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Kryose
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 05:13:30
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So here goes an interesting thought.
Reincarnate the spell, is quite powerful & if you read the fine print its mind-blowing. So I am looking at the Pathfinder Rules spell so that makes it a Druid4/Shaman4/Witch5 spell. So to start not very high level with the ability to effectively bring back a dead party member that has been only "mostly" dead (1 week). So now comes the Die roll but as a DM we can choose what we want. Personally I like to make a reincarnate chart specific to the caster or even the location it is being cast, to more reflect the caster or more prevalent humanoids in the area.
So fast forward to the few parts that make this powerful. "The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age." Kind of a big deal but the more important part of this is, "the magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand."
So not only do you come back from old age, your now a young adult again. Puberty all over again, oh boy!
Now to the last part of all of this wonderful info.
Lets say the resulting spell brings the dead back as a Drow. Sure thats a possibility, why not I say. But, does Lolth, accept that "Drow" now or not? Yes, thats a lot of what-ifs, but its possible & if its for a story then why not?
I'm just looking for some thoughts on this, some feedback.
thx
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 05:29:22
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| Considering that Lolth has tried to get non-drow worshipers, I'd say yes. The question is: why would a non-brainwashed, non-drow reborn as a drow care to follow Lolth instead of their former deities, or a more benevolent/convenient drow deity (and that's assuming they even knew enough about drow gods to care about worshiping any of them)? Lolth is known to treat her followers like dirt, even those who prove capable can be thrown away on a whim. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Aug 2016 05:31:56 |
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Kryose
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 06:14:36
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The why is easy to answer. If we watch TV or the movies, we see this kind of story unfold all the time. If given a choice of life vs death or in this instance of life as a drow or death, the story would end 10 minutes into the show or movie if we were all weak-willed.
Or lets take another look closer to this shall we. While going through firefighting school, you are given tasks that are very dangerous & for some its too much. They were given a choice of burn up & die or continue on, being your #1 hose man, but you don't know until that very moment that you "have" to make that decision. When given the choice of survival, however weird, decrepit, evil or not what you have done in the past, doesn't matter at that point, because if you choose to run, your dead.
Survival is a funny thing & dealing with those decisions afterwards is sometimes harder than the actual act. Living a lie is not uncommon, let alone regret for choices made in ones past.
So I ask you, if you were found by a group of drow, would you run or try to "fit in"?
Sure, its a stretch, but for the sake of a story, why not. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 06:28:35
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| With knowledge of drow? Yes, I'd rather avoid them, unless I somehow knew they were followers of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. Knowing that there are other choices, and there are, who would accept to live in a society where 1)you're likely to get murdered or involved in some nonsensical backstabbing game 2)you'd be forced to bend to the random whims of a goddess and her priestesses who care about nothing but dominating other people, or inflicting pain for the lulz 3)you'd be forced to live underground, with spiders being more valuable than your life. To outsiders, Lolthite society is frankly ridiculous and self destructive. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Aug 2016 06:29:41 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 18:00:22
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Reincarnation is ridiculously owerpowered spell indeed. The change of species was probably meant as disadvantage against other options but is is really not. Druids are globaly quite powerful and their neutral alignment restrictions have so many shades of gray that it is almost nonexistant. I usualy pretend the reincarnation spell do not exist or make some more components to its casting.
As to the Lloth I do not know that she accepts other races as believers as it do not sounds right but in novels anything is possible... If I were reincarnated as a drow I would not push my luck by anouncing this heresy to Lloth by praying to her unless in dire need. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 18:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Reincarnation is ridiculously owerpowered spell indeed. The change of species was probably meant as disadvantage against other options but is is really not.
Actually, it was a disadvantage back in the day -- it was quite possible, in earlier editions of D&D, to reincarnate as an animal that didn't have classes, or to reincarnate as a race that could take classes, but had racial restrictions preventing that class/race combo.
