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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 03:37:14
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Hi guys! This is my first post on Candlekeep, though I'm a regular at ENWorld. 
I figured I'd start off with a good question:
Doing research for an adventure I'm working on in the Utter East, I've assembled a list of resources that it, not surprisingly, quite sparse on detail. However, I also ran across a forum post from back in 2007 (wow, time flies!) mentioning some folks working on a Netbook for the Utter East: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10226
Among them apparently was Markus Taylor, creator of the beautiful fan maps of the Forgotten Realms, and I believe no officially doing cartography for WotC, though my sources may be wrong. Thing is, the relevant link in that old thread was to the Gleemax forums at WotC which were recently shut down.
So...my question is two-fold:
1) Does anyone have a good way to either get in touch with Markus Taylor or track down the work that was done on the Netbook for the Utter East?
2) Can anyone recommend other resources (preferably, but not exclusively, "official") about the Utter East that I've missed?
My resource list so far....
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. Bruce R. Cordell, Ed Greenwood, and Chris Sims. Wizards of the Coast, 2008.
The Grand History of the Realms. Brian R. James and Ed Greenwood. Wizards of the Coast, 2007.
Shining South. Thomas Reid. Wizards of the Coast, 2004.
Faces of Deception: Forgotten Realms Lost Empires Book 2. Troy Denning. Wizards of the Coast, 1998.
The Roof of the World. Dragon #241. Wolfgang Baur. TSR, Nov. 1997.
Blood & Magic (computer game). Interplay, 1996.
Land of Fate. Jeff Grubb & Andria Hayday. TSR, 1992.
The Horde. David Zeb Cook. TSR, 1990.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 04:13:05
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| Welcome to Candlekeep! Try sending a PM to Markus on here. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 05:30:13
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I don't think they ever compiled together a "sourcebook" unfortunately. What I found when trying to find the same was just a not-so-easy-to-navigate collection of posts with notes on the old WotC forums.
Btw, the 2nd edition Shining South book (rather than the 3.5 one) does have a considerable amount of info on the country of Ulgarth. However, in my honest opinion, that country is a complete generic paladin paradise snoozefest based on what is written. You are better off making up things about it than following what little actual "lore" there is.
Maybe we will be so lucky that the Utter East will be the region Ed Greenwood will cover in those semi-independent Realms books he's apparently going to make for each year... buuuut I doubt it. As long as WotC exists and keeps Forgotten Realms hostage, and continues to barely ever release FR content beyond adventure modules (which are almost always set in the Heartlands), the future is bleak. :( |
Edited by - deserk on 26 Feb 2016 05:51:13 |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 09:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Welcome to Candlekeep! Try sending a PM to Markus on here.
Ah! There is a PM system here. I didn't realize at first. PM sent. Thanks :)
quote:
Originally posted by desertk
I don't think they ever compiled together a "sourcebook" unfortunately. What I found when trying to find the same was just a not-so-easy-to-navigate collection of posts with notes on the old WotC forums.
Btw, the 2nd edition Shining South book (rather than the 3.5 one) does have a considerable amount of info on the country of Ulgarth. However, in my honest opinion, that country is a complete generic paladin paradise snoozefest based on what is written. You are better off making up things about it than following what little actual "lore" there is.
Maybe we will be so lucky that the Utter East will be the region Ed Greenwood will cover in those semi-independent Realms books he's apparently going to make for each year... buuuut I doubt it. As long as WotC exists and keeps Forgotten Realms hostage, and continues to barely ever release FR content beyond adventure modules (which are almost always set in the Heartlands), the future is bleak. :(
Thanks for the 2e Shining South tip. Yeah, I've written about 10 pages of just setting description, by necessity mixing what little has been written already with my own ideas.
With Ulgarth, I've done a couple things...
- Ulgarth is the supreme naval power in the Utter East - not a thalassocracy, but its navy is constantly patrolling against corsairs, smugglers, sea monsters, and the dread fleet of the yikaria. Dwarven shipwrights and retired naval officers turned merchant captain are common. With nearly every city a port, tales of the sea are interwoven in the culture.
- A burgeoning cosmopolitan society that serves as a crossroads of Faerūn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara, yet whose people also have deeply ingrained biases and local beliefs. For example, after orcish invasions, any "evil humanoids" (gnolls, bugbears, goblins, half-orcs, etc) are basically lynched on sight. Thus there's a small underground of half-orcs and goblins that deals in smuggled goods.
