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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6260 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  22:51:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I've a long established Realmslore tidbit [or hint, rather] that suggests "Leira" might be an archaic term for the more modern "The [Divine] Liar" in, perhaps, High Thayvian or somesuch.

I assume "High Thayan" is a refined form of Thayan or Thayvian, the native language spoken in Thay? Perhaps a rarified form of the language used for formal address, government functions, and Red Magic?

Thayan/Thayvian language is derived from Mulhorandi language. Although I'm sure the peoples of Thay and Mulhorand would be reluctant to admit it - indeed, I'd think Thay likely teaches some revisionist "history" to reinforce their notions of superiority and plausibly handwave away any "coincidental" linguistic similarities.

The Mulan peoples originated in Earth's ancient Egypt, being forcibly migrated/imported to the Realms by Raurin wizard-rulers (and Ptah) circa -4370DR. This would be circa 3709BC to 3844BC on our calendar, late into Egypt's "Predynastic period", so it seems the Mulhorandi language would primarily be derived from the ancient Egyptian spoken at that time. Mulhorandi originally used the Celestial alphabet, and the history of the Mulan peoples is dominated by themes of endless slavery, servitude, and oppression (along with endless struggles against them), so their language has probably developed subtle and sophisticated ways of communicating these philosophically "aligned" cultural concepts. Mulhorandi later used the Thorass alphabet, probably influenced by the Common tongue and contact with the languages (and writings) of neighbouring nations. Curiously, Egyptian hieroglyphics and the majority of deities in the Mulhorandi pantheon (as they are depicted in Realmslore, anyhow) were not features of ancient Egypt until many, many centuries later; indeed, many of them were not contemporaries, they were separated by a thousand years or more. (The "related" Untheric/Babylon pantheon also didn't appear on Earth until circa 2300BC, approximately 2400 years after it appeared in the Realms.)

I blame this all on bad writing and worse research. People have a tendency to lump all of "Ancient Egypt" together, as if every "Ancient Egyptian" spoke the same language and lived the same culture and practiced the same religion over dozens of dynasties and twice as many centuries. For comparison, consider how "Ancient Roman" (latin) has evolved into a family of a dozen languages and how Judaism has evolved through many forms of Christianity and how nations and governments have changed many times over 2000 years. People from opposite ends of these millennia would hardly recognize each other.

Thayan/Thayvian language is originally derived from Mulhorandi. Thay as a nation has only been around since 922DR, a mere 434 to 569 years. Interestingly, Thayan/Thayvian (and Red Magic) was initially influenced by the Infernal alphabet, probably a severe mental shift away its Mulhorandi/Celestial genesis.

[/Ayrik]
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2005 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  00:35:31  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5800 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  02:30:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ulutiu didn't look 'human', not by a longshot. He looked more like a giant baby-penguin, near as I could tell from the description. Even acted like a penguin. And Ubtao - I have NEVER pictured him being anything remotely resembling a humanoid. {see other thread for more}




From P&P
Ulutiu appears as a stocky human male of indeterminate ancestry. His arms and legs are short and thick and his fingers resemble plump sausages. He has raven black hair and ice blue skin. His face is round with impossibly deep blue eyes, a flat nse, and tiny ears pressed flat against his head.

Not sounding like a penguin to me.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5800 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  02:34:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?



The image that people see from the surface of Toril is an illusion. It hides the fact that there are people living on the moon.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  03:32:24  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I've a long established Realmslore tidbit [or hint, rather] that suggests "Leira" might be an archaic term for the more modern "The [Divine] Liar" in, perhaps, High Thayvian or somesuch.

I assume "High Thayan" is a refined form of Thayan or Thayvian, the native language spoken in Thay? Perhaps a rarified form of the language used for formal address, government functions, and Red Magic?
A little of that, yes. And, also, it's reflective of some of the 4e changes made to Thay that I incorporated into my own Realms -- indicative that some of the Red Wizards that were now "living above it all," chose to refine, exclusively, their own arcane dialect in order to further divorce themselves from the rabble below. Kind of drawing on the attitudes on language amongst the High Netherese from the past, I suppose.

So there would be an associated Lower Thayvian as well, which is largely comprised of the original languages used among the various ethnic components of the peoples of Thay on the ground.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14014 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  08:05:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ulutiu didn't look 'human', not by a longshot. He looked more like a giant baby-penguin, near as I could tell from the description. Even acted like a penguin. And Ubtao - I have NEVER pictured him being anything remotely resembling a humanoid. {see other thread for more}




From P&P
Ulutiu appears as a stocky human male of indeterminate ancestry. His arms and legs are short and thick and his fingers resemble plump sausages. He has raven black hair and ice blue skin. His face is round with impossibly deep blue eyes, a flat nse, and tiny ears pressed flat against his head.

Not sounding like a penguin to me.

Then P&P tells filthy lies. There is a short story in one of the anthologies that IS the events of the whole incident regarding him, Annam, and Othea; I think its even titled some like 'The giants in Twilight', or some such. (Just checked - Twilight, in Realms of Infamy, by Troy Denning.) He was FURRY, and loved frolicking in the water (it sounds child-like, thy way its described), very much like a penguin... and he had FLIPPERS.

Don't believe those humanocentric lies in P&P. I saw the whole thing... sort of.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2017 08:07:57
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14014 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  08:09:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?



The image that people see from the surface of Toril is an illusion. It hides the fact that there are people living on the moon.

A lie embedded within a lie, I tell you.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30201 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  16:41:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So what I'm thinking of right now is that maybe the majority of Selūne is exactly as it appears from the ground... But there is a large region that matches the description from Realmspace, and it's in this area that the Leirans live.

The Leirans used to live elsewhere, perhaps in the Realms proper, perhaps somewhere else in Realmspace. Maybe they were even beyond Realmspace, an attempt by Leira to become a multispheric power. Wherever they were, things went south, in a major way. The Leirans had to flee, right flipping NOW, or face certain annihilation. Their most powerful casters got together and cast a massive spell that was meant to transport their entire home to a safe location.

Maybe they goofed, or maybe the spell was effected by a still-extant echo of the first Sundering -- but the end result was that they found themselves on Selūne.

So they had a new home and were safe... But seeing Toril hanging in the sky over their heads was rather unnerving, as was the terrain beyond their translocated sanctuary. And of course, there remained the fear -- the terror, even -- that the enemy (enemies) they fled from would find them. Assuming that Toril was their former homeland, and wanting to remain hidden from it, they immediately popped up the big illusion over their sanctuary, and hunkered down.

It's been generations, but that collective fear of the enemy has been passed down. The Leirans don't truly know whether or not they originated on Toril; they've lost that lore. Seeing it hanging in their sky, however, and knowing they fled from somewhere, has convinced them that Toril is their ancient homeland.

The big illusion described in Realmspace? It's not wrong, but not quite right -- the lakes and cities and other hospitable features are the illusion. If someone gets close enough to see the surface, the Leirans want to appear stronger and more populous than they really are, to discourage any invasion attempts. If someone isn't close enough, they see things as they really are -- also to discourage invasion. (Who'd be interested in lifeless rock?)

