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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  20:05:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Damn, sorry about the wall of text. I had intended that to be short-and-sweet. MY bad.

As for the Olympian pantheon (known as the Greek pantheon on Earth), some were definitely there 'at the beginning'; a lot of MY - and WotC's - cosmology/mythology is now based on that stuff (Creation Myths).

The only ones we should really be concerned with are the 'Core' gods of each pantheon - the really powerful ones near the top. Guys like Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc. In fact, I may be able to get rid of my 'High God' category in the Immortals tier. I'm always trying to streamline things, but its damn hard when you are trying to incorporate EVERYTHNG.

I also have the main gods of Hinduism in there already - the three big ones (Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva) in the 'Eternals' tier. In fact, I could probably get rid of the name and just call these guys the 'Estelar' (although everyone above the Ordial tier are technically Estelar, so maybe I'll keep it). I'd put their wives int their with them (really, just the feminine aspect of those three - once again, these beings are all androgynous), but I am still toying with the idea of making Lolth Kali (its a good fit, except for the accompanying history of both). Still trying to work-out the new genealogies for my cosmic drama.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  20:18:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you can point me where is that error, I can purge it out

But Bane is quite conflicting in canon right now.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  20:31:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and I am staring to think that 'Seldarine' is really just a fey/Elf-specific term for the Estelar - the 'Elder Gods'. It may now mean the Elven pantheon, but thats kind of meaningless, since they've not only merged the fey one into it, but we have tons of evidence of other 'racial gods' being in other race's pantheons (and the very idea that any of these ancient beings - who predate the entire concept of 'race' - would even have a race is ludicrous).

It may also be a way of referring to a specific group of Estelar - perhaps those most concerned with 'mortal affairs' (but now I am just splitting hairs).

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

If you can point me where is that error, I can purge it out
Page 9, second paragraph - a bunch of italics at the bottom there doesn't seem to be referencing the stuff above it. There was also two spelling errors - I should have written those down - I'll try to find them.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But Bane is quite conflicting in canon right now.
NOT when I'm done with him.

EDIT:
is 'Deva' just the 5e (4e?) term for Aasimar now? I think I might like that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2017 18:27:40
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  21:48:41  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deva is a specific type of Aasimar, one that is not a planetouched, but an angel (or celestial, in pre-4e terms) incarnated as a mortal. Then, you get confused with the Deva that is still an immortal angel/celestial...

Yeah, there are two kinds of devas now. Like with the eladrin.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Oct 2017 21:49:41
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Markustay
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USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  21:49:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and I thought about this last night, just as I was falling asleep.

Goliaths, Firbolg, and Irda (Krynn's High Ogres) are all offshoots of the Nephilim - children of mortals and celestial giants.

I am also rethinking the Celestial Giants (Jotuns) altogether, so I am probably going to wander far-afield from D&D canon on that one. I think all of the first races (and I may even be including the Creator Races, or 'ur-mortals') were malleable, like everything else in that first world. They could literally take-on 'templates' (just like in D&D rules, except this is no longer meta-gaming), usually elemental in nature, but it could have been other things. The Jotuns would have really taken to this, hence we have 'frost' and 'fire' giants. Dragons loved it as well, hence their elemental nature. And even some other races, like dwarves becoming Azer. I'm not sure if I want that to be a 'from the beginning' thing, or something that happened as an aftermath of the Dawn War (but definitely BEFORE the Godswar). So basically, there were just Dragons, and there were just giants, and both races started life fairly small (about 3' tall), but then could grow as big as they could, for as long as they were around (there size would be an indication of their age, very much how dragons still are today). This actually eliminates the need for all different 'breeds' of giants before the Sundering, and makes them more like how they were in non-Scandanavian folklore (just 'giants', of every imaginable size), and in Glorantha (Runequest - another old favorite of mine). Thus a 'Titan' would just be a very old, powerful giant.

