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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 18:35:09
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My character has been fawning over an Aranea girl(I posted about this before) we picked up on the Rock of Bral we joked was a lost princess(giving her the name Deja in reference to the Princess of Mars). Now we've found out she's an actual princess, and a bunch of stuff has happened that actually gives them a lot to talk about together, so I have proposed the idea of them getting together by ways of a side fic(I write these a lot to throw ideas at the GM).
I'm trying to figure out what my character would actually be, as instances of queer royalty tend to be more or less erased from history due to heteronormativity and unreliable records.
Princess Consort, or Queen Consort would seem to work. She's also a courtesan by trade - so I guess she's now a Courtesan with a capital C like Madame Du Pompadour.
She's actually from a kingdom of some other Planescapey world we haven't defined yet, but it's going to be influenced by Calimshan/Al Qadim and probably Athas(due to the similarities to Barsoom) maybe with bits of Maztica, if not a displaced version of one of those outright. It's ruled by a family of Aranea and one of our epic quests is going to be helping restore her to the throne and fight the usurpers.
It's kind of important to me that they end up together and I think it could be an awesome story but I can tell the GM has been a bit nervous of letting them hook up because of this, so basically I'm looking for the best way to sell it and minimise the awkwardness.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 18:41:07
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| ugh i now immediately regret this topic line |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 19:30:53
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You should be able to edit Subject, by edit of the OP.
As to your princess, the Realms Heralds will or will not certify that status. The being a princess in and of it self does not matter. Princess of Waterdeep or Cairo only means somewhere in the past parents where rulers. The land ruled might not longer exist or even if does the right of succession is so far away that the princess receives only title rights. Those closer to rule might receive funds or retainers because of blood claim on the realm.
Title would be Princess of <foo> (The name of realm claim is based on.)
Becoming a Consort could result in expanded title or only the most important title commonly.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 20:18:53
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Well, Aranea are matriarchal, although if you are close to canon, the princess will probably give birth to large part of community(if though eggs). Although you may have the Aranea kingdom that Deja comes from, have a society inspired by drow, and human customs, were the Queen is just the hereditary ruler.
Monarchs, in are usuallly rather expect to have children to continue the line, so she may have to pick a male, to procreate once. Although some gender-bending magic, for one occasion, may be a solution for this, Elminster knows the spell, as he was once turned into a woman by Mystra, and he used this on Edwin in Baldur's Gate II.
Also, a historical example I found on Tv Tropes:
quote:
The famous female Crow Chief, Woman Chief (born Pine Leaf of the Gros Ventre and abducted by a Crow raiding party as a child), got children with one of her four wives through surrogate fatherhood. According to their culture, the first one who sleeps with a woman who gets pregnant is officially the father. Using this, Woman Chief went through the preliminary motions and got a male volunteer to take over for the rest.
So you could have the Aranea have similar customs.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 23:58:38
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The Aranea family are essentially mutants and have enhanced shapeshifting. We actually discussed whether or not it would be possible for them to have a child before, alį the original story for Mystique and Rogue/Nightcrawler in X-men before the comics code struck against it.
There's also adoption. I guess Monarchy is a sucky system in general, though as figureheads or a family of trained defenders etc. it's good in a fantasy setting.
The Kingdom is at least somewhat middle eastern/north africa inspired - presumably due to Aranea originating in Calimshan but I'm using a lot of Al-Qadim(and in turn real life Islamic) influences while helping the GM build the world(see the other thread I made).
I think my character might be okay being an official Mistress since she was always meant to be a bit Madame Du Pompadour.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 07:23:46
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Indeed, they look very cute together.
As for the child from two mother, like Kurt's original origin, I think there should be a spell for this somewhere(if not offficialy, then logicaly, seeing how much more implausauble things can magic do). |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 09:05:04
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When it comes to "heteronormativity" and royalty, you might be surprised. It's probably much more complex than you might be thinking, not just because of gender but because of that culture's laws about legal pedigree, bloodlines, and inheritance of power and wealth. It also sounds like you might be working with a variant of the Aranea (you mentioned "mutant" and Planescape) that is humanoid rather than a different race that can mimic humans. First, I think you have to ask whether or not children are a possibility, if such children would be considered eligible for inheritance of title and power, and how the nobles around the royal family would react. Oh, and just an aside, adopted children aren't ever considered for the line of succession - no noble cousin with a distant but true bloodline claim to succession would ever accept an adopted child as valid for the throne.