What was seen on Toril, during the Spellplague, was a temporary warping of the illusion. For a brief time, as magic was in flux, the illusion malfunctioned, showing the illusory civilization to Toril. As magic stabilized, the illusion faded back to its normal strength and operations.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5800 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  16:42:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol...so the moon is a lie? Or rather, the entity (Selune) is a lie?



The image that people see from the surface of Toril is an illusion. It hides the fact that there are people living on the moon.

A lie embedded within a lie, I tell you.



Possibility, but I find it more useful at this moment to keep this true. Returning to the quote from the 4e FR player's guide.

"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selūne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selūne."

There appears to be a moon in phase with Toril and a moon in phase with Abeir. Now, granted they're supposed to be the SAME moon.... but then so were Abeir and Toril before the split. Now, the question becomes... were they twinned as well? Did the two look different after this "twinning"? Did Leira place this illusion to cover up the fact that the moon looked different long ago and to cover up the moon that had been displaced to Abeir? When the spellplague happened, did the people on the moon go to Abeir? What happened to their spelljammers?


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  04:29:29  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still thinking on ideas about the overall cosmology and how the Dawn War might play a part, I went back and had a look at core 4e's World Axis cosmology. The term "World Axis" itself just refers to the two "fundamental planes" of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos meeting at the axis point of the Prime Material. So that in itself is nothing new - the other editions seem to agree that the two only connect through the Prime Material. I haven't reread all the 4e stuff, though I have read it in the past, so experts please correct me if I slide off too much.

Core 4e
Core 4e talks about how before the Dawn War, the gods were busying themselves creating the "Lattice of Heaven" - an all-powerful astral connection that would link all their dominions together. Meanwhile, the primordials were messing with the substance of the Elemental Chaos, ending up creating the core world of 4e (and possibly the Prime Material - its unclear). The gods then coveted the world and took it for themselves, under the pretext that the primordials would continually destroy and remake the worlds forever, preventing life from flourishing there. This angered the primordials, and they invaded the Astral Sea, setting off the Dawn War. During that conflict, the Lattice of Heaven shattered, and the gods' dominions blew apart across the Astral Sea. The primordials ultimately lost and were for the most part imprisoned within the Elemental Chaos.

I don't know about y'all, but the Lattice of Heaven seems like it was a proto-Great Wheel.

For my "assimilation theory", this can be worked in as an early attempt by the gods to combine their realms, so that unification can be that little bit closer. The primordials (gods of substance/matter in this theory) would have been concerned by the Lattice, as its formation elevated the gods' (gods of ideas) power above their own. Only millenia after the gods of ideas won the Dawn War were they finally able to "finish" the construct - the network of portals that creates what mortals call the "Great Wheel". Or perhaps the process is still undergoing, and further connections will continue to be built over time. The underlying aim will be that with more connections, unification (or conflict then unification) will ultimately result, bringing the universe a little closer to total assimilation.

In the Realms
Coming back to the effect of the Dawn War on Toril, the 4e FRCG sarrukh and Abeiran dragonborn myths tell of Ao creating what we can assume to be Abeir-Toril's crystal sphere from the Prime Material. Within the sphere, several worlds existed, coveted by beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (later called primordials by sages). At this point, Selune and Shar, birthed of the Astral Sea, moved to defend the virgin worlds against the primordials. Other gods were created from the residue of these battles, or were summoned from other planes to fight against the primordials.

It seems to me that this fits in rather well with the core 4e Dawn War arc. The primordials are busy creating and recreating in the Prime Material, and then the gods come along and take it for themselves. As a part of that conflict local to FR, it is Ao who comes along, binds a part of the Prime Material into a crystal sphere, and then allows Selune and Shar into it (or they are created by him in it out of the stuff of the Astral Sea) - setting off a local conflict of the no doubt much-wider Dawn War already raging. The conflict kept on going on Toril throughout the "Shadow Epoch", until the primordial known as Ubtao the Deceiver turned the tide in the favor of the "elder gods". The remaining primordials are slain, imprisoned, or driven away.

I imagine it is at the start of the Dawn War that the Netherese legend of the creation of Chauntea takes place. When Selune and Shar enter/are born into the sphere, they give life to the havoc-ridden creations the primordials have made by fashioning them into the planets we know today, birthing Chauntea. Their interference is part of the wider conflict between primordials and gods that becomes the Dawn War, but the creation of Chauntea also triggers the War of Light and Darkness, pitting Selune and Shar against each other, birthing many other gods along the way. As an alternative (which I think I prefer on reflection), although the birth of Chauntea occurs at the start/prior to the Dawn War, the War of Light and Darkness may not occur until after it ends, coinciding nicely with bringing warmth to Toril at the end of the ice age.

It is not until millennia later (c. -31,000 DR) that the batrachi manage to release several primordials. At this time, the primordial Asgorath is said to be intent on destroying Toril, and hurls the ice moon at it. In response, Ao sunders Abeir from Toril and grants the imprisoned primordials dominion over Abeir, the gods over Toril.

Putting it together
WIth the Lattice of Heaven shattered, perhaps different gods came up with their own plans to reforge it, or remake it in a way more favourable to them. Many gods found the design known to mortals as the Great Wheel a desirable compromise, spreading faith between 17 planes of existence. Ao did not find this favourable to him however, not wishing the worship of his sphere to be distributed elsewhere. Ao thus created the World Tree for his own crystal sphere - potentially a more favourable design to funnel more faith-power directly to him, potentially so that he is powerful enough to eventually assimilate all else in conflicts to come. The deities active on Toril agree to this because of the sheer potential of the sphere. Admittedly this retcons the World Tree model back to starting at the end of the Dawn War, which won't suit anyone - but I get the impression 3e retconned the World Tree to "how it has always been" anyway. The Great Wheel being in FR in 1e/2e can be explained by saying that's how planar travellers experienced it beyond Tori's crystal sphere.

It's also important to note that there are five main groups of "primordials" we need to consider:
1. The primordials who sat out the entire plane-spanning Dawn War (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Istishia)
2. The primordials who lost the plane-spanning Dawn War outside Ao's crystal sphere, or were driven away from Toril in the local Dawn War
3. The primordial that sided with the gods during the local Dawn War (Ubtao)
4. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but were released by the batrachi and ultimately granted dominion over Abeir (eg. Asgorath?)
5. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but weren't released by the batrachi (eg. Maegera?)
Categories 4 and 5 might have been lumped together by Ao and given dominion over Abeir, but I get the impression they weren't, as we have examples of "imprisoned" primordials on Toril such as Maegera.