Later, after the Sundering, things got 'locked in' to their forms. Sadly, the closest thing to the original giants would be the hill giants (who eventually become Mountain Giants, if they live long enough). In the First world, those would just be children, like 8-10 year olds. So the next time you kill a 'stupid hill giant', think on this - its not stupid, its a child. An unevolved form because it no longer can (right around that age true giants would choose their 'path', gain a template, and become more intelligent... those CAN'T). All my homebrew, of course.

Oh, and 'hags' are actually female giants... but that part comes from my 100% homebrew setting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 22:06:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2017 :  21:59:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Deva is a specific type of Aasimar, one that is not a planetouched, but an angel (or celestial, in pre-4e terms) incarnated as a mortal. Then, you get confused with the Deva that is still an immortal angel/celestial...

Yeah, there are two kinds of devas now. Like with the eladrin.

See, I finally like what they did with all the Eladrin stuff (now that I fully understand it), but I think they just made it more convoluted using 'angel' - we gained nothing by swapping that with celestial. Ah, well... I had considered doing much the same awhile back.

On the other hand, it does mean I CAN repurpose 'Celestial' to mean 'Outsider', which is so much better.

So the language Celestial (maybe call it Selestial?) would just be a debased form of Supernal (the language, not MY category), like the 'Common' of the heavens, and the Dark Speech would be a corrupted form of that (not to be confused with Black Speech, from Tolkien, which would be a tainted form... 'taint' and 'corruption' are different).

So Celestials speak Selestial, and fiends can speak Selestial, especially since they are now Celestials.

And if you are a fan of 4e, you used to be categorized as an 'Outsider', but now you get to be a Celestial too!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 22:02:45
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  01:34:56  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oh, and I am staring to think that 'Seldarine' is really just a fey/Elf-specific term for the Estelar - the 'Elder Gods'. It may now mean the Elven panthoen, but thats kind of meaningless, since they've not only merged the fey one into it, but we have tons of evidence of other 'racial gods' being in other race's pantheons (and the very idea that any of these ancient beings - who predate the entire concept of 'race' - would even have a race is ludicrous).

It may also be a way of referring to a specific group of Estelar - perhaps those most concerned with 'mortal affairs' (but now I am just splitting hairs).



I think racial pantheons become the elven, gnome, dwarf, etc pantheon because they are the pantheon of that particular race, and are often the creators of said race. It goes back to the "modeled in their image". They uphold the ideals/morals of that race, and are the "mother" of that race. So of course they aren't going to start out as the elven or gnome pantheon before the mortal elves and gnomes exist, but they become so once that mortal race is created.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:59:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So why doesn't every race just look like a glob of energy/matter?

Because we are talking about beings so far above and beyond mortals - a mere one or two tiers below 'The First' - who were around long before the Prime Material plane was even a thing... so no physical bodies.

And yet, people still insist Corellon always looked like an elf. Go figure.

Corellon, Moradin, some of the 'human' gods - were all the exact same thing back then. Corellon looked no different than any of the others (unless he desired to do so, and that would have only become 'a thing' once the physical world began to take shape). I also laugh at things like 'Set was a snake', or 'Io was a dragon' - you can BE something before that something existed. The most we can say is that when these incredibly ancient beings (I am ONLY talking about ones around before the Dawn War) did start to create Ur-mortals (the races that would eventually BE mortal, but not until later), they "reflected the essence of the god itself". Of course, then we start to walk a very fine line of racism - if scaly things reflect set's 'inner self', does that mean all scaled things are automatically evil? Thats bigotry. Thats why I'd side-stepped that and say something like, "they created races in forms they personally found pleasing". Thus, Set creates races that are low-to-the-ground, even 'groveling on their bellies', because it makes him feel good about himself (so yeah, now I'm psycho-analyzing Gods again LOL).

