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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 12:55:07
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Okay. My aim with the wiki is to suggest the simplest, most mundane resolutions to conflicts – anything more is up the fans.
It strikes me that The Shining South might be operating off the old designers' belief that the Utter East is in fact Kara-Tur. Many old sources called Kara-Tur "the Utter East" (not unreasonably) before it settled in the furthest south-east. So author Tom Prusa might have thought he was referring to the Tuigan Horde, not realising there were whopping great mountains in the way. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 18:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Okay. My aim with the wiki is to suggest the simplest, most mundane resolutions to conflicts – anything more is up the fans.
It strikes me that The Shining South might be operating off the old designers' belief that the Utter East is in fact Kara-Tur. Many old sources called Kara-Tur "the Utter East" (not unreasonably) before it settled in the furthest south-east. So author Tom Prusa might have thought he was referring to the Tuigan Horde, not realising there were whopping great mountains in the way.
Makes sense. I have been wondering what people in Kara-Tur and Zakhara call "the Utter East"?
Maybe just The Five Kingdoms? Or something more evocative? Lands of Blood and Magic?
EDIT: I'm thinking to Kara-Turans the Utter East is known as The Land Beyond the Mountains (Shan Wài de Tudi), while to Zakharans it is known as The Bleeding Coast (Al-Sahil Nazif). |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 08 Jul 2016 20:53:44 |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 06:53:20
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| Do the symbols on the barbarian's horse in this picture ( http://i.imgur.com/rIPCEC2.png ) mean anything in terms of FR lore? Or are they just random? |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 10:43:44
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I imagine artistic license / say what you like. They're probably local brands or clan symbols. The one on the front looks like a hand; it could just be a bloody handprint left in the battle, but one might say the clan symbol is a hand. Alternatively, lots of FR gods have hand symbols: Torm, Helm, Bane, depending on orientation and pose.
I still like the idea of them being land vikings, if only because I'd give them longships on wheels or sleds propelled by wind or dragged along by oars.  |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 14:55:56
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| I tried to detail the unnamed barbarian lands for the Wiki. A bit nebulous, but it covers all the points I could find. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 21:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I imagine artistic license / say what you like. They're probably local brands or clan symbols. The one on the front looks like a hand; it could just be a bloody handprint left in the battle, but one might say the clan symbol is a hand. Alternatively, lots of FR gods have hand symbols: Torm, Helm, Bane, depending on orientation and pose.
I still like the idea of them being land vikings, if only because I'd give them longships on wheels or sleds propelled by wind or dragged along by oars.
Genius. That reminds me of Viking Bobsledding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkdFMUgyZWM |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 21:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I tried to detail the unnamed barbarian lands for the Wiki. A bit nebulous, but it covers all the points I could find.
Thanks!
Actually, when I followed that link I hit a page that said: The page "Barbarian lands Utter East" does not exist yet. You can start writing it by clicking the button below.
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2016 : 00:58:00
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Huh. For some reason, Candlekeep links strip out the brackets. In any case, the wiki should suggest the correct link. But try this:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian_lands_(Utter_East)
Okay, just copy and paste that link.
Candlekeep's web design is like 120 years old. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 10 Jul 2016 00:59:10 |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2016 : 03:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Huh. For some reason, Candlekeep links strip out the brackets. In any case, the wiki should suggest the correct link. But try this:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian_lands_(Utter_East)
Okay, just copy and paste that link.
Candlekeep's web design is like 120 years old.
Oh, a lot of older sites do that. Planewalker and Dragonsfoot too. I should have realized.
Nice work again, mate  I hope others appreciate your notation at the bottom as much as I do.
THE BARBARIANS
I'm going to do some informed conjecture. I realized that these Ulgarth-based barbarians would be living at the base of the A-Ling Shan and possibly Kun-Yen Shan mountains. So maybe that can shed some additional light on their culture...
The A-Ling Shan feature lakes formed by melting glacial water trapped behind dikes of earth that present a constant risk of flash flood to the people who dwell below. Additionally, yetis and wingless Kara-Tur dragons raid the surrounding lowlands for food (aka man-flesh).
The Kun-Yen Shan feature a jumble of ranges and glacier-filled massifs with isolated green valleys hidden from the outside world. While most of these valleys are unpopulated, the deepest have animal populations (deer, monkeys, leopards, tigers) and intrepid human inhabitants who've settled far from "bothersome" civilization.