Summarizing
I've lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to write a combined summary of the above events, combining core-4e with FR.
1. The gods are concentrating on building the Lattice of Heaven while the primordials mess about with matter, creating and recreating worlds.
2. The gods move in on the worlds. Ao creates his own crystal sphere, containing some of this matter the primordials are messing with.
3. The primordials begin to resent the gods as they mess with their creations. Shar and Selune are born into Ao's crystal sphere, and reforge the worlds as they see fit, birthing Chauntea. Similar things happen in other newly created crystal spheres.
4. The primordials react by going to war with the gods across the planes, beginning the Dawn War (pushed over the edge by Tharizdun in the guise of the Elemental Eye - thanks Zeromaru X). On Toril, the primordials initially battle Shar and Selune, but soon other gods are summoned or created out of deific battles (these deific battles could be god vs primordial, or could be part of the War of Light and Darkness, mentioned below). This time on Toril is known as the "Blue Age".
5. The Lattice of Heaven is shattered by the primordials (in the Dawn War's earliest phase - thanks Zeromaru X).
6. The primordial known as the Night Serpent cloaks Toril in an ice age as the Dawn War continues on. This era on Toril is known as the "Shadow Epoch". Gods and primordials continue to fight. The "elder gods" on Toril at this time are led by Ouroboros the World Serpent.
7. The Dawn War begins to wind down in favour of the gods across the planes.
8. Ubtao the Deceiver betrays the primordials in favour of the gods, ending the conflict on Toril. The primordials on Toril are slain, imprisoned, or driven away.
9. The Dawn War ends across the planes. My guess is that the new order results in what mortals call the Great Wheel.
9. Shar and Selune clash over bringing warmth to Toril/Chauntea, beginning the War of Light and Darkness. This event may have occurred much earlier during the Dawn War, but I thought this timing was appropriate because the bringing of warmth coincides with the end of Toril's ice age.
10. During the conflict between the gods, the creator races are born, the ice recedes, and the Days of Thunder and recorded history begins.
11. Assumedly sometime early in the Days of Thunder, Mystryl is born and balances out the War of Light and Darkness, establishing the uneasy truce/cold war that continues to this day.
12. During the Days of Thunder (c. -31,000 DR), the batrachi manage to release several primordials. Asgorath attempts to destroy Toril because she can't claim it for herself, and Ao is forced to sunder Abeir and Toril. The primordials freed by the batrachi are sent to Abeir, the gods left dominion over Toril.
13. Soon after, the Time of Dragons and the Time of Giants begin, and history continues to roll on...

This summary is cobbled together from canon myths in the 3e FRCS and the 4e FRCG, combined in with core-4e Dawn War events. The order of events may not be exact, it's my best guess - but all the above did happen at some point. I kind of got lost in my thoughts writing all this, I think it needs a bit more time to percolate in my head before I write anything more.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 28 Feb 2017 07:45:12
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  06:17:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a minor correction, the Lattice of Heaven was one of the first things destroyed by the primordials in the first action of the Dawn War: the enraged primordials went to the Astral Sea, stole the Rune of Stone Eternal (the mystical glyph used to power the Lattice), and killed a few gods. This is the action that spur the gods to retaliate against the primordials. Before that, the gods did not care about them.

Also, according to Demonomicon, the battle against Tharizdun, and later Miska the Wolf-Spider and the Queen of Chaos (that are considered demonic primordials in core 4e) was also part of the Dawn War. It seems it was Tharizdun the one who encouraged the primordials to attack the Astral Sea and destroy the Lattice of Heaven, as he believed that, if he led the primordials to victory against the meddlesome gods, the primordials would have followed him against the obyriths and other Demon Lords of the Abyss in their struggle to get control over the Shard of Pure Evil (a seed of evil and chaos that was what remained of an older universe and was corrupted by Far Realm stuff. According to 4e Monster Manual, it was this Shard of Evil what Tharizdun used to create the Abyss. Also, the ruby on Asmodeus's Ruby Rod was a small bit of the Shard of Pure Evil).

Also, in 4e there was a world were the gods lost the Dawn War: Athas. That was the explanation of "why we can't play characters such as clerics and paladins in Dark Sun".

The rest of that seems ok.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Feb 2017 16:19:44
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  07:42:27  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks! I have to admit I'd never heard of the Rune of Stone Eternal - is the only mention to it in Dragon 394? That's all I can find on it. That article says the Rune was stolen from the lattice in the Dawn War's "earliest phase", so I think it makes sense to leave it in position 5 in the summary, with the addendum that it occurs very early in the conflict.

I was unaware of the Athas stuff, that's interesting, and helps to explain a few things. That works really well for the idea of the Dawn War occurring in different ways across the multiverse.

The Tharizdun stuff I had read, and to quote the Demonomicon for others' interest:
quote:
Tharizdun strove to marshal the power of the Elemental Chaos and its denizens in his bid for universal domination. The primordials, already angered with the gods' meddling in the affairs of the world, were easily swayed by Tharizdun's call to arms. They believed that if the mad god could reclaim the shard of evil now buried in the heart of the Abyss, it would ensure their triumph over the gods of the Astral Sea. Calling himself the Elder Elemental Eye, Tharizdun attracted powerful followers, only a few of which knew him as the god he was.

So I imagine the Dawn War was already brewing (gods' meddling in the primordials' affairs), and Tharizdun tipped it over the edge for his own purposes.

The above summary post has been edited to add in those bits, thanks!

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 28 Feb 2017 07:45:40
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14014 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  08:13:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the 'Dawn war' IS the 'War of Light & Darkness' - the former name is more generic/universal (core) and the second FR-specific. Its way too late here for me to even try to begin to spin some of this into anything cohesive, but basically, you have an incident (the 'shattering' of the Lattice of Heaven) that sparked the first conflict, and like any good 'World War' (except this one spanned all of reality... and beyond), lots and lots of other powers got pulled into it over time, and the sides kept shifting, with the original war being fought between Law and Chaos (if you recall, Asmodeus was one of the 'good guys' back then), and then out of that other juxtapositions emerged, like 'God' and 'Evil' (some gods were willing to do anything to win, some weren't), and even along a 'Light' & 'Darkness' axis (perhaps the two sisters took different sides in the war?).

So you have an incident, and then a 'small war', which blew-up into a Great War (the 'Dawn War'), which then broke-apart into dozens - if not hundreds - of celestial conflagrations (cosmic brush-fires?), some of which still rage until this day (like the Blood War), and there are 'ancient animosities' between certain elder Powers, and even between entire pantheons, all stemming from way back then. At the end of the war, 'Death' has come into being because the 'Dawn Titan' (Ymir) has been killed, and the prime Material (that first world) has been shattered. Two of the most powerful lawful Supernals - Ahriman and Jazirian - use their combined power to create a vast, majestic artifact - the Great Wheel - in order to recollect all the lost energies of the shattered Realm. The other supernals did what they could, scooping up the largest pieces and creating whole worlds from them, and systems of worlds, and enclosing them in protective, Crystal Spheres.

So the heavens were pulled down, and the Prime Material (Midgard) was shattered, but they were built anew. Tharizdun was chained, along with some of his associates. The two great 'world serpents' are now bound together in their creation, but so vast is their power that they are able to create smaller, weaker versions of themselves (avatars of an overpower are like Gods themselves). Of course, this eventually leads to a slow decay of the mind itself, which is why the Great Ouroboros - the World Serpent(s) are stuck in a deep slumber, while dozens of 'pale reflections' of their psyche continue to degenerate and fall into their own comas. It is Ubtao's job to guard the Great wheel - the mighty Ouroboros - and keep anyone from rousing it, thus possibly destroying the second incarnation of the multiverse.

