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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
718 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  23:22:18  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

If we took dragon myths at face value, Io/Asgorath seems to be a being far older than the normal gods (in Monster Mythology he even created the whole multiverse. According to dragons, at least). That means he (or she) is possibly in the same category of Atropus, another being older than gods. We can group those two with the Guardian of the Living Gate (a being that was neither god nor primordial, but "kin to both", according to 4e PHB 3).

So, maybe Io was just injured, and Bahamut and Tiamat took his place in the war. Products from older editions have myths of Io creating Bahamut and Tiamat without dying. And even one of the 4e Draconomicons posses the possibility of Bahamut and Tiamat being alive before the Dawn War (IIRC, the one about Chromatic Dragons), so this can be possible.

Then, when the batrachi were summoning primordials, Io answered the call (he was kin to both, so he got the call as well), but wanted a world for only his creation, the dragons (we know this thanks to Council of Wyrms). Wanted specifically Abeir-Toril, because... heck, whatever. He knew it would become a cool setting in the future (?) So, when the gods were unable to leave the world to a "primordial", he enraged and Ao had to create another world just for Io. The other primordials just came along (and we know not all primordials went to Abeir).

Expanding on that, perhaps when Erek-Hus cleaved through Io, it transformed Io into Asgorath (also creating Bahamut and Tiamat in the process). So "Io" is dead, but Io also survives through Asgorath. However, Asgorath is a more "primeval" force, not the Greater God (or above that) that Io was, born out of the chaotic fury of Erek-Hus combined with the draconic essence of Io. Perhaps it is even driven mad by what Erek-Hus did to it, for it ends up on Toril siding with the primordials. It eventually is on the losing side of the Dawn War, is imprisoned, and then later released by the batrachi - at which point it tries to destroy the world (and creates the dragon race on Toril), and is banished to Abeir. Perhaps then the creative force of what remains of Io wins out for a time, and the dragonborn are created.

Edit: ZeromaruX, can you help me find the info on the War of Fang and Talon? I skimmed Dragon 373 but can't find it. NVM, found it in the FRCG and Dragon 375.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 28 Feb 2017 23:45:15
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
300 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  00:15:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The War of Fang and Dragon is also mentioned in the first ABER adventure of LFR. Well, they only say that Orlarrakh (the green dragon that rule in the Dusk Ports of Returned Abeir) is so old that is believed she was one of the dragons who took part in that battle.

Beyond that, what you get the FRCG and Dragon 375 is the only stuff they revealed about that conflict.

—Is there a catch?
—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5447 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  00:15:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

That is a fantastic list of all the 4e stuff ZeromaruX! So many memories of lore-reading from my 4e campaign. Nice work assembling all that.

One thing that has bugged me is the Io/Asgorath thing. Io is supposedly destroyed during the Dawn War, but Asgorath is one of the primordials involved with the batrachi event much later. Plus, Io is associated with some myths of dragonborn creation - but I guess that's only a problem if we suppose they were created on Abeir, if they were created before Abeir-Toril was sundered that would make reconciling the two easier. Perhaps there is a deeper meaning to why they have two names - perhaps twins, or one being the shadow of the other?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'd say with a name like the Dawn War, the creation of the Sun had something to do with it. DURING the Dawn War, Shar was "snuffing out all light and life". So, at some point, I'd gather that the "Night Serpent" .... whether that's Shar, Dendar, or someone now gone... snuffed out the sun. Whether that was a big cloud that blocked the sun's light, an illusion, or an actual closing off of the portals to the elemental plane of fire that light the sun up (which inadvertently might have pissed off beings of Primordial Fire). That was the Shadow Epoch, and it was probably during the Dawn War. Eventually, somehow or other, the Sun relit, bringing light and warmth.

I think an earlier time for the sun being lit is fair. We know there was life on Toril during the Blue Age, and it could be assumed that some sort of warmth would be needed for it. So perhaps Selune does ignite the sun back around the start of the Dawn War, which sends Shar into a rage which she mostly takes out on the primordials to start with. Then Dendar comes along, blocks out the sun, and Shar is mostly content with the situation. Then when the sun is uncovered again near the end of the Dawn War, Shar remembers what her sister did and attacks her, beginning the "deific battles" that spawned Mystryl and many other gods.



EDIT

Yeah, and now that you phrase it like that.... if Selune lit the sun via aid from the fire elemental primordials... I can see Shar and her Shadevari attacking said fire elemental primordials. The whole Dawn War could have been started when Shar accidentally sicked her "Entropic Primordials" buddies on Selune's "Fire Primordial" buddies (which does give Selune a bit of a darker cast). Perhaps then both deities came to realize that these Primordials would destroy everything that Selune and Shar were tied to, so they then allied with other gods to try and stop the conflict?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Mar 2017 10:37:32
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13563 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  02:09:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All of that works within my 'proto-cosmology' I try to blend every religion together - ancient and modern - and also all of fantasy/D&D/folklore elements as well.

So, to my way of thinking, Io was 'the first dragon' (Celestial Dragon, which aren't dragons at all - its just how mortals picture them). He would take the place of 'the One' in my cosmology - which is perfect, because 'The One' has fallen silent (I'd rather leave that a mystery; dead? sleeping? In a near-death coma?) One could equate the other dragons with other beings in my story. In fact, I picture all of those super, 'on high' beings (the Ordials) very much like the gods of the draconic pantheon (ancient, alien, and insanely powerful).

Thus the dragons aren't wrong, but neither is everyone else. Each group has their own interpretation of "what went down". And it doesn't even have to be chalked-up to human (mortal) misunderstanding (although a LOT of it is) - it could be that each 'side' in all of this is remembering things the way they recall it, with their own prejudices and agenda applied. (in other words, no-one EVER thinks they are 'the bad guy' - thats what the winners call the losers in any conflict). So at the end of the day, the draconic version of 'The Creation' might be the most accurate, because it just may be the least distorted (having been passed-down through far fewer generations).

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

That was enjoyable to read, and a cool mythology. How do the deities come into existence, is it through the damaging of the One? I feel like I could work parts of this into my own idea - the One and Cthon seem to be good mythological analogues for "Perfect Life" and "Perfect Unlife" in my own proto-mythology.

Everything is part of 'The Whole' (the universe). 'The One' has many names, in numerous religions, but that is just a title for the consciousness of the universe itself. (In Marvel comics, think of 'The One' as Eternity, and perhaps Gaea as Infinity. I guess that sort-of makes the demiurge 'the in-betweener' (not a good fit LOL). Then again, he did 'go evil', so maybe...

'Cthon' is just a name people have given 'The Other' - its is even more enigmatic and unknowable than The One. Its not something that could even be fought against. In Cthulhuian terms, it would be Azathoth, as it existed in the pre-universe (what I think of as the universe Obyriths hailed from, and aberrations still do). Cthulhu would be a mere High Priest of such a being (if the living embodiment of insanity itself could even be called 'a being'). The Far Realms are the remnant of that first universe, which grows every smaller as the new universe expands (which is probably why the creatures living there are PISSED, and want to kill everything in this universe).

EVERYTHING is part of that first whole being, because it was 'the all'. 'The Ymir' (firmament) was merely the most powerful being destroyed during the Dawn War, but many others were obliterated as well. All of that energy was released - all part of 'the One' (think of it like blood, spraying across the cosmos). Its that energy - Elan - that is free-floating throughout the multiverse, and must be recollected (or so 'the gods' think). It is the shattered remains of the dead Ordials, which are in-part a piece of god itself. It is this energy that powers the Weave (I have much more on that), and this energy which allows mortals to 'ascend' to godhood (become deities). Mortals are like natural sponges for this energy, which is why they are an integral part of the machine.

Another major inspiration for all of this was back when I first read Guide to hell, with the story of Jazirian and Ahriman - I found the idea that the Great Wheel hadn't been around 'forever' fascinating, and that's what made me start thinking in terms of it being some sort of vast machine/artifact. At some point, even an 'evil god' had given up its very existence to do this thing, which means it must be SO important that the whole 'good vs. evil' axis is trivial by comparison.

