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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  22:57:48  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keep in mind that some gods (or Estelar, if you prefer) didn't spring from ideas, either, as they were around before mortals. I guess you could say they were "ideas" of the universe, in a metaphorical sense, but I wouldn't call it "ideas" in the way we think of the concept.

I still need to read Zeromaru's Nentir Vale. I've just been preoccupied.

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
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2052 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  23:01:43  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dender/Jormungandr is Cthulu [;P] LOL

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  23:02:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Continued...
The illithids hold the key. They are lawful, as is Ilsensine. I was going to make it an Obyrith, but I can't. Not really (although there are lawful demons). The back-story I've put together for the illithids isn't like the other aberrations. I'm starting to think their presence might be an accident. I'm toying with the idea of making them 'magical beasts' of the Elderverse (they are parasitic race, and rely on that to reproduce, but how did they reproduce, and what were they, before they ran into humans... and humanoids?) If the advent of the D&Dverse encroaching on the Elderverse is what began their apotheosis into a sentient species, then they would be among the few Far Realms lifeforms that wouldn't want to see the New Universe 'undone'. Ilsensine may be the other universe's first (and only?) 'God'.

Some of this also allows me to 'fudge' canon by reassigning some beings (like I'd prefer Dendar to be an Obyrith now). There is something there I am not quite putting my finger on, regarding Ubtao, Eshadow, and Shar. I've always assumed Bahamut was Behemoth (from The Bible), and Tiamat is supposedly Leviathan (also, from The Bible), but what if Ubtao was really Behemoth? (which makes TONS of sense, since in D&D, we now call dinosaurs 'behemoths'). Would that then make Dendar 'Leviathan', who is said to be a 'sea monster', and Dendar is often equated to Jormungandr, who is 'at the bottom of the sea' (so, another 'sea serpent' - it calls it that right in Wikipedia).

And if we apply the Bible myths to FR's (and, perhaps, the Norse), then what we have is two 'primal monsters' appearing at 'the end of the world' for a final conflict (so yeah, Thor is also Behemoth, and maybe Marduk LOL).

Ya know, that's not so far-fetched. I see Wikipedia making a similar comparison, and dinosaurs are also called 'Thunderbeasts' (because of the sound of their footfalls). Thunder-God and Thunderbeast... who knew? The deeper I go down this rabbit hole, the more parallels I am seeing world-wide (and I get the feeling Ed devoured every scrap of mythology he could get his hands on when he was a wee lad).


So I guess, to give the edited, 'cliffs Notes' version of the above, some obyriths passed themselves off as Estelar, while others passed themselves off as primordials, and that worked, because no-one was really keeping track of anything in those early times ("The Time before Time").

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 23:21:00
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  23:17:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Keep in mind that some gods (or Estelar, if you prefer) didn't spring from ideas, either, as they were around before mortals. I guess you could say they were "ideas" of the universe, in a metaphorical sense, but I wouldn't call it "ideas" in the way we think of the concept.
That's actually what I meant - Estelar are the 'Gods before gods' (what we call 'deities'). They were concepts/ideas that emerged from the consciousness of the universe itself.

I know... it sounds like more hair-splitting, but one set of beings was 'by design', and the others were just 'happy accidents' (or not so happy LOL).

So all are 'Gods', but Estelar are what happens when the universe dreams, as opposed to immortals, which is what occurs when mortals dream. Primordials are also 'gods' (small 'g') in my book as well, just to make all the old lore and new lore work-out. They're just 'messier'.