Toril is just one world, and Realmspace but one system, but Abeir was created out of the one world to house the Celestial Titans (Primordials) who rebelled against the heavens. Many Spheres contain one, maybe two trapped elemental evils, but Realmspace was home to many, because the War of Light & Darkness took place within, and thus, a separation was needed that was unnecessary on most worlds. Ao, the supernal who created Realmspace, is still gathering the stray bits and pieces form that war (as are others), and slowly pasting them back into the worlds of the Crystal Spheres, in hopes that one day the Great Wheel will have finally collected the last of the lost power of God, and all these collected bits of the first world can be reassembled into the True World once again.

It doesn't really matter what side wins or loses, because in the end, mortals all dwell in the charred husk of the former universe's glory, like maggots feeding on a dismembered corpse, and when the universe is formed anew (or utterly destroyed forever, as Tharizdun wants), all of this will cease to exist. The Grey Lords - the gods of neutrality - may be the only allies mortals have; they strive to maintain 'the balance' so that no side may ever win, or lose.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2017 08:22:46
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  08:46:24  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea of the War of Light & Darkness being part of the wider Dawn War, but I'd probably still have them as concurrent at best to cut down on complexities. If they're the same, either Selune or Shar should have fought on the side of the primordials. This could almost make sense for Shar, as one of the reasons she attacks Selune in the legends if because Selune (a god) interferes with the status quo by creating a sun from what the primordials had already created. But, the legends in the 4e FRCG state that both of the twin goddesses fought against the primordials.

So, although Shar could have been battling Selune and the primordials at the same time, it makes more sense to me for them to attack each other after the primordials are dealt with. However, it's all myth anyway, so it's all conjecture. It's tempting to have both conflicts going on at once, 'coz Shar be cray-cray.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  16:25:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can picture Shar having changing side to the primordials band at least once. There were gods who did this at some point of the wider war. According to Secrets of the Astral Plane, Asmodeus worked with the two sides (he was preparing his eventual rise to godhood regardless of what side won).

Even if Shar did never fought in the side of the primordials, there were conflicts between gods that sparked amid the Dawn War. Asmodeus' War of Betrayal (were he killed and absorbed the 4e-core god who created mankind) or the Kinstrife War (Lolth's betrayal to the Seldarine), all happened while the Dawn War was raging on.


EDIT: Here is my little summary of the Dawn War. It may differ from Kanzen's one in some points, and includes some non-FR stuff, such as core 4e and core 3e. All of this from an FR perspective, of course.

Thanks to Demonomicon, 4e PHB 3, and an article in Dragon 417, that somehow connects core 3e and core 4e myths, all of this makes sense.


-The multiverse is created. The concepts (chaos, evil, good, law, neutrality) began to fight among themselves. They create their own agents, such as the obyriths, to fight in this war. (From Fiendish Code, Demonomicon and Dragon 417)

-Sigil is created by the "proto-entities" that predate gods and primordials. (4e DMG 2)

-A "gate" separates reality from the Far Realm. A being that was neither a god nor a primordial (but kin to both) is tasked with watching this "Living Gate" so would never be opened. (4e PHB 3)

-The "Fundamental Planes" (Outer Planes and Inner Planes) are created. Dragon myths have that it was Io/Asgorath the one who created them, or at least give them "the potential" to be created (from 4e DMG and Monster Mythology).

-Primordials came out from the Elemental Chaos/Inner Planes, and began to mess with matter in the "middle point" between the planes (the Material Plane), creating and recreating worlds. (4e DMG)

-An entity known as Atropus kills itself, giving the potential for other gods to be born in the Outer Planes. The gods began to thinker with astral stuff, creating the astral planes and the Lattice of Heaven (Elder Evils and Secrets of the Astra Sea; 4e Open Grave has that Atropus was a "primordial").

Those two events may have happened at the same time.

-The individual universes/crystal spheres are created in the Material Plane, containing the matter the primordials are messing with. As Ao craft his crystal sphere, Selune and Shar are born as a consequence. (3e FRCS and 4e FRCG)

-In another crystal sphere, Tharizdun and other two gods (Ioun and Pelor, for the record) peek beyond the "Living Gate" and are perturbed by what they had seen. Tharizdun is utterly corrupted. (4e PHB 3)

-The gods move in on the worlds crafted by the primordials and reforge them as they see fit. Shar and Selune move into Ao's crystal sphere, birthing Chauntea. The primordials begin to resent the gods as they mess with their creations. (4e DMG, 3e FRCS, 4e FRCG)

-The obyriths are dying (maybe as a consequence of the concepts' war). Pazuzu craft the Shard of Pure Evil as a way to preserve the obyriths, and sent it to the crystal spheres by using the Far Realm as a conduit between the planes (Demonomicon, Abyssal Plague novels)

-Tharizdun, seeking more power, kills the timeless guardian of the Living Gate, destroys the Gate and founds the Shard of Pure Evil. He took it, becomes mad and creates the Abyss. The surviving obyriths and Tharizdun fight over control of the new realm. Some primordials are corrupted into the first Demon Lords. (4e MM, Demonomicon, 4e PHB 3, Abyssal Plague novels)

-Beings from the Far Realm came to the crystal spheres through the shattered Living Gate. The Mind Flayers found their ancient empire, while Piscaethces creates the aboleths (accidentally, perhaps). Among them is the Eldest, one of the first aboleths, if not the first. (4e PHB 3, Lords of Madness, The Abolethic Sovereignity novels).

-The first mortals appear across the crystal spheres, either as creations of the gods or slaves of the aboleths. Precisely who created what race is unclear, but the gods found that mortal faith increased their power. (Lords of Madness, Monster Mythology, 4e DMG/MM I, etc.)

-Chauntea begs for a light source to sustain the nascent life in Realmspace. Selune creates the "first" sun. Shar is enraged. (3e FRCS)

Potentially the War of Light and Darkness began at this point, but I see that unlikely. However, Shar must have resented Selune since this time.

-Tharizdun, under the guise of the "Elder Elemental Eye", marshals the primordials and other denizens of the Elemental Chaos/Inner Planes against the gods across the multiverse. Many gods die and the Lattice of Heaven is destroyed. (Demonomicon, Secret of the Astral Sea, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos)

-On Realmspace, the primordials initially battle Shar and Selune, but others gods came to help them, either created out of "deific battles" or summoned from other universes. This time on Toril is known as the "Blue Age". (4e FRCG, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos)

-The gods eventually discover Tharizdun's treachery, band together, and defeat him. He is sealed in the universe destroyed by the alternate Tharizdun. (Demonomicon, Dragon 373, Abyssal plague novels)

-A parallel version of Tharizdun (created by the Shard of Pure Evil) is able to defeat the gods that opposed him, destroys one universe and eventually transcends divinity, "becoming something beyond a god". This version of Tharizdun disappears from the known multiverse. The destroyed universe eventually spans the sharn (yeah, those that supposedly were created by elves) and the "Progenitor" (the malevolent consciousness of the Abyss of that universe). (Dragon 373, 391, and the Abyssal Plague novels)

My personal theory is that this incarnation of Tharizdun is the gygaxian one.

-Miska the Wolf-Spider, Tharizdun's second in command, takes command of the primordial armies. (Demonomicon)

-Nehuhsta, a primordial artificer, creates the fortress of Glaur in the planet of Abeir-Toril, to serve as "a central front in the Dawn War". (Dragon 375, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos)

This implies that Realmspace was an important front in the multiversal Dawn War.