The earliest Elven and Human (I really do HATE referring to them this way that far back) Gods had very similar outlooks and tastes, thus, elves and humans look a LOT alike. the differences are mostly cosmetic. Dwarves are a little more different, but that's because Moradin was a little more different then them (his love of artifice gave him a feel for 'efficiency', thus he would have reflected that in something 'more compact and capable'). Yondalla - if she was around back then ( still have to check that) - probably wasn't very assertive when dealing with the other Estelar, thus her race looks like there, but is smaller, and less noticeable (so I guess we needed some feminism, even back then).

Of course, I am also running into the problem of MY (homebrew) version of things having very different creations for Hin (halflings AND gnomes). Same with dwarves, but after looking at WotC did, its super-easy to reconcile the two. Then again, a race would not have myths about their creation that reflected poorly on THEM, so i can probably flub all that as well (just say, "This is what the Hin believe, but the truth of the matter is...").

And lastly, ow that I am doing a ton of research on Elves and fey in D&D (going ALL the way back to Arneson's Blackmoor and Chainmail), I think the best approach is to say that groups of gods (usually) worked together on races, and this is why you have slightly different 'models' for each (ethnicities). So if Pale Night approached the Seldarine (it was sort of like a 'private club') disguised as another Estealar ("Hey, you guys are sooo kewl... can I be in your club?"), she could have created the first few Dokkalfar (Dark Elves, or in this case, dark-skinned fey), including Araushnee. You see, I can't have Corellon creating her, because that would get just a little bit icky ("Who's daddy's good girl?" See what I mean?), and since the rest of the Seldarine have a neo-familial type relationship, I'd prefer at least one outsider to be involved there... and it doesn't hurt that that helps my homebrew lore. Besides, I am not so sure Pale Night wasn't the actual model for the Fey - whereas she came from another universe, the rest of them ('Gods') just appeared, whole-cloth, in a vacuum with no preconceptions of how physical matter should even look, let alone races of people.

Hmmmm... perhaps I can spin her as Corellon's first 'lover' (in which case, to do anything, he would have had to manifest in his very first physical form, and the only reference material he'd have for that was Pale Night herself...

I absolutely LOVE this site - its when I am discussing this stuff that ideas just grow on their own. Imagine if the Obyriths WERE the original 'Dark Elves', and that Dark Elves came first (sort of). Perhaps Pale Night looked something like this. Not all of them, mind you - some would be quite Lovecraftian - and she herself (it?) could probably take any form it wanted, so it may have just taken a form it knew Corellon would find appealing.

EDIT:
Okay, after just checking Pale Night's entry, you are correct about her being 'insubstantial', but that seems to just be a form she maintains to confuse, like how a vampire can become mist. It says "she appears as an empty flowing white shroud with the suggestion of a shapely female body underneath", so I can assume she can take a physical form of great beauty whenever she wants, and one of her forms could look very much like the pic I linked above (that could be the 'shapely female body' in the mists). It also goes on to say she takes this aspect to obscure her true form, which is something very aberrational (Lovecraftian - horrifying and ancient).

So basically, she pulled the first 'hag maneuver' on Corellon. He was probably wondering why he kept feeling tentacles...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2017 19:13:44
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  23:44:55  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The gods probably started out as balls of energy/matter, but they eventually took a form. It could be the "form they found most pleasing", or for some other reason. Perhaps they took this form, found it pleasing, and thus "modeled" their "mortal" creations/followers after that image. For whatever reason, they likely had a physical form by the time they created their "mortals".

Perhaps one of the reason the gods took physical form is because it allowed for easier interaction with one another, whether that be negotiations, fighting, taking a lover, or any other form of interaction. Sure, they could probably do this as balls of matter/energy, but it was likely easier (and perhaps more attractive to them?) to have a physical form. They could have experimented a bit before settling on a form.

Or, if we go back to the idea that multipsheric gods comes from a source (such as a ball of energy), the "Moradin ball" (LOL), could have created other "Moradins", and these Moradins look more...dwarven, shall we say? I like my idea in the previous paragraph better, but I still wanted to propose this one, since we've talked about it before.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
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Posted - 22 Oct 2017 :  07:26:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yeah, it all goes back to the 'archtypes' I've talked about numerous times before (which isn't mine - I got that from an old D&D source - probably the original Deiies & Demigods). It said that every world with elves (Fey) have a 'Corellon', and other Seldarine (above the demi-tier), but these are just 'aspects of the archtype'. I liked that a lot, way back when i first started migrating from GH to FR, because I was confused by why demi-human deities didn't just take over the universe, since they were all-pervasive.