In my latest homebrew, Obyrith Lords are the Gods of another universe, who sometimes pass themselves off as either Primordials or Estelar, but are neither. They each have their own agenda (being chaotic, their 'working together' lasted about as long as they were able to push the Shard of Pure Evil into the D&Dverse). In other words, they were trying to 'pop' the balloon.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I still need to read Zeromaru's Nentir Vale. I've just been preoccupied.
The whole first part of it is basically the history of the D&Dverse, so its very, very good. Some of it is contradictory, but he does a bang-up job of keeping it all straight, which is no small feat.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  23:56:22  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, okay, sorry, I misunderstood.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  00:04:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to read it, here is the updated version (and I guess is the next one will be the last):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2mLfpEGKv-Sb29tN2tBYVBWZzA/view?usp=sharing

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  00:18:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So looking at what I just did in the Primordials thread, I now think that there is a title (I created) - the Archordials - which is not a real 'tier', but rather, just another name for the (true) Elemental Lords, to distinguish them from the 'lesser elemental lords', like archomentals. Thre are four of them, and although their purpose is to be in charge of the Primordials, they themselves are actually Estelar, which causes some confusion. They each have a more 'human' aspect they use among followers (several, actually), and also a more 'primal' aspect, of the element itself.

Thus, Kossuth/Kakatal, Istishia/Straasha, Grumbar/Grome, and Akadi/Lassa*

My reasoning for this? Mostly because I think they SHOULD be a 'step above' other primordials (else, why are they the 'big four' and not any of the others?), and also, it just makes it easier to blend the new lore in with the old (because now the 'primordial lords' ARE Gods... and can grant divine spells. They are unique in that they can also be used as a 'Primal power' source, because of their charge (control over the primal powers and primordials).

*EDIT:
I originally had 'Misha' here, but with a little more research i discovered Lassa, who is supposedly the mother of Misha and Graoll (who would then be 'Wind Dukes of Aaqa', or 'Vaati')

EDIT2:
And since I am going through 1eDD once again, Misha and Graoll would be know as Fei Lien & Feng Po in the Kara-Turran (Chinese) pantheon. I guess not all the Vaati were 'dukes' - some were counts.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2017 02:09:53
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  00:36:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They are the "big four" because they not opposed the gods, hence they weren't defeated, sealed, killed, etc. and could chose to have followers and be among the gods. Much like Ubtao did in fact.

Because, really, I see pure entropy by far more powerful than an elemental power. And there are primordials of entropy, and they have proved to by way stronger than a great number of gods. We have Timesus the Black Star, who was defeated by the combined might of several gods, and most of those gods died. And in the Realms we have Entropy, that:

"Befuddling sages and theologians for millennia, Entropy’s true purpose was at last revealed upon the calamitous joining of worlds brought on by the Spellplague. As the Swallower of Gods and the Devourer of Worlds, Entropy has represented the single direst threat to the mortal world since the Age before Ages. In that long ago era, when Ao banished the primordials to Abeir, the overgod imprisoned Entropy in the guise of a sphere of annihilation and discarded the inert primordial on Toril with a warning to the gods: Govern the world wisely or face utter oblivion. With Cyric’s folly and the unraveling of the Weave, Entropy is freed once more to spread ruin across the face of Toril. Every day the primordial’s entropic maw grows wider, threatening to swallow the world whole, while the weakened powers of the Astral Sea stand powerless to stop it.

Dungeon Magazine, 178: Backdrop Chessenta

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  01:12:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is why I have reassigned Entropy as an Obyrith (Elderverse 'god') who just poses as a primordial. There are a few others like him/her/it as well.

I was thinking about making Ubtao an Obyrith that betrayed the rest, but I think I'd rather spin Ilsensine that way (not sure yet - still tinkering with the illithids - their 'history' is rather weird. Ilsensine may have actually been 'born of this world' (the D&Dverse, not the Far Realms). However, spinning it as the ONLY true God of the Elderverse is kinda neat, too. It just complicates matters because then there'd have to be a little 'back and forth' going on between universes. Then again, their past is everyone else's future.. hmmmmmmm...

My head is starting to hurt from this one, but maybe the Elderverse (Far Realms) doesn't have Temporal Prime. In fact, it shouldn't - 'Time' is one of the dimensions; one of the 'fixed rules' of this universe. Thus, the illithids may have created themselves, by using the ability to move through time HERE, and then go back THERE.