-Bane (4e core) is able to organize a divine army and, after the destruction of many worlds, kills the first primordial in the war (Tabrach-Ti, the Queen of Bronze). The gods began to retaliate at last. (Dragon 372)

-With the help of the Queen of Chaos, Miska the Wolf-Spider destroys Obox-Ob and becames the Prince of Demons. The forces of the Elemental Chaos and the Abyss combine, and the gods began to lose again. (Demonomicon)

-Many other divine conflicts also happen at this point. Relevant to the Realmspace is the Kinstrife War, also known as Lolth's betrayal. (Secrets of the Astral)

-The gods of the universe/crystal sphere of Athas are either destroyed or driven away by the primordials. The war in that front is lost. (4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos)

-The primordial known as the Night Serpent cloaks Toril in an ice age. This era on Toril is known as the "Shadow Epoch". Gods and primordials continue to fight. The "elder gods" on Toril at this time are led by Ouroboros the World Serpent. (4e FRCG)

-Io/Asgorath is "killed" by Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. Bahamut and Tiamat are born, avenge their "father", and began to help the other gods in the war. (4e MM I, SCAG)

-The Battle of Pesh: The Wind Dukes of Aqaa forge the "Rod of Law" with the help of a servant of Moradin, and then attack Miska the Wolf-Spider with the help of some renegade primordials, such as Bristia Pel and Ubtao the Deceiver. With the banishment of Miska to a prison plane, the Dawn War turns in favor of the gods. The Queen of Chaos is defeated and enters in a comatose state. (Demonomicon, 4e FRCG, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos)

-The primordials are defeated, and either slain, imprisoned, or driven away. (4e DMG, 4e FRCG, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos)

-A "new" sun is crafted/the "old" sun is released in Realmspace. This is possibly a turning point in the War of Light and Darkness. Shar and Selune clash, Mystryl is born and balances out the War of Light and Darkness, establishing the uneasy truce/cold war that continues to this day. (3e FRCS, 4e FRCG)

-The ice recedes, and the Days of Thunder and recorded history begins. (4e FRCG)

-During the Days of Thunder (c. -31,000 DR), the batrachi manage to release several primordials during their war against the titans. Asgorath (now in the primordials side) attempts to destroy Abeir-Toril because she can't claim it for herself, and Ao is forced to sunder the planet into two different worlds: Abeir and Toril. (4e FRCG, GhotR)

-The surviving primordials freed by the batrachi are sent to Abeir, the gods left dominion over Toril (the original world). The original aboleth kingdom of Abeir-Toril is also sent to Abeir. (4e FRCG, Abolethic Sovereignity novels)

-The Time of Dragons and the Time of Giants begin in Toril. (GhotR)

-The War of Fang and Talon happens in Abeir, and the surviving primordials are either killed or flee. The long Rule of Dragons began in Abeir. (Dragon 373)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Feb 2017 21:42:15
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14014 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  20:52:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I am going to borrow heavily from all your stuff for the eventual conversion Netbook, Zeromaru X. In fact, more like 'just twek yours', and then sap both our names on it. I'm starting to think its going to go so far off-canon - and also uses lore not considered 'a part of' the DM's Guild - that it will have to just be its own thing. maybe host it here (or at TEGG, Ed-willing - although I don't think he'd want to host NV lore, for legal purposes) and go on various sites (like Enworld, The piazza, etc) and post a link to it. That would give FR (and Candlekeep, if hosted here) a nice 'boost'. But I'll try the DM's Guild first - you never know.

I think Atropus would have had to be something akin to a 'greater primordial' - maybe even a Supernal (that tier you called 'the concepts'/proto-gods). Reading what you wrote there - based on the 3e/4e/5e canon - I almost feel like it was all 'running parallel' to a lot of what I was theorizing at the time.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I like the idea of the War of Light & Darkness being part of the wider Dawn War, but I'd probably still have them as concurrent at best to cut down on complexities. If they're the same, either Selune or Shar should have fought on the side of the primordials. This could almost make sense for Shar, as one of the reasons she attacks Selune in the legends if because Selune (a god) interferes with the status quo by creating a sun from what the primordials had already created. But, the legends in the 4e FRCG state that both of the twin goddesses fought against the primordials.
This doesn't conflict - as I said above, 'the sides' changed many times, and even the axis (aw vs. Chaos) changed over time. Think in terms of WW's here on Earth - there were different 'theaters' (fronts) where the war was taking place, and sometimes forces that hated each other in one theater were forced to work together in another (In WW2, Patton wanted to go into Russia REAL BAD, and the Nazi soldiers he captured were willing to join him in that fight).
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

So, although Shar could have been battling Selune and the primordials at the same time, it makes more sense to me for them to attack each other after the primordials are dealt with. However, it's all myth anyway, so it's all conjecture. It's tempting to have both conflicts going on at once, 'coz Shar be cray-cray.
Yes, she is CRAZY - perhaps crazier than any of else imagined.

What if Selūne DIED in the Dawn War? What if that drove Shar insane, and now she dresses up the dead moon and sits there rocking and talking to her 'sister' (who she answers for as well.. because she now has a split personality.) Shar as 'Norman Bates'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2017 20:57:52
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5800 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  21:26:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Still thinking on ideas about the overall cosmology and how the Dawn War might play a part, I went back and had a look at core 4e's World Axis cosmology. The term "World Axis" itself just refers to the two "fundamental planes" of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos meeting at the axis point of the Prime Material. So that in itself is nothing new - the other editions seem to agree that the two only connect through the Prime Material. I haven't reread all the 4e stuff, though I have read it in the past, so experts please correct me if I slide off too much.

Core 4e
Core 4e talks about how before the Dawn War, the gods were busying themselves creating the "Lattice of Heaven" - an all-powerful astral connection that would link all their dominions together. Meanwhile, the primordials were messing with the substance of the Elemental Chaos, ending up creating the core world of 4e (and possibly the Prime Material - its unclear). The gods then coveted the world and took it for themselves, under the pretext that the primordials would continually destroy and remake the worlds forever, preventing life from flourishing there. This angered the primordials, and they invaded the Astral Sea, setting off the Dawn War. During that conflict, the Lattice of Heaven shattered, and the gods' dominions blew apart across the Astral Sea. The primordials ultimately lost and were for the most part imprisoned within the Elemental Chaos.

I don't know about y'all, but the Lattice of Heaven seems like it was a proto-Great Wheel.

For my "assimilation theory", this can be worked in as an early attempt by the gods to combine their realms, so that unification can be that little bit closer. The primordials (gods of substance/matter in this theory) would have been concerned by the Lattice, as its formation elevated the gods' (gods of ideas) power above their own. Only millenia after the gods of ideas won the Dawn War were they finally able to "finish" the construct - the network of portals that creates what mortals call the "Great Wheel". Or perhaps the process is still undergoing, and further connections will continue to be built over time. The underlying aim will be that with more connections, unification (or conflict then unification) will ultimately result, bringing the universe a little closer to total assimilation.