"And when Ymir fell, the dwarves crawling around on it physical form like maggots in its flesh, his mother, Gaea, embraced him, and became one with him, so that the universe would not be destroyed in the process. And this is why The Gaea - the 'lifeforce' of all living things - is conjoined with physical matter in a way that is nearly inseparable... except upon death. Then those small stray bits of Elan - the human 'soul' as it were - can be collected an made part of the whole again".

And in so doing, we all 'return to God'. Souls are to the universe what cells are to a human body - each one bearing a 'copy' - a blueprint, as it were - of the whole. We are all 'tiny gods', just waiting to unlock our true potential.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2017 02:11:52
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
718 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  03:34:04  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've compiled all the information my brain can take on the Dawn War, both its effect on Abeir-Toril and the wider multiverse. This will be spread across a few posts.
All info is source-quoted. In a few cases I've inserted homebrew to smooth things, but I've noted where I've done that.

PHB = Player's Handbook
DMG = Dungeon Master's Guide
MM = Monster Manual
MV = Monster Vault
R&C = Races and Classes
MotP = Manual of the Planes
TPA = The Plane Above - Secrets of the Astral Sea
TBB = The Plane Below - Secrets of the Elemental Chaos
OG = Open Grave - Secrets of the Undead
RotG = 4e Revenge of the Giants
ToH = 4e Tomb of Horrors setting
Dr = Dragon Magazine
Du = Dungeon Magazine
FRCS = 3e FR Campaign Setting
FRCG = 4e FR Campaign Guide
F&A = Faiths and Avatars
GHotR = Grand History of the Realms

Before the Gods
Many myths place Sigil as being created by legendary proto-entities that preceded the gods and primordials (4e DMG2, p186). The Obelisk of Night may also date to this era (TPA p85).

The obyriths exist in another universe, draining it of life and power (Demonomicon p7). Note: the timing of this event is unknown, and may be after the creation of the gods.

Before the Dawn War
As the gods arise in the Astral Sea, the primordials arise in the Elemental Chaos (Dr370 p25). The Far Realm exists beyond the known universe, and the Living Gate, guarded by a being neither god nor primordial but kin to both, is a sleeping connection to it (4e DMG p161, PHB3 p4).

The first few primordials, such as Ogremoch, sire further primordials (MM3 p160).

Some legends claim that Corellon and Gruumsh are twins born of a primogenitor deity that sacrifices its own life so that they may live, but the people of neither god believe this (Dr408 p6).

The obyriths, having nearly completely drained their dying universe of all life and power, push a shard of uttermost evil (possibly the remains of their race's souls) through the fissure between realities, hoping to corrupt the realm beyond in the last age of their race. It is an idea of the obyrith Pazuzu (Demonomicon p7, p133).

The gods work on the Lattice of Heaven, an all-powerful astral connection planned to link all their dominions into a single realm (TPA p6).

The primordials mess with matter, creating worlds, and the Feywild and Shadowfell as byproducts (4e DMG p160-161).

Pelor, Ioun, and Tharizdun discover the Living Gate. Tharizdun distracts the guard, and all three peer in. Then they leave, changed by what they saw (PHB3 p4).

The gods discover the primordials' creations and begin to take an interest in them (4e DMG p161).

Abeir-Toril: From the raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston, Ao creates the crystal sphere that will one day hold Toril. Several lifeless worlds exist within the sphere, coveted by primordials (FRCG p41-42).

Abeir Toril: Selune and Shar are born/created, and quickly move to defend the virgin worlds from the destructive primordials (FRCG p42).

The gods make the "compact of heaven", pledging to share power in the natural world. As a part of this agreement, angels (not the same as aasimon) are created to serve the gods and the compact of heaven. This does not tie them to the service of individual gods, but many angels do end up attaching themselves to a particular god. This compact does not allow for pure chaos. Gruumsh is incensed, feeling like he was dealt the short straw (TPA p32-34, Dr408 p7).

The gods create the maruts to mediate their divine disputes. They are created out of the soulstuff of unborn angels, which are trapped by Torog, then channeled by Amoth and Tuern into bodies forged from the stuff of the Astral Sea by Moradin. The Maruts eventually create the Supernal script (TPA p98).

The gods imagine what they could do with the worlds, the process of which shapes them and creates life on them (4e DMG p161). The influence of the deities gives the worlds a hint of permanence, which is anathema to the primordials - laying seeds of the future Dawn War (4e MotP p70).

The primal spirits are created by the gods, either intentionally or unintentionally, through their shaping of the worlds (Primal Power p116). Homebrew note: These primal spirits seem to be of exceptional strength on the First World comparatively to other worlds, but perhaps this is because 4e occurs at a time closer to their creation.

Abeir-Toril: Selune and Shar craft the virgin worlds into the worlds we know today, giving life to Chauntea, the embodiment of the world of Toril, in the process (FRCS p260).

Abeir-Toril: Selune and Shar fight over whether or not to warm Chauntea, and from their divine conflict deities of war, disease, murder, death, and other fell forces are created (FRCS p260).

Abeir-Toril: Selune reaches into the plane of fire to create a sun to warm Toril. Shar is enraged and seeks to snuff out all light and warmth in the universe (FRCS p260).

Abeir-Toril: The creation of the sun is likely the beginning of the Blue Age on Abeir-Toril, the age named for the world's single vast ocean (FRCG p42).

The Underdark remains relatively untouched by the gods, leaving it more mutable. However, the god Torog pursues his primordial rival Gargash into it and kills him, but becomes cursed to not be able to leave the Underdark thereafter. Torog smashes his way through the Underdark and the barriers between the Shadowfell and the Feywild, creating many endless tunnels that are given permanency by his movements (4e Underdark p6).

The first mortals are created by the gods (on worlds other than Abeir-Toril, such as the First World). Homebrew: it takes longer on Abeir-Toril due to Selune & Shar's fighting.. These mortals appear from the gods' imaginings combined with the abundance of creation-stuff still drifting in the cosmos. Reflections of these races appear in the Feywild and Shadowfell (4e DMG p160-161).

The first dwarves are created by Moradin using his Soulforge (Dr385 p73). The Firstborn dwarves come to live in Moradin's masterpiece mountain of Stoneroot (Primal Power p126), though some are also given by Moradin to the primordials. Unbenownst to Moradin, who immediately begins work on his next creation, the primordials grant the dwarves to the giants, who put them to use as slaves (R&C p28, Dr391 p50).

The mortal fey are created through Corellon's tears of sorrow, beauty, and mirth, the majority being mirth inspired by Sehanine and Araushnee. These precursors to the elves and eladrin (homebrew: perhaps the noble eladrin) may have been born into the Feywild, where the three heads of the fey pantheon spend most of their time (TPA p37) (Corellon having been the first immortal to discover the Feywild (R&C p34)).

Avandra, trying to aid a woman in trouble, inadvertently creates the doppelgangers (Divine Power p69).

Io creates the first dragons, creations born of both the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos (4e MM1 p74).

Many stories surround the creation of the humans, but the truth of it remains unknown (R&C p22).

Zehir finds that he cannot craft his own creatures, and appeals to Avandra to teach him how to change the creations of others. Enamoured with him and his silver tongue, Avandra eventually agrees, with the condition that the creatures have to agree to the change. Zehir begins plotting the murder of the creator of humanity so that he can manipulate them as he sees fit (MV p288).

In these earliest days, the souls of mortals simply depart the cosmos to a place beyond all reckoning (homebrew: this only applies to mortals who do not bind themselves to gods). Some primordials recognize soul-power as a potent force, and hunger for it. Souls are subsequently are consumed, simply sputter out, or persist and become undead (OG p6).

Gruumsh enters Arvandor and engages Corellon in battle - possibly their first conflict. Araushnee witnesses and admires Gruumsh's rage. Some elven theologians believe this fight did not occur until after the Dawn War, though it is possible both this and a later battle occurred (TPA, Dr394 p36).