And with the approach of earlier editions to priests having very specific spell lists based on their deity, it would be possible to have a priest that could reincarnate someone but could not do any other form of returning them to life. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 22:30:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
To outsiders, Lolthite society is frankly ridiculous and self destructive.
As well as half of the rest (starting with surface elves).
And just like with any other, those who would join either think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, or don't pay much attention to the disadvantages at all.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2016 : 23:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
With knowledge of drow? Yes, I'd rather avoid them, unless I somehow knew they were followers of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. Knowing that there are other choices, and there are, who would accept to live in a society where 1)you're likely to get murdered or involved in some nonsensical backstabbing game 2)you'd be forced to bend to the random whims of a goddess and her priestesses who care about nothing but dominating other people, or inflicting pain for the lulz 3)you'd be forced to live underground, with spiders being more valuable than your life. To outsiders, Lolthite society is frankly ridiculous and self destructive.
It actualy sounds a lot like common high politics of real world and who would like to do that right? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 00:15:48
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Come on, really? First off, no, I wouldn't like to be involved in any kind of backstabbing political game that might hypotethically exist (especially not one that involves destroying lives). I also don't think that the majority of people would really like to do politics. Otherwise, you'd see many more people trying to run for it.
Second, Lolthite society is extreme. I don't think we need to discuss how absurd it is (and how unlikely it is for someone who knows how it works to choose it, when they know there's another choice). Other societies are definitely not perfect, they might even be bad, but living by bending to Lolth's rules means living by embracing some random edgy nonsense about how love and other good feelings are ''weakness'', how the only way of life consists of killing people to gain worth, and how you are just meat for Lolth (yes this is part of their thinking). You wouldn't even be able to speak freely. Heck, her kind of society is explicitly said to be detrimental to the drow even in the books that describe it. That simply can't be compared to our society/politics, no matter how bad they might be. If you really want to compare it with our society, the Lolthite's lifestyle would be more like a dystopian, exaggerated caricature of ours. Again, not something you'd choose to embrace, when you have a choice (and you would def. have it as a reincarnated drow). Especially if you're a male, and if you don't have any incredible talent, magic, or whatever, like those shown in the novels.
It's not even about being ambitious. Not even ''evil'', entirely self-interested people would find it convenient. Why submit yourself to such nonsensical rules (and then be thrown away like a broken toy on a whim of Lolth or her priestesses) when you could run in your race for power elsewhere, if you so much want it. You would even end up ruling on something better than some decorated underground cavern. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Aug 2016 00:30:35 |
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Kryose
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 04:55:20
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I find it interesting that you think death is the better option than trying to live life as a Drow in a Drow society. Maybe you should watch the movie Shawshank & get an idea of what I speak of. He didn't care what he had to do, but all he wanted was to get out & how, by hanging onto hope. Andy did what he had to; male rape, helping the guards, using what he knew, to help those who only wanted to be corrupt, yet he did not because he was evil, but because he had hope of freedom.
You speak as if its canon among every person, know Drow society & how Lolth treats her people, but they don't, not in the world of fantasy. I'm sorry but most people are probably oblivious to what happens in the Underdark except for a few sordid stories to scare the children.
You are taking what you know, through the books you have read & are using that as the opinion of everyone in your game, sorry but that is more unbelievable than what I present.
What I challenge you to do is convince that this could happen. Argue the point from the other side. I think you may surprise yourself.  |
Edited by - Kryose on 10 Aug 2016 04:56:36 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 05:11:00
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| If you read my post, I said what my choice would be motivated by my opinion on the drow formed with knowledge of them. Even w/o it, drow are known to be sadistic murderers, and I'd still avoid them (even more so since I could find myself forced to randomly kill people if I chose otherwise). You talk about choosing Lolth or death, as if there weren't any alternatives, but why is that the case? Unless you're made prisoner, you do have choices. And if you're made prisoner by drow, then you might as well try to run for your life (or fight, if you can). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Aug 2016 05:14:40 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 21:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Come on, really? First off, no, I wouldn't like to be involved in any kind of backstabbing political game that might hypotethically exist (especially not one that involves destroying lives). I also don't think that the majority of people would really like to do politics. Otherwise, you'd see many more people trying to run for it.