But if we look at it like each 'archtype' (and even human gods have 'em) has to 'shed' some power each time it crates a sphere-specific aspect, and each of these aspects becomes somewhat independent of the original, then its almost like 'cloning' a god. And over time, these would start to act,and even look, different.

I'm just wondering what template they were all working off of, because when it comes right down to it, the five main PC races in D&D all look VERY 'human' (or rather, look a LOT alike, compared to some other races out there). And they all look like giants, which came first. Did they look at Annam's giants and think, "yeah, like that... but smaller"? (some setting had giants that also looked like elves and dwarves - it may have been Krynn).

I'm still working on my own 'cosmic genealogy' (trying to hook-together every single major mythos, and D&D, and even a couple of other non-D&D settings). I have to work-out the canon connections first (there were quite a few 'familial' connections in places I never expected!) before I start layering-in my own Homebrew lore. I've had to move Lolth around quite a bit in the last few years, but I think I finally know where to put her, and how to spin her. There was also a spider-primordial I have to tie to her somehow (I had an inspiration earlier, but I'm tired now, and I can't remember it).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
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Posted - 22 Oct 2017 :  21:47:52  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I've said before that each "archetype", to use that word, is still an independent entity. The Corellon of Toril is separate from the Corellon of Grayhwak, even if they could from the same "Corellon energy/matter".

Or, just to throw this out there as food for thought, what if each deity is in fact entirely separate? The universe is chaotic, but there can also be patterns. Based on this, if there is a Corellon of Grawyhwak, there has to be a Corellon (or Corellon-like god) of another world, too. Of course, the Seldarine are immigrant deities, so they came from elsewhere, anyway. It's kind of like the idea that in another dimension, there is another "you", but your life plays out differently.

As for the five main PC resemblance...hmm, I had a thought on this, but that was early this morning, and I've forgotten it. I've gotten a new job, and I have a lot to learn, so I forgot most of what I planned to post XD. I think it was something along the lines of perhaps the "PC deities" saw other gnome, dwarf, and elf gods, and they liked the way they looked (in dimensions even older than the Torilian universe, or wherever they immigrated from).

Sweet water and light laughter
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LordofBones
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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  05:14:31  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's assuming you use a different cosmology. There's no reason why the same deity couldn't be worshipped on multiple worlds.
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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  20:14:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yeah. Whereas I used to completely go with what CorellonsDevout said above, with the 4e/5e lore now, the different versions of different gods isn't really a thing anymore.

In fact, the only reason why I keep that concept floating around is because of stupid Bane, because its the only way to explain whats going on with him.

The gods don't live on the worlds (only the demipowers ever did), they live in the planes. So you would have just one Corellon (The archtype), and he would send Avatars to the various worlds, whenever he needed to, and those avatars may look and behave different, depending upon the beliefs of the group he is sending it to. I'd probably add a caveat to the rules regarding avatars from 3e's DD - I would say multispheric powers get a number of avatars equal to their DvR, + 1 per world they have a presence on. Because for a person like Corellon - who probably is worshiped on a thousand worlds - 20 avatars is just not enough.


Hmmm, maybe an archtype can have aspects for each world, and then each aspect gets its own avatars depending on power-level on the world in question? Thats pretty convoluted, though, and now we are getting back to the mess that was 2e's planer lore. Or maybe turn DvR into usable points, to 'buy' avatars, and there could be different strength ones.