I'm getting a picture of barbaric influences on Ulgarth society being forced to the fringes, metaphorically and geographically. When Northmen and Ffolk invaders conquered the Five Kingdoms, they hadn't left their own fighting behind them, and a large group of Northmen broke off (this may or may not have any connection to the Fallen Temple). These Northmen had basically two directions to go – south (into what Markus named the Barbarian Marches) or north (to the base of the A-Ling Shan and Kun-Yen Shan).
If they went north, they'd meet up with the barbaric remnant from Ulgarth's past, either fighting one another or integrating their tribes. Given the art from FR 16 The Shining South ( http://i.imgur.com/rIPCEC2.png ) depicting a Viking-esque barbarian with a blond/white beard, that suggests integration.
If they went south, they'd end up south of Konigheim. And some of them would break off to establish the Meadhall of the Northmen. These barbarians would be more influenced by the cultures of Zakhara than those in Ulgarth, and would likely have contact with the yakfolk.
OK, some cultural details that emerge from all this...
South Asian Vikings. I *think* what this suggests is that even though there are two groups of barbarians in the Utter East, they have intermixed cultures (Northmen + "South Asian"?).
Transhumance. I'd further guess that, given the terrain, they practice transhumance bringing livestock to the lowlands in summer / spring and returning to their glacial valley homes in winter / fall. If they can host a horde 1,000 strong (according to FR 16 The Shining South) that suggests their migrations would be large-scale and watched carefully by Ulgarth and the Five Kingdoms.
Five Kingdoms? There's also no mention I've found of barbarians threatening the Five Kingdoms, whereas it's clear they threaten Ulgarth. This suggests they either have an understanding to live-and-let-live-apart with rulers of the Five Kingdoms (Konigheim in particular, due to its location), or they are traversing the Five Kingdoms regularly.
Storm Gods/Demons. They'd have a healthy fear of storms and the flash floods those bring – and that would probably be reflected in their religion, appeasing a Thor-type figure that might be equated with South Asian storm demons.
Reincarnated Glory. There'd be a blending of the concepts of Valhalla and reincarnation; so perhaps they believe the more glory one obtains in this life the more carries on to one's next life, making them especially fearless in battle.
Mingari for Battle. Perhaps they extract psychoactive substances from the mingari spice inducing stimulation and hallucination similar to the Viking's battle tea. Studies have found spices like cinnamon, fennel, dill, saffron, and anise to contain mild psychoactive substances chemically similar to myristicin, so it's not an unreasonable leap.
Never Trust the Ffolk. They'd have a distrust of the Ffolk, their ancestors having told tales of the Ffolk betraying the Northmen and hedging them out of rulership and land governance.
Yeti Cloaks and Teeth. And they'd probably treat yetis as a sort of cultural enemy, with yeti teeth valued by shamans, and yeti fur cloaks worn by their chieftains as a sign of prowess.
Hiding from Griffons. The ones who live in Ulgarth – which definitely has griffons in the Galuil Mountains – would probably hate griffons for attacking their prized horses. These horses I'm picturing stockier than the Dambraii mounts favored in Ulgarth, more like steppes draft horses in build. Perhaps the barbarians have devised a way of moving through griffon territory safely...either masking their horses with a scent or covering them in feather regalia to fool griffons. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 10 Jul 2016 03:50:19 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2016 : 02:56:32
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If the barbarians are Northmen, then they could have been the group led by Rathgar the Raider when they invaded Doegan, but that's very early in Utter East's history. The Bloodforge Wars took place only 27 years after the Ffolk and Northmen's arrival, one generation, not really enough time to become plains barbarians. Hence I placed the invasion and presumed settlement of Doegan in the Western Colonization era of Utter Eastern history, though it's very late. That implies Doegan was originally a Mar (or possibly already Ffolk-claimed) kingdom, though Aelric himself has a clearly Northman name, so there's possibly already some mixing of the races.
I love the Valhalla with Reincarnation concept. "I live, I die, I live again!"
I finished detailing the Howl of Vengeance campaign for the Forgotten Realms Wiki, from Doegan to the mysterious Old Stone Keep, with all the principle figures and artwork. Aelric the Avenger is just awesome. Anyway, I've finished working on the Utter East for now.
BTW, It's not Forgotten Realms, but I'm currently read The Drowning City by Amanda Downum. A necromancer and spy (the heroine!) comes to foment revolution in a subtropical Venice-like city with a South-East Asian flavour. Under the rising floodwaters of monsoon season, a rival revolutionary group is using aquatic undead, spirits, and ghosts as an army and a terrorist weapon. It makes me think so much of Doegan in the Utter East.