In the Realms
Coming back to the effect of the Dawn War on Toril, the 4e FRCG sarrukh and Abeiran dragonborn myths tell of Ao creating what we can assume to be Abeir-Toril's crystal sphere from the Prime Material. Within the sphere, several worlds existed, coveted by beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (later called primordials by sages). At this point, Selune and Shar, birthed of the Astral Sea, moved to defend the virgin worlds against the primordials. Other gods were created from the residue of these battles, or were summoned from other planes to fight against the primordials.

It seems to me that this fits in rather well with the core 4e Dawn War arc. The primordials are busy creating and recreating in the Prime Material, and then the gods come along and take it for themselves. As a part of that conflict local to FR, it is Ao who comes along, binds a part of the Prime Material into a crystal sphere, and then allows Selune and Shar into it (or they are created by him in it out of the stuff of the Astral Sea) - setting off a local conflict of the no doubt much-wider Dawn War already raging. The conflict kept on going on Toril throughout the "Shadow Epoch", until the primordial known as Ubtao the Deceiver turned the tide in the favor of the "elder gods". The remaining primordials are slain, imprisoned, or driven away.

I imagine it is at the start of the Dawn War that the Netherese legend of the creation of Chauntea takes place. When Selune and Shar enter/are born into the sphere, they give life to the havoc-ridden creations the primordials have made by fashioning them into the planets we know today, birthing Chauntea. Their interference is part of the wider conflict between primordials and gods that becomes the Dawn War, but the creation of Chauntea also triggers the War of Light and Darkness, pitting Selune and Shar against each other, birthing many other gods along the way. As an alternative (which I think I prefer on reflection), although the birth of Chauntea occurs at the start/prior to the Dawn War, the War of Light and Darkness may not occur until after it ends, coinciding nicely with bringing warmth to Toril at the end of the ice age.

It is not until millennia later (c. -31,000 DR) that the batrachi manage to release several primordials. At this time, the primordial Asgorath is said to be intent on destroying Toril, and hurls the ice moon at it. In response, Ao sunders Abeir from Toril and grants the imprisoned primordials dominion over Abeir, the gods over Toril.

Putting it together
WIth the Lattice of Heaven shattered, perhaps different gods came up with their own plans to reforge it, or remake it in a way more favourable to them. Many gods found the design known to mortals as the Great Wheel a desirable compromise, spreading faith between 17 planes of existence. Ao did not find this favourable to him however, not wishing the worship of his sphere to be distributed elsewhere. Ao thus created the World Tree for his own crystal sphere - potentially a more favourable design to funnel more faith-power directly to him, potentially so that he is powerful enough to eventually assimilate all else in conflicts to come. The deities active on Toril agree to this because of the sheer potential of the sphere. Admittedly this retcons the World Tree model back to starting at the end of the Dawn War, which won't suit anyone - but I get the impression 3e retconned the World Tree to "how it has always been" anyway. The Great Wheel being in FR in 1e/2e can be explained by saying that's how planar travellers experienced it beyond Tori's crystal sphere.

It's also important to note that there are five main groups of "primordials" we need to consider:
1. The primordials who sat out the entire plane-spanning Dawn War (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Istishia)
2. The primordials who lost the plane-spanning Dawn War outside Ao's crystal sphere, or were driven away from Toril in the local Dawn War
3. The primordial that sided with the gods during the local Dawn War (Ubtao)
4. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but were released by the batrachi and ultimately granted dominion over Abeir (eg. Asgorath?)
5. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but weren't released by the batrachi (eg. Maegera?)
Categories 4 and 5 might have been lumped together by Ao and given dominion over Abeir, but I get the impression they weren't, as we have examples of "imprisoned" primordials on Toril such as Maegera.

Summarizing
I've lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to write a combined summary of the above events, combining core-4e with FR.
1. The gods are concentrating on building the Lattice of Heaven while the primordials mess about with matter, creating and recreating worlds.
2. The gods move in on the worlds. Ao creates his own crystal sphere, containing some of this matter the primordials are messing with.
3. The primordials begin to resent the gods as they mess with their creations. Shar and Selune are born into Ao's crystal sphere, and reforge the worlds as they see fit, birthing Chauntea. Similar things happen in other newly created crystal spheres.
4. The primordials react by going to war with the gods across the planes, beginning the Dawn War (pushed over the edge by Tharizdun in the guise of the Elemental Eye - thanks Zeromaru X). On Toril, the primordials initially battle Shar and Selune, but soon other gods are summoned or created out of deific battles (these deific battles could be god vs primordial, or could be part of the War of Light and Darkness, mentioned below). This time on Toril is known as the "Blue Age".
5. The Lattice of Heaven is shattered by the primordials (in the Dawn War's earliest phase - thanks Zeromaru X).
6. The primordial known as the Night Serpent cloaks Toril in an ice age as the Dawn War continues on. This era on Toril is known as the "Shadow Epoch". Gods and primordials continue to fight. The "elder gods" on Toril at this time are led by Ouroboros the World Serpent.
7. The Dawn War begins to wind down in favour of the gods across the planes.
8. Ubtao the Deceiver betrays the primordials in favour of the gods, ending the conflict on Toril. The primordials on Toril are slain, imprisoned, or driven away.
9. The Dawn War ends across the planes. My guess is that the new order results in what mortals call the Great Wheel.
9. Shar and Selune clash over bringing warmth to Toril/Chauntea, beginning the War of Light and Darkness. This event may have occurred much earlier during the Dawn War, but I thought this timing was appropriate because the bringing of warmth coincides with the end of Toril's ice age.
10. During the conflict between the gods, the creator races are born, the ice recedes, and the Days of Thunder and recorded history begins.
11. Assumedly sometime early in the Days of Thunder, Mystryl is born and balances out the War of Light and Darkness, establishing the uneasy truce/cold war that continues to this day.
12. During the Days of Thunder (c. -31,000 DR), the batrachi manage to release several primordials. Asgorath attempts to destroy Toril because she can't claim it for herself, and Ao is forced to sunder Abeir and Toril. The primordials freed by the batrachi are sent to Abeir, the gods left dominion over Toril.
13. Soon after, the Time of Dragons and the Time of Giants begin, and history continues to roll on...

This summary is cobbled together from canon myths in the 3e FRCS and the 4e FRCG, combined in with core-4e Dawn War events. The order of events may not be exact, it's my best guess - but all the above did happen at some point. I kind of got lost in my thoughts writing all this, I think it needs a bit more time to percolate in my head before I write anything more.



Very similar to my thoughts in the other thread except one thing in a different order. I do notice you used the same number for this

The primordials react by going to war with the gods across the planes, beginning the Dawn War

Shar and Selune clash over bringing warmth to Toril/Chauntea, beginning the War of Light and Darkness. This event may have occurred much earlier during the Dawn War, but I thought this timing was appropriate because the bringing of warmth coincides with the end of Toril's ice age.


I'd say with a name like the Dawn War, the creation of the Sun had something to do with it. DURING the Dawn War, Shar was "snuffing out all light and life". So, at some point, I'd gather that the "Night Serpent" .... whether that's Shar, Dendar, or someone now gone... snuffed out the sun. Whether that was a big cloud that blocked the sun's light, an illusion, or an actual closing off of the portals to the elemental plane of fire that light the sun up (which inadvertently might have pissed off beings of Primordial Fire). That was the Shadow Epoch, and it was probably during the Dawn War. Eventually, somehow or other, the Sun relit, bringing light and warmth. Not sure what Ubtao did, but probably he tricked the "Night Serpent" somehow, and given that he waits at the Peak of Flames for the arrival of the "Night Serpent" I'd imagine that somehow he imprisoned Dendar?


