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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 02:58:10
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There is a thread in Enworld about the New Ranks for Divinities in 5e and I was wonder what you experts in the realms think it means for the realms.
The ranks according into the DMG are
Greater God- They don't dwell directly in the Planes, but thier avatars do.
Lesser Gods- They dwell in the Planes, and if Tiamat is an example have discorprate which means when defeat the deity disappears only to return later on its plane.
Quasi Deity- basically like the Quasi Deity in previous editions, but expanded to include three categories, demigods (the demigods of the past like Sharess that grants spells would be Lesser Gods now) which are have a mortal and deity parent, Titans (the Creations of the Gods), Vestiges dead or forgotten gods (given most Gods have been restored that likely just leaves poor Karus).
So this means all demigods have been promoted to Lesser Gods.
Spoiler Alert
It's been revealed that Archdevils have Chosen of thier own, I would stick them in the Quasi Deity category, but does that mean that Quasi Deities like Empyreans can have thier own Chosen because that could be interesting. The Torresque is now defined as a Titan in the MM, could thier be a Chosen of the Monstrosity?
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 03:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Greater God- They don't dwell directly in the Planes, but thier avatars do.
Where are they supposed to dwell? I mean, to my understanding the Multiverse basically is Primes + various Planes  |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Feb 2015 03:04:59 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 03:11:41
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| I mean the regular parts of the Planes that Mortals with magic can visit. I don't know exactly where they dwell, just that it's out of reach by mortals. It could be in the immaterial part of the Plane, or somewhere stranger still, I don't know. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 14:19:33
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| Its another step to move the gods further out of the limelight. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 15:03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Its another step to move the gods further out of the limelight.
Only the greater/intermediate ones. The less powerful deities could even be met, according to the new description. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 17:51:54
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Actually an example is Tiamat in Hoard of the Dragon Queen with Stats.
This is a huge surprise radical change.
Greater Gods and Lesser Gods already exist, demigods were sort of gone in 4e replaced by Exarch, and Quasi Deities were in 3e.
So Intermediate, Lesser, and Demigods got merged into a single thing, basically Gods.
Then thier are Greater Gods who are less access able then in some editions, but in 2e, you only ever dealt with thier avatars too.
In 3e terms Quasi Deities are deities with a divine rank of 0 (mortal beings don't have divine rank period, not even 0).
Also we know the Pantheon was being shook up and much of it restored for 5e, with portfolios shifting to accommodate this change. The Tablets of Fate have been rewritten.
So want the whole Pantheon list, not just the sample we got in the PHB. Including Zahara and Kara-Tur Gods/religions. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 05:18:24
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| Yay, the less they force beings like Mystra and Tyr and Bane down our throats the better. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 14:01:50
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| I want more god fun :-) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 16:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
In previous editions the deities all lived on the outer planes and the only presence they ever had on the material plane was through avatars, manifestations, or intermediaries (demigods being the exception but only because the avatar on the material plane also housed their divine essence).
Not entirely true. Both Eldath and Mielikki chose the Material Plane to house their deific realms until after the Godswar when they both moved themselves to the House of Nature.
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Now, having read the passage in the DMG which was being referred to in the ENWorld thread, I got the distinct impression that when you are referring to a Greater Deity in the Forgotten Realms you are talking about Ao and only Ao. All other beings we would consider gods would come under the Lesser Deity brand whether you're talking greater powers, intermediate powers, lesser powers, demipowers or whatever.
Quasi-deities are beings with some kind of divinity but lacking the capability to grant divine spells and who gain nothing from mortal worship - the children of gods and mortals; titans; vestiges of dead deities; celestial paragons; archfiends; etc. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 24 Feb 2015 16:35:24 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 23:17:50
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Ugh. I vote just to ignore it. (We do get a vote, don't we?) 
Personally, I handle deities as follows:
Greater Deity
Lesser Deity
Demi-Deity
Quasi-deity
Greater Deities are the deities known everywhere in the Realms. They are worshiped by pretty much everyone.
Lesser Deities are deities in one or more regions of the Realms, but are not universally known or worshiped everywhere. There are some parts of the Realms where the deity is largely unknown.