Also BTW, Scott Bennie, the author of the Old Empires sourcebook released a PDF of his unpublished work and homebrew development, available here. It mostly covers the Old Empires, but the end has some development for the Utter East, with the city of Addercurse, the mutant barbarians of the Tanray, sand golems that could be basal golems, the lost city of Assunesta, and two pantheons of local gods. It's non-canon and very different and unrelated to the other versions of the Utter East, but it might be worth a look. (We discussed this a bit in the old thread.) |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2016 : 07:37:52
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
If the barbarians are Northmen, then they could have been the group led by Rathgar the Raider when they invaded Doegan, but that's very early in Utter East's history. The Bloodforge Wars took place only 27 years after the Ffolk and Northmen's arrival, one generation, not really enough time to become plains barbarians. Hence I placed the invasion and presumed settlement of Doegan in the Western Colonization era of Utter Eastern history, though it's very late. That implies Doegan was originally a Mar (or possibly already Ffolk-claimed) kingdom, though Aelric himself has a clearly Northman name, so there's possibly already some mixing of the races.
Yeah, the Shining South is a bit of a melting pot, at least ethnically if not D&D racially, and Ulgarth seems to be as well since way back in its history.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I love the Valhalla with Reincarnation concept. "I live, I die, I live again!"
Valhalla + Patala = Valhallatala!
Oh snap! I just had a revelation! There was an un-Enlightened warrior god in Al-Qadim called Vataqatal worshipped in the "far north" of Zakhara. In the books he's described as a "local" god with explicit ties to barbarian deities. His portfolio is war, growth by conflict, and duty, symbolized by a red scimitar. One of the northern cities, Qudra, has a temple to him called the Mosque of Blood.
I think Vataqatal fits very well as a deity of whatever barbarians are lurking in the Utter East.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I finished detailing the Howl of Vengeance campaign for the Forgotten Realms Wiki, from Doegan to the mysterious Old Stone Keep, with all the principle figures and artwork. Aelric the Avenger is just awesome. Anyway, I've finished working on the Utter East for now.
Great work! Yeah, anyone who has the balls (literally) to ride a battering ram through the gates deserves my man crush.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
BTW, It's not Forgotten Realms, but I'm currently read The Drowning City by Amanda Downum. A necromancer and spy (the heroine!) comes to foment revolution in a subtropical Venice-like city with a South-East Asian flavour. Under the rising floodwaters of monsoon season, a rival revolutionary group is using aquatic undead, spirits, and ghosts as an army and a terrorist weapon. It makes me think so much of Doegan in the Utter East.
Sounds like a good read. I'll check it out!
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Also BTW, Scott Bennie, the author of the Old Empires sourcebook released a PDF of his unpublished work and homebrew development, available here. It mostly covers the Old Empires, but the end has some development for the Utter East, with the city of Addercurse, the mutant barbarians of the Tanray, sand golems that could be basal golems, the lost city of Assunesta, and two pantheons of local gods. It's non-canon and very different and unrelated to the other versions of the Utter East, but it might be worth a look. (We discussed this a bit in the old thread.)
What a cool find! I've just started perusing it, but his ideas about prison-tombs, dead snake gods, and gnolls are definitely things I've been writing. I'm clearly writing from the same playbook as Scott was
His take on the barbarians of the Utter East is just weird though: The Tanray (Tanar'ri-Men) are übermensch soldiers of Imaskar who can conquer kingdoms with just 100 men and who went extinct after interbreeding with....other tribes I guess. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 11 Jul 2016 07:39:25 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 10:56:40
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If you're interested, I've finished my project of detailing Ulgarth for the Forgotten Realms Wiki. I put up everything I could find on the place, which almost entirely from the Shining South books, so there's few surprises there. But it's a complete online reference for the region.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ulgarth
In particular, I was able to determine that the Gaya, the sacred river of the Padhran faith, is in fact the River Xon in northern Ulgarth/Durpar:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/River_Xon
That confirms that the "Ulgarian" prince Surtava (he who achieved enlightenment and became the Padhra) did in fact come from Ulgarth as we all suspected. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 13:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
If you're interested, I've finished my project of detailing Ulgarth for the Forgotten Realms Wiki. I put up everything I could find on the place, which almost entirely from the Shining South books, so there's few surprises there. But it's a complete online reference for the region.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ulgarth
In particular, I was able to determine that the Gaya, the sacred river of the Padhran faith, is in fact the River Xon in northern Ulgarth/Durpar:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/River_Xon
That confirms that the "Ulgarian" prince Surtava (he who achieved enlightenment and became the Padhra) did in fact come from Ulgarth as we all suspected.
Excellent work as always BadCatMan! |
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Netbook of the Utter East with Markus Taylor