On that concept though, just how many imprisoned Primordials did we have getting released after the ToT.

Kezef the Chaos Hound, imprisoned by Tyr, Gond, Mystra... freed by Cyric

Bazim-Gorag, the FireBringer, - he was free after the shadow epoch, because he was a leader of the batrachi... or was he one of the released primordials and he came to lead the batrachi?.... but got imprisoned by some wizard... freed again after the spellplague

Entropy/Pandorym - seemingly freed following the spellplague. Summoned from elsewhere by the Imaskari, SO MAY have been pulled over from Abeir or some other place. Its said in the lore on Pandorym that the gods attacked the Imaskari because they were afraid of what they might do with Pandorym/Entropy.

Atropus - this small moon like primordial was created from the "afterbirth of the gods" or possibly from the stillborn body of the last god that Ao created in the beginning of time. Atropus was destroying all life on the illithid controlled planet Glyth in Realmspace at the end of 3e.

any others?







Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  21:43:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What if Selūne DIED in the Dawn War? What if that drove Shar insane, and now she dresses up the dead moon and sits there rocking and talking to her 'sister' (who she answers for as well.. because she now has a split personality.) Shar as 'Norman Bates'.



That plot-twist would give the Dark Moon heresy a whole new meaning.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Bazim-Gorag, the FireBringer, - he was free after the shadow epoch, because he was a leader of the batrachi... or was he one of the released primordials and he came to lead the batrachi?.... but got imprisoned by some wizard... freed again after the spellplague


Afaik, Bazim-Gorag is treated as an "ascended" primoridial in 4e FRCG. I take that as he was not a proper primordial until after the Spellplague.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Feb 2017 21:47:29
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  22:00:51  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a fantastic list of all the 4e stuff ZeromaruX! So many memories of lore-reading from my 4e campaign. Nice work assembling all that.

One thing that has bugged me is the Io/Asgorath thing. Io is supposedly destroyed during the Dawn War, but Asgorath is one of the primordials involved with the batrachi event much later. Plus, Io is associated with some myths of dragonborn creation - but I guess that's only a problem if we suppose they were created on Abeir, if they were created before Abeir-Toril was sundered that would make reconciling the two easier. Perhaps there is a deeper meaning to why they have two names - perhaps twins, or one being the shadow of the other?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'd say with a name like the Dawn War, the creation of the Sun had something to do with it. DURING the Dawn War, Shar was "snuffing out all light and life". So, at some point, I'd gather that the "Night Serpent" .... whether that's Shar, Dendar, or someone now gone... snuffed out the sun. Whether that was a big cloud that blocked the sun's light, an illusion, or an actual closing off of the portals to the elemental plane of fire that light the sun up (which inadvertently might have pissed off beings of Primordial Fire). That was the Shadow Epoch, and it was probably during the Dawn War. Eventually, somehow or other, the Sun relit, bringing light and warmth.

I think an earlier time for the sun being lit is fair. We know there was life on Toril during the Blue Age, and it could be assumed that some sort of warmth would be needed for it. So perhaps Selune does ignite the sun back around the start of the Dawn War, which sends Shar into a rage which she mostly takes out on the primordials to start with. Then Dendar comes along, blocks out the sun, and Shar is mostly content with the situation. Then when the sun is uncovered again near the end of the Dawn War, Shar remembers what her sister did and attacks her, beginning the "deific battles" that spawned Mystryl and many other gods.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5800 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  22:00:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What if Selūne DIED in the Dawn War? What if that drove Shar insane, and now she dresses up the dead moon and sits there rocking and talking to her 'sister' (who she answers for as well.. because she now has a split personality.) Shar as 'Norman Bates'.



That plot-twist would give the Dark Moon heresy a whole new meaning.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Bazim-Gorag, the FireBringer, - he was free after the shadow epoch, because he was a leader of the batrachi... or was he one of the released primordials and he came to lead the batrachi?.... but got imprisoned by some wizard... freed again after the spellplague


Afaik, Bazim-Gorag is treated as an "ascended" primoridial in 4e FRCG. I take that as he was not a proper primordial until after the Spellplague.



Which begs the question... WTH is an ascended primordial? Hmm, that being said, just found out there was a 4e resource called Heroes of the Elemental Chaos that apparently has a list of all kinds of primordials.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  22:05:17  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Which begs the question... WTH is an ascended primordial? Hmm, that being said, just found out there was a 4e resource called Heroes of the Elemental Chaos that apparently has a list of all kinds of primordials.

It's actually an "ascended batrachi" that is considered a primordial, but if anything that makes it more complex. Works well with my "primordials=gods of substance/matter" idea though, because it implies mortals (eg. batrachi) can ascend to become gods OR primordials.

Edit:
If it makes the theory more palatable for people, could say that it's not "gods of ideas and gods of matter", but instead gods of the Astral Sea and gods of the Elemental Chaos. Same theory but defined a bit better I think. I stand by "primordial" being a relatively recent term - the 4e FRCG (p42) specifically states their original name has been lost to the ages.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 28 Feb 2017 22:44:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  22:46:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may be taking things too literal, Sleyvas - I think 'dawn' could just mean 'Dawn of Time', or 'Dawn of the Universe' (a physical universe, because before then you just had a bunch of self-aware 'concepts' floating around being bored with each other).

Although in my hombrew proto-cosmology, I have that intial 'moment' (for lack of a better word - before time itself existed, it may as well have been aeons) the universe (as we know it) officially began was when a burgeoning consciousness began to form in the chaotic soup of Creation ('the Maelstrom', the Ginnungagap, 'the primal soup', etc). Before this moment, other 'things' did exist - things that evolved naturally in this unregulated mess, like the Shadovari, and the aberrations. So there was a flicker of 'thought', and then the chaos swept back in. An unrecordable amount of time later (nanoseconds? billions of years? Does it matter?) it begins to form again... and is aware of its first attempt... but it to, is snuffed out as the chaos comes rushing back in, clouding its birthing awareness. Then a third attempt, and this time it is aware of both prior attempts, and pushes the darkness forcefully away from its struggling procreation {"Let there be Light!"). In this allegory, 'light' = 'consciousness', or 'cohesive thought'. The chaos - the roiling 'darkness' of oblivion - continues to try and push back in, reclaiming what is lost... and in that moment, Cthon is born. That which thrives on the chaos... that which lives in the darkness that is pure insanity. And it rages against its own creation, which it considers an abomination against the chaos. So 'the dawn' may have been that initial moment of brightness - of awareness. 'Illumination' means both to make brighter, and to learn/teach.