Tharizdun discovers the obyriths' shard of evil, which creates a link in his mind to them, and they subsequently drive the power-hungry god to madness. The obyriths promise Tharizdun power over the other gods in return for his planting of the seed within the Astral Sea, but even through his madness he sees that their promise is false. Tharizdun instead plants the seed in the Elemental Chaos, hoping to gain power over the primordials. Planting it explodes a yawning vortex between universes, drawing the remaining obyriths through and creating the Abyss. As the tear in the fabric of reality closes, Tharizdun does battle with the obyriths in the Abyss, calling forth the first demons from the substance of the shard of evil. The last twelve obyriths eventually force Tharizdun into a stalemate, and the growth of the Abyss begins to slow and settle. The two sides withdraw to plot the other's destruction (Demonomicon p7).

Primordials start to notice the Abyss, and begin to take interest in the shard of evil, unconcerned with thoughts of mortality. Demogorgon is the first to enter the sea of blood which has formed around the shard, but he is challenged by the interloper Dagon. While they fight, the obyrith Obox-ob claims the shard and becomes the first Prince of Demons. The shard commands the obyrith to plant it in the Astral Sea, but Obox-ob struggles to carry it as he is not the full master of its power as Tharizdun was. Demogorgon, Orcus, and Baphomet, already changing into demons due to their proximity to the shard, fling Obox-ob and the shard back into the Abyss, creating a deep fissure in the Blood Sea which becomes known as the Blood Rift. The three demonic primordials pursue the shard into the rift and are transformed into Demon Lords, but their power wanes the closer they get to the shard and they eventually retreat. The primordial Garash slips past them, but is never seen again, and demon lords never again pursue the shard. The Abyss continues to be changed by the shard, and the demon lords establish their lairs within its layers (Demonomicon p7-8).

Tharizdun attempts to force the newly created demon lords into slavery, but their combined strength is too much for him. Instead, he tries to rally the primordials to help him claim the shard. Posing as the Elder Elemental Eye, he promises the primordials triumph over the gods who took their creations from them. Few realize what the Elder Elemental Eye truly is (Demonomicon p8).

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 06 Mar 2017 01:01:25
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
718 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  03:39:58  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
During the Dawn War
The primordials, rallied by the Elder Elemental Eye, react to the gods' interference by invading the Astral Sea, beginning the Dawn War (4e DMG p161). The primordial known as Miska the Wolf Spider is charged with retrieving the shard of evil from the Abyss for Tharizdun (Demonomicon p8).

While the gods and the primordials are away from the worlds of the Prime Material, the primal spirits begin to find their voices and interact with mortals (Primal Power p116).

The Lattice of Heaven is shattered by the primordials, who steal the Rune of Stone Eternal from it in the Dawn War's earliest phase (Dr394). The divine dominions are blown apart into the Astral Sea, and cease functioning at full power and effectiveness (TPA p6-7). Only the skeleton of the construct survives, binding a few divine dominions to fixed locations, while others float randomly through the Astral Sea (TPA p8). The "divine system" stops working properly (TPA p9), and many souls start ending up in border islands as outsiders rather than in the divine dominions as exalted (TPA p34-35).

At the same time as the Lattice is shattered, Araushnee tries to kill Corellon. Her children become the first drow (homebrew: these are different to the drow of Toril). Corellon and Sehanine are forced to wage war against her at the same time as fighting in the Dawn War, though Araushnee will eventually retreat into the Underdark (TPA p37, Dr394 p35). Note: Araushnee is not cast down to become the demon goddess Lolth until the Dawn Age of Toril (GHotR p8).

Initially, the gods cannot seem to gain the upper hand against the primordials. They find the power of the primordials to be as mighty as their own, and are frustrated by their own inability to properly organize against them (Dr372 p26).

Early in the war, the island realm of Agathys is turned into a magic laboratory for the gods to spawn abominations from, in order to help them in the war against the primordials (TPA p38). Melora, Moradin, Ioun, Amoth, Tuern, and Gruumsh are all involved in creating the realm that will become Carceri (TPA p104).

The stories around Achra are conflicting: one story claims he was a mortal king, others claim he was a demigod and brother to Kord & the war god Tuern. In either case, the main myth around him tells of the god Achra calling for solidarity amongst the forces of the gods against the primordials, who had previously been unable to organize efficiently in the face of the threat. Achra is granted control of some of the divine forces, and he takes them to war. In battle, Achra comes face to face with Tabrach-Ti, the primordial called the Queen of Bronze, and kills her - the first primordial to fall in the Dawn War. The servants of the primordials begin to call Achra "Bane", a name he takes to. Bane comes to command the bulk of the divine forces. The powerful angel Asmodeus becomes one of his advisors, lent to him by He Who Was. Tuern, jealous of Bane, undermines his efforts in the war. Bane does not forget the slight (Dr372 p26, TPA p51, ToH p139).

The Dawn War comes in full to the worlds of the Prime Material (Primal Power p116).

Abeir-Toril: Gods summoned from other planes and the gods created by the deific battles of Selune and Shar join the twins of light and darkness in fighting the primordials (FRCG p42).

Abeir-Toril: Life struggles into existence on the worlds of Ao's sphere while the gods and primordials do battle. Abeir-Toril becomes home to a race of sea creatures dwelling in the depths of the single vast ocean (FRCG p42).

Melora, either accidentally or intentionally, creates the halfling race with the aid of Sehanine. The race is taken under the care of their ally Avandra (TPA p38). Homebrew: Melora and Sehanine create Yondalla, who births the halfling race. The new goddess is not yet fully cognizant, so they are taken under the care of Avandra.

Corellon and Gruumsh fight alongside each other, throwing down primordials and staving off demons. However, Gruumsh's bitterness and jealousy towards Corellon grows with each passing battle (Dr408 p7).

Baphomet is defeated, and Erathis beats her close ally Melora to claiming dominion over the minotaurs. Erathis gets Moradin to train them in crafts, and the minotaurs found the city of Ruul in their name. However, Baphomet returns and re-corrupts the minotaurs, and Melora and Kord destroy the city (Dr369 p7). Discord arises between Erathis and Melora, and they begin to view each other as adversaries (Dr401 p23).

The primordial Heur-Ket pushes through the Astral Sea. Deities perish and divine dominions are blown asunder in its wake. Erathis, Ioun, and Pelor combine their dominions into the domain of Hestavar in order to defend against the primordial, which they then defeat (Dr371 p20).

The powerful mortal wizard Nerull (who lays the foundations upon which much of the school of necromancy is based) slays Aurom, a god holding sway over many domains, including death. This is the first case of a mortal killing a god. Nerull takes only the domain of death, dividing the other domains amongst other deities so that they do not challenge his ascension. Nerull then begins using the souls of mortals to fuel his own power, plotting to one day reign supreme amongst the gods (Dr390 p46, Divine Power p43, Dr427 p9).

Tharizdun returns to the Living Gate and slays its guardian. The Living Gate opens, and the Far Realm subsequently breaks into the cosmos. The dominions of several deities are consumed, forcing the gods' attention away from the Dawn War to defend their homes. Ioun and Pelor manage to destroy the gate, sealing the passage to the Far Realm, but it comes at the cost of Pelor's dominion (PHB3 p4) (homebrew: this dominion is Pelor's part of Hestavar rather than a lone domain). Pelor takes the largest fragments of the gate and preserves it in secret in his dominion on Hestavar to prevent others from rebuilding it, which he believes would be a mistake (TPA p63). Psionic power is believed to date back to these events, and either derive from the Far Realm or the universe's response to the intrusion of that realm (PHB3 p5).

The gods finally find and defeat Tharizdun. They lock him away, calling him the Chained God and wiping his name from memory (Demonomicon p8).

Miska the Wolf Spider continues his assault on the demonic forces led by Obox-ob, trying to claim the shard of evil from the Abyss. Miska corners the weakened Prince of Demons and is about to enter a portal to the shard, when the obyrith known as the Queen of Chaos strikes. She kills Obox-ob and offers the title of Prince of Demons to Miska. The Wolf Spider accepts, having become corrupted by his proximity to the shard, and having long feared Tharizdun will never be freed. Miska asks that in return the Queen of Chaos destroys the gods of the Astral Sea, and she agrees (Demonomicon p9).

The demonic forces of the Queen of Chaos and Miska turn their forces against the gods, and together with the already attacking primordials, many divine realms are lost (Demonomicon p9).

