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KanzenAU
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Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  06:23:33  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where does it say that in the 5e DMG? Can't find that anywhere...

Edit: The complication I was originally speaking of was of Sseth going into a slumber and Set pretending to be him. That pretty much ended around the time of the Spellplague (p166 FRCG), and Set abandoned that ruse. There's a lot more on that time in Serpent Kingdoms.

On relooking at the DMG, I see the confusion. p11 has a sample pantheon as an example of how to create your own pantheon, based on the Dawn War pantheon. They explain how they took different deities from the different settings to inspire their 4e pantheon. They took the idea of Set and renamed it Zehir, as they explained in Races and Classes.

This doesn't mean Set and Zehir are the same thing - it means Set was a real world inspiration for the creation of the deity Zehir.

As of 5e, we know Set is back in Mulhorand, and I'd assume Sseth's dominance in Faerun is still being challenged by the "interloper" Zehir as it was in 4e.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 05 Mar 2017 07:07:19
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5800 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  14:31:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, on this piece
******
The Far Realm exists beyond the known universe, and the Living Gate, guarded by a being neither god nor primordial but kin to both, is a sleeping connection to it (4e DMG p161, PHB3 p4).
******

I'm seeing it as the far realm must have a link via "the realm of nightmares" which is guarded by a primordial that eats dreams.... so possibly Dendar the Night Serpent has some ties to guarding the world from the Far Realm.


On the side idea of who created humans, I think we'll run into issues if we don't accept that maybe multiple beings "created humans". In fact, in what I read of Malatra, there are "humans" there who came from elsewhere with only 4 fingers. They interbred with the humans of the jungle, and the fifth finger must have been dominant. So, I'd probably go with a mixture of both evolution AND multiple creations. I'd actually do the same thing with some of the elves, dwarves, etc.... Some of the gods may have shared "templates" for life creation. For instance, the Azer dwarves... I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually created by some being with ties to fire. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves of Anchorome had no involvement with the Seldarine, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  14:43:23  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're probably right. That's pretty much what the designers said in Races & Classes - there's enough written about humans already, no need to overcomplicate it. But then they do it anyway in Monster Vault... though I'm not near my books atm, maybe it's just portrayed as yet another myth that could be true or false.

As for the Azer, I think there was something in one of the 4e books about them, but I forget...

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  16:36:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thinking is that either there was a single, primal world (or sphere) where everything was done before, and then spread from that single common point, or that after this original place was lost, the same templates created there were just used over and over. Why create something wholly new when you've already got the plans for a proven working model?

It also occurs to me that maybe the Far Realm (a concept I really hate, BTW) could have been the origin of all things. Maybe the Far Realm was once relatively normal, but then something was released or went wonky, and everything that could fled into the D&D multiverse and made sure to close the door behind them.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14014 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  17:27:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, on this piece
******
The Far Realm exists beyond the known universe, and the Living Gate, guarded by a being neither god nor primordial but kin to both, is a sleeping connection to it (4e DMG p161, PHB3 p4).
******

I'm seeing it as the far realm must have a link via "the realm of nightmares" which is guarded by a primordial that eats dreams.... so possibly Dendar the Night Serpent has some ties to guarding the world from the Far Realm.


On the side idea of who created humans, I think we'll run into issues if we don't accept that maybe multiple beings "created humans". In fact, in what I read of Malatra, there are "humans" there who came from elsewhere with only 4 fingers. They interbred with the humans of the jungle, and the fifth finger must have been dominant. So, I'd probably go with a mixture of both evolution AND multiple creations. I'd actually do the same thing with some of the elves, dwarves, etc.... Some of the gods may have shared "templates" for life creation. For instance, the Azer dwarves... I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually created by some being with ties to fire. I wouldn't be surprised if the elves of Anchorome had no involvement with the Seldarine, etc...
Not a fan of the whole 'parallel evolution' thing - it was used in ST:tOS way too much. However, going with what Wooly just said (which sounds like my decade of proselytizing certain concepts has paid off ), perhaps we can come up with a psuedo-scientific explanation for it. I've said elsewhere that each 'piece' of that original, 'lost' world holds the 'code' of the original (like DNA for the universe), so it could just be that certain things will always happen, with mostly slight - but sometimes dramatic - variation. "All worlds are but pale reflections of the True World" (and as I've also said elsewhere, that would have been a flat world - just one ginormous plane, the size of the universe (which was probably MUCH smaller back then).