Second, Lolthite society is extreme. I don't think we need to discuss how absurd it is (and how unlikely it is for someone who knows how it works to choose it, when they know there's another choice). Other societies are definitely not perfect, they might even be bad, but living by bending to Lolth's rules means living by embracing some random edgy nonsense about how love and other good feelings are ''weakness'', how the only way of life consists of killing people to gain worth, and how you are just meat for Lolth (yes this is part of their thinking). You wouldn't even be able to speak freely. Heck, her kind of society is explicitly said to be detrimental to the drow even in the books that describe it. That simply can't be compared to our society/politics, no matter how bad they might be. If you really want to compare it with our society, the Lolthite's lifestyle would be more like a dystopian, exaggerated caricature of ours. Again, not something you'd choose to embrace, when you have a choice (and you would def. have it as a reincarnated drow). Especially if you're a male, and if you don't have any incredible talent, magic, or whatever, like those shown in the novels.
It's not even about being ambitious. Not even ''evil'', entirely self-interested people would find it convenient. Why submit yourself to such nonsensical rules (and then be thrown away like a broken toy on a whim of Lolth or her priestesses) when you could run in your race for power elsewhere, if you so much want it. You would even end up ruling on something better than some decorated underground cavern.
It was not meant against you and if I upset you I am sorry.
Even Drizzt was afraid to leave the city alone and almost got crazy from that experience. Even in recent history common people did not move from the one city or it's neabouring villages for entire life.
This absurd distopian society is hugely based on real ones like Roman Empires (Nero), religious practices of south american indians or holy church during crusades. So it is not so far fetched that somebody would live in it willingly.
To the original topic - if you get reincarnated from human to drow you not only get your youth back but also a few centuries of lifespan on top :-) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 21:59:00
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No, you didn't upset me, no worries  I was just surprised by the comparison between Lolthite society and ours.
Drow society might draw upon those you listed, but it exaggerates them to an extreme. I'm not aware of any society in which you are flat out told that love is for the weak, where parents don't give a flying about (and even regularly hate) their kids, where the concept of family, friendship, joy (that is not due to inflicting pain to others, or climbing to the top of a hill made up of the corpses of your rivals) are considered taboo, and other nonsense like that and the stuff which I mentioned before. Even ambitious people would likely choose something else (especially something that doesn't involve living in a hole underground, with very limited resources, among the other things).
Also, even assuming that such a society could exist, I was under the impression that we were not talking about people born in such a society, but people who have an entirely different, non brainwashed mindset, that would willingly choose to associate with known murderers and sadists and to follow them, when it would be obvious to them that there are better choices (and when new choices might even come to them--Eilistraee likes to send visons and dreams to drow to make them know that there's another kind of life, for example. And on the surface it is much more likely to meet drow that aren't Lolthites). That's why I think that it's very unlikely. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Aug 2016 22:29:47 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 22:53:14
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I would say that it is much more likely to be killed by other surface dwellers who might kill you just out of fear about their family and joy...especialy surface elves would not even bother to ask you.
I agree that the drow society is a little utopian in the form as it would not work much outside magical fantasy setting. However the drow do care about their families, kids and they also enjoy themselves. Actualy drow society is based on family clans led by the mother of the family and usualy quite extended families for elves.
It seems to me you have demonized the poor drows based upon surface elven propaganda :-p Give them the little slack and look at worshippers of Loviatar or Bane for a change as they are similarily focused on evil as Lloth ( I hate the Lol... version) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 23:01:14
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Uhm, Lolthite drow absolutely don't care for their families (except for the bare survival of their line/species, but it's not affection, at all. It's mostly caring about the house as institution and symbol of their status). Mothers sacrifice their children, kids kill their parents (and vice versa--especially among nobles), drow women kill their lovers for fun, and stuff like that, regularly. Love, affection and friendship literally are taboo among them. Even joyous activites are often polluted by their rivalries, and their main source of "joy" indeed is triumphing on their rivals. It's all over the place in novels and sourcebooks. That's why Lolth is extreme if compared to Bane or others. Her dogma is utterly self destructive to follow, and aimed to make the drow her toys and slaves, as she tries to dominate every single aspect of their lives.