- While the royalty are traditionally devoted to Torm (courage and self-sacrifice) and Tyr (justice) in a "wise rule" sense, there are other interpretations. A militant religious faction of the faith advocates for renewing war against Durpar (due to a growing allegiance between Durpar and the Red Wizards) as well as for getting involved as peacekeepers in the warfare among the Five Kingdoms. Meanwhile, the common folk are slow to adopt these deities, instead worshipping a multiplicity of Cthonic gods.
- Everyone and their dog knows how to fight at least a little, owing to their long history of military conflict. Children are taught to wield knives as young as 5 years old. Most homes have an old ceremonial blade from past wars hanging over their mantle.
- Tuigans have conquered regions to the north and east, making the king of Ulgarth very watchful. For now, there is a tense mercantile detente, with Tuigans coming and going with special visas from the northernmost cities of Ulgarth and a growing trade. However, the peace lasts only because the Tuigan are forced to reach the northern lands by river or mountain due to the Gate of Iron long-sealed by ancient Imaskari magic.
- There's a bit of a "fertile crescent / birthplace of culture" vibe, and I'm weaving in lots of repurposed ruins and some elven history possibly.
- Lastly, the royal family is cursed.... still working this part out.
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Edited by - Quickleaf on 26 Feb 2016 09:48:47 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 10:36:02
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| Markustay is not doing official maps for WotC will be my only addition to this thread. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 13:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Markustay is not doing official maps for WotC will be my only addition to this thread.
I didn't think so, but I was holding my tongue, in case I was wrong.
I think he's got the skill to do maps for them, though. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 16:34:12
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Ah, so this is why you were asking all of those questions over at ENWorld.
Don't forget:
Rogue's Gallery: Faces of Deception by Troy Denning in Dragon Annual 1998 p112
and Realmspace by Dale Henson for that info on The Dock. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 26 Feb 2016 16:40:39 |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 21:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Markustay is not doing official maps for WotC will be my only addition to this thread.
Ah, my mistake! Well... with the quality of his work, he certainly could.
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Ah, so this is why you were asking all of those questions over at ENWorld.
Don't forget:
Rogue's Gallery: Faces of Deception by Troy Denning in Dragon Annual 1998 p112
and Realmspace by Dale Henson for that info on The Dock.
Yes indeed. Thanks for the reminder about those sources!
The information you provided about Langdarma was invaluable. I do have to consider whether or not adding the spelljamming will be too much / off-theme for the adventure. It's an adventure idea I've had for quite some time that I'll be publishing on DM's Guild...when I finally finish...it's going to be rather big. |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 22:02:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've seen him on Facebook, too.
There are so many Markus Taylors on Facebook! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 22:18:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've seen him on Facebook, too.
There are so many Markus Taylors on Facebook!
He's likely associated with at least one of the Forgotten Realms groups. I'd give you his exact FB name, but I'm Facebook friends with very few people here, so I don't have that info. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Feb 2016 02:04:27 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2016 : 01:12:52
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| Anyone interested in contacting Markustay can send me a PM and I'll get you in touch. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2016 : 01:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've seen him on Facebook, too.
There are so many Markus Taylors on Facebook!
He's likely associated with at least one of the Forgotten Realms books. I'd give you his exact FB name, but I'm Facebook friends with very few people here, so I don't have that info.
It's always better to make first contact on the forums or elsewhere I've found, also, before sharing Facebook or email. Hopefully, Markus is still active on Candlekeep and he'll drop in to comment sometime!
And thanks for everyone being so helpful Great community here. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 27 Feb 2016 01:15:12 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Bulak
Acolyte
Netherlands
26 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2016 : 14:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay63 on the WotC forums
Utter East Campaign + MAP!!!
I have changed the intent of this thread, and it is now intended for folks wanting to run a campaign in this region.
This is the second edition of my Utter east Map - I'm currently working on a newer one based on lore provided by BadCatMan. Anyhow, this second one is much closer to the canon map, and also includes several locales I found on an old edition of the Faerūn map. Some of the stuff you see to the east is from the various Kara-Tur maps (all canon), and Utaqa is from the Zakhara map.
Utter East
Take your pick, but the second one is more detailed and closer to canon. It also has the names of most of the Yehimal ranges on it, and leaves room for the mysterious Fifth 'Mystical Kingdom' either to the south of Konigheim or in the mountains somewhere. Whichever one people prefer, I will add the Map Key and compass rose and use that one for hosting at CK (which is where I host all of my completed maps, not the works-in-progress).
This is from the thread that was linked to from the fourth post here. Looks like the development of a netbook was abandoned.