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

You're probably right. That's pretty much what the designers said in Races & Classes - there's enough written about humans already, no need to overcomplicate it. But then they do it anyway in Monster Vault... though I'm not near my books atm, maybe it's just portrayed as yet another myth that could be true or false.


quote:
Page 288, Monster Vault
World Domination: When the gods were in the midst of creating the creatures of the world. Zehir found he could not craft his own creature, so he decided to steal one. He appealed to Avandra to teach him how to change the creations of others. At first Avandra refused, but through his silver tongue, Zehir convinced her. Despite being enamored of Zehir. Avandra did attach a condition to his power of alteration: He could change a creature only with its creator's permission. Zehir saw only one way to have his will: to kill humanity's creator so that no one existed to deny him the permission he required.
After the Dawn War ended and the other gods had exhausted much of their strength, Zehir remained strong and vigilant for his opportunity. When the time came, he murdered the now-forgotten creator of humans and laid claim to the race as his own.


I think that about covers it. Weird, because I had originally thought Zehir was just a alias of Asmodeus, but then recently I theorized that set IS Asmodeus - they're all a good fit. I never thought about Zehir and Set being the same (unless it was a long time ago and I just forgot LOL). The 'scaly-gods' are a rough one - they all seem to be aspects of one being, and yet, are also all separate beings (which I've worked into my proto-cosmology regarding the World Serpent).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It also occurs to me that maybe the Far Realm (a concept I really hate, BTW) could have been the origin of all things. Maybe the Far Realm was once relatively normal, but then something was released or went wonky, and everything that could fled into the D&D multiverse and made sure to close the door behind them.
I feel your pain. I've rage against all the 'Lovecraftian' stuff that has been shoveled into The Realms since the end of 3e.

However, you seem to also be like me, in that you are 'coming around' to seeing the usefulness of some of that kind of lore, especially regarding the 'Time before time' kind of stuff, and the Obyriths, and the Godwar (what we FR fans used to call The war of Light & Darkness... which is a mouthful... and may not even be precisely the same event). I prefer t to remain in the 'distant past', with a lot of it below the surface (literally, like Aboleths, etc). I've never been a fan of Cthulhu stuff, but I know enough to know it works better when its all left mysterious, and NOT so damn overt (you know, like giant flying Aboleth cities, etc). You can't get that 'creepy' feel when you've turned Cthulhu into a Kaiju.

But a pre-universe, thats literally like a 'primoridial soup' (fluidic space) is a pretty nifty idea, and I like picturing things that way, rather than some sort of bad, Roger Dean acid trip. I also like my latest theory that the Obyriths created the D&Dverse (maybe on accident, maybe on purpose), which is why they are the ultimate 'Keepers of the Truth'. They'd be the only ones (coming from a pre-verse) that would be mostly unaffected by all these 'changes to the timeline'. This whole thing could just be some sort of petri dish type experiment of theirs.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
239 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  21:22:07  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not a fan of the whole 'parallel evolution' thing - it was used in ST:tOS way too much. However, going with what Wooly just said (which sounds like my decade of proselytizing certain concepts has paid off ), perhaps we can come up with a psuedo-scientific explanation for it.


Sure, parallel evolution makes no sense in a nominally scientific setting, but in a completely fantastical setting, with powerful gods and wizards? Seems like a perfect explanation to me. :)

We already have canonical parallel creation with Krynn anyway.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
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Edited by - AuldDragon on 05 Mar 2017 21:23:09
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  23:12:23  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

My thinking is that either there was a single, primal world (or sphere) where everything was done before, and then spread from that single common point, or that after this original place was lost, the same templates created there were just used over and over. Why create something wholly new when you've already got the plans for a proven working model?

On that idea, another name for core-4e's world is the "First Work".
quote:
From the Dungeon Master's Guide (4e), p160

The world has no proper name, but it bears a wide variety of prosaic and poetic names among those people who ever find need to call it anything but “the world.” It’s the creation, the middle world, the natural world, the created world, or even the First Work.