Now commoners ("free" drow) might be different, but their existence definitely isn't something nice to experience either. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Aug 2016 23:23:07 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 23:12:17
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As for being killed by surfacers, yes that's a very real problem as well. If you get reincarnated as a drow, you're basically SOL if left alone and with little knowledge of the drow world, unless you're a caster who can alter their looks (or unless you are found by surface drow, or Eilistraee lightens a path to safety for you--she is known to do that--or something along those lines).
However, there's also the fact that the druid who cast the spell isn't likely to leave you on your own (I mean, I don't think that they randomly happen upon a corpse and decide ''hey, why don't I reincarnate this guy''), so you should have the possibility to consider the various choices that you can make. In that case, personally, the first that I'd do would be asking them for help in finding my former friends, family, and so on.
And if the druid (or whatever) that cast the spell on you was ill intentioned, you'd be in troubles anyway. Say that a drow raiding group happened to kill that druid, I'd still try to run, since general knowledge of the drow that everyone in the Realms has would tell me that they're still sadistic killers, and I'd be likely to think that they'd treat me as a prisoner (if human raiders do that with other humans, I'd think that drow would only do worse). So yeah, I still think that it's very unlikely for someone to willingly follow Lolthite drow in their underground cities. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Aug 2016 23:35:19 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 23:40:27
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I would say that affection and family ties are deffinitely there but very early in life you learn that trust is dangerous. That is why I likened it to politics but it is all over their life. I see it as the way Lloth promote her chaotic part of alignment domain.
children sacrifice was a common theme in important rituals around the globe, kids murder their noble parents over title all the time and women "kill" (dump) their lovers for fun to these days. If you knew that any attachment you openly embrace is a way to blackmail you (or worse) you would also keep them secret.
I found it fascinating how animalisticly effective drow actualy are. They reproduce much more than other elves and keep killing "the weak ones". In so they maintain a steady population of highly trained and capable individuals that can supplant each other in an instant. That is actualy almost only way to do that... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2016 : 23:57:58
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They are definitely there at the beginning, but they're switfly snuffed by their society and by Lolth, through threats, brainwashing, violence etc. Drow mothers who follow Lolth hardly show love to their kids. That's why I said that the Lolthite *society* is absurd, not the drow themselves. There are other drow cultures and faiths that are far more reasonable than that, and that embrace love, cooperation and other aspects of life that the Lolthite society denies (and those were the cultures which led to the foundation of prosperous kingdoms like Miyeritar and Ilythiir--where the faiths of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were dominant, and where Lolth wasn't even relevant until around the 2nd crown war).
I don't know which religion you're talking about, but when I look at a culture in which children are regularly sacrificed as if it was perfectly normal, and where killing other family memebers is also seen as normal, I would hardly say that that culture cares about family (on a side note, dumping someone can't be really compared to killing them. And I wasn't aware of a trend of dumping people for fun, tbh).
The ''kill the weak'' thing doesn't work. It's far less efficient than cooperation. That's the reason why drow have withered and stagnated for so long, forced to live in scattered caverns underground, and why it is explictly said in at least 1 FR book (written by Ed) that Lolth and this lifestyle have only limited the drow. It has only made them weaker as a whole. The ability to destroy your rivals is only a measure of raw cunning/strength, but intelligence and potential manifest in so many other forms (we have many examples in our world), and those are often more defining of the strength of a culture/society than raw strength/cunning is.
