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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 22:41:08
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I just finished it and have it in a word document. What is the best way to get it to the scribes? Posting it here would likely ruin a lot of the formatting.
Would like some constructive feedback as well.
Thanks!
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 15:47:07
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Any thoughts on changing the bladesong feat? Maybe something like this:
Bladesong (feat)
You learn the intricate steps of the bladesong fighting style, using graceful dance-like steps to avoid being hit while at the same time setting your opponents off-balance for a deadly counterstrike.
- When you wield a melee weapon in one hand and nothing on the other, you may add your proficiency bonus to your AC. The exception to this is surprise, as the character must be able to know and see his enemy in order for the bonus to apply.
- When an opponent misses you, you have advantage on the next attack roll against the opponent who missed you. If you attack a different opponent, or fail to attack at all on the next turn, the advantage is lost.
Some past history:
The 2e bladesinger had half his level as an AC bonus, which got ridiculous.
The 3E and 3.5e had his Intelligence as an AC bonus = not to exceed his level
I tried to avoid adding a flat out bonus in favor of disadvantage, but maybe just a simple bonus like proficiency. Or I could do Int. like 3e |
Edited by - Jeiroth on 07 Jan 2015 15:48:10 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 16:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
Any thoughts on changing the bladesong feat? Maybe something like this:
Bladesong (feat)
You learn the intricate steps of the bladesong fighting style, using graceful dance-like steps to avoid being hit while at the same time setting your opponents off-balance for a deadly counterstrike.
- When you wield a melee weapon in one hand and nothing on the other, you may add your proficiency bonus to your AC. The exception to this is surprise, as the character must be able to know and see his enemy in order for the bonus to apply.
- When an opponent misses you, you have advantage on the next attack roll against the opponent who missed you. If you attack a different opponent, or fail to attack at all on the next turn, the advantage is lost.
Some past history:
The 2e bladesinger had half his level as an AC bonus, which got ridiculous.
The 3E and 3.5e had his Intelligence as an AC bonus = not to exceed his level
I tried to avoid adding a flat out bonus in favor of disadvantage, but maybe just a simple bonus like proficiency. Or I could do Int. like 3e
If it were me, I'd do INT bonus to AC much like the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense. Alternatively, you might look at the Gladiator's Parry ability (MM pg 346) and do something similar to that. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 18:41:01
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| Cool. Question. How do you intend for the concentration requirement for the Silver Fire healing to work? If it works like concentration on a spell in 5e, I can still attack with a melee or ranged weapon, or cast a spell that does not require concentration. Is that how it's intended? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 18:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Cool. Question. How do you intend for the concentration requirement for the Silver Fire healing to work? If it works like concentration on a spell in 5e, I can still attack with a melee or ranged weapon, or cast a spell that does not require concentration. Is that how it's intended?
I am actually intending it to be something you must spend your entire turn doing. So no attacks, no other spells. You can defend yourself, but your attention is on converting the spell levels into healing energy.
This is how it is currently worded:
Silver Fire (Synostodweomer)
At 2nd level Bladesingers learn to convert arcane energy into silver fire to fuel their bodies. This raw magic is sometimes called Silver Fire or Spell Fire, and other beings (such as Mystras Chosen) may know offensive uses for it. The elves however only know how to use it to heal themselves.
Once per turn as an action, the Bladesinger may convert spell energy into silver fire, which heals their wounds. Every spell level that a bladesinger converts heals the bladesinger of 1d8 + int hit points. So a level 3 bladesinger with an int of 16 that gives up a level 2 spell slot heals for 2D8 + 6 hit points. The bladesinger is required to concentrate during the full turn. If his concentration is disrupted the spell levels are not converted and the bladesinger receives no healing.
The bladesinger may only heal themselves. Silver fire does not cure or remove any conditions (such as the poisoned condition). |
Edited by - Jeiroth on 07 Jan 2015 18:46:54 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 21:30:36
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For defense both auto-disadvantage or prof-bonus ro AC while wearing medium armor are too much.