The dates of core-4e also give us some flexibility with how we use this "First Work": as pointed out in the main post, core-4e is supposed to take place less than 10,000 years after the Dawn War, lining up in FR with either the Days of Thunder or the Dawn Ages, depending on exact timing. So, that "First Work" could well have been destroyed long ago if that fits your personal cosmology, and I don't think you'd have to change anything.

At the moment I quite like the idea of the races (that date back to the Dawn War or before) all migrating in different ways from the First Work, and ending up on Abeir-Toril. The humans came through a portal in the Days of Thunder, the dwarves fought their former masters the giants from world to world until they ended up in those southern mountains near Zakhara, the elves migrated from their destroyed home of Tintageer in the Feywild, etc...

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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 06 Mar 2017 :  00:30:42  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

We already have canonical parallel creation with Krynn anyway.


Bit of a sidetrek, but does anyone know good resources for learning about the prehistory and cosmology of Krynn and Oerth?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 06 Mar 2017 :  01:09:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, for the most part, Oerth's cosmology is Planescape (The Great Wheel).

I have no idea about Krynn; my DL knowledge is just a very light understanding of some of the core concepts (and when it comes to Takhisis, I am totally confused).

In what way do we have 'parallel evolution' with Krynn? Are you talking about the ogres, because I figured-out a work around for that years ago (very simple really, and OD&D gave me the idea - in that setting, Ogres were goblinoids). My conclusion: 'Ogre' is just a generic, cross-setting term for any 'big brutish race' that arises.

FR even has three major groups of them, and only two are related (AFAIK).

The other races are easy enough, even the kender - just 'regional variants'. I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.

Hmph... maybe 'halflings' are the real race, and WE are just 'half-giants'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 06 Mar 2017 :  03:10:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Halflings weren't the real race in Dark Sun?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30201 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2017 :  04:06:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It also occurs to me that maybe the Far Realm (a concept I really hate, BTW) could have been the origin of all things. Maybe the Far Realm was once relatively normal, but then something was released or went wonky, and everything that could fled into the D&D multiverse and made sure to close the door behind them.
I feel your pain. I've rage against all the 'Lovecraftian' stuff that has been shoveled into The Realms since the end of 3e.

However, you seem to also be like me, in that you are 'coming around' to seeing the usefulness of some of that kind of lore, especially regarding the 'Time before time' kind of stuff, and the Obyriths, and the Godwar (what we FR fans used to call The war of Light & Darkness... which is a mouthful... and may not even be precisely the same event). I prefer t to remain in the 'distant past', with a lot of it below the surface (literally, like Aboleths, etc). I've never been a fan of Cthulhu stuff, but I know enough to know it works better when its all left mysterious, and NOT so damn overt (you know, like giant flying Aboleth cities, etc). You can't get that 'creepy' feel when you've turned Cthulhu into a Kaiju.



Well, I'm still undecided as to whether or not to even accept primordials -- I really dislike everything about the whole Abeir/Toril retcon, and that includes primordials.

And honestly, I'm going more from Spelljammer lore than anything else, which posited a panspermia theory for why the basic D&D races and critters keep appearing all over the place. And honestly, it's always made more sense to me, that way.

The Far Realm connection is for me a new idea... But since I'm not a fan of the Far Realm, it's more a "hey, this is an idea" thing than a "here's my theory" thing.

It'd not be the first time I put a new spin on something or speculated about something I didn't actually like or support. It's more of a thought exercise thing, for me.

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AuldDragon
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Posted - 06 Mar 2017 :  08:28:06  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, for the most part, Oerth's cosmology is Planescape (The Great Wheel).


Greyhawk's history is pretty light more than five hundred years prior to the present of the setting; about all that's known is that the Suel and Baklunish empires destroyed each other at some point, and the descent of the drow happened at some point too.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I have no idea about Krynn; my DL knowledge is just a very light understanding of some of the core concepts (and when it comes to Takhisis, I am totally confused).