Of course, if there is no 'time' in the Elderverse ('The Time before time'), then how are the aberrations 'running out of time' in my homebrew cosmology?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2017 01:12:58
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  01:22:11  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Temporal prime...? I guess that I should delve more into the lore of old D&D...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  01:31:59  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I was thinking about making Ubtao an Obyrith that betrayed the rest, but I think I'd rather spin Ilsensine that way (not sure yet - still tinkering with the illithids - their 'history' is rather weird. Ilsensine may have actually been 'born of this world' (the D&Dverse, not the Far Realms). However, spinning it as the ONLY true God of the Elderverse is kinda neat, too. It just complicates matters because then there'd have to be a little 'back and forth' going on between universes. Then again, their past is everyone else's future.. hmmmmmmm...

My head is starting to hurt from this one, but maybe the Elderverse (Far Realms) doesn't have Temporal Prime. In fact, it shouldn't - 'Time' is one of the dimensions; one of the 'fixed rules' of this universe. Thus, the illithids may have created themselves, by using the ability to move through time HERE, and then go back THERE.

Of course, if there is no 'time' in the Elderverse ('The Time before time'), then how are the aberrations 'running out of time' in my homebrew cosmology?



Perhaps the "back and forth" brought a semblance of time to the Elderverse? Or, more likely, as worlds "grow" or are created, they get tacked on to the multiverse, like a group of bubbles all stuck together. They are separate, but nevertheless influence each other, because you will have "bleeding" as the worlds touch each other. Even in the "time before time", there would still be a cycle of sorts, because that allowed the Elderverse to function/grow/whatever. Even if time isn't a concept, there is a passing of sorts. So, maybe the aberrations are running out of passings/cycles.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Oct 2017 01:32:48
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  01:39:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YES! I was thinking along these very same lines.

Before the D&Dverse intruded upon the Elderverse, everyone there existed 'at all points in time at once'. They wouldn't think that was weird, because it would have been normal for them - they are non-linear beings. Then they have to start dealing with the D&Dverse, which DOES have time, and they are stuck following its rules.

When the 'bubble' first happened (the 'Big Bang'), they were probably taken completely off-guard, since they were aware of 'all points in time', and this was something totally new and unexpected.

Oh, and Pyaray from the Melniboean pantheon is Cthulhu.

Dender is just Dender... hangin' around doing Dender stuff.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2017 02:00:52
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  02:13:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Temporal prime...? I guess that I should delve more into the lore of old D&D...
The supplement Chronomancer is completely based around the concept. Its the 'Plane of Time'.

Not very useful (IMO) as a game-aid (seriously, how can anyone use time travel and NOT have it cause problems?), but it is a fascinating study into how time works in a magical universe. Just for the lore, its very good.

Plus - even though its considered 'core' - we all suspect the 'secret Lord of time' is really the Netherese Chronomancer (I mean, COME ON! the product it literally named after him).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  02:35:25  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see. Seems similar to the anomalous plane (planes that exists outside the "normal multiverse") known as the Plane of Moments in the World Axis cosmology. The Plane of Moments was basically a place full of golden streams, each stream being a different timeline. The place was extremely difficult to get at and full of epic level beings acting as guardians of the timelines.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  02:58:04  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

YES! I was thinking along these very same lines.

Before the D&Dverse intruded upon the Elderverse, everyone there existed 'at all points in time at once'. They wouldn't think that was weird, because it would have been normal for them - they are non-linear beings. Then they have to start dealing with the D&Dverse, which DOES have time, and they are stuck following its rules.

When the 'bubble' first happened (the 'Big Bang'), they were probably taken completely off-guard, since they were aware of 'all points in time', and this was something totally new and unexpected.




And since they touch 'all points in time', the part (if you will) that was 'touching' the D&Dverse was thus affected by time, and that rippled through, causing other parts to be affected.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  04:57:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup.