Io is slain by the primordial Erek-Hus, the King of Terror, after deciding over-confidently he was strong enough to take on the primordial alone. It is possible Io had been betrayed to the primordials by Zehir (Dr415 p8). Bahamut and Tiamat subsequently arise from Io's defeated body and slay Erek-Hus (Divine Power p40). Bahamut and Tiamat then turn on each other, though Tiamat eventually flees and they both take up the Dawn War, albeit separately (4e MM1 p74). Homebrew: What remains of Io eventually becomes the primordial Asgorath.

Io's violent death causes a rift between the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, and the guardian god Haramathur sacrifices himself to seal the rift (Dr390 p46). The name of Haramathur's divine dominion, where a petrified golden primordial remains, is lost, as is knowledge of that god's link to it. The divine realm becomes known as Erishani - named for an angel rumoured to have a role in the primordial's petrification (TPA p108).

Bahamut pursues Nihil, a primordial incarnation of nothingness, to Lakal, which is both the home realm of the quom and a deity in its own right. Bahamut destroys Nihil, but the deceased primordial permeates Lakal and kills it (TPA p101).

The "God of the Word" of the dominion of Shom is destroyed (TPA p119).

An exarch of Moradin and seven angels of Bahamut known as the Wind Dukes of Aaqa work in secret with the Soul-Forge of Moradin to craft the Rod of Law. The Rod is used to strike down and banish Miska the Wolf Spider to an unknown plane. The Rod subsequently shatters into the Rod of Seven Parts, and Miska's armies retreat to the Elemental Chaos (Demonomicon p9).

The Queen of Chaos dissipates back into the Abyss after Miska is banished, her true fate unknown. The other obyriths go into hiding, and Demogorgon claims the title of Prince of Demons. After crushing his rivals, he repels the forces of the Astral Sea from the Abyss (Demonomicon p9).

After the Queen of Chaos falls, the obyrith Pazuzu whispers words of flattery to an archangel of chastity and virtue named Asmodeus. Asmodeus, an archangel of He Who was and a great warrior in the Dawn War, begins to think of himself as more righteous than his god. After his tactics in the war become increasingly brutal, He Who Was strips Asmodeus of his beauty and leaves him to suffer on the plains of Avernus along with his followers (TPA p65-66).

Clangeddin Silverbeard leads a revolt of the dwarven slaves against their giant masters, and Moradin finds out what the primordials had done with his creations. Moradin throws himself into the Dawn War with renewed vigor, and truly opens up his portfolio to favour his created race, whom he had previously largely ignored (Dr391 p50, R&C p28).

Moradin's great mountain of Stoneroot is invaded by titans and giants, and though the dwarves are initially defended by Moradin, he is forced to retreat from the primordial Vezzuvu, the Burning Mountain. The Firstborn dwarves are scattered and Stoneroot is smashed to rubble (Primal Power p126). Many dwarves continue to endure slavery until after the fall of the primordials and the giants (R&C p28).

A small number of primordials, believing the Elder Elemental Eye to be the first primordial, try to free Tharizdun from his prison. These primordials become known as the Elemental Princes. They fail, but their temporary alliance serves them well, helping to spare them defeat at the hands of the gods (4e MM3 p113).

The archangel Asmodeus is assigned to guard the Chained God (homebrew: perhaps further punishment by He Who Was), but he abandons this duty and manages to steal a shard of the evil seed in heart of the Abyss. He forges it into a ruby-tipped rod of incredible power and leads an invasion of Baathion, aided in secret by Pazuzu and some of Bane's angels, who act as advisors. In Baathion, Asmodeus murders He Who Was. However, the fallen god curses Asmodeus and his followers, turning them into the first devils. Baathion is transformed into Baator, becoming a prison the devils cannot escape from and preventing Asmodeus from claiming the divinity of the defeated god (TPA p65, Demonomicon p9&133, Dr372 p27).

Asmodeus's stealing of a fragment of the shard of evil ignites the Blood War, with demons seeking to reclaim the shard whilst Asmodeus plots to claim the rest of the seed of evil (Divine Power 40, MotP p89, TPA p65-66, Demonomicon p9).

Asmodeus makes overtures to both the gods and the primordials (without either side knowing he is dealing with the other), claiming himself to be the only one who can use the divine power of He Who Was to end the war. The gods eventually make the better offer, and the pact forged between them allows Asmodeus the divine power of He Who Was "until the primordials are vanquished". The language of the contract also provides for the preservation of Baator through the use of souls for all time (TPA p65-66).

A powerful mortal sorcerer-queen dies and comes to Nerull's realm of Pluton, where the god becomes enamoured with her and makes her his queen, calling her Nera. His enthrallment is partly due to her soul being made to shine more brightly by the gods Corellon, Pelor, Moradin, and Sehanine, acting in secret. 'Nera' discovers how Nerull holds souls in thrall and kills him, though she is forced to release all souls from their bondage to do so (homebrew: an aspect of Nerull survives on Oerth). The other gods do not allow her to reclaim the released souls, only granting her dominion over death, not the dead. The new goddess of death cuts Pluton entirely out of the soulform process and moves her realm to the Shadowfell, where she strikes her name from knowledge and becomes the Raven Queen. Souls once again begin passing on to beyond the cosmos (Divine Power p43, TPA p126, Dr427 p10).

In the First World, primal spirits such as Stormhawk, Everflame, and the World Serpent defend the worlds from both the gods and primordials (Primal Power p116&123).

The Dawn War begins to near its end in favor of the gods (Divine Power p92).

Arguments begin between the gods of the First World over how the world will operate after the Dawn War's end. Avandra is eventually called to make a compromise between the groups of gods, which ends in the world having both day and night, as well as the four seasons (Divine Power p92).

Khala, goddess of winter, not wishing to honour the divine compromises, invades the dominions of many other gods with her allies (including her son Kord, consort Zehir, and allies Gruumsh and Tiamat), beginning the War of Winter (Divine Power p67).

Abeir-Toril: The primordial known as the Night Serpent snatches the sun from the sky (homebrew: the Night Serpent is a temporary ally of Khala). Global temperatures plummet, and most life on Abeir-Toril becomes extinct. The Shadow Epoch begins (FRCG p42).

Abeir-Toril: Battles continue between the primordials and the Elder Gods led by Ouroboros the World Serpent (FRCG p42).

The War of Winter turns against Khala and her allies when Moradin convinces her son Kord to switch sides. As Khala's forces are slowly defeated, Tiamat and Gruumsh abandon her cause (Divine Power p67).

As Khala nears defeat, the primal spirits of the First World decide to ban the gods from interfering directly in the world, fearing they would bring as many problems as the primordials (Primal Power p116).

Without a domain to call her own since she was created out of Io, Tiamat invades Zehir's dominion of Tytherion (TPA p80).

The Winter War ends with the death of Khala. Her domain of winter is taken by the Raven Queen (Divine Power p67).

Abeir-Toril: The primordial Ubtao betrays the other primordials and assists the elder gods in slaying, imprisoning, or driving away the remaining primordials. The sun is released, bringing an end to the Shadow Epoch (FRCG p42).

The Dawn War ends with the defeat of the primordials, most of whom are imprisoned in some way (4e MotP p70). Their strength is much diminished by their defeat, but even in their lesser state they remain a match for main deities (Dr370 p25).

Mual-Tar, the Thunder Serpent, is defeated by Moradin, Pelor, and Bahamut, and bound by chains made from Moradin's Forge (Dr370 p25)
Vezzuvu, the Burning Mountain, is trapped in a field of radiance shifted partly out of reality (4e MotP p70)
Balcoth, the Groaning King, is beheaded but his head survives, albeit buried (4e MotP p70).
Solkara, the Crushing Wave, is imprisoned in an unchanging glacier (4e MotP p70).
The gods manage to kill Bryakus, the Colossus of Chaos, but from his blood is spawned the hydras (MV p175).
The Elemental Princes, thanks to their temporary alliance, manage to escape the gods to the Elemental Chaos, where they remain in exile (4e MM3 p113). Melora casts down Olhydra's coral keep into a wide chasm in a black sea (Du199 p2); Yan-C-Bin is exiled to his invisible floating fortres the Pillar of Wind (Du199 p5); Ogremoch languishes in his mountain home bound by chains forged by Moradin (MM3 p162); Imix lives in exile in an active volcano (MM3 p112) - all within the Elemental Chaos.
Cryonax, Prince of Elemental Cold, is bound in a glacier in adamantine chains in the Elemental Chaos (Dr421 p12).
Piranoth, creator and master of the earth, frost, and fire giants, is imprisoned in the Elemental Chaos (RotG p24).
Timesus, the Black Star, is imprisoned in Death's Reach (Death's Reach p3).