I had to adjust the link for the map to make it work, but it still links to the same page ultimately, right here in the Candlekeep Map Room.
You can find the rest of the thread here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071120095959/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=867601
The forum thinks this should be two seperate links, which isn't so. So don't click it, but copy paste the entire string as a single link. |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2016 : 02:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If you do manage to track down some remnants of the work done on the WoTC forums for zakhara, kara tur, and the hordelands then please share it here where it can be stored forever.
But I suspect it is long lost and consigned to the dustbin of digital history.
As do I, but if I turn up anything, I'll share it for sure!
quote:
Originally posted by bulk
This is from the thread that was linked to from the fourth post here. Looks like the development of a netbook was abandoned.
I had to adjust the link for the map to make it work, but it still links to the same page ultimately, right here in the Candlekeep Map Room.
Yep! He has the two iterations of the Utter East on his DeviantArt page: http://img15.deviantart.net/8d90/i/2010/357/c/c/utter_east_by_markustay-d35jcai.jpg Great stuff.
For my adventure, I left the "fifth kingdom" up to interpretation...
Though the lands encompassing Doegan, Edenvale, Konigheim, and Parsanic are known as the Five Kingdoms, few folk agree on where the fifth kingdom lies exactly. Merchants claim it is Ulgarth, though their northern neighbor bears little resemblance to the culture of the Five Kingdoms. Spiritual seekers claim the fifth kingdom is mystical Langdarma, shrouded in the Yehimal Mountains, though most seekers are turned back by fierce storms and impassable slopes. Sages and realists claim it fell during war a millennia ago, swallowed up by a cataclysmic flood. While idealists believe the fifth kingdom is a dream that has never been realized, a land united under the banner of peace. In recent times, soldiers and refugees have taken to calling the war-torn borderlands the fifth kingdom. Sadly, it is this bitter sobriquet which has become the most common.
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Edited by - Quickleaf on 29 Feb 2016 02:21:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 13:02:00
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I am no longer making ANY maps. Recent events have soured my taste for cartography.
All my notes for the Utter East are gone in a house fire, and all that is left is whatever was posted in the Utter East thread over on the WotC boards back in the day (if that info is even still accessible). I can't seem to find a link to that page anymore.
I stopped work on the Utter East (and Kara-Tur) right around the time of the 4e announcement - considering the time changes to the setting, I figured maps of the area were pointless. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 14:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am no longer making ANY maps. Recent events have soured my taste for cartography.
No maps at all, or just not FR maps? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 15:45:47
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I will be focusing on my writing now, and letting that 'sink or swim' on its own merit.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am no longer making ANY maps. Recent events have soured my taste for cartography.
No maps at all, or just not FR maps?
NONE
For reasons I'd rather not get into, especially on this site.
Lets just say that if I had it within my power to do so, I wish that every map I ever created would just disappear off the face of the Earth. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2016 15:46:53 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 18:15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will be focusing on my writing now, and letting that 'sink or swim' on its own merit.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am no longer making ANY maps. Recent events have soured my taste for cartography.
No maps at all, or just not FR maps?
NONE
For reasons I'd rather not get into, especially on this site.
Lets just say that if I had it within my power to do so, I wish that every map I ever created would just disappear off the face of the Earth.
I heard about what happened. Know that you have my sympathies Mark. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 21:15:50
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| Sorry to hear, Markustay. Your work on FR maps have been invaluable here. You should really be working on WotC with your breadth of knowledge on FR and artistic skills. :) |
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Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 19:08:12
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| I will confess to having never even heard of these places! Where can I go to find out more about it? |
Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2016 : 15:46:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
I will confess to having never even heard of these places! Where can I go to find out more about it?
I would point you in the direction of the 'Utter east + Maps' thread that was at the WotC site, but thats all gone now. We had assembled every last scrap of related lore we could on the region, and extrapolated quite a bit more from the few shreds we had.
I hadn't bothered to copy all the stuff from the WotC site when it was closing down, but now I think I probably should have in the case of the UE - most of that info (and video-game pics!) is unobtainable now. I hid 'Easter Eggs' about certain canon stuff in my one CK Compendium article, and about the (confusing) origins of Ulgarth and the other countries 'down there'.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2016 : 01:34:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am no longer making ANY maps. Recent events have soured my taste for cartography.
All my notes for the Utter East are gone in a house fire, and all that is left is whatever was posted in the Utter East thread over on the WotC boards back in the day (if that info is even still accessible). I can't seem to find a link to that page anymore.