Demi-Deities are deities that are very localized in their worship. Usually they are limited to a single region at most, in some cases a single country. In some rare cases, especially with secretive faiths, there are some deities known to only specific groups or cults, and are largely unknown to the general public.
Quasi-deities are not really deities. They are more on par with the 4E concept of Exarchs. They rest somewhere on the very grey border between mortal and divine. They are immortal, and have the potential to ascend to full divinity. Some of them have cults and others do not. They mostly exist on the Prime Material Plane. They can be slain. Most of them serve--or were created/empowered by--true deities.
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Edited by - Aldrick on 24 Feb 2015 23:19:35 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 00:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Ugh. I vote just to ignore it. (We do get a vote, don't we?)
Personally, I handle deities as follows:
Greater Deity
Lesser Deity
Demi-Deity
Quasi-deity
Greater Deities are the deities known everywhere in the Realms. They are worshiped by pretty much everyone.
Lesser Deities are deities in one or more regions of the Realms, but are not universally known or worshiped everywhere. There are some parts of the Realms where the deity is largely unknown.
Demi-Deities are deities that are very localized in their worship. Usually they are limited to a single region at most, in some cases a single country. In some rare cases, especially with secretive faiths, there are some deities known to only specific groups or cults, and are largely unknown to the general public.
Quasi-deities are not really deities. They are more on par with the 4E concept of Exarchs. They rest somewhere on the very grey border between mortal and divine. They are immortal, and have the potential to ascend to full divinity. Some of them have cults and others do not. They mostly exist on the Prime Material Plane. They can be slain. Most of them serve--or were created/empowered by--true deities.
That's pretty much my take on it. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 11:49:41
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Lesser Gods can't access the material plane normally, it takes something exceptional like the entire plot of the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, they can't just stop by for lunch and tea. It's a special plot line thing.
You won't be seeing the Gods make personal appearances any more post Sundering in the realms themselves. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 16:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I guess we shall have to wait and see, although if i were a betting man i wouldnt give you good odds on this last statement.
I agree. The temptation to use the deities is just too great. I think our only real window in putting an end to this is as the 5E FRCS is being written. We need to raise enough of a stink that WotC has Ao carve into the new Tablets of Fate rules against deities directly interfering in the Realms. They can interfere indirectly, by trying to persuade their mortal followers, but no more direct interference.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 17:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I guess we shall have to wait and see, although if i were a betting man i wouldnt give you good odds on this last statement.
I agree. The temptation to use the deities is just too great. I think our only real window in putting an end to this is as the 5E FRCS is being written. We need to raise enough of a stink that WotC has Ao carve into the new Tablets of Fate rules against deities directly interfering in the Realms. They can interfere indirectly, by trying to persuade their mortal followers, but no more direct interference.
I think that it is what's currently happening (Ao assigning portfolios to each deity and then saying ''that's what you get, no more conflicts or power grabs''), but it doesn't really matter. If WotC wants to use the gods for something, they will do it no matter what the setting establishes in that regard (it would take them nothing to alter the rules, just as it took them nothing to make so many gods disappear or unleash a pseudo-apocalypse on the Realms). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 17:49:57
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| I propose a compromise. Have to the deities be involved, since they are a big part of the Realms, but only indirectly. How that can happen, I'm not sure. But I see nothing wrong with providing info on deities. It's just more lore for us to enjoy. If you don't want to use it in your campaign, don't. I'm kind of tired of gods-driven RSE's too, but I would miss the deities if they disappeared from the Realms. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 17:57:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I propose a compromise. Have to the deities be involved, since they are a big part of the Realms, but only indirectly. How that can happen, I'm not sure. But I see nothing wrong with providing info on deities. It's just more lore for us to enjoy. If you don't want to use it in your campaign, don't. I'm kind of tired of gods-driven RSE's too, but I would miss the deities if they disappeared from the Realms.
You should tell that to WotC. However the IP is theirs, at the end of the day they'll do whatever they want with it, I don't think we have a real say on it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 17:59:01
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| What is the best way to do that? I don't go on their site much. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 18:03:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
What is the best way to do that? I don't go on their site much.