A few scant primordials remain roaming the cosmos, somehow remaining hidden from the gods. Two of these include Iktha-Lau the Ever Empty and Ulctilantilokla (TBB p65). Homebrew: these primordials are hidden due to the efforts of Asmodeus, who knows if they are defeated he will have to give up his divine power as per his original agreement.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 06 Mar 2017 01:32:43
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KanzenAU
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After the Dawn War
The deities return to their divine dominions, finding that few of them have survived the devastation of the Dawn War and the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven (TPA p6).

Zehir strikes against the creator deity of humanity while the other gods are exhausted from the War, and alters countless numbers of them to become the yuan-ti. The other gods eventually regain enough strength to force Zehir to relinquish control of humanity, and they continue to argue for all time over who should have power over the race (MV p288) (homebrew: on Abeir-Toril, Zehir becomes known as Merrshaulk).

Homebrew: The deities begin work on a new Lattice, slowly incorporating the border dominions back into their divine domains. Erathis likely takes a prominent role in this with her Game of Making. The framework of this continuing work later becomes known by mortals as the Great Wheel.

The gods find they can't stop the flow of Agathys's abominations (which also spawn deity-killing things now, not just primordial killing-things), and wall off the dominion, creating the Red Prison of Carceri. The gods use it to house prisoners, and they agree not to interfere with each others' prisoners (TPA p104). Corellon, Sehanine, Avandra, and Melora don't believe the prison can succeed in containing the abominations within, and don't agree to this "Carceri Compact". They make it so that anything that escapes ends up the hunting grounds on Arvandor for them to destroy (TPA p38).

Gruumsh and Corellon do battle across the planes, and their allies clash against each other as well in a conflict known as the Godswar. Elves say that the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh only comes to an end when either Lolth, Sehanine, or both intervene; Corellon then slashes out Gruumsh's left eye and he is forced to retreat (orcs say that Gruumsh only ever had one eye, and that it was Corellon who ran). Corellon had only consented to the conflict to cut out Gruumsh's eye, which had powers of prescience. Some say that Gruumsh's blood then steeps into the Feywild and becomes the fomorians and cyclopes. Gruumsh's will, hate, and blood becomes the first orcs (Dr408 p5).

Bane, desiring a new domain, lays siege to the divine realm of Tuern, a god of war. When all is done, Tuern is dead and Bane becomes the ruler of Chernoggar. He plans a military offensive against the other divine realms, but finds them more organized and war-ready (led by the efforts of Erathis and Moradin) than before the Dawn War, and backs down (Dr 372 p27).

Gruumsh slams his domain of Nishrek into Bane's domain of Chernoggar, eager to take it for himself, and the two deities go to war (TPA p51, Dr 372 p27).

Sometime later...
Timing unknown, but presumably during Toril's Days of Thunder and Dawn Ages
Bane brings his teachings to the early goblin races. Maglubiyet tries to stamp out the heresy, but Bane confronts him directly and the goblin god becomes subservient to him (Dr 372 p27).

The demon lords Orcus, Demogorgon, and Rimmon attack Amoth, a god of justice and mercy in his domain of Kalandurren. Rimmon is slain by Amoth and Demogorgon is nearly split in two, but Orcus slays the god. The demon lords are soon driven off by the divine hosts of other gods, and Kalandurren is left a wasteland (4e MotP p46). Soon after, Demogorgon is attacked by the primordial Storralk, but Demogorgon defeats and imprisons him. Demogorgon's gaze falls upon the primordial's blood, and the ettins are created (MV p121).

Vecna, a mortal of great magical power on Oerth, is said to have become the first lich and have raised a great conquering army of undead; few know the truth of the many myths surrounding him. He is killed by his lieutenant Kas in the process of a ritual intended to make him a god, though his will survives and after a very long time, he becomes accepted as a demigod (Dr395 p23, Dr402 p5).

Vecna kills Laeris, a god of trickery and deceit, as he steals and drinks the Final Moment, which grants profound insight into the drinker's destiny. Some believe Laeris still lives, though only Vecna knows the truth (Dr390 p47).

The goddess of insects, Sagawehn, is slain by several powerful eladrin as she attempts to expand through Arvandor. No astral corpse remains however, and some suspect she lives on through her insects (Dr390 p48).

Nusemnee, goddess and daughter of Zehir, is redeemed by a priest of Pelor and begins to work against her father. She is eventually killed by a poison distilled from Zehir's blood (Dr390 p47).

First World (c. -35,000 to -25,000 DR): The core 4e setting is set sometime within 10,000 years of the end of the Dawn War (Du173 p41). This coincides with the Days of Thunder and the Dawn Ages on Toril.

Homebrew: Thousands of years later after the end of the Dawn War, the last of the primordials is finally imprisoned or slain and Asmodeus is forced to give up his divine power, though not his rulership of Baator.

Homebrew: The universe reorganizes under new rules with a largely reconstructed Lattice of Heaven. This new order becomes known as the Great Wheel. Many other changes occur at this time, including the moving of Tiamat's realm to Baator, and possibly other events such as the fall of the original Bane (though a mortal tyrant on Abeir-Toril later claims the title).

Toril's Days of Thunder
Abeir-Toril (c. -35,000 DR): Selune and Shar continue to fight, and during their battles many intelligent beings arise on Abeir-Toril. Modern scholars call the five greatest the creator races (FRCS p261). The Days of Thunder begin as the ice age ends, and the oceans recede to reveal the supercontinent of Merrouroboros (beneath (FRCG p42).

Abeir-Toril: The creation of the balancing force of Mystryl, made from the essence of both Selune and Shar, ends the battle between the divine sisters of light and darkness in an uneasy truce/continuing cold war (FRCS p260).

Abeir-Toril (c. -35,000 DR): The first empires of the creator races begin to rise on Abeir-Toril. The empires of the Sarrukh are the first of these, and will eventually be the first to decline, giving way to the zenith of batrachi power (GHotR p5-8).

Abeir-Toril (c. -31,000 DR): The batrachi, fighting a losing war against the titans of Annam's brood, release several primordials from their prisons in desperation. The primordials wrack the world with terrible earthquakes, fires, and windstorms (FRCG p41).

Abeir-Toril (c. -31,000 DR): The primordial calling herself Asgorath the World Shaper hurls an ice moon at Abeir-Toril, intent on destroying what she can't claim as her own (FRCG p41). This event, known as the Tearfall, devastates much of the planet, creates the Sea of Fallen Stars, and soon after tens of thousands of dragon eggs begin to hatch (GHotR p8). The destruction also sees the titans descend into the Great Sea, never to be seen from again (F&A p79).

Abeir-Toril (c. -31,000 DR): The devastation the primordials have wrought brings mass climate change and the end of the batrachi race on Abeir-Toril, though many escape to Limbo and establish the Supreme Throne. There they are transformed by Ramenos, Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer being among them (GHotR p5-8).

Abeir-Toril (c. -31,000 DR): Before the world is completely torn asunder, Ao creates a twin of Abeir-Toril. The primordials are granted dominion of the new world of Abeir, while the gods control the original world of Toril. Sarrukh accounts of this time remark on the "changing of the stars" (FRCG p41).

Abeir: The dragon steeds of the primordials rise against their weakened masters, slaying many until nearly all left retreat into the stones of the mountains and fall silent (FRCG p200).

Toril (c. -31,000 DR): The empires of the Aearee are the first to rise on the original world of Toril since the split with Abeir (GHotR p8).