It should be similiar to barbarian and monk and allow 10+Dex+Int while wearing no armor or just a flat +2 bonus if allowed to work with armor |
Edited by - Mirtek on 07 Jan 2015 21:31:40 |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 21:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
For defense both auto-disadvantage or prof-bonus ro AC while wearing medium armor are too much.
It should be similiar to barbarian and monk and allow 10+Dex+Int while wearing no armor or just a flat +2 bonus if allowed to work with armor
What do you think about half-int rounded up to work with light armor only?
That way it acts like a shield.
I mean a scald bard wears medium armor and a shield. I am trying to achieve similar results.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 21:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
For defense both auto-disadvantage or prof-bonus ro AC while wearing medium armor are too much.
It should be similiar to barbarian and monk and allow 10+Dex+Int while wearing no armor or just a flat +2 bonus if allowed to work with armor
What do you think about half-int rounded up to work with light armor only?
That way it acts like a shield.
I mean a scald bard wears medium armor and a shield. I am trying to achieve similar results.
Would come out at +3 with 20 Int, so you're essentially give out a +1 shield for free while the skald has to find a +1 shield as one of his permanent magic items.
In any case somewhere along flat +2 or half-Int rounded up is fine I'd say
Personally I'd leave it at +2 and he has to find magic bracers just like anyone else has to find a magic shield if he wants more AC |
Edited by - Mirtek on 07 Jan 2015 21:57:43 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 23:22:19
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I'm not a fan of Half-elves not being able to be Bladesingers considering that there have been Half-elven Bladesingers in the Realms before.
The bladesong feat is really too powerful.
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 01:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
For defense both auto-disadvantage or prof-bonus ro AC while wearing medium armor are too much.
It should be similiar to barbarian and monk and allow 10+Dex+Int while wearing no armor or just a flat +2 bonus if allowed to work with armor
What do you think about half-int rounded up to work with light armor only?
That way it acts like a shield.
I mean a scald bard wears medium armor and a shield. I am trying to achieve similar results.
Would come out at +3 with 20 Int, so you're essentially give out a +1 shield for free while the skald has to find a +1 shield as one of his permanent magic items.
In any case somewhere along flat +2 or half-Int rounded up is fine I'd say
Personally I'd leave it at +2 and he has to find magic bracers just like anyone else has to find a magic shield if he wants more AC
the problem I am running into is that bracers of defense do not work with armor. Also the bard with half plate +3 (15+2 dex + 3 magic = 20 ) and a +3 shield (5ac) = 25ac potential, and the blade singer will never sniff better than 23ac. (22 ac with your +2 idea).
This problem gets even worse with fighters, clerics, and paladins who have heavy armor proficiency. 26ac + metal armor enchantments such as invulnerability.
I would like a way to get the blade singer to remain competitive in the ac department while fighting one handed without a shield. He will be expected to fight in the front lines. and not stand back and nuke. Without competitive AC the class will not play as intended. Might as well go Bard or EK at that point. And those classes are not blade singers . Not even close.
Maybe I can create special bracers that work with light armor. It would be nice if mithril chain shirts had remained light armor as it was in D&D next (really disappointed in this version of Elven Chain). I might take a look at some of the old next feats and items to see what could be done. |
Edited by - Jeiroth on 08 Jan 2015 01:52:01 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 19:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
the problem I am running into is that bracers of defense do not work with armor.
You're right, I was already caught at thinking about the 10+Dex+Int in no armor variant, which could get AC 22 with a flat +2 bonues or AC 24 with +2 bracers
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
Also the bard with half plate +3 (15+2 dex + 3 magic = 20 ) and a +3 shield (5ac) = 25ac potential,
But only if he aquires not only one but two legendary/artifact items.