If you become partners formally (assuming the nobility would even allow this with an off-worlder) but you cannot have children, the likely scenario is that the princess would be officially skipped over in the line of succession and the partner would never have a title. If you can have children, would they be recognized by the nobles as valid in the line of succession? If so, "Consort" is likely the highest title the partner would ever receive unless the nobles choose you as "Regent" if the princess dies and your children are next in succession. Royal titles are more about limits than they are about one's authority. Even then, it could be a legal fight with others in the royal family (bloodlines might improve their claim of regency). Where nobles and politics are concerned, you'd never be considered an equal to the princess. Unless their society is VERY different politically and socially, power and the rights of inheritance are the big questions.
In terms of being in the Realms, the High Heralds and various nation-rulers aren't going to care that much and probably won't treat either of you with any special deference or honors. Most Realms nations might treat the princess as an esteemed guest (if they know her title) in order to assess her as a representative of her government. If she's not there in that capacity, as a potential ally, enemy, or trading partner, it's very unlikely that someone from another world will be treated with any special deference at all.
Think politics first, then think about gender issues. The latter might or might not be important in the princess's society, but the former will definitely be the foremost issue you need to determine.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Jan 2015 09:17:25 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 18:06:33
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The Aranea in our setting are the Aranea that originated in Calimshan(as far as I'm aware) that ended up displaced there along with a bunch of other odd species. The world is basically a less decadent version of Athas, it's multicultural but largely based on Calimshan/Zakharan society so real world middle east/muslim countries during the middle ages & renaissance, but mixed in with the general Realms culture of other people that ended up displaced there(like Mazticans, and presumably those form Faerūn who got displaced in the spellplague). We're using 4E and going be using Dark Sun related stuff to run it most likely(my character has the Avangion epic destiny).
I should mention that my character is currently the High Herald/Mirror Mask of Neverwinter but is looking to offset it. I think most likely our characters are going to end up having somewhat separate paths, but will be at the level where Planar Transport isn't a big deal.
I think she's okay just with being a Consort/Courtesan though. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 20 Jan 2015 18:11:53 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 19:20:15
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Not to seem contrary, but I'm curious. Neverwinter is just a city, and a rather damaged and reduced one at that. What justified the creation of a new High Herald office, and why focus it on the Neverwinter region? Again, not asking to be contrary, but it seems odd.
Typically, High Heralds are responsible for rather large and populated regions. And they aren't adventurers - you'd be very, very busy indeed with not just heraldry activities but coordinating various investigations, networking, arranging deals to promote stability, and so on. If you're planning on plane-hopping to solve an offworld problem, you wouldn't be able to keep doing the job of a High Herald, unless it's a very unusual position with minimum responsibilities (but then, why create the office?). You're also very tied to the "courtesan" thing, which seems rather at odds with what High Heralds (or even lessers) in that organization do. What do you do in that position?
"Mirror Mask" also makes me think of N. Gaiman. Is this a really divergent hybrid game? Just wondering.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Jan 2015 19:24:56 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 21:39:39
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We're playing the 4E Neverwinter campaign, and yes, Neverwinter has elevated importance(in the campaign but moreso in our GM World, since we're been at the game for so long and likely will for longer). As far as I know she's High Herald for that region of the Realms - including Port Llast, etc. Neverwinter still being rebuilt has meant less use for the Herald but it's still sucked up a lot of the time, to the degree where she had to let the Artifact seperate from her and operate as Herald on it's own for a day(and retreat to a pocket of the Feywild where time flows much slower to get some time off). The Mirror Mask Artifact also seems to be very old.
I think the Mirrormask was an item from a previous edition of D&D. I've seen it mentioned somewhere, though our version has different properties.
Just googling I found it -
http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=4104
It basically has those properties, but also allows the wearer to work as High Herald, and disguises them. And I think it has a "gaze attack" too. It's a super artifact version of it I guess.
Also are you really asking what a courtesan does in a particular position? :) You sort of walked into that one. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 20 Jan 2015 21:42:25 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 21:55:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
We're playing the 4E Neverwinter campaign, and yes, Neverwinter has elevated importance(in the campaign but moreso in our GM World, since we're been at the game for so long and likely will for longer). As far as I know she's High Herald for that region of the Realms - including Port Llast, etc. Neverwinter still being rebuilt has meant less use for the Herald but it's still sucked up a lot of the time, to the degree where she had to let the Artifact seperate from her and operate as Herald on it's own for a day(and retreat to a pocket of the Feywild where time flows much slower to get some time off). The Mirror Mask Artifact also seems to be very old.