Forcing a universe full of 'laws' on a universe full of anarchists - no wonder they're pissed.

@Zeromaru - I have to wonder what they were thinking there - either someone designing D&D was so ill-informed about D&D that they didn't know about Temporal Prime (which touches all worlds, but its an unimaginable distance between 'time streams', like RW distances between worlds), or, they just 'changed the name just because they could'.

Either is pretty bad.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2017 05:07:50
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  06:10:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that plane is a late inclusion to the World Axis. Perhaps whatever person who did include it did to use a cool concept that was left out when the Realms team created the WA cosmology. As for the name itself... well, dunno.

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1194 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  17:57:02  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always have trouble incorporating Time into the cosmological models of D&D, and I only scanned a copy the Chronomancers Handbook before deciding I will probably never try my hand at Time travel stories in D&D. As a consequence I never bought into the theory on Illithids coming from a future version of the D&D multiverse. A plane of Time breaks continuity, which I will not sacrifice for a story with any semblance of realism.

The githyanki rebellion I place timewise to the Crown Wars on the homeworld of Glyth (the 6th planet of Torils solar system), which was settled earlier and transformed into the ash-filled human cattle-factory but abandoned after the disappearance of Gith around -11,000 DR. So the illithid might have been in Realmsspace for about several hundred or thousand years earlier, secretly importing slaves from Abeir-Toril until their slaves rebelled with their newfound psionic powers.

The aboleth claim to be all lifes elders and Pisaethces the Blood Queen might be the first of the obyrinths/elder evils to have put life on Realmspace before moving on, but they believe it was but an "afterthought", as the Blood Queen does this on all infinite realities she comes in contact with. Interestingly the clergy of the Blood Queen revere her through huge red crystal windows, believing that her return would be proof of the finite size of the multiverse, and that as such it can be conquered and completely dominated for eternity.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Oct 2017 :  19:48:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

I always have trouble incorporating Time into the cosmological models of D&D, and I only scanned a copy the Chronomancers Handbook before deciding I will probably never try my hand at Time travel stories in D&D. As a consequence I never bought into the theory on Illithids coming from a future version of the D&D multiverse. A plane of Time breaks continuity, which I will not sacrifice for a story with any semblance of realism.



How does having a plane of Time break continuity? Especially given that one of the fundamental aspects of it was that you couldn't alter history...

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1194 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  01:52:06  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just dont like have a "planar realm" dedicated to Time, the clockwork nirvana of Mechanus is the closest approximation I dare to envision.

Temporal planes were usually described as chaotic maelstroms filled with sands of time (the grounded up parts of its visitors and denizens), but I prefer to have Time strictly metaphysically linked to the turning of the wheels of Mechanus, and have it have a definitively lawful aspect only truly understood by Primus and a few gods with the Time portfolio.

I ignore all time magic except for the slowing up or speeding down of it, and the time anomalies of the feywild and astral plane, because thinking about time paradoxes hurts my brain.

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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  09:22:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Time' to move on.

So I spent a lot of time today reading old sources, and the trying to remember where I read stuff from yesterday, and the day before. Research can be painful... and I am not even sure why I am doing this at this point. Anyway, I've been working on building a model of the Elderverse (the universe that preexisted this one). Krash thought we were being weird wanting to know about wars between proto-Gods a million years ago - now I am literally trying to 'map' the Big Bang, and what came before it. I never liked 'squishy' monsters like aberrations, but I am starting to grow fond of them, and am even starting to categorize them (categorizing Chaos... I HAVE truly lost my mind).

I guess as I further simplify my current model of the D&Dverse, I need to re-complicate it. I think I have a way of smoothing out a lot of the wrinkles with the draconics and the creations myths. I'll have to post what I have tomorrow, so you guys can shoot holes in it (I am sure I missed something somewhere). Hopefully I can remember it all when I wake up.