Abeir: The triumphant dragons go to war against each other and those that remained loyal to the primordials in the War of Fang and Talon. They recklessly release much of the abandoned magic of the primordials, and much of Abeir is laid to waste. The few dragons that remain are few, scarred, and war-weary (FRCG p200).

Abeir: The legendary dragon Gorloun founds the first dragon empire in Abeir, beginning the Rule of Dragons. Draconic rule survives nearly unchallenged until the Spellplague (FRCG p200).

The Dawn Ages of Toril
Toril (c. -30,000 DR): The first Flight of Dragons on Toril occurs, bringing about the fall of the Aearee Empires and ushering in the Dawn Ages, and with it the Time of Dragons and the Time of Giants (GHotR p8).

Tens of thousands of years pass on Abeir and Toril, time enough for many things more to change throughout the multiverse...

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 06 Mar 2017 01:43:01
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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  04:23:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just giving this a bump, because its the middle of the night, and this is damn good work. I want to come back to it. Thank you. Oh, especially thank you on the noting the Abeir-Toril and Abeir and Toril bits in bold. That is very nice.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  06:20:56  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow...nice

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The Sage
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Oh, I'm liking this. And I think I'll be borrowing a snippet or three.

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KanzenAU
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Glad it's of use! I had most of this already written down from my 4e days, but I pretty much started from scratch again for this because none of my initial notes were sourced and I couldn't tell the lore from the homebrew.

I'm sure there's a few things I missed - I definitely missed the fates of a few primordials - so peeps feel free to chime in and I'll edit the above.

I'll keep a list of edits made here, so if people copy all the above they can note what was changed.

Edit: added in the fates of a few more primordials at the end of the Dawn War, as well as clarified some points about Nerull and the Raven Queen, and added that the first primordials sired other primordials.
Edit 2: fixed some grammatical errors and added in that Haramathur was the god of Erishani (info courtesy of ZeromaruX).

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 06 Mar 2017 01:43:54
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  15:49:35  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks! There are stuff I didn't have in my 4e core lore document. I will use this to update it, if you don't mind.

There is a minor problem in the timeline, though, regarding core 4e stuff. He Who Was was the creator of the human race. He was killed by Asmodeus, although some believe he was killed instead by Zehir, and Asmodeus just claimed his divinity. You're chronicling the same event twice in your timeline. That battle is hard to pinpoint in the general Dawn War.

Also, wasn't Zehir a proper god in the Realms? I recall seeing him in the 4e FRCG. Though they say he is an interloper, he is in the list of "minor gods" worshiped by the Faerunians.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  16:19:05  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is another reason I wish 5e had the lore books like the previous editions, did. Or at least more detail in the SCAG. This is a great compliation. I have some of the sourcebooks you referenced (I tend to go for ones that cover the deities). And I have the GHotR. I will have to go back and reread some of the stuff at some point, just to see what I can find, though you seem to have done anything pretty thorough job.

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Markustay
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I really need to pick through this with a fine tooth comb. Its an astouding amount of info you put together, Kanzen.

I've only read through the first of the three posts, and my eye is already twitching. Pelor and Ioun should NOT exist pre-Dawn War. Ioun we may be able to fudge by saying the netherese Ioun was named after the god, but Pelor should not be a 'primal god' - just not seeing it.*

And most of the stuff concerning Gruumsh and Corellon should take place after the Dawn War - they are part of 'the New Gods'. I didn't write the 4e article, but I WAS asked permission by the author to "use my ideas" (and felt very proud of that). Gruumsh and Corellon are both 'children of the Fey', so first-generations ELVES, and elves should NOT exist until after death comes into the world (to separate them from the immortal Fey Creator-Race).

In fact, I am 100% against anything but various degrees of 'primordial' existing pre-Dawn War. If Deities and Primordials are basically the same thing, than there is no point in even having both - its just a matter of semantics. 'Gods' is just a catch-all for anything very powerful that is 'beyond mortal comprehension' (so primitive people would even call nature-spirits 'gods').

And 4e specifically said that deities have priests and primordials did not (because they could neither deliver spells, nor get any benefit from having faithful). That may stomp on a bunch of 1e/2e/3e lore, but it is what it is, and I really hate that 5e is just re-stomping on all of that (because if thats the case, then we have to COMPLETELY IGNORE ALL 4E CANON... as the designers are obviously doing). You just can't have it both ways. We spent an entire edition trying to explain-away a lot of the inconsistencies, and now they are just ignoring the inconsistencies - that doesn't work for me. The 'going back to how it was' obliterates all our homebrew explanations, making the 4e lore completely irrelevant.

Still, you did a great job putting this all together. I was unaware of that Astral Sea source.


*Unless we say Pelor = Aumanator, which 'might' work, but Pelor is MUCH more like Lathander than Aumanator. Pelor has worshipers so he has to be a deity, NOT a primordial, and thus should not exist that early in the timeline.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2017 18:36:04
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  18:52:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The gods create the maruts to mediate divine dispute. They are created out of the soulstuff of unborn angels trapped by Torog, which is then channeled by Amoth and Tuern into bodies forged from the stuff of the Astral Sea by Moradin. The Maruts eventually create the Supernal script (TPA p98).
Supernal, eh? That certainly works for me.

But the rest confuses the heck out of me (especially since Torag in PF is basically Moradin). The 'unborn angels' just sounds like someone thought that up and it sounded cool (which it does, but it also makes no sense). So Maruts are basically undead aborted fetuses? Not really able to wrap my mind around any of that.

But my biggest problem comes in the wording, which may just be a minor 'lost in translation' problem - who created the Maruts? Was it Amoth & Tuern (why do those names sound familiar?), or was it Moradin? That sentence doesn't make it clear. Also, the dwarves had a god higher than Moradin - their 'High God' (no name given), from Complete Dwarves. Thats the god that should have been used for that bit - Moradin is another that should not be that 'primal'.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The Far Realm exists beyond the known universe, and the Living Gate, guarded by a being neither god nor primordial but kin to both, is a sleeping connection to it (4e DMG p161, PHB3 p4).

<snip>

Pelor, Ioun, and Tharizdun discover the Living Gate. Tharizdun distracts the guard, and all three peer in, and then leave, changed by what they saw (PHB3 p4).
I recently wrote in another thread how the Demiurge became Tharizdun by looking into the Far Realms, and since I never read that bit in 4e, I'm pretty stunned how well that lines up with my own thinking (but then again, its a fairly obvious trope to use). I used Eberus as my 'Gate Guardian', but otherwise, all of that works quite well for me (except Pelor and Ioun, but I covered that above).

i still think that the Obyrith's universe should be The Far Realms, and should also be the natural state of existence before the universe was created (in another thread I said how the universe is an ever-expanding bubble within the Far Realms, and how the things living there hated the universe for that - they look at it like a 'cancer' growing in their perfect realm. I also said that it was "making the Far Realms smaller" because off that, but the Far Realms are infinite, so making infinity 'smaller' is kind of a non-sequitur. I picture the Obyriths being like the Markovians in the Well World series of novels, except they didn't 'create' the universe within their own, mostly-empty universe (or did they? Something had to have been the catalyst to cause that first sentience/burst of energy to form into the 'Big Bang').

Just an aside: I also picture the Far Realms being just like 'Fluidic Space' (the home of Species 8472) in Star Trek. Its more of a liquid-like medium than just 'emptiness' as our universe is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2017 19:11:32
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  20:51:39  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But the rest confuses the heck out of me (especially since Torag in PF is basically Moradin).


Torog is a 4e core god, different from Moradin. He was the god of health, and now is the god of the Underdark.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, the dwarves had a god higher than Moradin - their 'High God' (no name given), from Complete Dwarves. Thats the god that should have been used for that bit - Moradin is another that should not be that 'primal'.


Well, the 4e team had a problem with 'too many gods'. So, I guess they just went with the more familiar Moradin, and discarded the unnecessary 'High God', that was just redundant with Moradin (who came before this 'High God', if wikipedia is to be belived) and was less known by players.

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Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Mar 2017 20:56:04
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  21:07:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I can't wrap my mind around the 'god of dwarves' existing before there were dwarves, since the way we know things work, deities NEED worshipers to survive. More WotC breaking their own rules/canon.

