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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2016 : 20:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I know. What I meant to say is that the regular Iron Flask, which is the one used in the book, couldn't contain a Primordial.
I don't have the book yet, so I can't agree whether or not the one in the book is just a standard-issue model, though I tend to doubt it, given its intended use. I will concur, though, that the standard-issue model won't contain a primordial. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2016 : 20:49:47
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I don't have it either, but:
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
It's just called an Iron Flask in the book... make of it what you will.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2016 : 21:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't have it either, but:
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
It's just called an Iron Flask in the book... make of it what you will.
Mirtek's post indicates it's not a standard-issue one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2016 : 21:24:54
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| Which one? In his latest post he mentions that the Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless is used in an adventure included in a printed issue of Dragon magazine, to say that it couldn't imprison a living demon lord. Unless I'm misunderstanding it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2016 : 22:42:30
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Its a "normal" Iron Flask. No write up in the book in the magic item section, after looking it up in the DMG, its a Legendary Wondrous Item.
I really didn't think of all the different ways powerful beings have been imprisoned in the Realms. Now it makes sense. I got no problem with that plot-hook. Still think its Wizbro's way of statting up a "Nasty-Bad"! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 14 Sep 2016 22:54:51 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2016 : 22:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Not really i waa just being sarcastic. Esoecially since i feel their attemots to bring back what was lost failed. This edition has less atmosphere than 4e so i have trouble seeing how people care what happens in it.
It is a poor way to deal with an event that should and could have been a major adventure in itself. Im with you on the wtf moment here. I just care less because its 5e, so apologies for being a kn*b.
I'm actually getting a OGB feel from the 5E Realms. Which IMO is a win. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 03:20:07
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| Not that I'm a fan of the doppleganger Harnoth idea, but I can't help but wonder if priests of Abbathor wouldn't be behind such a move. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 03:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Its a "normal" Iron Flask. No write up in the book in the magic item section, after looking it up in the DMG, its a Legendary Wondrous Item.
I really didn't think of all the different ways powerful beings have been imprisoned in the Realms. Now it makes sense. I got no problem with that plot-hook. Still think its Wizbro's way of statting up a "Nasty-Bad"!
So who's uncorking that baby in Waterdeep first? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 18:53:50
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NOW I remember why I stopped coming around here. LMAO
At least I can laugh about all this now. 
Old School writers/designers: "I created this very cool thing! Yay, I made the setting better!"
Current WotC Employees: "Hey! Someone created a cool thing, Since I've never had a clever idea of my own, I'll just blow their s*** up!"
Yeah... it probably went something just like that...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2016 19:00:05 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 00:50:10
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| Sorry man, humor is my attempt to cope with the horror of it all. :( |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 02:04:37
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| So, the fire giant that wanted the primordial..... was he like horny or something? Was he ugly and the other fire giant women wouldn't give him a look? Sorry, couldn't resist. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 03:46:13
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| Wanted to use the primordial to power the Fire Giant Forge called Ironslag. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 04:15:50
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| Yeah... book upon book dealing with the fire primordial in Gautlygrym and then going the extra mile to reestablish the Dwarf Kingdom to make use of and protect the fire primordial where it can never erupt again... all down the drain because of reasons. Those are the kinds of decisions that can piss people off. I guess since the books are ending (speculation) the games can do whatever they want now though I guess they did that before anyway. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 04:27:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
Yeah... book upon book dealing with the fire primordial in Gautlygrym and then going the extra mile to reestablish the Dwarf Kingdom to make use of and protect the fire primordial where it can never erupt again... all down the drain because of reasons. Those are the kinds of decisions that can piss people off. I guess since the books are ending (speculation) the games can do whatever they want now though I guess they did that before anyway.
There have also been cases of novels ignoring established lore. That kind of inconsistency is not something new in the Realms, as far as I can tell. But yeah, this is annoying. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Sep 2016 04:30:03 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 05:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
Yeah... book upon book dealing with the fire primordial in Gautlygrym and then going the extra mile to reestablish the Dwarf Kingdom to make use of and protect the fire primordial where it can never erupt again... all down the drain because of reasons. Those are the kinds of decisions that can piss people off. I guess since the books are ending (speculation) the games can do whatever they want now though I guess they did that before anyway.
There have also been cases of novels ignoring established lore. That kind of inconsistency is not something new in the Realms, as far as I can tell. But yeah, this is annoying.
A franchise (brand) as big as the Forgotten Realms, which spans tabletop games (D&D), online games (Neverwinter, DDO, Baldur's Gate series), and numerous novels….. really should have 1 person in charge as "Keeper of Canon, keeper of lore".
It should be that persons job to say like "Hey James, I know your last FR book sold well, but this new book…. I really can't permit you to portray all Sword Coast orcs as having bright purple skin. There's really no precedence for that, ok?"