A more realistic picture of the skald would be a +1 armor & shield for AC 21 (maybe the feat that allows +3 Dex in medium armor for AC 22). When he also has a +1 weapon that's already plenty of permanent magic items in 5e |
Edited by - Mirtek on 08 Jan 2015 19:11:27 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 18:17:11
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Ok, I'm looking deeper into the class and here's some critique I've written down about it. Take it for what it's worth....
- Racial Requirement: Need to add half-elves as they've been allowed to be Bladesingers since the start of 3rd Edition.
- Blade Attunement: Looks fine and flavorful. Very similar to the Swordmage's ability.
- Elven Dueling: Really powerful. Not only do you get a flat +2 bonus to every damage roll (something I'm cool with) but the ability to wield it with Dex just propels Dexterity as the SUPER STAT 5E has made it out to be. There's absolutely no reason why any Bladesinger would use Strength, which is something I'm not OK with.
- Spellcasting/Cantrips: Overall OK, though I'm still not a fan of them gaining access to 9th level spells, something Bladesingers traditionally didn't have access to (besides 4E where everyone got high-leveled powers). I'd much prefer them following a Paladin or Ranger spell-progression.
- Bladesong feat: Woah boy, probably the biggest issue here. Imposing Disadvantage on opponents is POWERFUL, especially when it's on ALL attacks. I'd rather change this to a buff to AC = to 1/2 Intelligence modifier. The second part is a bit better, granting Advantage vs. an opponent who's missed you AND the fact that it only affects the 1st attack made, not every attack they can make. I'd keep this part.
- Silver Fire (Synostodweomer): Looks fine to me, I like the flavor.
- Armored Mage & Arcane Strike: Interesting and signature abilities. I like them.
- Song of Celerity: Bascially Extra Attack, gained a level later than the Fighter but moreso than other classes. I'd have to playtest this along side a Paladin and/or Ranger to see how much better this is at this particular level
- Elven Mantle: Too powerful. Advantage on every Saving Throw is just too good. I'd rather you have Advantage on saving throws you were proficient with (Intelligence and Dexterity) only. And even then, it's really powerful especially at 8th level.
- Song of Vengeance: Looks fine as is.
- Spellblade: Compared to a Fighter who, at this point, can still only make two attacks per turn (four with 1 use of Action Surge) it's a little too powerful. You can cast any spell in conjunction with two attacks (granting you potentially 3 attacks per turn). Too much. I'm not sure what you could put here instead? My suggestion would be similar to Action Surge, such as 1/short rest.
- Eldritch Strike: Fine as it.
- Song of Fury: Too powerful with the ability to use 9th level spells. I'd limit it to recharging any spell of 4th or 5th level or lower if you maintain 9th level spell progression.
[*]Ability Score Increases: I think you had intended for them to be there, but it's nice to throw them in anyways so people understand that.
Well those are my suggestions. I love the flavor and distinction of Bladesingers, have so ever since I created and played on in the old Baldur's Gate game. So I'm approaching this from a fan's perspective. But I also don't want to make the class the BEST at everything, which I'm afraid your version as-is currently does. |
Edited by - Diffan on 11 Jan 2015 18:21:16 |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 20:41:39
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Wanted to thank you guys for the feedback. It was great.
I have made some changes to the bladesinger. Here is the new link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QS-6l5HDbX7-BuacHYLuUwvnKiUY2mH2v_XzJg2XKQY/edit?usp=sharing
To summarize:
1. Half-elves can now be bladesingers (grumble, grumble)- I would enforce roleplaying to allow this IMO.
2. Reduced the spell levels so he maxes out at 7th level spells. This also slowed down his spell progression.
3. Number of spells he can prepare cut from int + level to int + half level (rounded up) This reflects the fact that the bladesinger cannot store as many prepared spells as the wizard. He's busy practicing with his sword to focus entirely on spell memorization exercises.
4. Elven Dueling - because of the light armor issue, the bladesinger will focus on dex. All I did was allow use of longswords, the traditional elven weapon, as a finesse weapon when wielded one handed. If I don't do this anyone making this class would be to wielding a scimitar or rapier as dex is the focus stat of the class (with int as a second stat) This is not a strength based gish, the eldritch knight is.