I stopped work on the Utter East (and Kara-Tur) right around the time of the 4e announcement - considering the time changes to the setting, I figured maps of the area were pointless.
Thanks for dropping by to answer my question, Markus!
Sorry about whatever soured your taste for cartography, but I wish you success with your writing endeavors. |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2016 : 07:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdalI never really used the wotc forums but if they were have as lorefull as these digital halls then their loss should be mourned with a state funeral. Now if I ever get round to doing an alternate utter east I will have to do it again from scratch.
I barely ever posted at WotC forums since I really enjoy the ENWorld community, so I didn't even know about the work on the Utter East folks were doing until I began doing research for my adventuring writing and stumbled across Markus Taylor's posts on Candlekeep!
My impression of the Utter East is that it's a melting pot...
It's a very humid and rainy region that grows less so the further south you travel toward the Haunted Lands. It's a region with a strong maritime tradition, ample trade, and great wealth as well as inequality. And it has a history of blood magic leading to ruin.
Ulgarth has a bit of a "paladin naval kingdom" vibe mixed in with touches of South Asian and Mediterranean elements. It seems likely that the Triad of Torm, Tyr, and Ilmater might be worshipped here. While the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide implies that Ulgarth is "grouped" with the Beastlands, that's across the other side of the Golden Water and really is unrelated geographically and culturally. But since there's kenku in the region apparently, maybe they've linked up as the "face" of any monstrous humanoids (orcs & goblins) living underground in the shadow of Ulgarth, who are noted as being intolerant after years of raiding from Duskwall orcs.
There are Tuigan barbarians in the north/northeast that the unarmored knights of Ulgarth patrol against on horseback. They've breached the Dragonwall in the past, and while they're not breaching the Gate of Iron it's likely in the last 100 years they have expanded southward somewhat, looking at the wealthy cities of the Utter East as a prize. Maybe they've conquered Thommar? I haven't found any description of Thommar yet, so making it the breaching point for Tuigans into the Utter East might be interesting.
The Five Kingdoms have a fusion of Pakistani and South Asian culture influences, with a South African-like apartheid/regime of northern conquerors ruling over the marginalized Mar. There are subtle hints from the Blood and Magic that I can expand on as starting places, and I can also look to James Wyatt's Mahasarpa supplement and real-world South Asian cultures for inspiration. From Faces of Deception I learned there is lots of superstition related to the Forgotten Ones being worshipped/appeased. I'm thinking it would be culturally appropriate (also pick up on a story detail from 4e) to have warring rakshasa and deva in the mythic past of the Utter East.
Then you have the various regions of the Shining South, which changed so significantly in the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (i.e. Var & Luiren sunk, and Dambrath was freed of tyrannical half-drows) that they were dubbed the "Scarred South." Interestingly, the only long-lived demi-human mentioned in connection with Ulgarth was Simveri Trollkin in the 2e Shining South supplement. Simveri was a renegade 1/4 drow from Dambrath who rose to become general of Ulgarth's forces. With the 100 year time jump, she'd still be naturally alive (unless she took a mace to the face), and a important NPC in the region.
There's a sizable area south of Konigheim and north of the Haunted Lands that Markus Taylor put on his map as Barbarian Marches. Looking at the various cultural analogues coming together ( Pakistani, Mongol, Tibetan, Arabian ), and the move from a tropical to a warmer/drier climate, and the numerous smaller mountain ranges... I'm thinking transhumance is probably practiced by these barbarians... And given the distance and rocky terain they'd be ranging, they're probably be horse/camel/yak riders. But we've already got Tuigans as mounted barbarians par excellence.... so what about centaurs? Not the foresty kind, but the tough steppes-dwelling kind?
There are 3 more areas that I think merit calling out in relation to the Utter East....
The Haunted Lands and Utaqa (from Al-Qadim) could play an important role in trade. Also, the rulers of the Five Kingdoms likely keep a close watch on the political situation in Zakhara, as the Scouring left a mark on the people of the Utter East. Plus, Utaqa is sort of not-really-Zakhara anyhow, being governed without much supervision from the Grand Caliphate, and being a city described as "half barbarian" anyhow. It's probably a critical trade partner with the Utter East -- supplying goods from throughout Zakhara and possibly mercenaries (though that could easily be a two way street). However, any mamluks operating in the region after the 100 year jump are likely filled from the ranks of enslaved youth from the Utter East, Tuigans, and local hill tribes. So there's likely some tension there. Probably more trade is over the ocean, as the Haunted Lands are a foreboding place, and the few caravan trails are closely guarded secrets.