James the Novelist: "Why not! Purple skinned orcs are cool! It worked great for that last WoW expansion, so why don't you let me do it for FR?"
Lore Keeper: "No dice. You change it, or this (book licensing) deal falls through."
I do wonder…. has there ever been such a job for D&D within TSR or WotC? Or do other (smarter) companies like Paizo/Pathfinder has such a position?
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 05:36:53
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Jim Lowder used to be the "traffic cop" who did that for the FR. Rich Baker took over that role during 3e.
Paizo has James Jacobs doing the same for Golarion, I believe. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 06:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Jim Lowder used to be the "traffic cop" who did that for the FR. Rich Baker took over that role during 3e.
Paizo has James Jacobs doing the same for Golarion, I believe.
I ah see, so they used to have that "traffic cop" role. So I take it the position no longer exists at WotC? ….since (as I understand) numerous staff layoffs occurred between the final days of 4e and the start of 5e. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 07:06:00
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We don't have any idea if they have a "traffic cop" or not as far as I'm aware. People can guess, but it'd be just that.
In my own humble opinion, though I'm only relatively new to the Realms, all I'm seeing in the SCAG and other sources are real attempts to not only emulate OGB feel, but also to link in to other products and maintain consistency. I've read plenty of old era stuff now, and the SCAG mostly lines up with that stuff rather than contradicting it. And it's not like Salvatore seems like an easy person to line up canon with, it seems like he's kind of just done his own thing for years. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, author freedom and all. It could be argued that too much studio interference can be a bad thing - there were certainly some odd moments in Death Masks that felt like WotC reaching in and saying "this should occur because we have this other thing going on over here". Ed actually confirmed that this is exactly what happened in his podcast on the D&D site.
As far as fire giants using a legendary item to capture a primordial to power their own forge, it really doesn't seem like the slap in the face to old realms fans it's being portrayed to be. Maybe I'm missing something, but don't we want them to make use of the existing setting in new and interesting ways? Seems to me that using a fantastic, detailed monster culture (fire giants) to interact with a legendary location within the Realms (Gauntlgrym) through a legendary item (it's not like these things grow on trees!) doesn't seem that bad... it's not like powerful beings causing havoc and dangerous things happening are new to 5e.
Having still not read the adventure it's hard to know what's going on here, but hopefully the event is given some love and detail. Even if not though, a half decent DM could turn that into a campaign all on its lonesome.
YMMV. Each to their own and all, sounds like it could be interesting to me. It is very big-scale, which isn't for everyone.
Edit: If a legendary Iron Flask isn't powerful enough for people, it's not hard to imagine it being empowered by some sort of ancient fire giant rune magic, or to say that it was bathed in a special magic pool in the Elemental Plane of Fire or something. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 16 Sep 2016 07:48:49 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 10:11:56
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Just picked up my copy!
Here's my breakdown of the book's contents. Haven't read through it yet, this is just a page count.
Intro chapter is just about 10 pages, details the major schemes and major players. Followed by a beautiful full colour double page image of two giants fighting which was very welcome.
Chapter 1 is the intro chapter "A Great Upheaval", which is available for free on DM's Guild.
Chapter 2: Rumblings gives full details on Triboar, Bryn Shander, and Goldenfields, with about 20 different locations featured in each town, and each with a great map. It also details relevant quests and goings on. Bryn Shander gets 7 pages to itself, Goldenfields gets 9, and Triboar gets 10. The vast majority of these pages are devoted to fleshing out the towns rather than the adventure. It looks like great stuff - each of these three towns alone has more detail than Loudwater got in the 4e FRCG.
Chapter 3: The Savage Frontier is 58 pages long, and is a mini-campaign setting for the North. The peoples of the North are detailed and random encounters are set out. No less than 165 locations get their own sub-headings here, from Hundlestone to Secomber. The descriptions are short and to the point, and mostly just set out the headlines of the town in a couple of paragraphs. What's happening relevant to the adventure is mentioned at many of the locations: for instance the aims of a pair of cloud giants sitting in the middle of Secomber just listening to the townsfolk talk about their town are detailed. This chapter also includes maps of many of these locations, from Everlund to One Stone. A new double page map of the North is included as well, seemingly based on the Schley SCAG map but with all the other locations added in. It's exciting to see so many locations on an official map that haven't been on an official map for years.
Chapters 4-12 are more adventure orientated, detailing the different giant (and other villain) holds.
The appendixes show linked adventures that can be used in place of Chapter 1, new magic items (including the Wyrmskull Throne, not seen for quite some time), another beautiful two page colour spread, new monsters, new options for giants in combat, and some NPCs.
I know there's a lot of doubt here about this release, but I am genuinely excited to paw through this book properly!