Dragonlance was incorporated into the Great Wheel pretty quickly after its publication. In Dragonlance Adventures, it basically only mentions three locations, with absolutely no details; one of those is "The Abyss" as the home of Takhisis and the evil gods (and said in Planescape to be a lack of understanding by the clueless of Krynn, using that term to refer to *all* the lower planes). Some have called these three names an independent cosmology, but I've seen no evidence from early material that it was intended to be.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In what way do we have 'parallel evolution' with Krynn? Are you talking about the ogres, because I figured-out a work around for that years ago (very simple really, and OD&D gave me the idea - in that setting, Ogres were goblinoids). My conclusion: 'Ogre' is just a generic, cross-setting term for any 'big brutish race' that arises.


I'm talking about almost every race on Krynn, minus a few that are canonically from elsewhere (such as the Yaggol, who are degenerate illithids), which are either the creation of the gods or alterations of the existing races to new ones by the Greystone of Gargath. Ogres (the original ones, who were beautiful), humans, gnomes, elves, and standard animals were all created by the gods (dragons arose independently from the world itself). Standard ogres, goblins, giants, and minotaurs were bred by and from the original irda-like stock; the Greystone created thanoi (walrus-men) from minotaurs, trolls from giants, and kobolds, hobgoblins, and bugbears from goblins. The Greystone created dwarves and kender from gnomes (who were originally created from human stock by Reorx). Magical beasts such as pegasi and griffons arose from normal animals because of the Greystone. Finally, the Greystone created the dimernesti and dargonesti aquatic elves from earlier elven stock.

Did they "evolve" the way we know it in the real world? No, but they "evolved" in a magical way that mirrored the creation/evolution of such races on other worlds. Astinus of Palanthus recorded at least the Greystone events, so we know they happened. Many of these elements are detailed in Dragonlance Adventures and Tales of the Lance, as well as other early products.

Dragonlance is a co-equal setting; if its canon says that common creatures arose independently there, changing that to fit a unified origin favored by a non-Dragonlance fan places Dragonlance in a subordinate position, and that strikes me as unfair to fans of the other setting. It's the same reason I dismiss the elements of the Complete Book of Elves that states the elves of Krynn were immigrants from off-world; Dragonlance canon overrides non-Dragonlance explanations for Dragonlance elements.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings.


I don't see it as problematic, especially considering Athas had gods at that time.

Local canon supercedes external canon when there's a conflict. There's no canonical Greyhawk origin for most of its races (although there is for some--derro on Oerth were created from Suel experiments for example), and they had their own descent of the drow. But the elves of Greyhawk have no firm origin, so they could be from offworld (although they really don't resemble FR elves, so they can't be from there, or from the same sources as FR's immigrant elves).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 06 Mar 2017 :  16:03:39  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.



Actually, this isn't all that weird. And it is supported by FR Lore, since Yondalla is specifically referenced as the Halfling name for Chauntea. Which means that the Halflings are the race created by Chauntea...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 07 Mar 2017 :  02:59:09  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Yondalla a separate entity until 4e, when they tried to make some gods "aspects" of other gods? In the SCAG she is listed as a separate goddess, so...

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

We already have canonical parallel creation with Krynn anyway.


Bit of a sidetrek, but does anyone know good resources for learning about the prehistory and cosmology of Krynn and Oerth?

Well, I can help you with Krynn, since it's a world I've been involved with since it's earliest publications.

As for Oerth, I'd recommend the Canonfire site.

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KanzenAU
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Posted - 07 Mar 2017 :  06:47:27  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Well, I can help you with Krynn, since it's a world I've been involved with since it's earliest publications.

As for Oerth, I'd recommend the Canonfire site.


I'll have a look at that. I'm looking to create a comprehensive cosmology of the planes for my own FR game, with connections to other known worlds including Krynn, Oerth, and potentially Athas. I think it would be really cool if their histories could be worked into a document to be looked at alongside the history of the Realms. A Grand History of the Multiverse, if you will.

Aligning the Calendars
As far as I can tell from quick searches, the pre-history of Krynn and Oerth doesn't seem to go back more than about ten thousand years. Without knowing anything about the settings beyond the superficial, my guess is that to work them into a multiverse-wide chronology their worlds would have to have been created later than Abeir-Toril. Or, the worlds were there, but the gods didn't start really working with them until later. That is, if you want the meetings of the Three Wizards and such forth to be true (or at least possible), which I do.