Type I Avatar: Basically, little more than a powerful mortal, maybe equivalent to lev. 10-12 (costs 1/12 of a DvR pt. to make)
Type II Avatar: 'Standard' Avatar, is pretty much a demipower. If the god loses it, he is temporarily reduced 1 DvR
Type III Avatar: Costs 6(?) standard avatars to make, equivalent to a lesser power (so, true god, but still not 'full strength')

An avatar gets destroyed, the God losses that power (DvR) and can 'heal' it at the rate of 1pt. per year (so 1/12 of a pt. per month). Minor manifestations ('signs and portents') cost nothing, or so little it doesn't matter. Treat them like very powerful illusions that mortals cannot 'disbelieve'.

Not that any of this should ever come into play - I just need to know whats going on, so people don't ask questions like, "why doesn't a god just create a 1000 copies of himself and create his own army?" Every god has at least a dozen other gods looking for a moment of weakness.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  23:03:39  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just want to ask something: why people says that Qotal = Bahamut?

As an avid fan of all draconic, and the guy who updated Bahamut's article on the wiki, I can say this: Bahamut cannot be Qotal, just because Qotal is the dickiest god ever. Bahamut being a dick would be against the whole concept of Bahamut, in fact.

"Lawful god"? Hah, the term must have been pretty much different in 2e than its "lawful-stupid" 3.x incarnation.

(No. Zero is not reading Maztica's history right now)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Oct 2017 23:07:47
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  00:13:11  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL, sorry, I had to laugh at "dickiest god ever" XD. That phrase made me chuckle.

Sweet water and light laughter
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LordofBones
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  02:49:48  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most deities have servants and proxies. The uber-meddlers and the ones most protective of their flck should be the demipowers; they need the worship and bestowing cool bling on prospective followers is a good way to build up a clergy. Greater powers can afford to be distant and work through intermediaries and planar minions, but the lesser powers and the demipowers are the ones who tend to get their hands dirty by directly intervening.
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  02:57:18  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Most deities have servants and proxies. The uber-meddlers and the ones most protective of their flck should be the demipowers; they need the worship and bestowing cool bling on prospective followers is a good way to build up a clergy. Greater powers can afford to be distant and work through intermediaries and planar minions, but the lesser powers and the demipowers are the ones who tend to get their hands dirty by directly intervening.



That's pretty much how I run it.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  04:43:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Me as well. I use priests and churches (religions/cults) all the time, but not the gods themselves. There is no need for that - its heavy-handed.

I don't think Bahamut = Qotal. I used to have a theory where Tiamat and Bahamut were aspects of (the trapped) Ahriman and Jazirian, and then I had another weird theory about them being originally chaotic (just to give us four dragons of the four main branches of the alignment tree), but I don't proscribe to any of that anymore.

By making them Eternals it solves everything, and I don't need to involve Tiamat and Bahamut who came later. It also means that Ahriman and Jazirian are so far removed from 'mortals' that we go right back to what I said about (some) primordials - its not that those powers are/were 'evil' per se, its just that we are completely beneath their notice, and if they have to wipe-out a thousand crystal spheres in order to get part of their agenda done, they would. They are trapped, just as many primordials are, and they can only send forth aspects (avatars) of themselves, but because they are such truly monolithic and ancient powers, even their aspects are stronger than most deities. Very few beings of that magnitude bother with mortals, and the few who do (like the Seldarine) probably know something the rest don't.

I do like playing Tiamat against Lolth in Maztica (in mythology, it was Tiamat that created the Scorpionmen). That she somehow pulled the Maztican Drow away from Lolth, so now they are more like the Eberron elves of Aerenal.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2017 04:45:17
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  05:10:27  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I asked because I have saw that comparison before, every now and then. It just that reading the Maztican myths, Qotal cannot be LG, and cannot be compared with any good god. They guy is just... a dick, there is no other way to describe him.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  05:39:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In another thread (probably the 'Maztica Alive!' one), I had Zehir = "King of douches".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2017 05:40:11
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sleyvas
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Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  13:11:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The gods don't live on the worlds (only the demipowers ever did), they live in the planes. So you would have just one Corellon (The archtype), and he would send Avatars to the various worlds, whenever he needed to, and those avatars may look and behave different, depending upon the beliefs of the group he is sending it to. I'd probably add a caveat to the rules regarding avatars from 3e's DD - I would say multispheric powers get a number of avatars equal to their DvR, + 1 per world they have a presence on. Because for a person like Corellon - who probably is worshiped on a thousand worlds - 20 avatars is just not enough.