Retconning that more primal ('dwarf') god as a primordial (and I also think "The High god" is the same as Annam), and having all the race-specific deities showing up later, POST-Sundering (or at least, post-Godwar), makes so much more sense to me. There should not have been anything even approaching 'a religion' until AFTER all that went down.

The continuity is just all out-of-wack. If 'anything can be anything', then the lore becomes meaningless. What exactly is the difference between a mortal, an outsider (celestial), a deity, and a primordial? power levels? That makes no sense. D&D just becomes Dragonball-Z at that point.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  00:26:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If am not wrong, didn't this "deities NEED worshipers to survive" a rule being imposed by Ao in the Avatar novels? I was under the impression that, before that, gods didn't need worshipers at all to survive, they just had worshipers for personal purposes (good gods because they wanted to help mortals, evil gods because they wanted to be revered, and so on... there even existed uncaring gods who mistreated their worshipers —examples, the gods in the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, that enslaved their worshipers and that stuff).

AFAIK, this rule also applies only to the gods of the Realms, not to the gods of all the multiverse (at least, the 4e core pantheon didn't had that rule for its gods; dunno if the Greyhawk gods, or the Dragonlance gods, also needed worshipers just to survive).

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—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
718 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  00:52:29  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks! There are stuff I didn't have in my 4e core lore document. I will use this to update it, if you don't mind.

There is a minor problem in the timeline, though, regarding core 4e stuff. He Who Was was the creator of the human race. He was killed by Asmodeus, although some believe he was killed instead by Zehir, and Asmodeus just claimed his divinity. You're chronicling the same event twice in your timeline. That battle is hard to pinpoint in the general Dawn War.

Also, wasn't Zehir a proper god in the Realms? I recall seeing him in the 4e FRCG. Though they say he is an interloper, he is in the list of "minor gods" worshiped by the Faerunians.

You know, I used to think He Who Was was the creator of humanity too, but it never actually says that anywhere that I can find. We just know He Who Was lost his name, and so did the creator of humanity. But, so did the god of Shom (tied to humans too), and the god of Erishani... if you have a source to quote about He Who Was being humanity's creator, I'd love to see it.

Zehir, as far as I'm aware, only came into Realmspeak post-Spellplague (unless you count a NWN game). My theory is that he was there beforehand too, it's just he preferred to go by the alias Merrshaulk. The whole thing gets complicated when you start thinking about Set as Sseth and so forth, but I like complications for devious snake gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've only read through the first of the three posts, and my eye is already twitching. Pelor and Ioun should NOT exist pre-Dawn War. Ioun we may be able to fudge by saying the netherese Ioun was named after the god, but Pelor should not be a 'primal god' - just not seeing it.

The gods needing worshipers to exist is one way to look at cosmology, but it's not the only way. Planescape set out the two different ways of looking at things quite well (I believe in On Hallowed Ground, but I could be misremembering). Plus, if you're taking the Dawn War setting into your cosmology AND you're using the Great Wheel or something else later, we know a lot changed. Maybe gods only started needing worshipers later? This is a whole different discussion though.

Edit: Another way to look at it could be to say that this Pelor and Ioun were not the same as the later deities that assumed their names.
quote:
And most of the stuff concerning Gruumsh and Corellon should take place after the Dawn War - they are part of 'the New Gods'. I didn't write the 4e article, but I WAS asked permission by the author to "use my ideas" (and felt very proud of that). Gruumsh and Corellon are both 'children of the Fey', so first-generations ELVES, and elves should NOT exist until after death comes into the world (to separate them from the immortal Fey Creator-Race).

Got a source to quote on this? The 4e sources do say that many sages say they only fought after the Dawn War if that helps you.

Edit: As far as death not being around, if you're using core-4e there have been at least three deities of death before the Dawn War even ends - Aurom, Nerull, and the Raven Queen. Plus, I'd argue that even in core FR death came into being as a god on Abeir-Toril as soon as Shar and Selune started fighting, as per the FRCS.
quote:
In fact, I am 100% against anything but various degrees of 'primordial' existing pre-Dawn War. If Deities and Primordials are basically the same thing, than there is no point in even having both - its just a matter of semantics. 'Gods' is just a catch-all for anything very powerful that is 'beyond mortal comprehension' (so primitive people would even call nature-spirits 'gods').

Well, just going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think it's fine having both (though we know that I think primordials are essentially a different type of god, so I'm biased ).
quote:
But the rest confuses the heck out of me (especially since Torag in PF is basically Moradin). The 'unborn angels' just sounds like someone thought that up and it sounded cool (which it does, but it also makes no sense). So Maruts are basically undead aborted fetuses? Not really able to wrap my mind around any of that.

I really need to go back and fix my grammar in these posts. Here's the original, from The Plane Above, p98:
quote:
Even the oldest legends cannot agree on who proposed the solution, but it was Amoth and Moradin who made that solution reality. If the living were unsuitable for mediating divine disputes, then they would create mediators who were not living at all.
Moradin forged great bodies, not from metal or stone - though it resembled such substances - but from the stuff of the Astral Sea. From the spiritual energy of the Plane Above, Amoth took the soulstuff of unborn angels. He imprisoned those spirits with the aid of Torog - who even then showed talent for trapping, though he was not yet the god of the Underdark. Then, Amoth and Tuern channeled the spirits into these waiting bodies. Together, the gods breathed animation into their creation, and thus rose the first marut - a creature unborn, burning with the spirit of an angel yet lacking the slightest urge, need, or bias of the living. The gods brought their disputes to this creature, and whether or not they agreed with its decrees, they knew those judgments, at least, to be truly impartial.

quote:
Also, the dwarves had a god higher than Moradin - their 'High God' (no name given), from Complete Dwarves. Thats the god that should have been used for that bit - Moradin is another that should not be that 'primal'.

The text heavily implies there are primogenitors before the gods. Perhaps this 'High God' was one of these?
quote:
i still think that the Obyrith's universe should be The Far Realms, and should also be the natural state of existence before the universe was created (in another thread I said how the universe is an ever-expanding bubble within the Far Realms, and how the things living there hated the universe for that - they look at it like a 'cancer' growing in their perfect realm.

I think there's some room to move with the myth of the obyriths. The timeline isn't explicitly stated, so it could have been after the creation of the gods. Their dying universe could perhaps be the Far Realm, though I personally prefer a different spin.
quote:
Well, I can't wrap my mind around the 'god of dwarves' existing before there were dwarves, since the way we know things work, deities NEED worshipers to survive. More WotC breaking their own rules/canon.

I'm not sure that we do know that that was true for this time. I think the rules changed after the Dawn War, and my personal theory is that the Lattice of Heaven has been mostly fixed, creating the Great Wheel, removing the border dominions, and fixing the 'divine system' that we know was broken when the Lattice shattered into something new - which requires worshipers. Perhaps the shattering of the Lattice meant that much divine energy ended up in mortals or something, and the gods require worship to get it back? Plus, there are tens of millennia of time for things to change from the Dawn War status quo. Lots of room to move, I don't think WotC necessarily broke anything here.

Edit: Perhaps gods put a bit of their divine energy into mortals when they created them, but it didn't bother them at the time because they had the Lattice of Heaven, and all was well. Then, after the Lattice is shattered, they want that divine energy back - through worship. Just throwing ideas around.
quote:
What exactly is the difference between a mortal, an outsider (celestial), a deity, and a primordial? power levels? That makes no sense. D&D just becomes Dragonball-Z at that point.

This hasn't been explicitly spelled out in 4e lore, but it definitely seems like there's differences to me. At the minimum, deities and primordials are born/created by primogenitors, and birth more deities and primordials (the primordials "siring" them, whatever that means, and deities producing them through their divine conflicts). Deities directly create mortals. I think there's a lot we can do with all this, and since it's pre-any other FR lore there's room to move. I think the DBZ comparison is a bit unfair - though I do love that show, so maybe not...