The yak-folk of the World Pillar Mountains likely have as much of an interest in the Utter East as they do in Zakhara. In Wolfgang Baur's Roof of the World Dragon magazine article on the yak-folk, he proposed the mountains divided into several provinces, with one province covering the Barbarian Marches on Markus Taylor's map. They even had a coastal city called Lipo known for its shrine to the Faceless God in the marches/province! I'm thinking with the 100 year time jump that province may have been devastated by war (perhaps something internal for the yak-folk or something ecological), so their city was ruined or sunk into the ocean, and only the shrine remains.
Just some late night brainstorming |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 06 Mar 2016 10:15:34 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2016 : 14:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
The yak-folk of the World Pillar Mountains likely have as much of an interest in the Utter East as they do in Zakhara. In Wolfgang Baur's Roof of the World Dragon magazine article on the yak-folk, he proposed the mountains divided into several provinces, with one province covering the Barbarian Marches on Markus Taylor's map. They even had a coastal city called Lipo known for its shrine to the Faceless God in the marches/province! I'm thinking with the 100 year time jump that province may have been devastated by war (perhaps something internal for the yak-folk or something ecological), so their city was ruined or sunk into the ocean, and only the shrine remains.
That would be in issue #241 of Dragon magazine. I never got a chance to place that city (I found it well after I stopped working on the UE). I just consulted my extensive geography notes on the Realms and this is what I have for it -
quote:
Lipo - A town on the border of the Utter East and Zakhara. The Coral Princess rules the ring of mountains around the small natural harbor called Pearl Bay. Her seat of government is Lipo, a small town that profits from trade between the Empire and the cities of the barbaric north. Remarkably, she is an albino, and untested as a wizard, but her skills at disguise and bloodtheft are described as exceptional (FYk/P10, M10/NE). She is the most liberal of the yikarian governors, so many pilgrims come to her, seeking intercession with the Forgotten God at Lipos grand temple, the Shrine of the Jade Monolith. Campaign Classics, Dragon #241
The Basal Golems from the video game (Blood & Magick) were worked into a lot of what we did in the UE, and Brian James became interested in our 'fan work' and that's how we got that lovely vingette about the UE in the GHotR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2016 : 17:12:02
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That's awesome to hear about your fan writing making its way into Brian James's work on the GHotR.
I love the idea of a yikaria dread fleet, ships of beached bone raiding for slaves taken back to toil in the mines and serve as sacrificial offerings.
However, Lipo in Dragon 241 struck me as odd. Yak-folk are all about the mountains, and definitely are not portrayed as the "let's share cultures and trade by the sea" types.
Also, in trying to reconcile your well-conceived depiction of the UE, with the Barbarian Marches dividing the Haunted Lands and southernmost of the Five Kingdoms, I realized that while the yak-folk might have a removed outpost in the foothills, having an entire yak-folk town by the coast raised all kinds of problems. Why didn't they control the intervening lands between the western provinces (Ghost Leopard & Fiend's Wing) and coastal Lipo? Why would pilgrims come to a town to petition the Faceless God knowing that the menacing yak-folk lived there? Why wouldn't the mamluks of Zakhara's north cities attack the heck out of them? Not to mention Ulgarth's strong navy?
My "easy answer" was: In the intervening 100 year jump, Lipo was destroyed when the dao broke free of slavery to the yikaria.
However, there may be merit in trying to answer some of those sticky questions. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 07 Mar 2016 17:12:38 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2016 : 21:07:44
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Absolutely! "Why" is one of the most crucial and interesting stages of any design process.
I think I need to answer a bunch of the other "whys" I presented first, however. But I do intend to tackle those questions of "why was Lipo destroyed and why then? what's left of it? why wasn't it resettled?"
First, here's the map discrepancy...
Markus Taylor's "The Utter East" map
http://img15.deviantart.net/8d90/i/2010/357/c/c/utter_east_by_markustay-d35jcai.jpg
Dragon #241 "The Roof of the World" map (by R. Ward Shipman)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/quickleaf/Screen%20Shot%202016-03-07%20at%2010.39.40%20AM.png
And here's the original AD&D Land of Fate writeup on the yikaria: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/yakman.php
As you can see, the Barbarian Marches in Markus' map correspond to the yikaria province of the Sun's Eye from Dragon 241. And roughly where the Nobaan River reaches the Great Sea there are the Black Wash Fens and Lipo (and the Dragon magazine text indicates "Pearl Bay" around which Lipo was built). It's implied, though not directly stated, that the Coral Princess (which Markus gave a good description of above) governed Sun's Eye, though her real center of power seems to be the Shrine of the Jade Monolith in Lipo.