Talent, innovation, progress are generated by sharing ideas and working together, not by focusing on killing your rivals and squandering your potential in such trivial matters. In a Lolthite society all those things simply don't exist, the way they think only limits their potential and strength. And it is the only reason why Lolth can keep them to their leash, or why she forbids free speaking and diffusion of new ideas. If the drow were to open their eyes, they would most likely leave her nonsense behind (and tbh, it's what should have happened in 10k years of history, with factions and deities actively working to inject such ideas in their society, if Lolth and her drow weren't D&D villains). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Aug 2016 20:10:57 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 18:49:20
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| Death in the Realms isn't too bad, unless you end up in the realm of some evil deity who punishes the souls of their followers...like Lolth. If I was dead in the Realms, and if I was in, say...Brightwater? Yeah, I think I'll stay dead, thanks, if reincarnation meant being a drow in a Lolthite society. Now, if I was reborn as a drow and had a chance to find either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, then I'd think about it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 22:43:04
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Noble families have commonly raised their childern through nanies and tutors and mostly high nobility kept distance seeing them only ocassionaly.
Basic meaning of sacrifice is to give something precious to you and this is why family members and children were on the top. Almost all europian cultures did those long ago (before Rome popularized christianity).
I do agree that cooperation is much better way for progress. Question is where do you want to progress to in fantasy setting. You have divine magic (there goes technology), you have active religion (there goes philosophy) and you have Elminster (there goes your hopes). Also even those drow do cooperate on mutualy beneficial goals and even on some city-wide goals (like arcane magic schools, fighters schools, ...).
Generaly said a lot of authors arey trying to depict drows as bad, ugly spiderkissers but the most of actual information about their life and society isn't so dark and evil if you think about it. Biggest revelation for me was when I realized what is Lloth's actual goal. It is not a world domination as one might think but keeping the drow strong with strife and chaos and revenge on surface elves. She do not want to rule on surface and even her drows to live there again. She just want Corellion and all his devout (;-p) elves gone for banishing her to Abyss. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 22:45:19
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| I think that I have perhaps misunderstood the question. Does the scenario consist of being reincaranted as a drow, and then meeting a group of Lolthities, or of being directly confronted with the choice a corpse and tried to reincarnate it? In the latter case, I can see some cases in which someone would willingly accept it. For example, someone whose soul was snatched by demons or devils, or who got some hellish aferlife. In that case, they would choose the lesser between two evils (and Lolth would certainly demand their total submission, as she does with all drow, and as she would do with every existing creature, if she could). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Aug 2016 22:47:00 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 22:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Death in the Realms isn't too bad, unless you end up in the realm of some evil deity who punishes the souls of their followers...like Lolth. If I was dead in the Realms, and if I was in, say...Brightwater? Yeah, I think I'll stay dead, thanks, if reincarnation meant being a drow in a Lolthite society. Now, if I was reborn as a drow and had a chance to find either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, then I'd think about it.
You still keep that idea of christian hell where those evil are poked into by laughing imps in the Realms? Evil dieties collect evil souls and they keep doing evil things even as petitioners (or devils/demons) in afterlife. Why should they be a victims of their patrons domains after life of devoutely spreading them to others as their patron wishes? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2016 : 23:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Noble families have commonly raised their childern through nanies and tutors and mostly high nobility kept distance seeing them only ocassionaly.
Basic meaning of sacrifice is to give something precious to you and this is why family members and children were on the top. Almost all europian cultures did those long ago (before Rome popularized christianity).
The point still stands that cultures that sacrifice children on a regular basis aren't exactly regarded as family-centered (or as cultures that value family). And what I said about drow mothers isn't only limited to nobles. On top of that, there's also the fact that love and affection are considered weaknesses among the drow, so as I've already said, family as we mean it definitely isn't a value for them, and drow houses are important because they are symbols of status and power.
Besides, I still don't know which cultures regularly sacrificed children. EDIT: I've found some really ugly stuff (although there's nothing about early european cultures sacrificing children, except this http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Ver_Sacrum.html, and it wasn't a regular thing).
quote:
I do agree that cooperation is much better way for progress. Question is where do you want to progress to in fantasy setting. You have divine magic (there goes technology), you have active religion (there goes philosophy) and you have Elminster . (there goes your hopes).