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 05 Mar 2017 02:16:09
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  02:35:50  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

If am not wrong, didn't this "deities NEED worshipers to survive" a rule being imposed by Ao in the Avatar novels? I was under the impression that, before that, gods didn't need worshipers at all to survive, they just had worshipers for personal purposes (good gods because they wanted to help mortals, evil gods because they wanted to be revered, and so on... there even existed uncaring gods who mistreated their worshipers —examples, the gods in the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, that enslaved their worshipers and that stuff).

AFAIK, this rule also applies only to the gods of the Realms, not to the gods of all the multiverse (at least, the 4e core pantheon didn't had that rule for its gods; dunno if the Greyhawk gods, or the Dragonlance gods, also needed worshipers just to survive).



This is my impression too, especially since some of the demihuman gods created the races that worship them. Gods came before the mortals, so they didn't *need* them to survive. I realize not all the gods created a race, but the point is, the gods didn't spring from the mortals.

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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
300 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  02:41:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU


You know, I used to think He Who Was was the creator of humanity too, but it never actually says that anywhere that I can find. We just know He Who Was lost his name, and so did the creator of humanity. But, so did the god of Shom (tied to humans too), and the god of Erishani... if you have a source to quote about He Who Was being humanity's creator, I'd love to see it.


4e first PHB's entry about humans states that the creator god of humanity was killed by either a primordial or a deity. Among deities, Asmodeus and Zehir are credited by the deed. That's why many believe "He who Was" was the creator of humanity.

But yeah, you're right in that there is no exact source telling us that He who Was was the creator of humans.

BTW, Erishani's god was Haramathur, according to Dragon 390 (Dead Gods article).

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Zehir, as far as I'm aware, only came into Realmspeak post-Spellplague (unless you count a NWN game). My theory is that he was there beforehand too, it's just he preferred to go by the alias Merrshaulk. The whole thing gets complicated when you start thinking about Set as Sseth and so forth, but I like complications for devious snake gods.


But Zehir is Set, according to both 4e Races and Classes (that states Set was the prototype name of Zehir) and the 5e DMG.

quote:
i still think that the Obyrith's universe should be The Far Realms.


In fact, according to the main trilogy of the Abyssal Plague novels, the "Shard of Pure Evil" came to the "Core World" universe (or First World, as you called it) through the Living Gate (I don't remember if was in Oath of Vigilance or in The Eye of the Chained God, though). As 4e PHB III states that the Living Gate was the gate that separated the universe from the Far Realm, we can safely assume that the obyriths either were from the Far Realm or at least knew how to get there and use it as a pathways across the multiverse, and used the Far Realm to sent the Shard to another universe when their universe was destroyed.

quote:
I'm not sure that we do know that that was true for this time. I think the rules changed after the Dawn War, and my personal theory is that the Lattice of Heaven has been mostly fixed, creating the Great Wheel, removing the border dominions, and fixing the 'divine system' that we know was broken when the Lattice shattered into something new - which requires worshipers. Perhaps the shattering of the Lattice meant that much divine energy ended up in mortals or something, and the gods require worship to get it back? Plus, there are tens of millennia of time for things to change from the Dawn War status quo. Lots of room to move, I don't think WotC necessarily broke anything here.


I also had this theory for my game table. That the Lattice of Heaven was the connection that held together the Great Wheel.

quote:
What exactly is the difference between a mortal, an outsider (celestial), a deity, and a primordial? power levels? That makes no sense. D&D just becomes Dragonball-Z at that point.


But, there is a difference between gods and mortals in Dragon Ball. Even Goku using God-ki is unable to defeat the God of Destruction in Dragon Ball Super. Without God-ki, mortals are mere microbes to the gods, as well.

—Is there a catch?
—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Mar 2017 02:42:11
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  02:59:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, my stance has always been that deities are ascended mortals (and 'may' have come from the pre-mortal immortals - MAN, is that confusing!) The way they become deities is very much how many RW 'sages' feel most deities were created - they were real people, who became 'legendary', and through that status (popularity/notoriety) they achieved ascendence. Thus, its not so much an arbitrary rule about "ogds need worshipers', as it is the fact that the worshipers have to come first. Thats what a a deity is - something that receives worship. Its part of the 'creation process'. Otherwise, there is no reason to even differentiate between 'god' and 'deity'.

So deities are 'born', and primordials were created, by an even higher tier of beings. But once you get into deities and primordials creating gods, that can go either way (I can picture a pregnant deity, but NOT a pregnant primordial). There also instances where a god creates another god solo (lots of that, actually), and even more than two gods being involved, so the entire concept of 'sex' among god-level beings is ridiculous (unless you're a Greek God,... they seem to thoroughly enjoy that sort of thing... too much... even with animals...). So at that level of power, 'procreation' becomes a simple act of exchanging energies, to create something new.

I get the 'dead angels' thing now. Its not very different than how I picture most things planer - lesser beings (outsiders not of the 'god tier') are not truly individuals, at least, not at first. They are just formed out of the 'Planestuff' of all the different planes (different planes can create different beings, because their nature is different). This is actually how it was always presented for fiends, and I just extrapolated that outward (not sure what PS says about all that - its been years since I read through any of that material). These beings just form out of the material of the plane itself, as the need arises. They are basically very simple 'clones', at first, almost exactly like elementals (elementals just being the version from elemental planes). Thus an 'angel' is actually just an elemental of lawful goodness. If they manage to stick around awhile (and gain some levels), they start to have individual names, and even individual personalities, and in some cases, can even have their own agendas (as did Asmodeus).

I have been thinking a LOT about that 'before universe' and The Far Realms, but I don't want to clog up another thread (there are several now, all inter-related). Once I get my thoughts straight on the matter. I may create another thread for just "Aberrations, The Far Realms, and antideluvian horrors" (which is REALLY weird, considering NONE of that is 'my cup of tea'). There is something about the Illithids, and the Gith race that we've been overlooking. I used to never really care for the Daemons (loths and Obyriths), but now I am starting to see them as more 'alien' than 'evil', the Obyriths at least. I'm really infatuated with picturing them as Markovians (Well World series) in a fairly empty universe, with maybe only a few others for company (abolthes, and probably beholders). I may borrow a term from the Chronicles of Riddick movie - the 'Underverse'. A universe hidden from most mortals, that lies 'beneath the surface' of our own. It meshes well with some Lovecraftian stuff (that those 'things' on the other side only notice YOU, when you start to notice THEM).

Maybe those 'Seven Stars' in Mystra's symbol are really Elder signs.
Speaking of which, we never figured out what those represented, either. Who/what were these 'Seven'?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2017 03:04:23
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  03:36:30  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My stance on deities is a bit different. Some are ascended mortals, yes, and became deities through apotheosis or something, but most deities were "born" deities, whether they are interlopers or "natives".

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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
718 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  04:58:43  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

4e first PHB's entry about humans states that the creator god of humanity was killed by either a primordial or a deity. Among deities, Asmodeus and Zehir are credited by the deed. That's why many believe "He who Was" was the creator of humanity.

But yeah, you're right in that there is no exact source telling us that He who Was was the creator of humans.

That's why I just listed the Zehir as the killer, as that got a specific mention in Monster Vault. I was surprised too!
quote:
BTW, Erishani's god was Haramathur, according to Dragon 390 (Dead Gods article).

Thanks for that, I must have glazed over that part! I'll add it into the main post.
quote:
Originally posted by ZeromaruX

But Zehir is Set, according to both 4e Races and Classes (that states Set was the prototype name of Zehir) and the 5e DMG.

I'm not so sure this is the case... the Races and Classes story was specifically discarded, they say they didn't use it on the same page they write it down. I also couldn't find anything saying they're the same in the 5e DMG or MM. Zehir and Sseth also seem to be separate entities in the 4e FRCG (eg. p65, p80). I'm not a yuan-ti god expert though, I just said Zehir might be Merrshaulk because they're both yuan-ti creator deities.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 05 Mar 2017 04:59:05
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
300 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  05:54:39  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Races and Classes story was discarded at first, but then reutilized in the Yuan-ti entry of the Monster Vault. Though, it what you say is true, Sseth seems different from Zehir.

This however, becomes complicated when we take into account that they made Zehir being just Set renamed in the 5e DMG.


—Is there a catch?
—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Mar 2017 05:55:35
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