Hmmm, maybe an archtype can have aspects for each world, and then each aspect gets its own avatars depending on power-level on the world in question? Thats pretty convoluted, though, and now we are getting back to the mess that was 2e's planer lore. Or maybe turn DvR into usable points, to 'buy' avatars, and there could be different strength ones.

Type I Avatar: Basically, little more than a powerful mortal, maybe equivalent to lev. 10-12 (costs 1/12 of a DvR pt. to make)
Type II Avatar: 'Standard' Avatar, is pretty much a demipower. If the god loses it, he is temporarily reduced 1 DvR
Type III Avatar: Costs 6(?) standard avatars to make, equivalent to a lesser power (so, true god, but still not 'full strength')




Markustay,

Do you realize that you just came up with a decent argument for why manifestations and incarnations exist? For instance, the Mulhorandi would normally send in an avatar, but in this instance, if they did so they'd permanently lose it as maybe the power can't return. So, instead they create something similar to but different than an avatar. Maybe they even create it using a living servant who willingly sacrifices their own life to join their god and let their god fill their vessel. But doing this lets them get past the 20 avatar limit.... and thus this is a way to limit godly influence across the planes.... they just can't make that many avatars to keep their worshippers praying across possibly hundreds or thousands of crystal spheres. Meanwhile a greater god in just one world can produce avatars on a whim and thus keep his position safe.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  13:17:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I just want to ask something: why people says that Qotal = Bahamut?

As an avid fan of all draconic, and the guy who updated Bahamut's article on the wiki, I can say this: Bahamut cannot be Qotal, just because Qotal is the dickiest god ever. Bahamut being a dick would be against the whole concept of Bahamut, in fact.

"Lawful god"? Hah, the term must have been pretty much different in 2e than its "lawful-stupid" 3.x incarnation.

(No. Zero is not reading Maztica's history right now)



Qotal = Ubtao is one that we've been floating a lot. Not sure Qotal = Bahamut. I know Markustay was floating the draconic pantheon equals the Maztican, which has some merits but I don't want to see. If anything, there's too much feather stuff for Maztica (granted there's also reptile stuff too). I think the Maztican "gods" are something else, and they've been worshipped by a lot of the early cultures. I think they latched on to humans to keep their godly essence alive and barely give a fig about the humans other than them being a source of souls.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  17:36:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In another thread (probably the 'Maztica Alive!' one), I had Zehir = "King of douches".



After having read Maztica's history, he has been dethroned by Qotal.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  01:44:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What? You have something against gods who want thousands of people brutally sacrificed to them?

They're ALL like that - some just call it 'Holy Wars'.

Celebrity Death Match:
Zehir "King of Douches' vs Qotal "dickiest god ever'


And thanks, Sleyvas. I assume there'd also be a type IV and Type V, corresponding to intermediate and greater powers. Yeah, a god loses a normal Avatar, it takes a full year to get the DvR pt. back. And if they send something stronger, they run the risk of being substantially weakened for a prolonged period of time. On the other hand, if they send too weak a 'starter god' to another Crystal Sphere, it would have much less of a chance to be successful.

Also, I'm not going to work out a pt. system for godly power based upon followers (but it would be based on mortal levels, so the quality of followers would also be very important), but assume there is one, because we know gods lose power as they lose their followers, and vice-verse. Thus, a brand-new god in a crystal sphere would only have a short time to establish itself, before it 'withered'. The Mulan Gods had no such problem - even if their people had forgotten about them (a bunch of centuries had passed, didn't they?), them showing up and kicking the Imaskari's arse (and freeing all the slaves) sure would be a great way to get those people to worship you right quick.