From googling about it seems there's contradictory information out there on the corresponding years in different crystal spheres. This source puts 1361 DR was 581 CY on Oerth, and 358 AC on Krynn. Assuming time flows the same in the different spheres (though some sources say that it doesn't), that puts the current year of 1491 DR on Toril as 711 CY on Oerth and 488 AC on Krynn. I know there was once a BRJ resource out there on this, but it seems to be down.

Krynn
This source puts the creation of the world of Krynn at around 10,000 PC (-8,997 DR) - around the same time as the end of the last Crown War and the beginning of the Founding Time on Toril. The creation of mortals seems to occur at around 9,000 PC (-7,997 DR), which is around the time of the arrival of Calim, the Early Dynastic Period of Imaskar, and the Mindstalker Wars in Shanatar. However, other sources don't give a date for the creation of Krynn, so I'm not sure what the situation is.

Is it possible the "Age of Starbirth" and time of creation was actually spread out over a much longer time?

Oerth
As far as I can tell, there aren't really any concrete dates for anything earlier than about 1,000 years before the present day in Greyhawk. The oldest calendar is that of 'Suloise', which would be at 7,006 SD in 1491 DR, or about -5,515 DR at 0 SD. This correlates with the height of High Shanatar and the founding of Jhaamdath's cities. I doubt 0 SD is the creation of the Greyhawk world though.

From what I can tell, Gygax purposefully left Greyhawk's prehistory open to DMs so they could do what they wanted with it. It was blank by purpose, not by neglect.

Athas
I don't really have any idea where to start on this one, it's way out of my wheelhouse and I don't have the energy to tackle it today.

Can they fit?
As far as I can tell, yes. At least I don't see anything that excludes all that Dawn War stuff happening, as irrelevant as it may be to the settings. All three spheres and their worlds may have even been created around the same time as Abeir-Toril, only being populated by the gods much later.

Interested to see what people more experienced with such things have to say. I foresee integrating Planescape and Spelljammer in my future too...

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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 07 Mar 2017 :  15:12:29  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Wasn't Yondalla a separate entity until 4e, when they tried to make some gods "aspects" of other gods? In the SCAG she is listed as a separate goddess, so...



I thought that equivalency pre-dated 4e (thought I had read it in Faiths & Pantheons)... but, perhaps I am mistaken. It wouldn't be the first time.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 07 Mar 2017 :  19:00:39  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I looked at both their descriptions in Faiths and Pantheons, along with Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Avatars, and I couldn't find anything mentioning Yondalla and Chauntea being aspects of each other, unless I missed something.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 08 Mar 2017 :  03:33:13  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My copy of Player's Guide to Faerun finally arrived today! Now I have more references lol

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  15:34:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm waiting to see that updated theory :D

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14014 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  20:49:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who's? Mine? Or everyones?

@AuldDragon - I actually go with Complete Elves on this one. I think (as in, 'the way I spin things IMG... which actually has ZERO bearing on the game LOL) that 'local lore' is more of 'legends' stemming from the 'dawn of time', which could refer to the very earliest beginnings of civilization on the world, or even some sort of 'racial memory' from the first World (which was destroyed during the Dawn War).

The 'First World' theory goes all the way back to the very first issue of Dragon magazine, in an article written by Gygax himself (under a pseudonym). It was the world that 'all other worlds are mere reflection'of. I'v been running with that for years, building upon it for every cosmology/religion/'Creation theory' both RW and imagined, so it would continue to be all-inclusive. I've shared bits and pieces of that over the years, mostly here, but also for awhile on the WotC site (back in its heyday). I refer to it as my 'Theory of Everything'.

I picture the original 'cosmology' (not really so much a cosmology at that point, as it was 'just the way things were shaping-up) very close to that of the Norse (and Yggdrasil is probably a vestige leftover from that). 'The World' was just one ginormous, flat plane. The Prime Material Plane. Then you had some sort of 'headquarters' for the gods - an early precursor to 'heaven' (the upper planes) that sat 'above the world', and then you also had some grimy 'underbelly' of the universe, where all the crap got dumped, and all the ugly infrastructure got laid (kind of like NYC's subway/tunnel systems... on steroids). This would be our proto-hells (lower planes).