'The One', as that first awareness now considers itself, continues to push its new 'twin' further from the bright center of its being ("the bright center of the universe") - this is 'the big bang', and the universe continues to expand, devouring the infinite chaos (The Far Realms) beyond it. This problem taken care of (for now), it turns inward (it IS the universe itself - the sum total of creation is its mind and body, for there is no physicality... yet). The first thought that it has is that it is alone... and another is born from that thought. 'The Gaia', or 'lifeforce' as some know it. One is reason, and structure ('the divine masculine'), the other, the beauty of pure creation ('the divine feminine'). So enthralled is 'the One' with its new partner that it reaches out and touches her... and from that touch the demiurge is born. Then from these three (the Supernals) the other basic concepts of the universe are created - concepts that have a life of their own - the Eternals. Each is responsible for a different layer within the new 'structure' of the universe. Ymir becomes physicality, and the first firmament is born. Kronus is the concept/plane of time. Indra is 'the heavens', and begins to create the first Celestial Bureaucracy, for such is needed, because each new concept creates ideas of its own - ideas that have a life of their own. These are the first primordials - the Sidereals. These in-turn build upon what had gone before (the on-going creation of the universe), and create the lesser Ordials, or 'Prime Ordials' - all groups of this tier and above are actually called 'Ordials', with the lesser group going by 'Prime Ordials', because they were assigned to the Prime Material; it was their job to fabricate the first world - the Midgard - the physical place the others could take physical form, if they wished. The Prime Ordials then created the 'lesser builders' - those races that would become mortal (their children, at any rate - that first generation are all technically 'immortal'). The celestial giants (Titans) were created in those days, as were their minions, the dwarves (for 'fine work'), and their 'heavy equipment', the dragons. You could use the movie Time Bandits for inspiration for some of this (this was the 'Time of Legends').

The deities- sometimes known as 'immortals' - hadn't come into existence until after the Dawn War, when death came into the universe and the concept of mortality itself was created (all beings preexisting death are not affected by death - thats one of the most basic premises of the D&D universe - that which came before overrules that which came next).

And then 'God' (The One) held a contest, to see who could create the greatest 'race' to live in the new (First) World. The four main Sidereals each created their own - Grome (earth) created the fey, who would be forever linked to 'the land', Kakatal (fire) created the Sarrukh, hot-tempered and forever changing to their surroundings. Misha created the Aearee, who would glide effortlessly on his winds, and Strasha begat the Batrachi, as fluid as the seas they swim in. These four were place in the Abeir-Toril ("The Cradle of Life") on the True World, to be nurtured and grow. Other, lesser creations were placed amongst them, but this were the four 'first races' among many. Gaea approached the demiurge, and asked her child to try it's hand at creating is own race, but Demiurge did not have creativity itself - it inspired creativity in others. And so it sought inspiration from outside, looking everywhere for something it could use. Eventually it came upon Erebus, guarding the ever-expanding walls of the universe from the chaos without. Erebus whispered to the Demiurge that things beyond the wall had many unique ideas, if one were to only listen. Demiurge was intrigued, and desired to seek these things out. and so Erebus defied his charge and let Demiurge make contact with the consciousness waiting on the other side... and was instantly driven mad by its touch. A small sliver of the other's mind had been inserted into Demiurge. It then went back to the Abeir Toril, and created its race - a race composed of the other four elements combined, with just a touch of random madness. Mankind, 'the race of destiny'. The one race that could defy the universe itself, because its maker had been corrupted. The most adaptable race to be fashioned, it soon overtook the others, creating a vast empire for itself called 'Blackmoor' on that First World, enslaving others, and driving the rest before it. Some say the humans were the fifth 'great race' (Creators), but in truth they were destroyers.

'The One' was angered by all this, and felt the Demiurge had 'cheated' in its task, and also brought part of the roiling Chaos (madness) from outside the universe into his masterwork. He named him Shiva, the destroyer. Many mortals today know him as Thariz-dun ("Foolish one"). He was bound in a secure location (Sigil?) until such a time when 'its people' would redeem themselves (because prophesy says that humans can be the universe's undoing, or its salvation). Some still worship Shiva/Tharizdun in many forms - entropy is merely one of them. Its is the decay that is necessary for rebirth. Its is the 'great motivator' for creation itself.

But Shiva/Tharizdun had many beings on his side, most especially the Prime Ordials, who did not feel he cheated. These rose up against the decision of The One, and thus began the Dawn War, which lead to the destruction of that first world (something very much like the Norse model). No-one knows precisely when the first blow was struck, but it began with the tearing-down of that which was newly made, with spheres being torn asunder within the heavens, and the entirety of the arch of heaven being cast down. In the end, the Ymir - the physical word itself - was killed - and since all these beings are merely 'concepts in the mind of God' (the consciousness of the universe itself), a part of God itself had died, and it fell silent. The universe had 'gone quiet'. The survivors felt that only by repairing the damage can they bring back God, and so the Great Wheel was built, and the 'Great Work' begun.

And from his prison, Tharizdun reaches out with his mind, still corrupting others, and tries to tear the univers down further, not realizing this was the goal of the Other - the one who waits in shadows. The whisperer in darkness. The madness that exists just outside of the mind of God... Cthon. A being that loathes its own existence as much as it does everything else. And Tharizdun has his followers open portals to the (Far) Realms of Cthon, letting aberrations slip through. One such portal is the infamous White Plume Mountain.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2017 01:24:47
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  22:53:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I use This Website for some of the terms/names I use. I like it a lot. Using that, I built the very complex model of cosmology I have today.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2017 22:55:05
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  23:00:52  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was enjoyable to read, and a cool mythology. How do the deities come into existence, is it through the damaging of the One? I feel like I could work parts of this into my own idea - the One and Cthon seem to be good mythological analogues for "Perfect Life" and "Perfect Unlife" in my own proto-mythology.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  23:11:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

That is a fantastic list of all the 4e stuff ZeromaruX! So many memories of lore-reading from my 4e campaign. Nice work assembling all that.

One thing that has bugged me is the Io/Asgorath thing. Io is supposedly destroyed during the Dawn War, but Asgorath is one of the primordials involved with the batrachi event much later. Plus, Io is associated with some myths of dragonborn creation - but I guess that's only a problem if we suppose they were created on Abeir, if they were created before Abeir-Toril was sundered that would make reconciling the two easier. Perhaps there is a deeper meaning to why they have two names - perhaps twins, or one being the shadow of the other?


If we took dragon myths at face value, Io/Asgorath seems to be a being far older than the normal gods (in Monster Mythology he even created the whole multiverse. According to dragons, at least). That means he (or she) is possibly in the same category of Atropus, another being older than gods. We can group those two with the Guardian of the Living Gate (a being that was neither god nor primordial, but "kin to both", according to 4e PHB 3).

So, maybe Io was just injured, and Bahamut and Tiamat took his place in the war. Products from older editions have myths of Io creating Bahamut and Tiamat without dying. And even one of the 4e Draconomicons posses the possibility of Bahamut and Tiamat being alive before the Dawn War (IIRC, the one about Chromatic Dragons), so this can be possible.

Then, when the batrachi were summoning primordials, Io answered the call (he was kin to both, so he got the call as well), but wanted a world for only his creation, the dragons (we know this thanks to Council of Wyrms). Wanted specifically Abeir-Toril, because... heck, whatever. He knew it would become a cool setting in the future (?) So, when the gods were unable to leave the world to a "primordial", he enraged and Ao had to create another world just for Io. The other primordials just came along— it was that, or being imprisoned again (and we know not all primordials went to Abeir).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Feb 2017 23:19:20
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