I'm thinking they would lose maybe a DvR per year until they 'fade away' (go dormant in the astral), which means a normal avatar sent to establish a god in a new Sphere would only have that one year. The God could send a 'lesser god' aspect there, but then it would be greatly weakened.

Although I'm not really sure what the purpose of being 'Multispheric' is, when there is a level-cap on deity power of DvR 20, and you don't need to be multispheric to get that. Maybe there is a threshold you reach and you ascend even further? (like my 'Eternals' level, which is mostly made-up of folks we used to call 'Overowers'). You get to that level and then you can really make things happen.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 21:34:53
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 25 Oct 2017 :  22:48:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, so now I got some new ideas for my ever-evolving, sometimes revolving, 'Over-Cosmology'.

Basically, I've had the same idea about our (D&D) universe being a 'bubble' within the 'real' universe, which isn't nearly as much fun as ours. There are no hard rules in that (that I've dubbed 'the Elderverse'), so its mostly just pockets of stuff floating amidst vast seas of proto-matter (elemental chaos), that they themselves float in a very empty 'nothing'. In fact, most of the races that spawned there (aberrations) didn't even interact until the D&Dverse appeared and threatened them all. For those of you who have read the Wellworld series (and if you haven't, I recommend it), its like the Markovian universe, except with more types of 'Markovians' (who would fit in just fine among D&D's aberrations - they look like 6' tall hearts with tentacles). In fact, likening it to that work makes me think that the D&Dverse may have been caused by something in the Elderverse (an 'explosion of Law'?)

But recently, I've added-in that instead of our universe simply expanding and 'pushing' the Elderverse further out (and away), the Elderverse is instead FINITE, which is something new I've added. So now picture it like a balloon growing inside of a larger balloon, but the larger balloon is NOT growing (because the smaller one is actually 'gobbling up' the stuff from the larger one). That would leave those existing races (aberrations) in a bit of a pickle. In fact, I've even reasoned-out when it will hit 'critical mass' - in about 2000 years.

The other thing I've just decided about this otherverse (I sure do have a lot of different names for the Far Realms LOL) is that it didn't have gods (Estelar, or deities), but it did have its own version of Primordials - the Obyriths. These are actually a different class of being than the primordials or Estelar, because they have qualities of both, while being neither. They spawned of their own accord in that chaos, but unlike the Estelar, they were not concepts and ideas, they were just insanely powerful beings of matter and energy (like primordials). Thus, 'Chaos' made sentient.

Another thing I had decided in the past few days - while reading through ZeromaruX's excellent History of the Nentir Vale - was that all primordials could NOT have been 'created'. I had thought that was the main difference between Estelar and primordials - Estelar formed from ideas, but primordials were created to make those ideas a reality. But apparently, some primordials may have even pre-existed 'the Gods' (Estelar). So now that I've built-up my proto-pantheon to include everyone and everything, its time to start 'skimming the fat', as it were (or 'downsizing' as they call it in business).

I had considered those two tiers of primordials for a day or two, but now that I have my mind wrapped firmly around what I think the Obyrith Lords were, I think the preexisting primordials are actually Obyriths. or 'were' Obyriths, but thats just splitting hairs, again.

The Estelar show-up, and there's some uber-powerful beings already around, and those guys say, "who? Us? We're, ummm... primordials! Yeah, thats it... primordials. Just 'bigger badder' ones." As I say repeatedly, at these levels of power (and before matter even existed in the universe... probably), there is no going by what someone looks like - its all about power levels. The Estelar see these guys and are like, "Okay, they must be naturally-forming beings of elemental matter", and on many levels, they'd be right, because thats precisely what the Obyriths were... in another universe. Which is actually the SAME universe, savvy?

So the Obyriths came here from their vanishing Elderverse - all that's left of it are 'the Far Realms' - and although they initially came here to put a stop to this universe, some of them have changed their agendas (seeing that this new universe is somewhat more interesting than the old one, in may ways). To be con't...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 23:06:23
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