Magic still leaves a lot of rooms open for progress. It's a common trope for fantasy settings to have things like mage-philosopher/scientists who constantly expand their understanding of how magic works, or who develop new ways to shape the world and its rules, or to make magic more widespread and easily accessible (thus becoming some kind of ''tech''), and so on. The presence of magic doesn't mean that there's nothing to understand and study in that world, or that it can't develop. A world where development is impossible would be a very boring place to read about.
That said, think about what drow spellcasters would do if they focused on developing their art and shared ideas for that purpose, instead of focusing on killing each other. Besides, actual ''tech'' is still useful when magic isn't accessible to the majority of people.
quote:
Also even those drow do cooperate on mutualy beneficial goals and even on some city-wide goals (like arcane magic schools, fighters schools, ...).
I wouldn't call their schools ''cooperation'', when they encourage children to kill each other, instead of teaming up to solve problems :/ . The drow can only be brought to loosely cooperate when some big life ending threat is in sight. Even in wars, they try to kill their rivals. The only Lolthite drow who can actually cooperate are those that distance themselves from the basis of their society (like Jarlaxle and his band, who are still ruthless people who pursue power and their own profit above everything else, but don't like internal strife in their organization, unlike drow houses).
quote:
Generaly said a lot of authors arey trying to depict drows as bad, ugly spiderkissers but the most of actual information about their life and society isn't so dark and evil if you think about it. Biggest revelation for me was when I realized what is Lloth's actual goal. It is not a world domination as one might think but keeping the drow strong with strife and chaos and revenge on surface elves. She do not want to rule on surface and even her drows to live there again. She just want Corellion and all his devout (;-p) elves gone for banishing her to Abyss.
How it isn't so dark. These guys basically grow up without knowing what love and the likes are, while thinking that the world is entirely their enemy, that the only way to live literally is to kill other people before they kill you, while being told that they matter nothing to anyone, except for their power and for how much they please Lolth. And males get 2x that crap.
Besides, Lolth doesn't keep the drow strong. Lolth has severely limited their development, preventing them from achieving anything meaningful, for the reasons that I listed before. As I've already said, they would have achieved much more if Lolth encouraged cooperation and mutual protection, while also encouraging her revenge against the elves who cast the down. 2e TDotU essentially says that the drow would rule the Underdark, it if wasn't for Lolth. She purposefully keeps them that way, because development and understanding would most likely lead a lot of drow to give her the middle fingers. That's the very reason for the extremely tight censorship imposed by her society.
Plus her goal is indeed world domination (she has 2 ''goals'' for the drow: 1-conquer the underdark 2-kill all the elves and conquer the surface). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Aug 2016 23:38:06 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 00:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Death in the Realms isn't too bad, unless you end up in the realm of some evil deity who punishes the souls of their followers...like Lolth. If I was dead in the Realms, and if I was in, say...Brightwater? Yeah, I think I'll stay dead, thanks, if reincarnation meant being a drow in a Lolthite society. Now, if I was reborn as a drow and had a chance to find either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, then I'd think about it.
You still keep that idea of christian hell where those evil are poked into by laughing imps in the Realms? Evil dieties collect evil souls and they keep doing evil things even as petitioners (or devils/demons) in afterlife. Why should they be a victims of their patrons domains after life of devoutely spreading them to others as their patron wishes?
I am not keeping the idea of a christian hell. The Realms is very different. Heck, the Hells themselves are different. Not all evil deities torment their petitioners. Vhaeraun and Mask do not, for example. Life (or afterlife) for their petitioners isn't so bad. Yes, evil deities will have their petitioners do evil things, and service them in one form or another. I agree with you. But I believe deities such as Lolth have been known to torture, at least that was the impression I got from books like Empyrean Odyssey. I admit I could be wrong, and I'm not saying Lolth tortures *all* her followers, and some she will reward, like any deity, otherwise the priestesses wouldn't strive so hard for her favor. I wasn't trying to suggest she torments every soul that comes into her Realm, but she is not a nice deity.