5. Lost medium armor! That's right, he is now a light armor wearer
or no armor wearer.
6. Retooled the bladesong ability. Basically the Defensive Duelist feat + the Seize the Advantage feat from D&D next. Defensive Duelist requires a reaction, so it is good for evading one attack. It is now a core ability, kinda like fighters get extra feats plus action surges etc and no longer a feat.
7. Moved Elven mantle to 9th level and changed it to the D&D next feat Defensive Ward. Reduced it's effectiveness to only the bladesinger (cannot give it to another like the old feat). It now requires a reaction, forcing the bladesinger to choose between it or the bladesong Defensive Duelist Ability (I like tough choices in a class).
Song of Celerity - used the bard skald progression and left it at 6th level.
Spellblade - once again used the bard skald ability at level 14 and left it as is. The bard get's as many attacks as the bladesinger, and has this ability at 14...with 9th level spells, medium armor, and a shield. It'll be alright I promise.
Song of Fury - can now only return 5th level or lower spells per crit.
Thanks again all who provided feedback. (Got some on the wizzy boards as well). Feel free to adapt this class as you Grognards see fit.
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Edited by - Jeiroth on 14 Jan 2015 20:45:09 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 22:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
1. Half-elves can now be bladesingers (grumble, grumble)- I would enforce roleplaying to allow this IMO.
I think roleplaying is a pivotal part of the game, so yes I definitely agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
2. Reduced the spell levels so he maxes out at 7th level spells. This also slowed down his spell progression.
Much more reasonable IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
3. Number of spells he can prepare cut from int + level to int + half
level (rounded up) This reflects the fact that the bladesinger cannot store as many prepared spells as the wizard. He's busy practicing with his sword to focus entirely on spell memorization exercises.
Sounds good and flavorful.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
4. Elven Dueling - because of the light armor issue, the bladesinger will focus on dex. All I did was allow use of longswords, the traditional elven weapon, as a finesse weapon when wielded one handed. If I don't do this anyone making this class would be to wielding a scimitar or rapier as dex is the focus stat of the class (with int as a second stat) This is not a strength based gish, the eldritch knight is.
This is more of a personal hiccup that I have with Weapons being used by only Strength and Dexterity at the system-level more than the class feature itself.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
5. Lost medium armor! That's right, he is now a light armor wearer or no armor wearer.
I'm not entirely sure why? Is it because they benefit more from a high Dexterity and thus removes the use or need for medium armor?
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
6. Retooled the bladesong ability. Basically the Defensive Duelist feat + the Seize the Advantage feat from D&D next. Defensive Duelist requires a reaction, so it is good for evading one attack. It is now a core ability, kinda like fighters get extra feats plus action surges etc and no longer a feat.
MUCH better balanced against existing options of other classes. I like the idea that you have to think about what you want to do with your Reaction.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
7. Moved Elven mantle to 9th level and changed it to the D&D next feat Defensive Ward. Reduced it's effectiveness to only the bladesinger (cannot give it to another like the old feat). It now requires a reaction, forcing the bladesinger to choose between it or the bladesong Defensive Duelist Ability (I like tough choices in a class).
Much better.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
Song of Celerity - used the bard skald progression and left it at 6th level.
Seems appropriate if the Skald has it
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
Spellblade - once again used the bard skald ability at level 14 and left it as is. The bard get's as many attacks as the bladesinger, and has this ability at 14...with 9th level spells, medium armor, and a shield. It'll be alright I promise.
I haven't played to this level yet and no one in our group is a Bard so I don't have any 1st hand experience on how this compares to other classes like the Fighter, Rogue, or even Paladin / Ranger. From a glance, it looks like a SUPER amazing feature, just saying.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
Song of Fury - can now only return 5th level or lower spells per crit.
