, weird gravity relationships, warmth in space, etc) just don't feel right to me. I know D&D/Realms physics =/= RW physics, but the disjunction here just makes my brain unhappy. If I can make my brain happy AND avoid damaging too much existing lore by shunting wildspace into the Border Ethereal, I think it's worth it for me.
I imagine the actual experience of "Border Ethereal space" to be exactly the same as what is described in the SJ material: it looks like real space, but it operates differently (warmth etc). Why the Border Ethereal functions differently in space compared to on planets can be explained through proximity to planet-sized objects: such objects may make the Border Ethereal (BE) clump around them, resulting in a different experience for those in the BE on planets as compared to those in the BE in space.
I like the theory, and it allows for Spelljamming without having to have discussions about "but space doesn't work like that" with my players. I guess my main question to the Spelljammer fans out there is:
Does changing things so that Spelljammers "spelljam" into the Border Ethereal over "space" rather than through the Prime Material "space" damage any assumptions of the setting, or introduce any other major new contradictions? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 15 Mar 2017 03:25:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2017 : 06:26:54
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Right - that was my problem with it - there was no way of reconciling arcane space with real space, and yet, we have D&D canon that 'normal' spaceshps do exist, and that Earth (the D&D earth) exists in the same universe, which would mean all of our current science is completely wrong... and thats why it just doesn't "feel right".
So we came up with that, and it doesn't violate SJ canon for the simple reason that people on these 'magical' worlds don't realize their SJ helms are shifting them slowly into the Border Ethereal as the leave the breathable atmosphere. They would think that IS 'space'. They don't know the difference.
There is no 'illusion' on the moon - thats the best part. When someone with a halfway decent telescope on Toril looks at the moon, thats what they see - a barren, empty place. But when someone travels toward it (using any sort of magi-tech), they enter the Border ethereal, and THAT version of the moon would become apparent. Same for the other planets.
Now, if we postulate an advanced world that still has 'magic', then they would probably be aware of both versions (and maybe even have ships designed to utilize both). Picture something like the Enterprise, or Battlestar Galactica (or an imperial Star-destroyer, etc) with an SJ helm attached. But they'd probably have a full-blown, 'Planesjammer' Helm, which should be able to shift into other planes as well (so not just back-N-forth between the Border Ethereal and the Prime material). Normal Warp technology (hyperspace) doesn't work in close proximity to a singularity (I think you have to be at least out around Saturn or something), so basically you just say you can't switch while in Wildspace/normal intrastellar space (well, you could, just like you can try to go to warp closer to the sun... but you run certain risks).
Heck, Star Trek went to 'other universes'/dimensions (quantum realities) a bunch of times. Even the mirroverse (where we first learned that goatees are evil).
So, since worlds that have both magic and technology are very rare, worlds where both would be known and explored would be rare. Our world (and other scify planets) would almost entirely use the normal (Prime Material) version, and magical worlds would almost always use the arcane (Border ethereal) version.
And it means certain other 'oddities' now also work, like an old gem of a game, Space: 1889, where Victorian-era folk travel to Mars (in sailing ships - about a year or so before SJ did it). That could have been the D&D Earth, and those steampunk spaceships also utilized the Border Ethereal version of space, and thats the Mars they visited. Same would go for any Jules Verne story, like From the Earth to the Moon. This theory of two different, overlapping versions of 'space' makes lots and lots of things work for us.
Oh... and Mongo, from Flash Gordon. It never made sense - a 'rogue planet' that travels into star systems form outside, with life and an ecosphere all its own (with NO sun?  ). But if Mongo were traveling through Wildpsace, then it all makes perfect sense. And THAT planet would have duel-space capabilities. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Mar 2017 06:27:38 |
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Cosmology Theories