My point was that, if the soul was in a place like Brightwater, why would they want to be reincarnated as a drow in a Lolthite society, and risk the implications of that? If they had a chance to meet followers of Vhearaun and Eilistraee, then maybe. I guess it would depend on the circumstances.
Drow are interesting. I like them, and their society is an intricate web (pun intended). I've always been intrigued by them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Aug 2016 00:38:13 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 13:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I am not keeping the idea of a christian hell. The Realms is very different. Heck, the Hells themselves are different. Not all evil deities torment their petitioners. Vhaeraun and Mask do not, for example. Life (or afterlife) for their petitioners isn't so bad. Yes, evil deities will have their petitioners do evil things, and service them in one form or another. I agree with you. But I believe deities such as Lolth have been known to torture, at least that was the impression I got from books like Empyrean Odyssey. I admit I could be wrong, and I'm not saying Lolth tortures *all* her followers, and some she will reward, like any deity, otherwise the priestesses wouldn't strive so hard for her favor. I wasn't trying to suggest she torments every soul that comes into her Realm, but she is not a nice deity.
My point was that, if the soul was in a place like Brightwater, why would they want to be reincarnated as a drow in a Lolthite society, and risk the implications of that? If they had a chance to meet followers of Vhearaun and Eilistraee, then maybe. I guess it would depend on the circumstances.
Drow are interesting. I like them, and their society is an intricate web (pun intended). I've always been intrigued by them.
I do not regard novels as part of canon unless they have information about some place/culture/... as they work differently then sourcebooks (first time you use fireball it is cool. next time you need something bigger) and tend to get out of hand due to plot reasons.
So I do not know why Lloth tortured those souls and do not care much. There might be a good reason for it like that diety can sqeeze a soul for it's power if needed and that could have a form of torture for Lloth.
As I see it if you die your soul arrives to your gods domain and you become petitioner and slowly declines into oblivion in your prefered form of heaven. Why should anybody who arrived there want back to life? There might be some crazy guys who really want revenge but they usualy stay as ghosts instead of leaving the mortal world in the first place.
There is a rule that soul somehow know who is summoning it back and might wish to not return in this case but it sounds to me more like protection for player's favored character to not be abused by necromancers and such. It actualy make more sense that divine spells have actualy the necessary power to forcibly remove the soul from it's planar home and bring it back to its former body. The same goes for powerful necromantic rituals to awaken wrights and specters of long dead. You can also summon the soul by summoning spells to question it. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 14:07:42
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Actually most animated undead and ghost have no soul but an echo of it, an animus. It contains fragments of its souls memory, but is usually altered by the negative (or necrotic) energy fueling the animus' presence.
As for reincarnation, aye the body of the dead person comes back as a drow, but it still houses the original racial soul of the dead individual, so for Lolth it doesn't matter much, the soul isn't elven. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 14:22:17
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| Lolth has tried to get non-drow/elf followers in the past, tho, like when she posed as Moander. I think that she would take any soul (plus, in 3e PGtF it is said that petitioners take an extremely distorted shape vaguely resembling a drow, even if they weren't drow. So it follows that Lolth also takes non drow). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 17:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I am not keeping the idea of a christian hell. The Realms is very different. Heck, the Hells themselves are different. Not all evil deities torment their petitioners. Vhaeraun and Mask do not, for example. Life (or afterlife) for their petitioners isn't so bad. Yes, evil deities will have their petitioners do evil things, and service them in one form or another. I agree with you. But I believe deities such as Lolth have been known to torture, at least that was the impression I got from books like Empyrean Odyssey. I admit I could be wrong, and I'm not saying Lolth tortures *all* her followers, and some she will reward, like any deity, otherwise the priestesses wouldn't strive so hard for her favor. I wasn't trying to suggest she torments every soul that comes into her Realm, but she is not a nice deity.