So the first question might be:
WHY do the mountain-dwelling yikaria have a coastal city at all?
It seems to be implied in their AD&D Land of Fate writeup that the yikaria (and their Faceless/Forgotten God) are bound to the World Pillar Mountains, and the Dragon article suggests there may even be a magical bound or curse keeping them there. Moreover, they're described as "boogeymen" and they are described (and presented in a few adventures) as the ultimate infiltrators. So it just feels "off-theme" for them to have a full on coastal town that trades and receives pilgrim. What is up with that? If they want to drown their slaves for sacrificing in the "manner elemental" to the Faceless/Forgotten God, surely mountain lakes would be more convenient. And if they want to gather new slaves, that's what they send out convicts & scouts to do disguised in the skin of mortal victims...after all, why have huge slave galleons when you've got a perfectly good thing going with small unseen "slave-taker" groups leading victims to their doom already.
For humans, coastal cities are often about (a) benefiting from the marine ecosystem, and (b) overseas trade. The yikaria are presented as pretty self-sufficient in Land of Fate and the Dragon article (at least that was my read). The only exception MIGHT be their inherent drive for dark knowledge that may serve to corrupt or dominate others. But "spell and magic trading town" seems like a weak basis for an entire settlement of yikaria. It may be part of the picture, but not the whole picture.
So, here are 3 off-the-cuff answers I'm playing with...not necessarily mutually exclusive...
1. They want control of something (aquatic elven Sea Gate) in/on the Great Sea
This answer is the most direct. The Lotus Emperor wants to control a Sea Gate which allows his fleets to teleport to Faerūn or Shou Lung or somewhere. So he sends an outcast/"black sheep" albino servant to establish an outpost; the servant grows to become the Coral Princess, and the outpost grows to become Lipo. The knowledge about the Sea Gate is elusive, however, as are its sea elven keepers, so it grows into a trading town while the Coral Princess continues to hunt down any clue about the Sea Gate.
2. A group of yikaria heretics rebelled against their Lotus Emperor
The Coral Princess' odd willingness to deal with mortal races on an "even" playing field (i.e. where they're not enslaved) suggests a very different outlook than the rest of yikaria society. At the same time, even if they rebelled against the Lotus Emperor, they have a huge jade statue of the Faceless God there, and receive mortal pilgrims no less! So perhaps the have some theological divide, or see themselves as missionaries of the Faceless/Forgotten God...a deity most yikaria regard as being "theirs and theirs alone." In this sense, Lipo grew around the Shrine of the Jade Monolith and was originally a pilgrimage site.
3. Lipo is a conquered city occupied by the yikaria
The first inhabitants of Lipo may have been mortal races and not yikaria at all! This might lend credence to the theory that the "fifth kingdom" once lay south of Konigheim but was ruined by war. Perhaps the town was originally a way-station (caravanserai) for the overland route between Utaqa and Konigheim. So all sorts of trinkets unearthed in the Haunted Lands and the Barbarian Marches made their way through the market at Lipo. Perhaps brazen adventurers stole something of the yikaria's (The Shrine of the Jade Monolith itself??) and brought down the yikaria's wrath upon them. The original settlement may have been slaughtered, enslaved, or even used as skin-melded puppets. Perhaps, rather than leave with their shrine/statue, the yikaria took this as a sign from the Forgotten/Faceless God and colonized the settlement. |
Edited by - Quickleaf on 07 Mar 2016 21:40:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2016 : 00:34:43
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Considering the appearance of a yak(wo)man female in Waterdeep as an ambassador(?) in one of the Double-Diamond novels, I would go with #2.
Somehow, a group found a way to break the bond with the mountains, are considered heretics, and have been 'behaving themselves' (which would explain why the Mamluks have not attacked... YET).
I would even go out on a limb and say that perhaps the yakwoman was the Coral princes herself, in disguise, and she is quite taken with human culture and customs.
There is a (sort-of) precedent for this sort of thing where Zakhara is concerned - they also have a population of surface-dwelling, coastal Dark Elves that trade with others (Akota, I think was the place's name). In the Land of Fate (as with the Eastern Realms), groups of people are taken at face value, and judged by their individual actions, rather then by race. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2016 12:46:36 |
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Netbook of the Utter East with Markus Taylor