The one truly hard thing I tried doing for a good chunk of today is rectifying Eberron's cosmology with everything else. That funky solar-system of theirs is really screwing me over - so hard to fit that in with the whole 'Crystal Sphere' thing of 2e. I have the seed of an idea for that, but trying to weave THOSE three uber-dragons into all the rest is giving me headaches. Its all too Eberron-specific (like the War of Light & Darkness all over again).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 09:34:03
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  18:58:33  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for Eberron, Keith Baker shared his thoughts about the planes here. Maybe his ideas can be of help.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  20:53:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll have to check that out - thanks. in the meantime...

I just had an epiphany. In fact, I'm not sure how no-one thought of this before.

We have this planet, right? or rather, it was once ONE planet and now its TWO planets, right? And every so often things get a little weird and lands and cultures got swapped back-and-forth. Cultures - entire groups of people... get misplaced. Appear out of nowhere. Forgotten Realms. Nothing new there, other than the 4e premises, and they're not so shiny anymore. We have both the Sunderings and Spellplagues (and all a Sundering is just a guided Spellplague), and we have FR's most basic premise - that its the magical universe's 'melting pot'.

And then we have the Imaskari - those dastardly, mustache-twirling villains who just love to kidnap cultures from other worlds... or do they? Are they as evil as we've made them out to be? How do we know that? (some lore books written by guys who've never actually BEEN to Toril? )
For all we know, these cultures came through in the same way this has been happening since the beginning - its a naturally occurring phenomena on Toril. That means Spellplagues are a naturally occurring phenomena, or something very close to them (perhaps they are less detrimental when the goddess of magic and The weave doesn't collapse). In fact...

What if THAT is what The Weave is supposed to do? What if Abeir is the real world (its name does come first LOL), and Toril is just held together with rubberbands & glue? And The Weave is that glue. It starts to go wonky, and all that matter borrowed form elsewhere starts to phase-back to where it belonged... on other worlds. Suddenly, Roman legions find themselves in Chessenta, or proto-Celts find themselves in the Moonshaes, or Eldar (elves) and Dverge (Dwarves) find themselves displaced on their own worlds. Maybe the Yehimals were borrowed from the dwarven homeworld, for all we know. Magic (The Weave) rights-itself and now entire populations are stuck in FR... just as its most basic premise intended.

So maybe the Imaskari were just the 'welcoming committee'?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 21:06:05
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  22:02:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeing the cultures that spread those tales "Imaskari evilness" (a pair of nations full of racists, race supremacists, slavers and hypocrites—they practice slavery yet condemned the Imaskari for doing just the same) and what happened to High Imaskar in the Second(+) Sundering, we can easily conclude that while the Imaskari were no saints, most of their "evil deeds" are just Mulhorandi and Untheran propaganda.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Oct 2017 22:03:43
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 27 Oct 2017 :  22:43:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I don't see them as such. Same with the Netherese - we only hear about the truly bad ones, because those make for the best stories. Halaster himself is Imaskari, and he's not such a bad fella... for a lunatic.

I was being somewhat facetious with the 'welcoming committee' though. What I mean was, they could probably predict where and when large groups of people would come through (or maybe even 'weaken the veil between worlds' enough in a place to allow it to happen). What that means is that they would only really be able to get two types of large groups using this method - advancing armies, and refugees fleeing before them. The armies they could adopt as their own soldiers ("Oh, hi... yeah, the Pharaoh and Egypt aren't around anymore, but if you want to eat and get paid, you can come work for us"), and the rest would be even simpler ("those bad dudes are just about to get you - come work for us, and we'll give you food, clothing, and shelter").

Basically, opportunists, offering a crappy deal to desperate people. And THAT may be what the Fey were giving to the Imakari in those base-reliefs (in the novel Darkvision) - the knowledge to 'thin the veil' to travel between worlds.

Does the feywild touch Abeir, BTW? I am sure the Shadowfell must.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 22:45:04
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