I think the Mirrormask was an item from a previous edition of D&D. I've seen it mentioned somewhere, though our version has different properties.
Just googling I found it -
http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=4104
It basically has those properties, but also allows the wearer to work as High Herald, and disguises them. And I think it has a "gaze attack" too. It's a super artifact version of it I guess.
Also are you really asking what a courtesan does in a particular position? :) You sort of walked into that one.
I see. Interesting.
And no, I wasn't asking what courtesans do. If it was unclear, I was asking what your duties were in your position of High Herald of Neverwinter.
Heralds, and High Heralds in particular, must be impartial, neutral, and above all considered trustworthy by nobles and royalty who are often at odds with each other. Considering that a courtesan hears all sorts of things and typically aren't considered trustworthy (because they're bought and paid for by the highest coin offered), it's very difficult to understand how you could be both.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 22:11:34
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I see the confusion, but I can clear it up pretty easily. The Mirror Mask and Eleonora Prismriver/Madama L'Aurore are two different people, officially. The Mirror Mask is also essentially it's own personality, and when I'm roleplaying the Mirror Mask it's effectively a compound/gestalt entity. Her skills as a bard/courtesan actually make her a prime candidate, being skilled in diplomacy and used to dealing with nobles. The Mask basically makes it so 1) She can't lie about officially matters that involve Neverwinter and surrounding areas, 2) Her personality is a lot more moderate, and far more impartial. One of the things Courtesans often know how to do is act, being patrons of the arts, so that helps too.
Hope this makes sense now. Our campaign is a bit complicated and does have a lot of silly nerd references to other things, but this pretty much evolved from Realms Lore and became it's own thing. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 20 Jan 2015 22:11:53 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2015 : 17:39:53
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Your topic and description immediately reminded me of a trilogy I've read, authored by J.F. Rivkin:
Silverglass
Web of Wind
Witch of Rhostshyl
Rivkin treats this, as most situations in the stories, as really no big deal, and thus it comes away as natural and in no way 'agenda-driven' (which is not always the case, even in many fantasy tales). I confess to have unashamedly stolen more than one idea from these books. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2015 : 23:52:22
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I'm okay with agenda driving in principle as it's a bad idea to keep skipping over the fact that these are real issues in the real world but it doesn't make for the best story a lot of the time. Working out how to strike a balance - luckily, with these characters the main issue is probably the interspecies element, so the same gender thing can be put to one side. But still a lot of technicalities to work out.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 00:35:09
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Checking out those books now - seem pretty interesting. Different to Ellie's situation as she's a mage rather than a fighty type. She does kind of wish she could be a knight of some description now so she could do that whole thing.
Also, from what I've reading at least in Silverglass it seems like the lesbianism is more window dressing and they have male love interests. Are there canon queer couples later on? |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 07:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Checking out those books now - seem pretty interesting. Different to Ellie's situation as she's a mage rather than a fighty type. She does kind of wish she could be a knight of some description now so she could do that whole thing.
Also, from what I've reading at least in Silverglass it seems like the lesbianism is more window dressing and they have male love interests. Are there canon queer couples later on?
Yes. In the last book, though it's 'planning stage' on the part of the characters in question. There aren't any 'intense' scenes, but the issue is addressed (though nowhere near the...ah...thoroughness of a Jaqueline Carey novel), in addition to another one, in just a few words, that we've been having a rather heated debate about in the good ol' USA. I'll leave it at that, as scrolls aren't meant to delve deeply into RW stuff.
Agenda driving in principle is fine, as long as it stays in context of the place in question (for example, the situation you laid out, which is seemingly in a wholly Realms context). I have had more than one game ruined (even if I was just a witness to the meltdown) by people who used real-world issues to essentially spoil it for all present. I've abruptly shut down more than one game when that's happened, though not in the last couple of decades, fortunately.
- OMH |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2015 : 05:22:16
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| hmm if i have to wait the whole serie before they sort of get together i might throw it on the pile :( |
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Two Princesses/Queens; how to pull it off?