Looks good. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2015 : 10:07:59
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So I just got done writing up my version of the Bladesinger for 5E. It's not a full-class write up like Jieroth's, it's a sub-path of the Wizard called the School of Bladesong (Arcane Tradition). Here's my reasoning for a sub-path in lieu of a full-class writeup.
- A full class writeup needs significantly more substance in it's features and should follow the same method of other classes.
- A sub-path is easier to incorporate and easier to balance against similar features.
- Sub-paths don't rely on feats and features that aren't incorporated into the Basic, free-download version.
- Sub-paths add to the basics of the main class, putting the heavy lifting mechanics-wise instead of the sub-path.
When I decided to convert the Bladesinger there were a myriad of possibilities available to use. Feats was one avenue to explore however I didn't want to put THAT much power into one singular thing that could be picked up in 1 level. There's just too much to convert that would make such a feat almost an ALWAYS choose option (something I wanted to avoid). And like I said above, I wasn't a fan of re-creating an entire class with it's own mechanics and sub-paths that branched off of it. This left me with the sub-path. Question now was, which class to base it off of.
At first I was going to use the Bard. Song, Singing, Art, Dance, etc. are all tenets of the Bladesinger and it made sense from that perspective to just take some features there. But when you look at the College of Valor, it pretty much does this already. Then there's the Fighter and it has HOST of features that make it excel at combat, but they already have the Eldritch Knight. What I wanted to do is make the Bladesinger distinct because I could already just reflavor either of those two as "bladesinger" and it would generally work. Then I came across the Wizard and it's Arcane Traditions. The wizard here isn't build for melee combat at all (no proficiency in armor, weapons, d6 Hit Die, etc.) but that sort of plays into the Bladesinger idea, that he's not a stand-n-fight soldier. He uses quick strikes, spells, and maneuverability in combat and doesn't want to be around when the bad-guy starts swinging. So a d6 HD isn't all that bad of a thing IMO. Further, high-elves pride themselves on arcane might and power that's derived from Intelligence. Unlike the Bard (who's Charisma-based), a Wizard has spells and studies his books to gain the arcane might, something I felt was more in-tune with what a Bladesinger would also do. Now the wizard does cast 9th level spells and like I told Jeiroth, most Bladesingers don't cast really high level spells. Unfortunately there's no real easy way to eliminate 7th thru 9th level spells the Wizard has access to in lieu of another feature, so we're sort of stuck with these spells as a class feature.
So without further ado, here's my version of the Bladesinger as an Arcane Tradition:
SCHOOL OF BLADESONG
Elves, since they’ve learned the ancient Art of magic, have been blending its effects alongside the use of swords and other martial ways. This art-form is collectively known as Bladesinging or Bladesong. The use of this style is unique among the elves and is highly cherished, and kept secretive, to only those of their blood-lines. In more recent times, as the elven nations fell and their presence in the world reduced, they have started training those with only half-blood this ancient art-form. However this attitude isn’t shared by all elves and many believe such teachings to those who are “tainted” has in itself tainted the practice.
Prerequisite: If one wishes to learn the art of Bladesong they must be an Elf (high or wood) or Half-elven and find an instructor who’s willing to teach them the way.
MARTIAL ABILITY
Beginning when you select this school at 2nd level, you gain proficiency with light armor and the Performance skill. Additionally you can treat longswords as a finesse weapon.
BLADESONG STYLE
Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you gain a +2 shield bonus to your armor class so long as you are wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand and nothing in the other and are wearing light or no armor. If you don medium or heavier armor, wield something in your off-hand, or are unconscious you lose the benefits of Bladesong.
SONG OF CELERITY
Beginning at 6th level, when you use your action to make a weapon-based attack, you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action.
SPELLSONG
Starting at 10th level, you have advantage on Constitution-based checks when maintaining your concentration.
SONG OF FURY
Starting at 14th level, whenever you cast any 1st though 5th level spell you may also make a weapon-based attack. This ability uses your Bonus Action. |
Edited by - Diffan on 11 Feb 2015 02:15:50 |
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Homebrew Bladesinger Class