My point was that, if the soul was in a place like Brightwater, why would they want to be reincarnated as a drow in a Lolthite society, and risk the implications of that? If they had a chance to meet followers of Vhearaun and Eilistraee, then maybe. I guess it would depend on the circumstances.
Drow are interesting. I like them, and their society is an intricate web (pun intended). I've always been intrigued by them.
I do not regard novels as part of canon unless they have information about some place/culture/... as they work differently then sourcebooks (first time you use fireball it is cool. next time you need something bigger) and tend to get out of hand due to plot reasons.
So I do not know why Lloth tortured those souls and do not care much. There might be a good reason for it like that diety can sqeeze a soul for it's power if needed and that could have a form of torture for Lloth.
As I see it if you die your soul arrives to your gods domain and you become petitioner and slowly declines into oblivion in your prefered form of heaven. Why should anybody who arrived there want back to life? There might be some crazy guys who really want revenge but they usualy stay as ghosts instead of leaving the mortal world in the first place.
There is a rule that soul somehow know who is summoning it back and might wish to not return in this case but it sounds to me more like protection for player's favored character to not be abused by necromancers and such. It actualy make more sense that divine spells have actualy the necessary power to forcibly remove the soul from it's planar home and bring it back to its former body. The same goes for powerful necromantic rituals to awaken wrights and specters of long dead. You can also summon the soul by summoning spells to question it.
The novels (for the most part) are seen as canon, though there are inconsistencies and inaccuracies. I don't think it was Lolth herself, but some Abyssal denizen. As I said, Lolth likely wouldn't torture all her followers, but I wouldn't put it passed her (or her lackeys) to do it from time to time.
But yes, I see it as a soul going to their god's realm, and as I said, if your soul was in a place like Brightwater, why would you want to be returned as a drow, unless you had a chance to be an Eilistraeen or a Vhaeraunite? Some souls have been successfully resurrected (Starbow), because they have some deep regrets or something. But 5e seems to be cutting back on the rezing abilities, though maybe it is a little different with Pathfinder. I am not too familiar with the rules of that setting. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Aug 2016 17:23:13 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 18:23:15
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"not Lloth but some Abyssal denizen" that is about any demon there and they sure do like to torture anybody they came upon (or eat it depends on the whim).
Brightwater soul - that is what I have wrote about in my version you cannot choose to stay as divine magic of the priest will bring you back anyway (as sensible explanation). If we continue your version than even evil drow have no reason to return...
(newer editions seems to be cutting on everything imho) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 18:29:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
"not Lloth but some Abyssal denizen" that is about any demon there and they sure do like to torture anybody they came upon (or eat it depends on the whim).
Lolth is described as surrounded by a choir of agonizing voices of the souls of her drow in some novels (Windwalker comes to mind). But if you don't consider novels, then it probably has no relevance to you. In any case, being in a place where you coexist with demons that are free to torture you sounds ugly.
quote:
Brightwater soul - that is what I have wrote about in my version you cannot choose to stay as divine magic of the priest will bring you back anyway (as sensible explanation). If we continue your version than even evil drow have no reason to return...
The deity can deny the resurrection, tho. Reincarnation gives you a choice. About the Lolthite drow, 3e PGtF describes their afterlife as an extreme version of their life, and on top of that they take some distorted form resembling a drow. I think that they'd have a couple reasons to choose to return. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Aug 2016 19:07:19 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2016 : 19:01:06
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^This :)
I was using Brightwater as an example, since it is home to benevolent deities, and thus petitioners can expect a good afterlife. And "my version" is what my understanding of canon is. Drow petitioners who are in Lolth's realm would likely want to return, either via resurrection of reincarnation (though Ryld refused) if given the chance, because Lolth's realm is host to many unsavory creatures. Not my idea of a good time. So, if you're a petitioner in the realm of Brightwater or some other benevolent realm, why would you want to be reincarnated as a drow in a Lolthite society, unless (as I have said) you get a chance to be an Eilistraeen or a Vhaeraunite? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Aug 2016 20:19:54 |
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Reincarnate & Lolth