Then in 4e/5e all of this became sort-of canon.I say 'sort of', because there is quite a bit that still contradicts itself, and certainly contradicts prior lore, but basically, it all comes down to some 'first world' that was shattered (Sundered) and split into all the Crystal Spheres (and planes) we see now today. I guess all 'the Gods' (pretty much anything higher than 'mortal level' back then) scrambled to save as much as they could. I like the premise set forth in Guide to Hell - that two Uber-dragons (Gods, really, of an insane magnitude) created the Great Wheel. I believe the story itself is a 'legend', but based on fact.

And not all worlds would have been created at the same time - this is where we can get our differing 'start dates' for the various settings. And depending on the Gods involved (in its creation), different worlds would have different 'rules', like whether it would be an 'open' or 'closed' Sphere. Of course, a lot of that could have aso happened over time (with some Powers getting upset when others tried to interlope on their 'creation'). I think Abeir was created at this time, but I think it was more of a 'leftovers box' - like those legos you didn't use when your built your thingy. Made other worlds had an Abeir-equivalent', or maybe Ao was one of the BBG's and he got handed the bits and pieces of 'scrap' to save for later (and this how we get weird amalgams, like the 4e world of Nerath... which may have even been Abeir). Perhaps Ravenloft is also something akin to this - some half-formed proto-Power trying to grab bits and pieces for itself, to hobble together a world (and who knows? maybe someday Ravenloft will be able to break-free from the shadows, and have its own Crystal Sphere, once there is enough mass).

So, the 'Big Bang' happened a LONG time ago, but its still going on (sort of like RW science, eh?) Piece are still being swapped-around between worlds. As for Toril, it seems to be some sort of 'Cosmic Crossroads', and was probably a piece of that proto-world that had some sort of significance (like the 'Grand Central Station' of that First World?) But ALL worlds we have today (D&D and otherwise, if we go with an 'Omniverse') are parts of that first world, and thus, the in-setting legends of their creations could stem from that first World. Maybe Corellon created elves on one world, but someone else did it on Krynn (which were just huge 'neighborhoods' on that First World). 'The Gods' were building the universe (simple model that it was at that time) - think 'Time Bandits' (and YES, the dwarves were created at that time to help with its constructions, as were the terrestrial dragons & giants).

So the way I look at it, all the individual settings creation-theories and legends are right, up to a point, but are also wrong, because they don't take into account that they were all apart of something greater once. So between THAT, and all the cross-setting immigration (planer, SJ, 'malfunctioning portals', deific interloping, and even mad archwizards stealing entire populations), that is why we have so many similar things on so many different worlds. And despite some planes being 'closed' (Athas, and perhaps Eberron, etc), there still seems to be some cross-pollination, despite an active attempt to stop it.

Who knows, maybe Athas was the Halfling 'homeworld', and that could apply to SJ, but it could also apple to its position on the First World - its where certain gods created the halflings. This is why Hin have become the 'eternal wanderers' - their world became 'burnt out' of magic, and can no longer be reached by normal means.

Of course, that blows my theory that there must be some sort of urchin-like, furry-legged 'Ling' humanoid out there somewhere (fauns?). One that was apparently very charming and had a 'way with women'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2017 21:35:11
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6260 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  04:37:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think Athas gives us even more problems, if we take its prehistory as 'canon' rather than legend. Supposedly ALL the intelligent species there sprung from halflings. Weird.

Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.

[/Ayrik]
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  05:53:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Who's? Mine? Or everyones?


Everyones. Even if it just theories and fan stuff, it helps me to improve my realmslore, that is sadly very, very minimal.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
418 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  09:29:02  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.


Githyanki are originaly humans so how could a semi-reptilian evolve from them?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30201 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  16:12:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Not quite all. Kreen are just kreen, they may have both originated on the same world but are otherwise entirely unrelated. The semi-reptilian Giths are degenerate Githyanki spawned from the Astral (or wherever), not a species "evolved" on Athas.


Githyanki are originaly humans so how could a semi-reptilian evolve from them?



They could have wound up somewhere that favored those reptilian features, or they could have picked up some disease that caused those features and then bred true, or it could have been a magical, forced evolution.

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