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 16 Sep 2016 10:16:15 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 10:53:40
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| Ed Greenwood was supposed to be the "Realms Traffic Cop" when 5E was announced in 2012... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 10:56:44
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| I can see people buying SKT for chapter 3 alone. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 14:11:58
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| Yep, though I don't usually game in that corner of the realms, I will be buying it for Chapter 3 alone. Now they need to start moving some of these adventures into other areas of the realms and fleshing out those areas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 14:36:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Chapter 2: Rumblings gives full details on Triboar, Bryn Shander, and Goldenfields, with about 20 different locations featured in each town, and each with a great map. It also details relevant quests and goings on. Bryn Shander gets 7 pages to itself, Goldenfields gets 9, and Triboar gets 10. The vast majority of these pages are devoted to fleshing out the towns rather than the adventure. It looks like great stuff - each of these three towns alone has more detail than Loudwater got in the 4e FRCG.
Chapter 3: The Savage Frontier is 58 pages long, and is a mini-campaign setting for the North. The peoples of the North are detailed and random encounters are set out. No less than 165 locations get their own sub-headings here, from Hundlestone to Secomber. The descriptions are short and to the point, and mostly just set out the headlines of the town in a couple of paragraphs. What's happening relevant to the adventure is mentioned at many of the locations: for instance the aims of a pair of cloud giants sitting in the middle of Secomber just listening to the townsfolk talk about their town are detailed. This chapter also includes maps of many of these locations, from Everlund to One Stone. A new double page map of the North is included as well, seemingly based on the Schley SCAG map but with all the other locations added in. It's exciting to see so many locations on an official map that haven't been on an official map for years.
Really nice stuff to hear. I think I may get a copy of the book too, after reading this.
As for the flask and the Primordial, I wouldn't be baffled by it as much as I am, if they used an artifact like the one mentioned by Wooly, or if they made it clear that the flask was greatly empwoered by rune magic (as you proposed), or if the one who did it wasn't just some drow. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 17:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Sorry man, humor is my attempt to cope with the horror of it all.
Had absolutely NOTHING to do with you. I'm talking about the conversation in-general.
People who loved the 'old' Realms greatly dislike most of the changes, thus constant negativity (which is fine - I feel the same way).
People who like the changes have to put up with all that negativity here (which makes me wonder why they even bother).
But really, my comment was aimed more at the lore itself. Its become 'comic bookish', in that every time some new writer gets their hands on the material, they decided to completely ignore the past so that they can shoe-horn in all their 'kewl new ideas'. Both industries (along with so many others, like film) have become a cesspit of 'fan-fiction' made canon. And not the 'good kind'... the bad kind people make fun of. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2016 18:00:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 17:33:13
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| I literally JUST got my copy 2 minutes ago. But something just occurred to me about the iron flask / primordial thing.... and bear in mind I know nothing of the 4e lore regarding neverwinter and some bound primordial..... but what if the primordial WANTED to escape where he was. Could he make this iron flask able to transport himself? I'm thinking maybe.... Maybe it figured wherever it might be brought to would be easier to escape from? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 17:59:10
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| IIRC, Maegera is imprisoned in Gauntlgrym, forced into some kind of slumber through the use of water elementals which costantly flood its chamber. It's also used to power the forge in Gauntlgrym. The last time it was freed, Neverwinter was razed to the ground. I think that it is possible that it wanted to be freed, and purposefully let the flask contain it, in order to break free from the prison. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Sep 2016 18:01:13 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 22:56:35
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That still leaves us with her prison, one of the greatest work of art in all of Faerun, collaboratively crafted from the magic of dragons, giants, arcanists, dwarves, elves and drow, simply being brushed aside by the flask.
Also once in the flask, she is supposed to be delivered to some firegiant king who just happens to have an adamantine forge able to also indefinitely imprissioning her (makes all the elves, dragons, giants, shades, etc. real bad for having to put so much effort in the old prison).
Also once inside the flask she's fully bound by it and even including to obey the holder of the flask for one hour if released.
I frankly wonder if whoever came up with this particular hook knew anything about her beside "some big fire elemental trapped under gauntlgrym - seems like a nice throwaway plot hook" |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 23:01:50
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| Or being pasted out because of the water elementals for over millenia, its pretty weak and vulnerible for a Primordial. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 23:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Or being pasted out because of the water elementals for over millenia, its pretty weak and vulnerible for a Primordial.
Well, it was build over her while she was out from being smote down by a deity, it just prevented her from getting fully back on her feet.
And even that required a miles long arcane apparatus crafted and kept operating by the one of the most powerful magics ever assempled by mortals on Toril |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2016 : 00:20:16
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| My main problem was more along the lines of Salvatore detailing book after book about the primordial, and he finally solved the riddle of the primordial by reestablishing the Drarven Kingdom of Gauntylgrym to always prevent the beast from escaping. And the next thing Wizards does is allow it to escape. I am an only Books guy, no game, so if Salvatore and others are really done in the Realms then I guess I won't have to worry about this again anyway. It just annoys me a bit. |
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So how come no one is discussing SKT?