Well, you could try their customer service. Or you could write a letter to whoever is at the head of their story section right now (Christopher Perkins, AFAIK. The e-mail is ''name dot second name at wizards dot com''). When I wrote to him asking about Eilistraee, he actually took the time to answer, so it's not wasted time.
But what I meant is that whatever they promise now, if plans change, no in-world rule will stop them from doing what they want. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 18:04:51
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| Okay, thanks, and very true. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 18:24:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I think that it is what's currently happening (Ao assigning portfolios to each deity and then saying ''that's what you get, no more conflicts or power grabs''), but it doesn't really matter. If WotC wants to use the gods for something, they will do it no matter what the setting establishes in that regard (it would take them nothing to alter the rules, just as it took them nothing to make so many gods disappear or unleash a pseudo-apocalypse on the Realms).
I don't disagree. However, every obstacle in their way is a victory for us.
We also have no way of knowing what comes down from WotC and what liberties an author takes for themselves. It could constrain the authors in choosing to do this, if it does not constrain WotC.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 18:31:51
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I don't think a deity (or their avatar) interacting with a follower now and then isn't going to disrupt anything, so long as it doesn't become commonplace, and the deity appears only when absolutely necessary. Perhaps even when they do appear they are restricted in their communication--can only speak crypitically, and can only linger a short time.
I don't think having info on the rank of the deity or where they dwell is going to change how they interact--or don't interact--with mortals. I for one wouldn't mind knowing where a deity dwells, especially if it's changed. It doesn't mean they are going to become more involved in the mortal plane. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 19:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't think a deity (or their avatar) interacting with a follower now and then isn't going to disrupt anything, so long as it doesn't become commonplace, and the deity appears only when absolutely necessary. Perhaps even when they do appear they are restricted in their communication--can only speak crypitically, and can only linger a short time.
I agree with all of this. They can do this through dream visions and manifestations. Or like we discussed in another thread, if they absolutely needed a more direct hand in the Realms, they could do some type of possession of a mortal--but at the cost of the mortal having some type of influence over how things are interpreted. (As to keep things somewhat cryptic.)
This is what I meant by indirect. Basically, keep things somewhat cryptic, and no more avatars stomping around or direct heavy-handed interventions. Influence heavily? An active presence? Yes, absolutely. It is necessary to maintain the feel of the Realms. Playing a direct hand in the events unfolding in an overt (rather than a behind the scenes) way? No, we need to do our best to prevent that.
There is a balance between the deities being too distant and mysterious (Eberron) and the deities manifesting avatars on a whim to do mundane things like become an Innkeeper (the Realms--this actually happened with an avatar of Selune) or manifesting their power in an overt way (i.e. true resurrecting Elminster). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 19:47:23
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| I can agree to that. I don't want them to become so mysterious they are almost non-existence, but I agree it got too out of hand. A deity isn't likely to join a mortal for tea--though in some cases I can see them sending a servitor to commune with a follower. I would like to see info on the deities, such as their alignment, realm location, dogma--since that is needed for the followers, anyway. I believe that can be done while still keeping the mystery about them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 02:03:24
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| When I say they can't normally appear anymore on the material plane, I mean physically I don't mean they can't send visions and signs. I think to some degree that is okay still. Even sending Angels and other servants as messengers is fine I think. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 02:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
...though in some cases I can see them sending a servitor to commune with a follower.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Even sending Angels and other servants as messengers is fine I think.
I agree with both of you. We know that deities have servitors, and yet we rarely if ever actually see them in Realms fiction. That is insanely frustrating. So, as long as we don't get a being who acts like they were just speaking with the deity moments ago, and are coming to deliver a direct message, then I think it is a great idea. Just give them their own identities, personalities, and motives that are loosely aligned with the deity (even if they are never revealed).
In my mind servitors should be powerful beings who embody concepts or aspects of the deity. They should be awesome, powerful, and terrifying. That is a way to give mortal followers a sense that they are basking in the presence of a deity, without actually having a deity show up. This eliminates entirely the need for avatars. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 02:47:10
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| I wouldn't mind seeing some servitors :) I would like to know more about them, and I think it could prove to be a nice medium. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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5e Divine Ranks
